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MIkeKillson

Remove recoil skill ?

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MIkeKillson

As it is right now tarkov has recoil auto adjusted for you like everyone knows but in my option and a few others I know of that creates a less skillful gameplay and even more so when you spend a few hours cheesing your recoil and assault skill up to the point that everyone gun becomes a laser beam as you can see in a video a guy made here  - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWzWIEkO8GY -

 

 An yes i understand the RPG element of the game but its a little out of hand at the moment if you ask me ,  My option I think BSG should remove it all together and add a base spray pattern like games have in the past or just Nerf it all together .  Doing so would make macro recoil control a thing but for the majority of the community this would not really effect them an aside from that a system could be made to catch said macro { easier said then done I know and it would be alot more work for BSG } if it can be done at all i don't know .

If you would like to charm in an agree disagree or even come up with a better idea on how this could be fixed please share and thanks for reading gl in .12 

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Sir_Mossy

The only thing I personally think needs to be adjusted is the leveling out that it gets to after the initial recoil. I have no problem with a skill that can reduce recoil, but being able to full auto laser spray from any distance with any optic is kind of ridiculous. Nobody should be able to full auto spray from a distance like that while standing with perfect accuracy. Crouching and proning are different cases, but standing is a definite no. 

I recall watching a video of someone full auto spraying an M4 with a magnified optic. They just casually went from target to target, non-stop spraying, and mowed down 3 people from about 50 meters away with zero recoil. This is something that should not be possible in this game unless you are prone and potentially using a bipod. 

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MIkeKillson
Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Griffin_Wolf said:

You are talking about removing a SKILL,......you have to WORK for it. If you were at work and got paid more money than the other workers because you WORKED at something would this be fair?

Thats not at all what We are saying , Its a broken skill combined with a even more so broken system they use for the recoil control and like i said IMO I think its makes the game less skillful .

But even if it does not get removed whatever im fine with that but it still does not take away the fact guns have no recoil with max skill and it should be Nerfed . 

Please try your best to contribute something intelligent to post instead of nonsense maybe try next time tell me why you dont think the skill is broken  

Edited by MIkeKillson

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Wolf_Sage
4 hours ago, MIkeKillson said:

Thats not at all what We are saying , Its a broken skill combined with a even more so broken system they use for the recoil control and like i said IMO I think its makes the game less skillful .

But even if it does not get removed whatever im fine with that but it still does not take away the fact guns have no recoil with max skill and it should be Nerfed . 

Please try your best to contribute something intelligent to post instead of nonsense maybe try next time tell me why you dont think the skill is broken  

I have learned ALOT about the definition of "Realism" on this forum and what i have come to in conclusion is that there has to be a healthy level of "unrealism" so to speak,.. in a realistic game, This is BSG's way of rewarding players that spend a crazy amount of time in game anyway, don't worry about that recoil control buddy, most these guy's that rock that no-recoil gun have so many hour's in game chances are they are going to smoke your ass anyway. But i believe at the heart of it i can gather you have a point too. What im really hearing is "How really much can a great shooter really control recoil?"...........well i don't know,....what do you think? Do you think a guy that is at FT.Bragg serving with DELTA force can control recoil better than the average shooter? 

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HachiR0ku
1 hour ago, Griffin_Wolf said:

I have learned ALOT about the definition of "Realism" on this forum and what i have come to in conclusion is that there has to be a healthy level of "unrealism" so to speak,.. in a realistic game, This is BSG's way of rewarding players that spend a crazy amount of time in game anyway, don't worry about that recoil control buddy, most these guy's that rock that no-recoil gun have so many hour's in game chances are they are going to smoke your ass anyway. But i believe at the heart of it i can gather you have a point too. What im really hearing is "How really much can a great shooter really control recoil?"...........well i don't know,....what do you think? Do you think a guy that is at FT.Bragg serving with DELTA force can control recoil better than the average shooter? 

it doesnt matter how good someone is at controlling recoil, it will never be a lazer beam like it is in tarkov with a max level.

