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Starioshka

Armor downgraded.

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Starioshka

Right now there are way too many ways to go dumb in with your luck and cap a heavily armored guy with a few shots straight to his expensive level 4 armor. The problem is not that is doable, but that it is way too easy and cheap to not do it.

Back before 762x51 was widely available you had to carry an extra mag of BS rounds if you wanted to take on Armored guys and play accordingly. Now any loser can run up straight to a Fort and blast him dead upfront.

If you spend 300k on your loadout you should not be punished for it.

eft fortfriend blocks your AP rounds.jpg

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Jaitek

"cap a heavily armored guy with a few shots straight to his expensive level 4 armor"

Theres no problem here. 

Armor shouldnt guarantee that you live. 

No one makes anyone buy expensive builds, everyone knows the risks when they take it in. Thats part of the magic of Tarkov so no thanks. 

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FallenWarrior60

Armor should be nerfed more than it currently is. Right now it pretty much means you are unkillable if you are any good vs low geared players. If you are dying with a 300k kit often maybe you are just terrible. Armor should be repairable to 100% however it should be uninsurable and unpurchasable past level 3 armor.

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Starioshka

How does this make any sense?

IRL armor can stop MANY shots repeatedly and a human body can take multiple wounds and survive.

If you're pretending to be one of the "tarkov must be tactical and realistic" crowd you're a dummy for falling for a joke. Armor has to go back to patch 10 and earlier levels when you had to outplay the Fort not just shoot at him like a retarded monkey.

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svelve
22 minutes ago, Starioshka said:

How does this make any sense?

IRL armor can stop MANY shots repeatedly and a human body can take multiple wounds and survive.

If you're pretending to be one of the "tarkov must be tactical and realistic" crowd you're a dummy for falling for a joke. Armor has to go back to patch 10 and earlier levels when you had to outplay the Fort not just shoot at him like a retarded monkey.

Well You´re the daft monkey here. You honestly think if You wear "fort armor" You can survive 10+ shots close range with 7.62 ? Please :D Go cry us a river how U cant aim in a game and people keep getting free stuff :D

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Yeavo
15 hours ago, Starioshka said:

IRL armor can stop MANY shots repeatedly and a human body can take multiple wounds and survive.

There is a reason most military organisations tell you to change you plates if they are hit even once. The reasoning being that every shot gets its kinetic force applied to the armor plate which will deform that armor making it less resistant to the next round, and with bad luck the next shot might hit the exact same place on armor and penetrate, though this is very unlikely it has been known to happen. Bodyarmor is also called bullet resistant not bullet proof also for a reason. And if we're talking about real world bodyarmor even if the armor can take 7.62x51R your ribs behind that armor can't take repeated beating. I've personally shot NIJ-IIIA soft armor on ballistic gel dummy (with plastic ribs and fake food dye organs) with a 12 gauge slug and while the armor stopped the slug the damage behind the armor was such that without immediate medical surgery that poor dummy would be dead as stone. I've yet to see susch Newtons second law of motion to be implemented into this game nor do I see the benefits for it.

Also I've never heard of a faceshield to be able to take rifle caliber to face so there's that. Altyn IRL is officially resistant to pistol rounds, not rifle calibers, as far as I know (maybe Russian speakers have more information available to them).

Implementing realistic realworld like armor and body damage systems would probably require new kind of physics and armor plates to be divided into dozens of hit boxes that could fail when shot. I don't think that's feasible as it would tax client and server both tremendously.

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Yeavo

@Starioshka

The armor in your OP seems to be an EOD suit and that is designed to be blast (as in preassure) resistant (not proof). Most rifle calibers have no problem penetrating it. In real world there isn't call of duty -style juggernauts running around.

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Valaska
20 hours ago, Starioshka said:

How does this make any sense?

IRL armor can stop MANY shots repeatedly and a human body can take multiple wounds and survive.

If you're pretending to be one of the "tarkov must be tactical and realistic" crowd you're a dummy for falling for a joke. Armor has to go back to patch 10 and earlier levels when you had to outplay the Fort not just shoot at him like a retarded monkey.

Wat. Have you ever seen what a gun shot wound is actually like in real life? Like in person?

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Thormato
15 minutes ago, Valaska said:

Wat. Have you ever seen what a gun shot wound is actually like in real life? Like in person?

