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Battleeye anti cheat is coming?

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Shaktimaan

Here we go again with the anticheat bandwagon thing.

First people were absolutely sure that region locking would be the way to go for their version of "ping abusers" which basically boils down to a unstable host-client connection which by the way didn't do anything at all which also include the reduction of region based hackers targeting other regions, and now suddenly everyone is absolutely sure that a third party anticheat will magically solve every problem there is with cheaters.

Most of the people almost on all discussion platforms seem to think that "installing" an anticheat is as straightforward and simple as installing a new fridge or a washing machine. Despite there being a third party anticheat system deployed across multitude of FPS games, there still are cheaters playing and cheating at the same time in those games.

IP and MAC address banning is pointless as the cheaters just spoof one up and voila, they're suddenly not banned anymore. It's across all the multiplayer games of which you can ever think of and there is nothing out there in the world which can stop it anytime soon.

The bottom line is that Tarkov's anticheat is literally as good as Battleye. People seem to have this notion of it being superior only because of the fact that there isn't a "OMG EVERYONE IS A HACKER" bandwagon going on in all of those games.

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Chaos_Theorist
6 hours ago, Shaktimaan said:

Here we go again with the anticheat bandwagon thing.

First people were absolutely sure that region locking would be the way to go for their version of "ping abusers" which basically boils down to a unstable host-client connection which by the way didn't do anything at all which also include the reduction of region based hackers targeting other regions, and now suddenly everyone is absolutely sure that a third party anticheat will magically solve every problem there is with cheaters.

Most of the people almost on all discussion platforms seem to think that "installing" an anticheat is as straightforward and simple as installing a new fridge or a washing machine. Despite there being a third party anticheat system deployed across multitude of FPS games, there still are cheaters playing and cheating at the same time in those games.

IP and MAC address banning is pointless as the cheaters just spoof one up and voila, they're suddenly not banned anymore. It's across all the multiplayer games of which you can ever think of and there is nothing out there in the world which can stop it anytime soon.

The bottom line is that Tarkov's anticheat is literally as good as Battleye. People seem to have this notion of it being superior only because of the fact that there isn't a "OMG EVERYONE IS A HACKER" bandwagon going on in all of those games.

Battle-eye has a warden system that ACTIVELY bans people.   Then it even goes so far as to send you the legit players a message indicating that "The last ranked match you were in had a hacker, as a result we are undoing the loss of ranks to your stats."   Battle-eye does NOT REQUIRE people to attempt to record on a badly optimized game for the SOLE purpose of trying to get photo evidence of the hacker.  Why should that burden be on US?   Why she WE have to record, upload and tag everything in hopes that it MAY be reviewed.    

A REPLAY SYSTEM WOULD RESOLVE LITERALLY ALL OF THIS.   (inb4 butthurts whining about replays giving away their super secret spots, post-game.)

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Teilzeitgod
Am 3.8.2019 um 20:53 schrieb HijackDallas:

Is it actually possible to have 2 separate AC at once? 2 AC for 1 Game?

yeah ofc, like fairfight (bans on statistics, unrealistic movement etc.) and BE or EAC or what ever you want

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zieft
On 8/4/2019 at 1:22 AM, smoke417 said:

first i have to  say i m not supporting any cheat or hack but what i think this is just a sad reality for all fps game ,so  please at first tell me , which  FPS game that is hacks/cheat free ,  pubg rb6 cs bfv bf1 apex division2 cod etc ? no offence , i guess anticheat works really well in all those games, every fps game forum you go , what u will find first is complaint about how bad the hack and cheat is killing the game and how shitty the anti cheat job the game company did blah blah blah,

even if the current anti-cheat works good, a Hardware ban would be much better.

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Shaktimaan
16 hours ago, Chaos_Theorist said:

Battle-eye has a warden system that ACTIVELY bans people.   Then it even goes so far as to send you the legit players a message indicating that "The last ranked match you were in had a hacker, as a result we are undoing the loss of ranks to your stats."   Battle-eye does NOT REQUIRE people to attempt to record on a badly optimized game for the SOLE purpose of trying to get photo evidence of the hacker.  Why should that burden be on US?   Why she WE have to record, upload and tag everything in hopes that it MAY be reviewed.    