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AvIt21
On 8/20/2019 at 5:38 AM, MIkeKillson said:

 An yes i understand the RPG element of the game but its a little out of hand at the moment if you ask me

Ok this is a little dramatic. And no I don't think it should be removed for the simple reason you stated, recoil scripts will be a problem. The problem lies in how the skill is leveled and not how it behaves. It needs to be a lot harder with key factors that trigger the leveling of said skill. 

Also you can't take that video at face value for a few reasons. 1, you have no idea what, if any programs he is using. 2, he could indeed be running a sort of recoil script himself. 

I can't speak from experience of maxing the skill because I just play the game and cba to cheese the stats but there is no situation that I've seen where someone just stands there and sprays you down, never seen it in the years I've been playing.

If you're getting sprayed down like this then the issue is more to do with you than the other guy. He's worked to gain the skills required, not to mention modded his gun to the point of having best in slot mods.

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MIkeKillson
Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Griffin_Wolf said:

I have learned ALOT about the definition of "Realism" on this forum and what i have come to in conclusion is that there has to be a healthy level of "unrealism" so to speak,.. in a realistic game, This is BSG's way of rewarding players that spend a crazy amount of time in game anyway, don't worry about that recoil control buddy, most these guy's that rock that no-recoil gun have so many hour's in game chances are they are going to smoke your ass anyway. But i believe at the heart of it i can gather you have a point too. What im really hearing is "How really much can a great shooter really control recoil?"...........well i don't know,....what do you think? Do you think a guy that is at FT.Bragg serving with DELTA force can control recoil better than the average shooter? 

thanks for contributing something to this ,  I'll be honest with you I hate the word realism I think its over used and the game should be more about being hard with balance aspects and this skill imo is a little over the top at the max level not saying it shouldn't be good if you take your time doing it a for hours and hours and even more hours to be good but as it is right now you can sit in a bush and cheese it for a few hours making it less meaningful and really just afking to level something  .

Aside from that no one should ever be able to have a no recoil gun just a lot less if they actually put the time in by playing and actually shooting and what my friend said the other day to me learning the gun your using , How would you feel about this remove the skill and integrate it into the gun mastery so the more you use lets say the akm  or the m4 the better you will feel with said gun that way it feels like your making more progress with it 

Edited by MIkeKillson
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Wolf_Sage
Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, MIkeKillson said:

thanks for contributing something to this ,  I'll be honest with you I hate the word realism I think its over used and the game should be more about being hard with balance aspects and this skill imo is a little over the top at the max level not saying it shouldn't be good if you take your time doing it a for hours and hours and even more hours to be good but as it is right now you can sit in a bush and cheese it for a few hours making it less meaningful and really just afking to level something  .

Aside from that no one should ever be able to have a no recoil gun just a lot less if they actually put the time in by playing and actually shooting and what my friend said the other day to me learning the gun your using , How would you feel about this remove the skill and integrate it into the gun mastery so the more you use lets say the akm  or the m4 the better you will feel with said gun that way it feels like your making more progress with it 

Let's set thing's up,......this first and foremost is a Video Game, do i feel funny when i have to shoot Rashala 3 times in the Head because he's the Boss and he's a Bad-Ass, he has plates in his head or something,....lol. Things happen and i feel very much like Escape from Tarkov is just this run-away video game masterpiece that is being worked on one step at a time with occasional sidestep's along the way (Like Lab's and the New Military Post Map, none of those were initially planned) and i am just along for the ride, I think differently about the game now than i did in the past. Realism is pretty evident on a good day in Tarkov i believe, but mechanics like Aim-punch in my opinion are really needed. But they are working on it, and working hard im sure....If they deliver on their promise and everything they stated they were going to give us is there,.......I have been very impressed with BSG lately, not only is .12 going to be packed with amazing content including an upgraded Game engine but then they went and hired one of the Best Anti-Cheat companies out there, who regardless of what hacker you talk to are amazingly effective at what they do. The only thing in the begging that truly degraded my experience playing EFT didn't even come from BSG at all, It was me Expecting a Game to be 100% realistic, and that was an unrealistic expectation and i realize that,... now  i want the helmets to be a little OP, i hit a scav in the head the other day on Factory and he had one of those Blue UNTAR helmets on and he ate 2 rounds and the 3rd one killed him,...Is that "Realistic?...hell no, do i know that its a game and helmets have to do Something. So now i KNOW i have to hit johnny scav in the head 2 or 3 times when hes wearing a Kiver  to get a kill,....no problem, when i go out in top tier armor do i want it to save my life once if i make a stupid mistake,...definitely, do i expect it to save my ass twice,...Definitely not. So there has to be a balance.  