Its like when you fell on your knee and your knee starts bleeding, but when mommy kisses it, its all fine again, didnt you know that? you should watch more movies and read stuff on the internet to get a better education

*Sarcasm off*

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Akeelagi

its a video game guys. clam down with the insults lol. on one hand i agree with OP that you should get a decent advantage for spending 300k on armor, now do i think you should become this walking tank? no. i think the devs needs to add leg armor and see where that goes. that can be the start. and for all you fan boys out there saying this is a realistic game. this game aint got poo on what real is. is it hardcore? yes, ill give it that. and worst case, aim for the legs, as we all know leg meta is an actual real thing in tarkov.

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Valaska
14 minutes ago, Thormato said:

Its like when you fell on your knee and your knee starts bleeding, but when mommy kisses it, its all fine again, didnt you know that? you should watch more movies and read stuff on the internet to get a better education

*Sarcasm off*

lol is this supposed to be clever, witty, or are you intentionally trying to sound like an idiot? You've definitely succeeded, especially since you've added nothing of any worth or asked anything of any value. Crawl back to 4chan, kid.

8 minutes ago, Akeelagi said:

its a video game guys. clam down with the insults lol. on one hand i agree with OP that you should get a decent advantage for spending 300k on armor, now do i think you should become this walking tank? no. i think the devs needs to add leg armor and see where that goes. that can be the start. and for all you fan boys out there saying this is a realistic game. this game aint got poo on what real is. is it hardcore? yes, ill give it that. and worst case, aim for the legs, as we all know leg meta is an actual real thing in tarkov.

A happy balance would be good, but a lot of people are starting to link and quote Nikita outright saying he doesn't care if the game is fun, he wants it realistic as possible... which he's accomplishing neither with the current armor meta. IIIA and IV might be able to survive quite a few rifle caliber rounds, but the person underneath, not so much. Getting shot is a traumatic affair and taking multiple rifle caliber hits or high velocity/joule rounds is going to put you down pretty quickly.

While also having a less gear dependent TTK actually increases the demand of skill in the game and keeps certain players from becoming walking gods who can't be touched by anything outside of 7N9. Which again, is hardly realistic, and it's certainly not fun if you can't dedicated 10+ hours a night like streamers can.

Edited by Valaska
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Thormato
On 9/4/2019 at 11:44 AM, Valaska said:

lol is this supposed to be clever, witty, or are you intentionally trying to sound like an idiot? You've definitely succeeded, especially since you've added nothing of any worth or asked anything of any value. Crawl back to 4chan, kid.

Man, never saw someone who has an Iq below 0, gz for being the first

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Spectator6

IRL is high-rated armor effective? Yes, of course!

But also IRL, it comes with *MAJOR* drawbacks. The most prominent being how severely it cripples one's sense of mobility and comfort.

IMO, if BSG were to further highlight the negatives of wearing heavy plate armor, the rest may very well "take care of itself".

Thoughts?

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jlambvo
6 hours ago, Yeavo said:

There is a reason most military organisations tell you to change you plates if they are hit even once... so I've never heard of a faceshield to be able to take rifle caliber to face so there's that...Implementing realistic realworld like armor and body damage systems would probably require new kind of physics and armor plates to be divided into dozens of hit boxes that could fail when shot. I don't think that's feasible as it would tax client and server both tremendously.

The thing is we are still abstracting a lot of factors out right now. The other side of the issue is that it is just too easy, especially with skill progression, to land shots--especially with full-auto fire. In particular, the ability to reliably make head/face shots. I'm becoming convinced that bullets in FPSs are effectively the size of basketballs the way physics are computed or something.

There are things that could be done to make aiming more difficult so that hits are more realistically rare events and body armor wouldn't need to be exaggerated. It would be really outstanding if the shooting mechanics were such that the meta mirrored real life--to go for center mass versus the head. 

That said, as I understand, leg meta is actually a thing in real life. I worked on a project a while back where we interviewed Marines who fought in Fallujah. Shooting the legs in ambush was apparently a tactic employed by insurgents, seasoned foreign fighters in particular (who had experience fighting Russians in Chechnya for example), to get around the Marines' armor. It had the amplifying effect of disabling a Marine in the open which would draw out others into a field of fire as well. There were actually a number of exchanges described where both sides had surprising difficulty putting each other down in CQC, even reverting to bayonet/knife to finish someone off.

