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Hello all.

I just got informed that there was a recent interview with Nikita Buyanov on a youtube video in the Russian speaking forum. It is not available in english yet but a friend who speaks russian told me it was mentioned that the M16A4 is coming alongside with a Glock Handgun. Don't know when but to hear that BSG is working on it is great news. If somebody has translated the video or knows a english subtitled version of the video please let me know. But for now my toughts on that: I can't wait to hold the m16a4 in hands since it is the opponent AR Rifle to the AKM or the older AK47. When it comes to Glock i hope it is the Glock 41 with .45 ACP Rounds. I was hoping to see the .45ACP Colt M1911 commando or similar first, but i am fine with Glock. Since it comes in versions with burst or full-auto modes. To give you all an better look about the Glock, i have a nice video here from my Shooting Sports Colleague and Gunny-Legend Jerry Miculek:

I'm a fan of miculek and recommend his other videos.

Spoiler




 

 




Regarding the Topic and the Video where Nikita Buyanov is talking about developement and what comes up in Beta visit this topic:

Would love to see your thoughts on this, and if somebody has a translated or english subtitled video of this Nikita talk any information would be highly appreciated.

best regards, MKev

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This is really interesting information. Let me move this to the Weapons Department where it can get more constructive feedback from Weapon Savvy Escapers!

#Moved to Appropriate Section

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There's really no reason to use .45 ACP over 9mm these days as honestly It's an outdated concept for a cartridge design.

9mm is far more common worldwide (.45 ACP is really rare outside the US) and performs just as well with hollow points while having many other advantages.

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26 minutes ago, KhandE said:

There's really no reason to use .45 ACP over 9mm these days as honestly It's an outdated concept for a cartridge design.

9mm is far more common worldwide (.45 ACP is really rare outside the US) and performs just as well with hollow points while having many other advantages.

 I agree- Personally, I'd much prefer a Glock 19. 

That said, if you really want a .45 caliber Glock, the .45 GAP is actually just as powerful as the .45 ACP, with smaller cartridge dimensions. A modernized .45 ACP, basically. It boggles my mind why it hasn't caught on with the .45 fans. 

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17 minutes ago, Keter said:

 I agree- Personally, I'd much prefer a Glock 19. 

That said, if you really want a .45 caliber Glock, the .45 GAP is actually just as powerful as the .45 ACP, with smaller cartridge dimensions. A modernized .45 ACP, basically. It boggles my mind why it hasn't caught on with the .45 fans. 

.45 GAP is better in almost every way yes, but it was a new cartridge that didn't really get any federal LEO or military use so it didn't really catch on.

 

.357 SIG is an example of one that did (even though it's popularity is declining) because it's literally just a necked down, higher pressure .40 S&W, which at the time was all the rage because it became the FBI's new standard (who ironically just went back to 9mm), and the dimensions meant you only had to change the barrel in many models of .40 S&W pistols to use it as it could use the same frames and magazines even. And it eventually just caught on in it's own right.

Basically, It's really hard for a new pistol caliber, (or, any caliber for that matter) these days to get a well established foothold in the market.

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15 minutes ago, Strokovich said:

They should add the Glock 20 in 10mm instead.

10mm is even rarer outside the US and kicks annoyingly hard in a standard sized polymer framed semi auto unless you're using light loads that are basically .40 S&W.

 

Edited by KhandE
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9 minutes ago, KhandE said:

10mm is even rarer outside the US and kicks annoyingly hard in a standard sized polymer framed semi auto unless you're using light loads that are basically .40 S&W.

 

Sure, but I still want one with some Underwood style loads.

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vor einer Stunde schrieb KhandE:

There's really no reason to use .45 ACP over 9mm these days as honestly It's an outdated concept for a cartridge design.

9mm is far more common worldwide (.45 ACP is really rare outside the US) and performs just as well with hollow points while having many other advantages.

Officials like Police have switched to 9x19mm thats true. But since then they have a lot more shots to put out in order to stop a criminal. In US and Europe the .45ACP is still used in special forces with weapons like SOCOM Mk.23, P12 and USP by Heckler & Koch, Colt M1911a1 commando or performance and many more for example. The .45 acp has a higher stopping power than 9x19.

Edited by MKev
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1 hour ago, MKev said:

Officials like Police have switched to 9x19mm thats true. But since then they have a lot more shots to put out in order to stop a criminal. In US and Europe the .45ACP is still used in special forces with weapons like SOCOM Mk.23, P12 and USP by Heckler & Koch, Colt M1911a1 commando or performance and many more for example. The .45 acp has a higher stopping power than 9x19.