Edited by Griffin_Wolf
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Paxcon

At this point recoil skill is broke. At elite level it makes a modded FAL have less recoil and better grouping than an mpx. 

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MIkeKillson
30 minutes ago, Griffin_Wolf said:

Let's set thing's up,......this first and foremost is a Video Game, do i feel funny when i have to shoot Rashala 3 times in the Head because he's the Boss and he's a Bad-Ass, he has plates in his head or something,....lol. Things happen and i feel very much like Escape from Tarkov is just this run-away video game masterpiece that is being worked on one step at a time with occasional sidestep's along the way (Like Lab's and the New Military Post Map, none of those were initially planned) and i am just along for the ride, I think differently about the game now than i did in the past. Realism is pretty evident on a good day in Tarkov i believe, but mechanics like Aim-punch in my opinion are really needed. But they are working on it, and working hard im sure....If they deliver on their promise and everything they stated they were going to give us is there,.......I have been very impressed with BSG lately, not only is .12 going to be packed with amazing content including an upgraded Game engine but then they went and hired one of the Best Anti-Cheat companies out there, who regardless of what hacker you talk to are amazingly effective at what they do. The only thing in the begging that truly degraded my experience playing EFT didn't even come from BSG at all, It was me Expecting a Game to be 100% realistic, and that was an unrealistic expectation and i realize that,... now  i want the helmets to be a little OP, i hit a scav in the head the other day on Factory and he had one of those Blue UNTAR helmets on and he ate 2 rounds and the 3rd one killed him,...Is that "Realistic?...hell no, do i know that its a game and helmets have to do Something. So now i KNOW i have to hit johnny scav in the head 2 or 3 times when hes wearing a Kiver  to get a kill,....no problem, when i go out in top tier armor do i want it to save my life once if i make a stupid mistake,...definitely, do i expect it to save my ass twice,...Definitely not. So there has to be a balance.  

I cant agree more tarkov is a masterpiece and we're not even near done it I cant wait to see what BSG does with this game , Yeah we do need some realistic things in the game forsure to give it that immersive feel to it I just hope they dont go full blown and make the game unfun with it which im sure they wont BSG loves the game and know fairly well what to do with it and like you said they bought one of the best anti cheats for the community they did not have to do it realistically but they want their game to succeed .

we are getting a little off topic but i'd love to see the top tier stuff be loot only and make the loot only helmets and armor really good but not op just what they are meant to be and thats the best of the best , I have no idea how that would play out just something I feel would be nice to have 

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Wolf_Sage
1 hour ago, Paxcon said:

At this point recoil skill is broke. At elite level it makes a modded FAL have less recoil and better grouping than an mpx. 

REALLY???........i mean is this a fact? if that's the case ....that should never happen.

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vekongmaster

Dear @MIkeKillson,

 

Here's some good thread discussing Recoil pattern in EFT.

 

 

The current Full Auto firing "pattern" seems to resemble something like this:

image.thumb.png.afceef0600aa10725c1b3ee85288bd23.png

 

 

Perhaps modifying the "last" stage to look something along these lines might help give full-auto fire a more reasonable pattern:

image.thumb.png.8fee6613fd523f2fe450e5972d6d7abe.png

 

The "bloom" or "dispersion" area during full-auto firing should be bigger like in this picture.

 

 

I hope BSG Devs will consider nerfing the full auto mode a little bit.

 

Regards,

-Vekongmaster-

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MIkeKillson
4 minutes ago, vekongmaster said:

Dear @MIkeKillson,

 

Here's some good thread discussing Recoil pattern in EFT.

 

 

The current Full Auto firing "pattern" seems to resemble something like this:

image.thumb.png.afceef0600aa10725c1b3ee85288bd23.png

 

 

Perhaps modifying the "last" stage to look something along these lines might help give full-auto fire a more reasonable pattern:

image.thumb.png.8fee6613fd523f2fe450e5972d6d7abe.png

 

The "bloom" or "dispersion" area during full-auto firing should be bigger like in this picture.