A REPLAY SYSTEM WOULD RESOLVE LITERALLY ALL OF THIS.   (inb4 butthurts whining about replays giving away their super secret spots, post-game.)

Well, the "warden system" is basically what VAC is in a nutshell. Games which you've played with hackers have no impact on your MMR. As I said, it's literally the same but it's sugar coated make it feel nice to you. It's basically saying "HAY GUYZ IM WORKING" which is basically what how basic intimidation tactics work. It's just boasting it's work done to appease people and make them feel good about themselves.

All of those anticheats work like a antivirus program. They just play catch up. They have some preset triggering patterns and all they do is match it with them based on the data which is available to them. People create new data patterns depending on new cheats found or reported on the internet.

The recording are there because it's a neural network based anticheat(atleast that's what my assumptions tells me based on BSG's confidence and it totally would make sense in this day and age). BSG feeds in the unique game codes in which hackers were present to the AI or bot and it's totally experimental at this stage. I highly doubt anyone has ever tried to make a neural network based anticheat, but to my knowledge nobody has done this. If it already exists. I would surely like to know a source as I'm interested in that sort of stuff.

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DrunKingMasta

If its true it would be a good sign through the fight with a cheaters

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Shaktimaan
1 minute ago, DrunKingMasta said:

If its true it would be a good sign through the fight with a cheaters

As I said, it's just my wild a** speculation, BUT it's totally possible in this day and age.

 

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DrunKingMasta
32 минуты назад, Shaktimaan сказал:

As I said, it's just my wild a** speculation, BUT it's totally possible in this day and age.

 

They just need outsorced antichieat though

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Shaktimaan
3 minutes ago, DrunKingMasta said:

They just need outsorced antichieat though

With neural networks, you can't.

The neural network/AI learns from data which is fed to it. It's given a reward structure for rewarding things like detecting a pattern in a cheater's behavior and from that it tries to evaluate multiple datasets and presents you a conclusion with based on the reward points a specific pattern got.

So in theory, all BSG has to do is keep feeding it suspicious behavior and after say like 10 hits with a specific cheating program, it will detect the anomaly from other users and keep a note of it.

Now, it needs to be fed quality data. You can't expect to take any meaningful data from a salty player who literally reports everyone who manages to kill that person. Atleast in the experimentation stage it needs quality data to actually make sense of things.

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DrunKingMasta
1 минуту назад, Shaktimaan сказал:

With neural networks, you can't.

The neural network/AI learns from data which is fed to it. It's given a reward structure for rewarding things like detecting a pattern in a cheater's behavior and from that it tries to evaluate multiple datasets and presents you a conclusion with based on the reward points a specific pattern got.

So in theory, all BSG has to do is keep feeding it suspicious behavior and after say like 10 hits with a specific cheating program, it will detect the anomaly from other users and keep a note of it.

Now, it needs to be fed quality data. You can't expect to take any meaningful data from a salty player who literally reports everyone who manages to kill that person. Atleast in the experimentation stage it needs quality data to actually make sense of things.

They dont need a neural works, just battleye for start, then need to look up for some good stuff like private anticheat in arma 2

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Shaktimaan
Just now, DrunKingMasta said:

They dont need a neural works, just battleye for start, then need to look up for some good stuff like private anticheat in arma 2

It's not feasable or as good as people claim it to be. Just google things about those anticheats and you will find tons of people still hacking even with it deployed.

Just because people are not complaining about it doesn't make it any good than the one BSG has.

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zieft
1 hour ago, Shaktimaan said:

I highly doubt anyone has ever tried to make a neural network based anticheat, but to my knowledge nobody has done this.

CSGO VACnet is currently working on Deep learning anti cheat.

