Blackb1rd

The interview with Nikita Buyanov

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On 22. 8. 2017 at 2:31 AM, Smooth_Void said:

Terragroup is just the tip of the iceberg...this is gonna get interesting.

 

I think it's going to be much more than just exciting. Who knows what's going to happen next.

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12 hours ago, logimen said:

In short.... coming soon = next 5 years. 

I think it does not have to be a negative tune. The range of the game is quite decent. Everything is endless hours of work and patience. So it is also good to show our patience.

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22 minutes ago, Miovann said:

I think it does not have to be a negative tune. The range of the game is quite decent. Everything is endless hours of work and patience. So it is also good to show our patience.

Dont waste your time arguing with negative ppl, you wont change their attitude by anything you say, just look at my comments in previous pages...

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35 minutes ago, FurryAlot said:

this is not topic about karma

Except for the question specifically relating to karma, and the answers that directly spoke of karma, so yeah, the Q&A had karma mentioned and discussed in the transcript so I don't see why it wouldn't be up for debate. Yes, other things were said and there were other things in the Q&A such as the hideout, other projects like Contract Wars, weapons, technical hurdles, ect. Some good, some bad. Karma was just one of the topics and our disagreement just happens to have taken the primary focus in this conversation, that is all.

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24 minutes ago, TechoverMana said:

Except for the question specifically relating to karma, and the answers that directly spoke of karma, so yeah, the Q&A had karma mentioned and discussed in the transcript so I don't see why it wouldn't be up for debate. Yes, other things were said and there were other things in the Q&A such as the hideout, other projects like Contract Wars, weapons, technical hurdles, ect. Some good, some bad. Karma was just one of the topics and our disagreement just happens to have taken the primary focus in this conversation, that is all.

Ok, im going to try something else.

How do you know karma is going to ruin this game?

 

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11 minutes ago, FurryAlot said:

How do you know karma is going to ruin this game?

Because a karma system will reduce the amount of threats players need to keep track of and consider in their strategy, thus greatly reducing the amount of tension and suspense felt in gameplay and in gun fights, the karma system would be directly against lore for scavs explicitly and against PMC implicitly, it would lower the overall skill required by players since players would be assured backup and support without question, and wouldn't have to consider as many actions since they'd have people to work with who can help make up for a lack of skill or ability and remove any pressure on themselves. It kills any form of emergent gameplay, and smothers out any playstyle that does not adhere to it. It gives the game less variety and surprise, it makes the game overall less dynamic in its flow. It makes the game less socially engaging since you would no longer need to seek out others for groups and be made to have play dates instead of genuine teams and groups who operate together because they wish to. It's not realistic in the least, and therefore goes directly against several of the stated goals and ideals of the game, such as from the 2016 Dev Report of a game with 'uncompromising realism' and "maximum immersion" both of which are incompatible with a karma system.

On this, which would naturally arise with the karma system, I think a karma system would be a great harm to the game, in fact, far more harmful than any 'problems' the karma system is proposed to resolve.

Edited by TechoverMana
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10 minutes ago, TechoverMana said:

Because a karma system will reduce the amount of threats players need to keep track of and consider in their strategy, thus greatly reducing the amount of tension and suspense felt in gameplay and in gun fights, the karma system would be directly against lore for scavs explicitly and against PMC implicitly, it would lower the overall skill required by players since players would be assured backup and support without question, and wouldn't have to consider as many actions since they'd have people to work with who can help make up for a lack of skill or ability and remove any pressure on themselves. It kills any form of emergent gameplay, and smothers out any playstyle that does not adhere to it. It gives the game less variety and surprise, it makes the game overall less dynamic in its flow. It makes the game less socially engaging since you would no longer need to seek out others for groups and be made to have play dates instead of genuine teams and groups who operate together because they wish to. It's not realistic in the least, and therefore goes directly against several of the stated goals and ideals of the game, such as from the 2016 Dev Report of a game with 'uncompromising realism' and "maximum immersion" both of which are incompatible with a karma system.