 

 

I hope BSG Devs will consider nerfing the full auto mode a little bit.

 

Regards,

-Vekongmaster-

Thanks for the great representation of how it works,  even if they just nerf the standing recoil patterns to something like your example Id be okay with that . Cheers mate

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Underhook

Just throwing my hat in the ring.  I think the game would be better if all skills related to combat were removed.  The only people who benefit are cheesers and glitchers in what should be a skilled based game.  

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CALL_ME_SNAKE

yeh all combat skills should be removed as well as the pmc auto recoil control that every player gets at the start

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Spectator6
Posted (edited)

Hello @MIkeKillson! Wanted to throw in my two cents for everyone's discussion. Kind of as a deeper dive...

As you can no doubt tell from my post linked above, I support the mechanics that BSG brings to bear on firing a weapon. Is it perfect? No (looking at you laser beam bullet hoses!). Does it still need improving? Yes, I believe so, and I've outlined my suggestions in the thread. But in my view, the underlying foundation they've established is solid. 

A number of people feel that manual recoil control is a crucial aspect of what makes an FPS competitive. Precise mouse flicks and drags are what separate skilled versus unskilled players. To them, controlling recoil, then, is in itself literally one of THE defining elements of an FPS.  Remove or deemphasize that layer of user input and we're left with something quite different, no?

And to those points, I'd say they're absolutely right! If players are meant to compete to see who can aim and shoot the best, then by all means, controlling a weapon should be front and center. Except… What if the "tried and true" methods of weapon recoil control that we've grown accustomed to do not present a very realistic picture?

The thought exercise I try to put forth may be best understood in three parts.

-----

Part One:

-----

What if BSG intends to do something different with EFT? What if, by somewhat controlling for player inputs related to aiming, the end result of what is presented to the player in a firefight actually more accurately depicts the realities of combat?

In real life, if we were to take two combat veterans who have comparable levels of training and experience, how wide of a difference would we expect to see in their performance? One a crack shot and the other a slouch? Or both relatively equal? (This is borne out in the rather slim progress bonuses, ie 2% better recoil control, etc)

To me, it seems EFT seeks to provide the player with an experience that reflects the latter -- a base level of skill among all players right from the get go. In doing so, by alleviating the burden of mastering fine-tuned-mouse-inputs-of-no-lifing-in-a-gamer-chair, it offers players the chance to embody a role. To see what it feels like to "play with the pros" where everyone is pretty darn effective. Not a means to compete, per se, but more a means to experience. To role play.

-----

Part Two:

-----

What if we've been lied to this whole time about what it is like to fire a weapon? What if, in real life, normal soldiers are not able to rip off accurate semi auto fire as quickly as they can pull the trigger? What if putting accurate rounds on target requires a slower cadence and rhythm than gamers have been led to believe after all these years? What if burst fire should feel sporadic and uncontrollable? What if full auto really is garbage at anything beyond close range and should not be as easy to overcome as mere mouse flicks and drags that span a matter of inches?

Case and point, here's some telling footage:

Here's one with an AK:

https://youtu.be/cosc-RO_oMg

Here's another with an MP5:

https://youtu.be/3XKPk6LXnS0

Here's another another with an AR-15:

https://youtu.be/K2WEvvisFfg

Annnnd my last contribution, again with an AR platform:

https://youtu.be/18kXkuoA014

Interesting to note the performance difference here between calibers/platforms too, as well as how much the shots drifted with the bipod.

Does the problem seem to be that they should just try harder to git gud? (Akshually, just learn to slide down on your mousepad a couple inches, duh!) Or does it instead seem that full auto is inherently an overwhelming-the-fine-motor-senses event? Speaking from live fire experience, to me the latter is more genuine and correct.

-----

Part Three:

-----

If we step back and take an object look into *HOW* a player controls his character, we find that we're severely limited in our inputs. We have one input (the mouse) that is abstracted to represent multiple things. It represents where our character is facing, where we're aiming our weapon, AND where we are trying to "control/counteract" the weapon's movements. In real life, each of these elements is an entirely separate motor-skill/awareness that is much more fluid, adaptable, and "unconscious" than first person shooters would have us believe.