I'll personally take a 9MM any day the week over a .45 ACP, and I've owned both. I can make 5 well placed shots with a 9MM versus 2 with a .45 ACP just from the recoil alone. Put in modern ammunition, and the results in fatality rates are negligible. "Stopping power" is such an open-ended argument these days because there's a LOT to consider. Bigger does not necessarily mean better. I regularly carry a Steyr S9A1 loaded with hollow-points. If you get hit with one (let alone several), you're NOT getting back up.

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vor 6 Stunden schrieb DeltaElite121:

I'll personally take a 9MM any day the week over a .45 ACP, and I've owned both. I can make 5 well placed shots with a 9MM versus 2 with a .45 ACP just from the recoil alone. Put in modern ammunition, and the results in fatality rates are negligible. "Stopping power" is such an open-ended argument these days because there's a LOT to consider. Bigger does not necessarily mean better. I regularly carry a Steyr S9A1 loaded with hollow-points. If you get hit with one (let alone several), you're NOT getting back up.

Good Argument. But put in mind that this first person combat simulator needs more variation. We need a bigger pool to choose from. .45acp,.40,.357,.50, and so forth. Upcoming Revolvers like magnum and rhino are confirmed already. 

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Personally in regards to Glocks I hope they don't add EVERY variant of the Glock, I know there intention is to try and add 100+ weapons but lets maybe keep it simple. For example:

Glock 17 and 19 would be in my opinion the hall-mark for Glocks, both would share a similar performance to the current 9x19mm pistols both being 15 and 17 round respectively. Possibly could feature a "rare" variant such as the Glock 17L or 34.

For other calibers I could see at most the Glock 21 in .45 ACP and the Glock 22 and 23 in .40S&W.

I'm kind of indifferent about having the addition of the M16A4 as I was indifferent about the M4A1. However one thing I do share with both the 9x19mm and the 5,56x45mm is the simple fact that they'd need to improve the ammunition selection because currently 9x18mm firearms are superior than the 9x19mm firearms currently simply because of the better ammunition selection.

 

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I currently own 9MM and .45 ACP. And I will take the .45 ACP everyday. It is harder hitting and the comments on shot placement because of recoil is a training issue. I can dump 13 rounds of .45 ACP at the standard 21 feet for CCW classes within a three inche group. At range, I can hit targets easily and accurately. And I am no PMC.

Edited by TitanPB
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11 hours ago, KhandE said:

There's really no reason to use .45 ACP over 9mm these days as honestly It's an outdated concept for a cartridge design.

9mm is far more common worldwide (.45 ACP is really rare outside the US) and performs just as well with hollow points while having many other advantages.

Really rare how? MANY shooters shoot .45 ACP handguns (usually 1911 designs) here in Norway and also Sweden.

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On 8/19/2017 at 1:33 AM, MKev said:

Officials like Police have switched to 9x19mm thats true. But since then they have a lot more shots to put out in order to stop a criminal. In US and Europe the .45ACP is still used in special forces with weapons like SOCOM Mk.23, P12 and USP by Heckler & Koch, Colt M1911a1 commando or performance and many more for example. The .45 acp has a higher stopping power than 9x19.

Question: Do you actually know of any special forces units that use the MK 23 or any variant of the 1911? I ask, because the MK 23, while being an amazingly sturdy and reliable gun, was just too damn heavy for usage by SOCOM, and I could only imagine that any other special forces unit with some sense would come to the same conclusion. 

When it comes to the 1911, it's no longer in usage by the Marine Corps or SOCOM for very good reason. The steel frame cracks under the pressure of +P loads, it's a single stack magazine in a world of double stacks, and it's a design from more than a hundred years ago. While the 1911 was doubtlessly among, if not the best handgun of it's time, it's time is long past. Just like I wouldn't drive a car from 1911 or have a military force use one, I wouldn't use or have a military force use the 1911. 

On 8/19/2017 at 2:52 AM, DeltaElite121 said:

I'll personally take a 9MM any day the week over a .45 ACP, and I've owned both. I can make 5 well placed shots with a 9MM versus 2 with a .45 ACP just from the recoil alone. Put in modern ammunition, and the results in fatality rates are negligible. "Stopping power" is such an open-ended argument these days because there's a LOT to consider. Bigger does not necessarily mean better. I regularly carry a Steyr S9A1 loaded with hollow-points. If you get hit with one (let alone several), you're NOT getting back up.