Since we have relatively small player sizes, doing hit detection on armor plates, even internal organ hitboxes and stuff, doesn't seem like it should be that huge overhead. Instead of doing hit detection on 64-100 players, it seems perfectly feasible to model internal ballistics more closely and have a non-stochastic process where you might drop someone in one  round, while someone else could feasibly take several rifle hits that happen to not hit anything vital. 

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Akeelagi
1 hour ago, Valaska said:

A happy balance would be good, but a lot of people are starting to link and quote Nikita outright saying he doesn't care if the game is fun, he wants it realistic as possible... which he's accomplishing neither with the current armor meta. IIIA and IV might be able to survive quite a few rifle caliber rounds, but the person underneath, not so much. Getting shot is a traumatic affair and taking multiple rifle caliber hits or high velocity/joule rounds is going to put you down pretty quickly.

While also having a less gear dependent TTK actually increases the demand of skill in the game and keeps certain players from becoming walking gods who can't be touched by anything outside of 7N9. Which again, is hardly realistic, and it's certainly not fun if you can't dedicated 10+ hours a night like streamers can.

while i will say yes, getting shot sucks in everyway possible. if the armor catches the bullet. youll live, it will hurt like a cutie. it will knock the wind outta yah, break a rib or two but you can still be in the fight. i mean look at the countless stories of people who dont have armor and take 4+ rounds and they still keep going. it happens. i do agree with you that Nikita is taking this game in a direction that i think will eventually lead to the death of the game. thats just my personal thoughts. they do poor design choice after another and expect everyone to be happy. is the game fun? yes. is it one of the most broken games ive ever played? yes. also to all you fan boys out there with the beta stuff. stfu. that poo only works for so long. just a personal pet pev of mine. they have a lot to fix and change. we can only tell them what the community wants and hope they listen.

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Starioshka

@Yeavo

Yes, I was in the military. What you're talking about as you mentioned yourself is soft armor. Try this experiment now:

Take a knife and poke your without anything to cover it

Now put a few layers of cloth on your leg and try to poke it

And lastly put a cutting board on your leg and you can stab it

Rifles don't knock you out when you shoot them do they? Why would you be extremely damaged, as you claim, when you have a much bigger and heavier lump of Kevlar covering MORE territory on your body than your buttstock?

What we need is not extreme Realism or "realism" of one shot one kill, but actual options and choices as to how to take engagements. Blunt damage and armor failing to block low tier rounds is removing those options.

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Yeavo
2 hours ago, Starioshka said:

Rifles don't knock you out when you shoot them do they?

That's because you're holding it close to your body there isn't room to accelerate to the same velocities that a bullet coming out of the barrel is. Remember high school soldier-boy? Remember physics and Newton? Power equals mass times velocity. Lets make an little math exercise here Lapua 7.62x53R Mega weighs 12.0 grams and at 100m its going about 677 meters per second. That means it hits you with a force of 2749.97 Joules which is equal to number of Newton meters and 2749.97 Nm equals 2 028.27378 foot pounds of force your armor is going to have to spread out some of this kinetic energy will continue going straight even if there is no penetration.

Point is you are going to feel getting hit. It might be like getting hit with soft dodgeball or it might feel like getting hit with a sledgehammer depending on bullet speed and weight. But you are going to feel it.

I also was in the military. Do we start comparing O-F O-R or what?

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Valaska
13 hours ago, Starioshka said:

@Yeavo

Yes, I was in the military. What you're talking about as you mentioned yourself is soft armor. Try this experiment now:

Take a knife and poke your without anything to cover it

Now put a few layers of cloth on your leg and try to poke it

And lastly put a cutting board on your leg and you can stab it

Rifles don't knock you out when you shoot them do they? Why would you be extremely damaged, as you claim, when you have a much bigger and heavier lump of Kevlar covering MORE territory on your body than your buttstock?

What we need is not extreme Realism or "realism" of one shot one kill, but actual options and choices as to how to take engagements. Blunt damage and armor failing to block low tier rounds is removing those options.

Gonna be as respectful as I can be since we're both coming from a similar background.

But that knife doesn't exactly have the same joules pcm/2 now does it? You can get broken ribs and even organ trauma while wearing IV. Plate is pretty bad for that, straight up plate etc. There are some layered lamellar like designs with plenty of soft backing, but none of those designs are in the game yet and they're the only ones I've seen that wouldn't hurt like a son of a cutie when you get hit with a rifle caliber round. There's actually a video of a guy getting shot with them from about one meter away, but you can see a MASSIVE amount of soft material behind the plate that actually explodes into the person to disperse the force instead of being just a steel plate smashing against your ribs.