As we all know, in real life we don't need to play a rather clumsy form digital gymnastics and hold down a modifier key to turn our head in a separate orientation from our weapon. Similarly, directing our intent for where we WANT to go is wholly separate from where we actually ARE going (picture yourself trying to mow straight lines in the grass). The act of intending to walk straight is separate from where we are actually walking, and the two aspects sort of meld/blend together in a rather seamless fashion.

In FPS's, however, we do not have this luxury of nuance and organic multi-layered inputs (or whatever you want to call it). Most FPS games weld the player's primary intent to the weapon's aim point. It's rather crude but, for the most part, it gets the job done. It seems to me, though, that EFT takes a different approach and marries the player's mouse inputs to where the player INTENDS to fire rather than to the weapon's aim point. This is a crucial distinction.

-----

Part Four (Bounus!):

 -----

In my view, it all comes down to user inputs. We've gotta mouse and we've gotta keyboard. Now, how can we use'em? In a traditional top-down RGP (or even melee based FPS's for that matter), players control the character's movement and facing, but not so much their actual attacks. The player clicks the mouse and the character swings his sword. How quickly and with how much strength the character makes the swing, though, is abstracted far from the literal motion of holding a heavy sword in your hands and swinging it around with your arms/body/etc.

And this makes sense given how widely divergent the act of swinging a sword is from moving a mouse. (Sidenote: There are some games that have allowed for the mouse movements to dictate swordplay, but they ran into the issue of, "Well, how does the player control his facing if his mouse is 'taken' by the sword controls?" The usual answer to this was to allow the player to artificially "lock on" to his target, to hand over the facing to the computer.)

The point I'd like people to consider here is it possible that, like swinging a sword, the act of controlling a full-auto weapon in real life is also too far divorced from simple mouse inputs?

Just as in the top-down RPG, what if "handing things over" to the computer/player-character allows for a more accurate representation of firing a weapon? This allows BSG to look at hard data and say, "Okay, you know what? From our research, highly trained operators typically perform around these thresholds. Let's 'give' the player that same starting point and allow some variation of improvement."

In other words, let's role-play the character's performance to some extent like a top down melee RPG handles it's attacks. Which kind of circles us back to Part One.

-----

Just because it's different, does not mean it's "wrong". It just means it's a different approach. Now, whether a person prefers one approach over another does not mean the other holds no merit.

To wrap things up (jeez this was long!), I do feel that the ultimate barometer of success is borne out in the player behavior that results from the mechanics. For the sake of discussion, let's just say that BSG is "right". Well, if the end result is that of accurately and consistently hip-firing beyond 25 meters in full auto (or whatever benchmark we set), since those results are WIDELY DIVERGENT from those we see in real life live fire events, then it may be fair to chalk it up as a faulty (again, looking at you full auto lazer beam high powered rifles, with players spraying and praying everywhere!).

Does that mean, then, that we must go back to unrealistic direct control of a weapon's aim point mixed with insane amounts of vertical recoil?

In my mind, no. I'd rather give BSG room to work and see this experiment play out a bit further. Because, as I outline in my original thread, I do think there are real and tangible ways the performance can be brought more in line with real life without throwing out the baby with the bathwater, so to speak.

And yes, I think "forgetting" skills should come back in some form. Otherwise, what prevents someone from no-lifing the game until their max level on virtually all weapon platforms? In real-life, that's not possible. Allowing skills to "fade" while not being used is what forces players to consistently specialize if they want to achieve and maintain top-of-the-pack performance with a weapon.

Thoughts? Improvements? And all always, thank you for reading my ramblings 😀

Edited by Spectator6
update link formats, add thoughts on skill fade
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Ixa

This topic is one of the biggest flaws with the ideology BSG has for this game, its supposed to be a hardcore realistic shooting game, where they have full realism ballistics with calibres, armour, projectile calculations etc. However this rpg system is honestly an afterthought design at its current stage.