This is entirely correct, for a few reasons. . . 

17 hours ago, TitanPB said:

I currently own 9MM and .45 ACP. And I will take the .45 ACP everyday. It is harder hitting and the comments on shot placement because of recoil is a training issue. I can dump 13 rounds of .45 ACP at the standard 21 feet for CCW classes within a three inche group. At range, I can hit targets easily and accurately. And I am no PMC.

Back in the days that 9x19 and .45 ACP were designed, when bullet design was basically "Make this chunk of lead in this shape," and magazine designs were pretty much all single stacks, it would have been entirely accurate to say that the .45 ACP had a distinct and noticeable advantage over the 9mm. The differences in magazine capacity were negligible, the difference in power relatively noticeable. . . The match up was closer. 

In today's world, however, bullet design has advanced to the point that, regardless of what pistol caliber you choose, they're all basically going to be doing about the same amount of damage. You'll be able to notice the difference, but it'll be minimal between calibers. . . Mostly because pistol calibers just don't confer enough energy for it to be overly noticeable when there are differences. 

Rifles have enough power to send shock throughout the entire body, destroying and disabling organs and tissue that are far off from where the bullet actually impacts, especially when the bullet is designed properly. For pistols, while you can get larger areas of affect with larger bullets, and while bullet design can make them far more deadly than traditional loads used to be, for the most part, you're not going to be seeing significant amounts of damage half a foot away from where your bullet traveled through the target. 

This means, in other words, that the only real reliable way to take down a target with a pistol is a lot of shots. If the target would be taken down in one shot, it would be taken down in one shot from a .22 or a .45. And if it would have taken more shots with one caliber, in most situations, it would take more shots with other calibers. 

Combine this with the fact that without military level training and actual combat experience, in a high stress situation you'll still be likely to miss some of the shots you take. . . 

And, well, I'd personally take the lower recoil, higher capacity, higher velocity round that I can send more of down range in a period of time than one that I'd have to compensate for more in a high stress situation and one that I don't have as many of loaded in the magazine. 

I mean, hey, you're free to disagree, but that's the logic behind my own preference. 

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true true. the mark 23 is a heavy gun and 1911 is old. but 1911 is out as combat and performance edition with 2 line magazine up to 21 rounds, picatiny rails and implemented muzzlebrake. and the mark 23 is changed with P12. I have us family in active duty and know that marines use 1911 9mm edition, .45acp edition as commando, baretta, and even the glock is not rare. In our german army we use P8 and GSG9, KSK and other SOF have p12 (.45acp) the good thing on p12 is, its lighter, good recoil control and reliability. Me for my part, i dont care what somebody prefers. I would love to have the decision including pro's & con's in EFT with all used calibers by goverment units around the world. I want to decide if i have higher penetration with more recoil or less penetration with low recoil. and there are no 9x19 bullets holopoint or +P bullets that beat .45acp holopoint and +P bullets. .45acp has more speed, higher impact and bigger size.

regards

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1 hour ago, MKev said:

true true. the mark 23 is a heavy gun and 1911 is old. but 1911 is out as combat and performance edition with 2 line magazine up to 21 rounds, picatiny rails and implemented muzzlebrake. and the mark 23 is changed with P12. I have us family in active duty and know that marines use 1911 9mm edition, .45acp edition as commando, baretta, and even the glock is not rare. In our german army we use P8 and GSG9, KSK and other SOF have p12 (.45acp) the good thing on p12 is, its lighter, good recoil control and reliability. Me for my part, i dont care what somebody prefers. I would love to have the decision including pro's & con's in EFT with all used calibers by goverment units around the world. I want to decide if i have higher penetration with more recoil or less penetration with low recoil. and there are no 9x19 bullets holopoint or +P bullets that beat .45acp holopoint and +P bullets. .45acp has more speed, higher impact and bigger size.

regards

Just to mention it. . . What cartridge "beats" another depends on what you're trying to accomplish. Regardless of that, the .45 ACP is a rather slow moving bullet- Most conventional loadings are subsonic. The 9mm is in essentially all loads supersonic- Which means that yes, it does generally move faster and have higher penetration than the .45 ACP.

That said, the .45 ACP is a significantly larger bullet, so you're right in that regards, but I just wanted to make sure you were aware that it's a large, but rather relatively slow bullet. 

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Glock 17 is the confirmed Glock. So it is a 9mm. another 9mm. I hope for more variation when the revolvers arrive like rhino.