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AzureChimes
On 8/4/2019 at 12:15 PM, Shaktimaan said:

Here we go again with the anticheat bandwagon thing.

First people were absolutely sure that region locking would be the way to go for their version of "ping abusers" which basically boils down to a unstable host-client connection which by the way didn't do anything at all which also include the reduction of region based hackers targeting other regions, and now suddenly everyone is absolutely sure that a third party anticheat will magically solve every problem there is with cheaters.

Most of the people almost on all discussion platforms seem to think that "installing" an anticheat is as straightforward and simple as installing a new fridge or a washing machine. Despite there being a third party anticheat system deployed across multitude of FPS games, there still are cheaters playing and cheating at the same time in those games.

IP and MAC address banning is pointless as the cheaters just spoof one up and voila, they're suddenly not banned anymore. It's across all the multiplayer games of which you can ever think of and there is nothing out there in the world which can stop it anytime soon.

The bottom line is that Tarkov's anticheat is literally as good as Battleye. People seem to have this notion of it being superior only because of the fact that there isn't a "OMG EVERYONE IS A HACKER" bandwagon going on in all of those games.

EAC/Battleye is extremely difficult to bypass considering not only its Warden algorithms, buts layered algorithms. EAC bans major ID's which makes the task of spoofing almost impossible. Its not perfect, but its definitely not simple. Have you ever tried your hand at programming? Spoofing those two requires someone who is an very knowledgeable to spoof embedded serials and volume ID's. Everyone talks about spoofing like you can get just simply regedit and change your hex files and poof. You either have to find someone who's skilled and willing to take the time to create a program for you which he will not give you free of charge.

If you get banned by BattleEye, you have to change your harddrives, MAC, IP, then reinstall Windows. That is SOP for a HWID band. The problem is, BattleEye flags your entire registry, and are now also using your GPU and CPU serials. BattleEye is extremely intrusive, but for a reason.

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sYs
19 minutes ago, zieft said:

CSGO VACnet is currently working on Deep learning anti cheat.

Yes - is costs millions to operate. BSG doesn't have that kind of money. For those interested how AC's work and trends and stuff - take a look at this gorgeous informative video.

 

 

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Shaktimaan
12 hours ago, AzureChimes said:

EAC/Battleye is extremely difficult to bypass considering not only its Warden algorithms, buts layered algorithms. EAC bans major ID's which makes the task of spoofing almost impossible. Its not perfect, but its definitely not simple. Have you ever tried your hand at programming? Spoofing those two requires someone who is an very knowledgeable to spoof embedded serials and volume ID's. Everyone talks about spoofing like you can get just simply regedit and change your hex files and poof. You either have to find someone who's skilled and willing to take the time to create a program for you which he will not give you free of charge.

If you get banned by BattleEye, you have to change your harddrives, MAC, IP, then reinstall Windows. That is SOP for a HWID band. The problem is, BattleEye flags your entire registry, and are now also using your GPU and CPU serials. BattleEye is extremely intrusive, but for a reason.

Dude, these days all you have to do is google for things.

There is literally a tool out there for everything that you mentioned.

https://www.raymond.cc/blog/changing-or-spoofing-hard-disk-hardware-serial-number-and-volume-id/

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AzureChimes
7 hours ago, Shaktimaan said:

Dude, these days all you have to do is google for things.

There is literally a tool out there for everything that you mentioned.

https://www.raymond.cc/blog/changing-or-spoofing-hard-disk-hardware-serial-number-and-volume-id/

Just to let you know what identifiers BattleEye and EAC uses to prolong a HWID band.

- IP address & router hardware serial
- Game identifiers (e.g. in-game name, account ID, etc.)
- Hardware device information and identifiers (e.g. serial numbers)
- Information about the running operating system
- Information about game-related and operating-system-related files and memory
- Information about running processes, drivers and other executable code
- File names included in other information listed here, which might also contain your operating system user name

 

Its apparent you have no clue what you're talking about or have much experience with it. If you want, there are hundreds and thousands of threads of these "spoofers" not working in 2018/19 for individuals HWID banned with EAC/BattleEye. Those two anti cheat providers are filled with very talented people. If a spoofer was their biggest problem, they wouldn't be in business.