Yes it makes sense that as a person, the more you do something the better you will get at it. However BSG takes this aspect and puts it on steroids, as it is factually physically impossible for a person to FULL AUTO a 60 round mag (WHILE MOVING somtimes) with a grouping thats like 2cm wide. Thats simply not how gun/human anatomy works.

I dont think BSG needs to remove skills, they need to reduce the % in which it assists players, to bring it more in line with what they are aiming for with the game, a REALISTIC shooter

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MIkeKillson
Posted (edited)
21 hours ago, Spectator6 said:

Thoughts? Improvements? And all always, thank you for reading my ramblings

Just a random place where I'll quote you .

okay fair point maybe BSG is correct and the way they are doing it will make sense in the future or even revelationize what we know idk but I am willing to stick with them to find out at least ,      

I generally try to just throw my ideas out there and see what people think ..people seemed to of jumped on this one and I love it real discussion is great for not just us but for BSG also so thanks for contributing in such a thoughtful matter .

I did mention this to someone above but how would you feel if they removed the recoil skill an added it to the weapon mastery side of the game . It could be adjusted based on caliber so like it would be some guns are just generally have more kick and that way also we could have more of a sense of progression with he guns we love and want to use , 

I'm sure this would be a big project for BSG idk how they would feel about it

 

 

Edited by MIkeKillson

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Spectator6
Posted (edited)

Yeah, great discussion @MIkeKillson, it's always a treat to talk about things related to EFT with others who share a similar open-mind and respectful approach! 

1 hour ago, MIkeKillson said:

how would you feel if they removed the recoil skill an added it to the weapon mastery side of the game . It could be adjusted based on caliber so like it would be some guns are just generally have more kick and that way also we could have more of a sense of progression with he guns we love and want to use

So take out the "across the board" recoil control skill, and instead, have the game reduce recoil on a per weapon basis, possibly as something tied to weapon mastery. Do I have that right?

That'd be worth exploring, imo! After all, if we stop to think about it, why should shooting an M4, for example, translate over to shooting, say, the .50 cal ASH-12? Which sounds a lot like what you're getting at.

I think it'd be great to take it one step further, even, and separate semi-auto recoil control from full-auto recoil control.

The only potential drawbacks I can see off the top of my head with making it as part of weapon mastery are:

  1. Rather than have the current weapon mastery be a catch-all for all weapon controls and also recoil, could recoil be broken out into its own thing? For example, "I may not be expert at recoil control with weapon XYZ, but reloading magazines and weapon transitions with weapon XYZ? I'm golden!" Which kind of opens up a side-request... Why not separate all weapon related skills on a per weapon basis?
  2. As it is right now I don't think weapon mastery ever degrades. If they make it so that if a player has completely moved on from using, say an MP5, and now exclusively runs M4 builds, IMO his capabilities with an MP5 should deteriorate for that. It probably shouldn't degrade all the way back to down to a beginner, but IMO, it shouldn't stay right where it was either. IMO, this will help keep the game fresh over the long term since players can never "have everything at once" and "finish" the game progression in the traditional sense. "You know, now that I've started playing fast and loud, I'm finding out now that my sneaking and awareness aren't so great anymore... Maybe I should try another playstyle to build those stats up again?"

What do you think?

Edited by Spectator6
typos, add a couple more things
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MIkeKillson
Posted (edited)
27 minutes ago, Spectator6 said:
  • Rather than have the current weapon mastery be a catch-all for all weapon controls and also recoil, could recoil be broken out into its own thing? For example, "I may not be expert at recoil control with weapon XYZ, but reloading magazines and weapon transitions with weapon XYZ? I'm golden!" Which kind of opens up a side-request... Why not separate all weapon related skills on a per weapon basis?
  • As it is right now I don't think weapon mastery ever degrades. If they make it so that if a player has completely moved on from using, say an MP5, and now exclusively runs M4 builds, IMO his capabilities with an MP5 should deteriorate for that. It probably shouldn't degrade all the way back to down to a beginner, but IMO, it shouldn't stay right where it was either. IMO, this will help keep the game fresh over the long term since players can never "have everything at once" and "finish" the game progression in the traditional sense. "You know, now that I've started playing fast and loud, I'm finding out now that my sneaking and awareness aren't so great anymore... Maybe I should try another playstyle to build those stats up again?"