On this, which would naturally arise with the karma system, I think a karma system would be a great harm to the game, in fact, far more harmful than any 'problems' the karma system is proposed to resolve.

Now everything you just wrote are only assumptions . less threats? You think ppl would stop killing each orher on sight because of karma? Some yes, but ive seen plenty of ppl here on forums that said theyll not care about karma... How less variety and surprise? Less socially engaging? They want to make a game where you can socially  engage IN THE GAME so you dont need to go looking for help from the outside, life isnt fair you cant always have what you want, sometimes you will need to things you dont want to do, same in EFT. Less dynamic and flow? How why...and what is not realistic in the least? And in the end again and again, how do you know  karma is incompatible with immersion and realism? Just how do you know ? We dont know yet what karma will be like  in this game

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6 minutes ago, FurryAlot said:

You think ppl would stop killing each orher on sight because of karma?

Yes, that is one of the primary goals of the karma system. That is why people want it in there.

7 minutes ago, FurryAlot said:

How less variety and surprise?

There's less surprise and variety directly tied into less threats. You're making 1/3rd of the possible threats you can have disappear, thus there's less surprise and less enemy variety on sheer math. Only having to fight 2 enemies is less variety than 3.

8 minutes ago, FurryAlot said:

hey want to make a game where you can socially  engage IN THE GAME

In-game VOIP accomplishes this, not a karma system.

8 minutes ago, FurryAlot said:

so you dont need to go looking for help from the outside

AKA, so you don't need to be social.

9 minutes ago, FurryAlot said:

how do you know  karma is incompatible with immersion and realism?

Because real life doesn't work on karma, fate, ect. Bad guys get away with things all the time. Good people have bad things happen to them and theirs no justice for them. The universe isn't just or fair, it isn't looking to make sure that bad guys get their comeuppance, which is the entire goal of a karma system and pretending it is not is again, is being completely disingenuous on your part. Trying to sit there and call karma or ascribe any other metaphysical motivations to the natural real world is not realistic, any more than having a character with an angel and demon on their shoulders.

16 minutes ago, FurryAlot said:

Just how do you know ?

Because I can look at the world and see that there isn't some all knowing karma system at work that makes sure every bad person gets what's coming to them without fail and without question. In fact, the opposite is often true, good and even great things happen to terrible people, there isn't any more or less likelihood of sickness for the wicked, guns don't jam up for terrorists, and murderers, criminals and warlords can live their entire lives in luxury while honest innocent people are left in poverty and sickness, ect. There isn't anything like it, and so, why would something that doesn't exist in real life somehow be realistic? 

Karma refers to the spiritual concept of cause and effect where intent and actions of an individual influence the future of that individual. Good intent and deeds contribute to good karma and future happiness, while bad intent and deeds contribute to bad karma and future suffering. This concept although appealing, has absolutely no basis in reality, and thus, in short, not realistic, at all.

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43 minutes ago, TechoverMana said:

Yes, that is one of the primary goals of the karma system. That is why people want it in there.

There's less surprise and variety directly tied into less threats. You're making 1/3rd of the possible threats you can have disappear, thus there's less surprise and less enemy variety on sheer math. Only having to fight 2 enemies is less variety than 3.

In-game VOIP accomplishes this, not a karma system.

AKA, so you don't need to be social.

Because real life doesn't work on karma, fate, ect. Bad guys get away with things all the time. Good people have bad things happen to them and theirs no justice for them. The universe isn't just or fair, it isn't looking to make sure that bad guys get their comeuppance, which is the entire goal of a karma system and pretending it is not is again, is being completely disingenuous on your part. Trying to sit there and call karma or ascribe any other metaphysical motivations to the natural real world is not realistic, any more than having a character with an angel and demon on their shoulders.