 

regards

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13 hours ago, Keter said:

 

I mean, hey, you're free to disagree, but that's the logic behind my own preference. 

Except that a bigger round will always do more damage. The recoil in a .45 ACP is negligible, the mag capacity difference is usually four rounds or less, and people handle stress differently, then you might be right.

Take the same designed rounds in both calibers and the .45 ACP will do more damage. Why? It is a larger round, moving slower in most cases, and causes more trauma. Physics. Recoil is not large and a null point with proper training.

And higher velocity to me is not a good thing, over penetration. I want my rounds to hit target and take their time going through, or not going through at all. 

And saying it would have taken just as many shots with one caliber as the next is wrong, period. Shot placement is important, but again, a larger foreign object entering your body is going to do more damage than a smaller one. Giving more room for error in shot placement. A .22 will never create as much trauma as a .45 of the same design. Speaking in pistol calibers here.

And some rifle loads, 5.56, are basically ineffective at certain ranges and rifle barrel lengths. Anything 20 inches or less usually.  And a pistol caliber round would out perform the rifle rounds in shorter barrels or close range.

And as far as training, I think that is also largely dependent on the person. In a combat or high stress environment, I assure you. I personally will have no trouble. As I don't let little things get to me. But most people would. I agree, without training.

Edited by TitanPB

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good interesting stuff guys, just a 2 things.

As mentioned earlier the .45 ACP usually travels subsonic so attaching a Suppressor on the fly works just fine. 

 

The thing about the H&K MK 23 is that it was designed to be an offensive Pistol, thats why it got that long ass barrel and it got its name not by coincident. It was specially designed for SOCOM needs, they asked the market for it , the US said good poo H&K i take it. like it happend a few times now .

 as far as i know, the MK23 was used and maybe is still used by seal teams and branches regarding SOCOM

Best Regards

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1. I bet you a million dollars (not really) that it'll be the Glock 17, assuming we only get one type of Glock.

2. I personally carry a Glock 30S .45 ACP 10+1 daily, but I have various 9mm and .45ACP handguns and have shots thousands of rounds of each caliber and the only real benefits of 9mm vs .45ACP for personal defense is the fact that generally speaking your typical 9mm pistol will hold more rounds and it is SLIGHTLY easier to make follow up shots, but make no mistake...the .45ACP is a man stopper.

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Keter said it best and I whole heartedly agree with his reasoning. 

But I hope and expect that the devs with surprise us with multiple calibers.  One of the beautiful things I've come to see in EFT is their attention to detail in the firearms and their related physics.  So if any game could properly implement and appreciate different calibers on the same platform essentially would be these guys. 

 

So to make the arguement on why we would need the different calibers would be the same reason we would need them IRL.

9mm, cheap, extremely effective in self defense loads and very controllable with a large round capacity. 

45 ACP. As far as ball rounds go, it's gonna be king. As stated above, when it comes to it 45 is a fat ass piece of 230gr lead to shove through flesh.  Being subsonic it would also be unbeatable suppressed. Hell at my range you'll hear the rounds hit the paper on a quiet day.  9mm and other rounds will have to be specifically loaded to achieve the same results audibly but with a drastic impact to terminal performance. 

10mm (or 40 S&W if you're a weirdo) are fantastic for barrier defeating, distance shots and really badass sub machine gun calibers.  But terrible to suppress and really rowdy to control compared to 9mm and even 45. 

I say 9mm is a safe way to start adding in these different pistols. Yeah it's "more 9mm great". But the bullet coding is in, it's more pistol selection (there's currently one 9x19 pistol anyway) and lays the groundwork for more calibers in the same family of pistol. 

 

Now just gotta hope for RMR mounted glocks to run around with 

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If they do add glock i hope they add all variants in a way they are doing the AK variants. Would be nice to have a pistol that can fire different calibres. Plus a glock 18c might be a nice addition. There are so many custom parts for glocks too so it will make a nice addition of a highly customisable pistol.

 

Quote

I say 9mm is a safe way to start adding in these different pistols. Yeah it's "more 9mm great". But the bullet coding is in, it's more pistol selection (there's currently one 9x19 pistol anyway) and lays the groundwork for more calibers in the same family of pistol. 

I have to say i agree with you. But it shouldn't be hard to add new calibres if the ballistics system is as well implemented as i think. Ideally you would put the weight of the round in, powder load etc and be able to simulate the rounds path whilst taking into consideration of the weapons barrel length and other factors. That's the way i do it. Shouldnt be too hard to put in other calibres.

Edited by jamoy1993

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