I'm glad you understood me I was still abit out of it .

  • In sense this would open up the RPG elements and expand the games possibility greatly if they did separate everything to do with recoil , reloading and hell they could even bring the multi tool into play and make it so we can mod faster in raid with said gun , the possibility's are endless 
  • That could work out nicely as long as they make it stop after lets say idk 30% of what your skill is but this all depends on how fast we level mastery and other skills up to Its hard to find a good balance  . 
  • Everything we do should shape how our PMCs will act I love the idea of skills degrading I cant agree more it adds so much more versatility to the game and allows us to be unique more of it is always good 
Edited by MIkeKillson
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CooH1e2

Already posted some ideas and thoughts in the other thread but there were some good new points and discussions here.

I would like a game that force players to semi auto for medium /long ranges and that keeps that full auto meta only for CQB.

Therefore, I would like the recoil system (kind of PMC aiming) to be linked the bloom shape that @Spectator6 exposed.
The bloom shape would represent the area where a bullet can end because of the sway. Whenever you shoot this area expands until you take control of the gun again. 

image.png.35b622016ed1c156dab10a8b535345a7.png

IMO the important thing here is how much this bloom shapes gets big and how much time it takes this bloom to get back to the initial size.

In semi auto you would be benefit if you get the pace that your PMC can handle to get the gun stabilized again.

image.png.42541977bb14ab8abb1c0eee89be7ea0.png

 

Full auto will always be faster than this pace ... and that's why the shape will be still wide even if it can be improved by the skill.

image.png.5ab21f3db60eeb6142fc1df82fad28a4.png

 

Recoil system skill would improve how fast you can shoot precisely in semi auto and reduce a little the full auto but would never make it a laser beam if you keep the optimal pace for precise firing slower than the full auto (we see in linked videos that a full 30 round mag is empty in 3/4 seconds)

- Regarding how to improve /balance the skill ... I like your ideas of gun mastery and separate the elements as reload, recoil, ...

 

I love EFT overall and I'm sure they are testing all these things and they are going to change back and forth several aspects until they find the proper balance

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Spectator6
Posted (edited)
On 8/24/2019 at 8:11 PM, Ixa said:

Yes it makes sense that as a person, the more you do something the better you will get at it. However BSG takes this aspect and puts it on steroids, as it is factually physically impossible for a person to FULL AUTO a 60 round mag (WHILE MOVING somtimes) with a grouping thats like 2cm wide. Thats simply not how gun/human anatomy works.

Right on @Ixa, well said!

IMO, this must be addressed by BSG at some point. Supposedly they're not done increasing recoil thresholds to where they want them to be, so time will tell!

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@CooH1e2, good to see you man (waves hello), always a treat to have your input!

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On a sidenote, during the last set of pre-wipe events, IRRC one of the events made ammunition more rare. What was interesting was that, almost immediately, semi-auto and burst fire became much more common throughout the playerbase. Not because recoil was adjusted, but because players were acutely aware of the fact that they were spending a TON of money every time they wanted to blow through a vest full of 60-round magazines.

I just mention that to point out that, in addition to the recoil adjustments proposed throughout these threads, sometimes addressing a seemingly unrelated aspect of the game can also serve to shape player behavior in interesting ways.

If (hopefully when!) BSG tightens up the loot pools to make higher-end gear much more rare, we may be surprised by how much player behavior starts to mimick what we find in real life after-action-reports, video footage, etc.

Edited by Spectator6
typo

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FallenWarrior60
On 8/21/2019 at 5:57 PM, MIkeKillson said:

Thats not at all what We are saying , Its a broken skill combined with a even more so broken system they use for the recoil control and like i said IMO I think its makes the game less skillful .

But even if it does not get removed whatever im fine with that but it still does not take away the fact guns have no recoil with max skill and it should be Nerfed . 

Please try your best to contribute something intelligent to post instead of nonsense maybe try next time tell me why you dont think the skill is broken  

You are arguing with a 5 stacking noob that has max soft skills and thinks the best armor and weapons makes him good at this game. I say remove all the soft skills and make the game skill based not "I grinded a soft skill for a huge advantage" based.

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