Because I can look at the world and see that there isn't some all knowing karma system at work that makes sure every bad person gets what's coming to them without fail and without question. In fact, the opposite is often true, good and even great things happen to terrible people, there isn't any more or less likelihood of sickness for the wicked, guns don't jam up for terrorists, and murderers, criminals and warlords can live their entire lives in luxury while honest innocent people are left in poverty and sickness, ect. There isn't anything like it, and so, why would something that doesn't exist in real life somehow be realistic? 

Karma refers to the spiritual concept of cause and effect where intent and actions of an individual influence the future of that individual. Good intent and deeds contribute to good karma and future happiness, while bad intent and deeds contribute to bad karma and future suffering. This concept although appealing, has absolutely no basis in reality, and thus, in short, not realistic, at all.

All this is just your subjective opinion. This is not discussion about real life kocept of karma or god, many ppl believe in god and karma so for them its completly realistic so is for me as i believe in karma

We'll have to agree to disagree 

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5 minutes ago, FurryAlot said:

many ppl believe in god and karma so for them its completly realistic

Many people also believe in ghosts, aliens, homeopathy and the lizard people, so do you think it would be realistic for their introduction into Tarkov because it is for some people?

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4 minutes ago, TechoverMana said:

Many people also believe in ghosts, aliens, homeopathy and the lizard people, so do you think it would be realistic for their introduction into Tarkov because it is for some people?

So by your logic we should also get rid of respawning because its not realistic right?

Comparing god and karma to aliens and lizzard ppl is kinda... Lets just say that is a bad comparison as i dont want to offend you...

Edited by FurryAlot

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Just now, FurryAlot said:

So by your logic we should also get rid of respawning because its not realistic right?

Honestly, we could just have it where it's just not the same character from raid to raid. Character dies, doesn't respawn. PMC Mike Smith dies, next time you want to raid, you're John Lee, reset stats, ect, like how the Scavs work, where you're not playing the same scav. You can do it where your character dies forever and stay dead and then play at that point as a new character.
And I'd be perfectly OK with that. Up to me, I'd consider it for sure. I have no problem with the introduction of permadeath for a game vying for realism.
 

5 minutes ago, FurryAlot said:

Comparing god and karma to aliens and lizzard ppl is kinda... Lets just say that is a bad comparison as i dont want to offend you...

I don't wish to offend anyone either but if you're going to say something is realistic or not, you need more than just 'it is because I believe in it'. You need evidence of it, proof and data for it so that it could be codified and quantified to simulate it. So unless someone's got a mathematical proof for God and his wants and motivations, I fail to see why we should consider the influence of the supernatural here, let alone purposefully inject it in direct contrast to known reality.

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3 minutes ago, TechoverMana said:

Honestly, we could just have it where it's just not the same character from raid to raid. Character dies, doesn't respawn. PMC Mike Smith dies, next time you want to raid, you're John Lee, reset stats, ect, like how the Scavs work, where you're not playing the same scav. You can do it where your character dies forever and stay dead and then play at that point as a new character.
And I'd be perfectly OK with that. Up to me, I'd consider it for sure. I have no problem with the introduction of permadeath for a game vying for realism.
 

I don't wish to offend anyone either but if you're going to say something is realistic or not, you need more than just 'it is because I believe in it'. You need evidence of it, proof and data for it so that it could be codified and quantified to simulate it. So unless someone's got a mathematical proof for God and his wants and motivations, I fail to see why we should consider the influence of the supernatural here, let alone purposefully inject it in direct contrast to known reality.

Its a game not reality. If devs want karma , they will put it in , if they didnt want respawns they wouldnt put it in.  We are here to test what they throw at us and give feedback so they can change it accordingly so its not one big exploitable piece of crap mechanic. Maybe in the end they will call it "Reputation" and all your problems with karma are solved...

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1 minute ago, FurryAlot said:

Its a game not reality.

I know, seeing as how I'm not in a casket from all the gun fights I've lost.