But hey, if you want go and get yourself HWID ban and tell me how well a spoofer works for you. I'll be waiting.

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Shaktimaan
49 minutes ago, AzureChimes said:

Just to let you know what identifiers BattleEye and EAC uses to prolong a HWID band.

- IP address & router hardware serial
- Game identifiers (e.g. in-game name, account ID, etc.)
- Hardware device information and identifiers (e.g. serial numbers)
- Information about the running operating system
- Information about game-related and operating-system-related files and memory
- Information about running processes, drivers and other executable code
- File names included in other information listed here, which might also contain your operating system user name

 

Its apparent you have no clue what you're talking about or have much experience with it. If you want, there are hundreds and thousands of threads of these "spoofers" not working in 2018/19 for individuals HWID banned with EAC/BattleEye. Those two anti cheat providers are filled with very talented people. If a spoofer was their biggest problem, they wouldn't be in business.

But hey, if you want go and get yourself HWID ban and tell me how well a spoofer works for you. I'll be waiting.

As I said, in this day and age, there is a tool for literally everything that you can possibly think of.

The early gen console market basically "defeated" with hardware level spoofing. It's nothing new, it has been there since the early 2000's. People have spoofed everything from the DVD drive's HW serial number to spoofing console firmware updates to run homebrew code.

Now with virtualization and new out of the box flashing tools for your BIOS it's even more convenient for you to do so.

I'm not saying that people aren't talented or anything of that sorts, I'm just saying that they're getting payed to play catchup and to do damage control every time there is a new exploit out there.

Almost all of the anticheat programs are there to stop the most blatant hackers out there and nothing else. No anticheat in the world is 100% foolproof and there is never going to be one. It's there to ban 95% of the total cheating population who have no idea what got them banned in the first place. The other 5% of the cheaters who know their poo are still out there making money and selling private cheats/exploits to people who are willing to offer a lot of money or buying it from the sellers are a marked up price.

People have this weird notion of "If I throw money at something, it will definitely fix it. Afterall they're taking money for it right? It must surely work according to my expectations"

 

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Chaos_Theorist
Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, Shaktimaan said:

As I said, in this day and age, there is a tool for literally everything that you can possibly think of.

The early gen console market basically "defeated" with hardware level spoofing. It's nothing new, it has been there since the early 2000's. People have spoofed everything from the DVD drive's HW serial number to spoofing console firmware updates to run homebrew code.

Now with virtualization and new out of the box flashing tools for your BIOS it's even more convenient for you to do so.

I'm not saying that people aren't talented or anything of that sorts, I'm just saying that they're getting payed to play catchup and to do damage control every time there is a new exploit out there.

Almost all of the anticheat programs are there to stop the most blatant hackers out there and nothing else. No anticheat in the world is 100% foolproof and there is never going to be one. It's there to ban 95% of the total cheating population who have no idea what got them banned in the first place. The other 5% of the cheaters who know their poo are still out there making money and selling private cheats/exploits to people who are willing to offer a lot of money or buying it from the sellers are a marked up price.

People have this weird notion of "If I throw money at something, it will definitely fix it. Afterall they're taking money for it right? It must surely work according to my expectations"

 

You seem to just be playing devil's advocate at this point... No one is arguing that it can be 100% dealt with.  It's being argued that the laundry list of things Azure mentioned are EXCELLENT deterrents.   And the VAST majority of the problem hackers in this game will be washed away IMHO if they have to spend HOURS spoofing their entire system just to come back to Tarkov.   

Edited by Chaos_Theorist
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Shaktimaan
Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Chaos_Theorist said:

You seem to just be playing devil's advocate at this point... No one is arguing that it can be 100% dealt with.  It's being argued that the laundry list of things Azure mentioned are EXCELLENT deterrents.   And the VAST majority of the problem hackers in this game will be washed away IMHO if they have to spend HOURS spoofing their entire system just to come back to Tarkov.   