And that layered armor is heavy, bulky, and when it gets shot, you've just lost the ability to bend down even a little bit.

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Arzzet
On 9/3/2019 at 7:37 PM, FallenWarrior60 said:

Armor should be nerfed more than it currently is. Right now it pretty much means you are unkillable if you are any good vs low geared players. If you are dying with a 300k kit often maybe you are just terrible. Armor should be repairable to 100% however it should be uninsurable and unpurchasable past level 3 armor.

This has no sense

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AdhesiveTeflon
On 9/3/2019 at 2:13 PM, Starioshka said:

IRL armor can stop MANY shots repeatedly and a human body can take multiple wounds and survive.

No, it can't.

23 hours ago, Starioshka said:

@Yeavo

Yes, I was in the military. What you're talking about as you mentioned yourself is soft armor. Try this experiment now:

Take a knife and poke your without anything to cover it

Now put a few layers of cloth on your leg and try to poke it

And lastly put a cutting board on your leg and you can stab it

Rifles don't knock you out when you shoot them do they? Why would you be extremely damaged, as you claim, when you have a much bigger and heavier lump of Kevlar covering MORE territory on your body than your buttstock?

What we need is not extreme Realism or "realism" of one shot one kill, but actual options and choices as to how to take engagements. Blunt damage and armor failing to block low tier rounds is removing those options.

This post oozes of POG.

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Starioshka
21 hours ago, Yeavo said:

 That means it hits you with a force of 2749.97 Joules which is equal to number of Newton meters and 2749.97 Nm equals 2 028.27378

"5000 Nm220 lb tackle running 40 yd in 4 sec (100 kg at 10 m/sec)"

Nobody is claiming that you wouldn't feel it. but it wouldn't damage you beyond knocking you back.

@AdhesiveTeflon

Infantry Machine gunner m240. If the human body is as weak as to be obliterated by papercuts how come there are people hit by explosions and missing limbs strutting around just fine?

@Valaska

Trauma pads are standard issue in the military in Europe. That's an extra package of jelly like stuff that goes at the back of your armor plate.

Edited by Starioshka

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Yeavo
1 hour ago, Starioshka said:

If the human body is as weak as to be obliterated by papercuts how come there are people hit by explosions and missing limbs strutting around just fine?

I don't even know how someone can be so unaware of the concept of shock. They are not fine even if they seem to be unaffected. If you've ever met someone who is in a psychological shock you'd notice they aren't exactly there even if they can walk and answer simple questions.

1 hour ago, Starioshka said:

Trauma pads are standard issue in the military in Europe. That's an extra package of jelly like stuff that goes at the back of your armor plate.

Trauma pads deal and dampen (which doesn't mean negate) with deformation, they still let the kinetic energy through.

1 hour ago, Starioshka said:

Infantry Machine gunner m240.

I see the problem here. Care for a box of crayons?

MarineIQ.png.a8a7b5c448ce6cb167cbf28670429d9f.png

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NetRollTUZ
В 03.09.2019 в 22:37, FallenWarrior60 сказал:

Armor should be nerfed more than it currently is. Right now it pretty much means you are unkillable if you are any good vs low geared players.

 I'm wiped account and have no big problems vs geared players with my Vepr-Hunter, what I'm doing wrong ? :D 

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Yeavo
1 minute ago, NetRollTUZ said:

I'm wiped account and have no big problems vs geared players with my Vepr-Hunter, what I'm doing wrong ?

According to some people playing out their power-fantasies everything. That's problem were having here. Some of us think its fine to be able to down a geared player with cheap but effective weaponry. Others think its unfair because they bought expensive armor and didn't get to be invulnerable. Both sides try to argue why their viewpoint is the realistic one because God forbid you should have balance in a video game to ensure some "fun -factor".

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Starioshka

@Yeavo

I'm neither for realism nor "fun".

I want simple chess. You see a guy with big armor? You know that shooting straight at him wont do much, find other solutions. I want options not blurring the lines and making everything ambiguous by adding "blunt damage" which is actually just normal hp pool damage from any other game.

Also " HAHAH XD ur a POG"

"No"

"AHAHA GRAYONS XD"

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