Simulation, trying to get as close as possible without actually getting actual people to spill blood. It's a game, but its a game that's promising "uncompromising realism". That's been one of the defining things about this game for why people came to play it in the first place. The appeal wouldn't be what it was, it wouldn't have the community and interest it has if it wasn't advertising itself as an ultra-realistic and simulationist shooter.

Just now, FurryAlot said:

We are here to test what they throw at us and give feedback so they can change it accordingly

Well, I think I'm certainly giving some feedback towards the idea, and hopefully with others get them to change it accordingly.

14 minutes ago, FurryAlot said:

Maybe in the end they will call it "Reputation" and all your problems with karma are solved

A pile of crap by any other name would smell just as bad. It's almost worse to try to use a euphemism for this. At least if you truly believed in karma, it makes sense bad things would happen for bad actions. Now just people think of you poorly, whether true or false would cause supernatural payback? Might as well say people can put curses and hexes on you if they don't like you in the game.

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15 minutes ago, TechoverMana said:

I know, seeing as how I'm not in a casket from all the gun fights I've lost.

Simulation, trying to get as close as possible without actually getting actual people to spill blood. It's a game, but its a game that's promising "uncompromising realism". That's been one of the defining things about this game for why people came to play it in the first place. The appeal wouldn't be what it was, it wouldn't have the community and interest it has if it wasn't advertising itself as an ultra-realistic and simulationist shooter.

Well, I think I'm certainly giving some feedback towards the idea, and hopefully with others get them to change it accordingly.

A pile of crap by any other name would smell just as bad. It's almost worse to try to use a euphemism for this. At least if you truly believed in karma, it makes sense bad things would happen for bad actions. Now just people think of you poorly, whether true or false would cause supernatural payback? Might as well say people can put curses and hexes on you if they don't like you in the game.

I was  implying that they would change it to reputation due to the mechanics character which would not have supernatural consequences to your actions... 

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16 minutes ago, FurryAlot said:

I was  implying that they would change it to reputation due to the mechanics character which would not have supernatural consequences to your actions

And as we've discussed about a karma or reputation system, whatever people would want to call it, it would have to be supernatural, all knowing and all seeing to be able to delineate infractions on actions and award punishments the way it has been discussed, especially with Scav and PMC karma being linked.

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  • @TechoverMana: Hey, if we want the Astronaut to get to the moon, maybe we shouldn't launch the rocket into the ground? You know, it will probably just collide and break and the Astronaut will die. Just a heads up.
  • @FurryAlot: Nah man, that's just your subjective opinion. We will launch the rocket into the ground, deal with it.

This is exactly how this discussion looks right now. One guy brings up actual arguments and concerns about the upcoming system and the other one, being incapable of critical thought, needs to see a failure first before realizing it is one, so he tries to twist and turn the arguments instead of bringing up own ones. 

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19 hours ago, Satah said:
  • @TechoverMana: Hey, if we want the Astronaut to get to the moon, maybe we shouldn't launch the rocket into the ground? You know, it will probably just collide and break and the Astronaut will die. Just a heads up.
  • @FurryAlot: Nah man, that's just your subjective opinion. We will launch the rocket into the ground, deal with it.

This is exactly how this discussion looks right now. One guy brings up actual arguments and concerns about the upcoming system and the other one, being incapable of critical thought, needs to see a failure first before realizing it is one, so he tries to twist and turn the arguments instead of bringing up own ones. 

Hahah thats a good one xD

Its more like "oh poo its gonna be an electric car so it will be poo because all the other electric cars are poo and electric cars have automatic transmition and are much quieter so riding it is not going to be so exciting as a regular car and it will destroy your company if you make one so dont make electric cars..." and im like " nah man just wait untill they show us how its going to work  maybe its not going to be poo and they already decided to make an electric car so stop being so negative"

Edited by FurryAlot

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@FurryAlot:

At least you could look at an electric car, and when someone says "What will this solve and do?" you could say "Oh, it'll reduce gas usage and reduce pollution and CO2 and such, and work as well as a any other car."