It's being dealt with. 

Someone made a report on it. It's definitely worth a read considering the amount of effort put into that Reddit post.

The current deterrents are within the acceptable range. That's all I'm saying. And bringing in a new shiny third party anticheat won't magically reduce or increase the current threshold. It's going to be more or less the same.

Things aren't as bad as people are claiming it to be. It's within the acceptable range for any anticheat solution out there but for some reason people aren't satisfied with it.

Edited by Shaktimaan
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luminaire_

Honestly I just think all these people who try to fervently argue against upgraded anti-cheat are just cheaters themselves who don't want to go through the trouble of doing all that crap if/when they get banned.

I mean you'd have to be a fool to try and make the case that there isn't a real plague of cheaters in this game, and fun as it is, they ruin the experience pretty severely.

So other than cheaters bitching and moaning about upgrades to the AC, what is the actual reason that it shouldn't be upgraded?

"They'll still find ways to cheat" isn't a good reason to not enhance the counter-measures.

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Shaktimaan
Posted (edited)

@luminaire_

Just read the report. You'll understand.

And if you don't even after reading the report, god speed my dude.

The argument isn't about upgrading the anticheat. The argument is about calling the current anticheat solution totally worthless. It's being upgraded as we speak but we will never know the details about it because that information is classified for obvious reasons. Just because they're not making that information public doesn't mean it's not being upgraded or being worked on.

My point here is that people are just finding ways at this point to complain about things even when they're normal. People desperately want a placebo effect and are mindlessly hopping on the bandwagon.

Edited by Shaktimaan

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luminaire_

@Shaktimaan

Encountering an extremely likely cheater in 1 out of 4 labs raids is absolutely insane to me.

I can speak from personal experience that at the start of the season, it was potentially even higher than that, it was rampant.

And I did the same thing as that guy in loads of raids, I just didn't record overall games played versus likely cheaters encountered stats.

If you think that's just fine, god speed to you, my dude, because I wholeheartedly disagree.

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Shaktimaan
Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, luminaire_ said:

@Shaktimaan

Encountering an extremely likely cheater in 1 out of 4 labs raids is absolutely insane to me.

I can speak from personal experience that at the start of the season, it was potentially even higher than that, it was rampant.

And I did the same thing as that guy in loads of raids, I just didn't record overall games played versus likely cheaters encountered stats.

If you think that's just fine, god speed to you, my dude, because I wholeheartedly disagree.

And your personal experience is totally biased. Not to mention you have no kind of evidence to support your claims other than saying "Trust me dude, there are cheaters EVERYWHERE".

There is a report made by someone which I've linked above. If you'd just care to read it maybe it might change your opinion.

What you're saying is heresy at this point and the one linked above has concrete evidence supporting that claim.

That guy literally created a followup post after reading a post from someone who had an excel sheet as "proof". There was no credibility for that excel sheet at all and in that video he pointed out why that data cannot be trusted at all by providing valid and logical arguments like the file was created one day before the post.

Edited by Shaktimaan

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luminaire_
Posted (edited)

The word you're looking for is hearsay, not heresy.

And I recorded and reported a number of them to the cheater reddit thread, and frankly I don't care if you believe me.

I want them to fix the game, and I'm annoyed as poo by people saying 'no measure taken will be perfect, so why bother doing anything above and beyond at all.'

It sounds like such a bullshit cop-out, and makes me suspicious as duck of you.

Cheers, have fun trying to defend the incredibly weird position of 'less anti-cheat is better somehow.'

P.S. I literally quoted the report you're talking about, 25% encountered cheaters on labs, his words.

Edited by luminaire_

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GuerrillaOPS
On 7/29/2019 at 2:52 PM, Chaos_Theorist said:

Sat there for 15 minutes until he finished everyone off and left via medical elevator.  He even kept popping shots at the wall right at my head to dim my vision.   I kept flipping him off through the wall to let him know I'm waiting and recording lol.  

What a boss.

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