If instead this electric car didn't work as a car, had square wheels, a windscreen you couldn't see through and barely moved, and on top of that, was radioactive and extremely unsafe for both driver and pedestrians, then your metaphor would work for the karma system, since it doesn't work for what the game is aiming to do in mechanics and tone, works directly against in game lore, and gives rise to more problems than it proposes to resolve.

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4 hours ago, TechoverMana said:

@FurryAlot:

At least you could look at an electric car, and when someone says "What will this solve and do?" you could say "Oh, it'll reduce gas usage and reduce pollution and CO2 and such, and work as well as a any other car."

If instead this electric car didn't work as a car, had square wheels, a windscreen you couldn't see through and barely moved, and on top of that, was radioactive and extremely unsafe for both driver and pedestrians, then your metaphor would work for the karma system, since it doesn't work for what the game is aiming to do in mechanics and tone, works directly against in game lore, and gives rise to more problems than it proposes to resolve.

But you dont  knoooooooow if its gonna have square wheels and all that, same as you dont know the game yet , what we are playing now is just barebones shooting looting and healing mechanics,  the game is not going to be about "bring as much stuff from raid as you can and kill everyone in it"...

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58 minutes ago, FurryAlot said:

But you dont  knoooooooow if its gonna have square wheels and all that, same as you dont know the game yet

If I saw the blueprint have square wheels, and they're talking about having square wheels, then I'd say its safe to assume they're planning on square wheels.
This metaphor is stretched to the limit.

 

1 hour ago, FurryAlot said:

what we are playing now is just barebones shooting looting and healing mechanics

I wouldn't say the game has bare-bones shooting, since they've taken care to have much more advanced ballistics and a gunplay that's rarely matched in other games, along with the gun modding and the influence on gun behavior. Penetration, ricochet, bullet drop, fragmentation, different types of ammo, combined ammo in the same magazine, ect. That's not bare bones, that's quite in depth. Bare-bones would be like hitscan with no further simulation of the round or differentiating between different guns and ammo. Healing also isn't bare-bones, even with the really fast heal times, since most games, like 99% are content with just a big generic 'health kit' with a big red cross on it that is a one stop shop for everything and takes you right to 100% like in Overwatch or Battlefield. That's bare-bones. There's no broken legs, or bleeding or concussion mechanics in most games so the damage/medical system couldn't be said to be bare bones either. Right now, they're both quite in depth. And even the looting system, although I wouldn't use the phrase in depth, isn't bare bones either compared to other popular titles which involve far less management and arrangement such as PUBG or even the DayZ mod or ARMA.

 

1 hour ago, FurryAlot said:

 the game is not going to be about "bring as much stuff from raid as you can and kill everyone in it"...

"EFT is a game about combat situations in dangerous conditions, where degree of the player involvement and knowledge play a very important role."
"... first-person hardcore multiplayer battle simulator Escape from Tarkov."

"...intuitively understandable for players, while remaining as uncompromisingly realistic and captivating"

"...cornerstone concept of the game - maximum immersion multiplayer shooter."

That's some of the things stated in the 2016 dev report describing what the game is about. Dangerous conditions, intuitive, uncompromisingly realistic and captivating, maximum immersion. None of those things would explicitly or implicitly give rise to a karma system, something that's clearly unintuitive, unrealistic, and immersion breaking, while also reducing the amount of dangerous conditions and player involvement and knowledge in the game.

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23 minutes ago, TechoverMana said:

If I saw the blueprint have square wheels, and they're talking about having square wheels, then I'd say its safe to assume they're planning on square wheels.
This metaphor is stretched to the limit.

 

I wouldn't say the game has bare-bones shooting, since they've taken care to have much more advanced ballistics and a gunplay that's rarely matched in other games, along with the gun modding and the influence on gun behavior. Penetration, ricochet, bullet drop, fragmentation, different types of ammo, combined ammo in the same magazine, ect. That's not bare bones, that's quite in depth. Bare-bones would be like hitscan with no further simulation of the round or differentiating between different guns and ammo. Healing also isn't bare-bones, even with the really fast heal times, since most games, like 99% are content with just a big generic 'health kit' with a big red cross on it that is a one stop shop for everything and takes you right to 100% like in Overwatch or Battlefield. That's bare-bones. There's no broken legs, or bleeding or concussion mechanics in most games so the damage/medical system couldn't be said to be bare bones either. Right now, they're both quite in depth. And even the looting system, although I wouldn't use the phrase in depth, isn't bare bones either compared to other popular titles which involve far less management and arrangement such as PUBG or even the DayZ mod or ARMA.

 

"EFT is a game about combat situations in dangerous conditions, where degree of the player involvement and knowledge play a very important role."
"... first-person hardcore multiplayer battle simulator Escape from Tarkov."

"...intuitively understandable for players, while remaining as uncompromisingly realistic and captivating"

"...cornerstone concept of the game - maximum immersion multiplayer shooter."

That's some of the things stated in the 2016 dev report describing what the game is about. Dangerous conditions, intuitive, uncompromisingly realistic and captivating, maximum immersion. None of those things would explicitly or implicitly give rise to a karma system, something that's clearly unintuitive, unrealistic, and immersion breaking, while also reducing the amount of dangerous conditions and player involvement and knowledge in the game.

It seems like you are the allseeing god because you know better  what this game is about than developers xD

Show  me the "blueprints" of karma you are talking  about because i have not seen any and dev interviews and forum suggestions are not it.

Yes what we have now are "barebones"/core mechanics of the game and as devs said there is much more mechanics to come that will affect the way EFT is played ...

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1 minute ago, FurryAlot said:

It seems like you are the allseeing god because you know better  what this game is about than developers

All I did was quote the developers.

And how are you going to say that interviews with the devs wouldn't count since they are speaking directly in a position as Word of God? When the dev says that PMC and Scav are going to be linked up and people will be punished as scavs for killing scavs despite lore saying it's perfectly within their nature, I think you need to put down the evidence for why this can't be used as evidence of how such a system would work.

And just because the devs have plans for more mechanics and content in the future doesn't mean the content we have now is bare bones. Gunplay, medical system, ect, are all far more advanced and defined than what you see in most AAA titles. Compare the gunplay and health mechanics of something like Battlefield to this, and EFT is far more advanced and complex in both, so I don't know how you say it's bare bones when most huge titles don't have 1/10th of what EFT has in these categories.

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Just now, TechoverMana said:

All I did was quote the developers.

And how are you going to say that interviews with the devs wouldn't count since they are speaking directly in a position as Word of God? When the dev says that PMC and Scav are going to be linked up and people will be punished as scavs for killing scavs despite lore saying it's perfectly within their nature, I think you need to put down the evidence for why this can't be used as evidence of how such a system would work.

And just because the devs have plans for more mechanics and content in the future doesn't mean the content we have now is bare bones. Gunplay, medical system, ect, are all far more advanced and defined than what you see in most AAA titles. Compare the gunplay and health mechanics of something like Battlefield to this, and EFT is far more advanced and complex in both, so I don't know how you say it's bare bones when most huge titles don't have 1/10th of what EFT has in these categories.

Its barebones compared to the whole  game ,not compared to Bf or any other game

. everything and anything devs said in an interview is still subject to change if its not implemented already or announced in patch notes.

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2 minutes ago, FurryAlot said:

everything and anything devs said in an interview is still subject to change

That being the case then, hopefully the karma system changes to non-existent. But the stuff they have said and their intents for it are worth discussing and analyzing and criticizing. Again, you don't have to taste test 6 month old milk that looks and smells rotten just to check if it's really as bad as it seems. Based on the answer in the interview, it is among my criticisms of that system. I don't think constantly hoping or asking that I just stop talking about it is going to go anywhere. It's clear at this point I'm going to keep voicing my opinion on what I think could be a really bad system that honestly will do more harm than any proposed good.

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