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Starioshka

Armor downgraded.

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Yeavo
2 minutes ago, Starioshka said:

I'm neither for realism nor "fun".

It really seems you aren't for neither, truly. What you want is to play your power-fantasy where your a walking tank nothing can touch.

4 minutes ago, Starioshka said:

I want simple chess. You see a guy with big armor? You know that shooting straight at him wont do much, find other solutions

You know what that chess is? Raise your point of aim and blow his brains out. That's how it is in real life and that's how it should be in this game but instead we get fantasy-helmet -meta and this whining about armor (only the expensive ones, of course) not being God mode. Until real world physics, blunt force trauma and realistic physiological and psychological effects can be added we have to simulate taking hits somehow. (Re)Adding something like aimpunch would probably make you totally sperg out reeeing. I wear armor (6B43, Gen 4, Redut) on my raids and still get occasially killed by a lucky newbie hiding in a bush, yet I'm not complaining about it. Instead I think: "Good for him" and "Serves me right for trusting my armor and taking unnecessary risks on a open like that".

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Valaska
6 hours ago, Starioshka said:

"5000 Nm220 lb tackle running 40 yd in 4 sec (100 kg at 10 m/sec)"

Nobody is claiming that you wouldn't feel it. but it wouldn't damage you beyond knocking you back.

@AdhesiveTeflon

Infantry Machine gunner m240. If the human body is as weak as to be obliterated by papercuts how come there are people hit by explosions and missing limbs strutting around just fine?

@Valaska

Trauma pads are standard issue in the military in Europe. That's an extra package of jelly like stuff that goes at the back of your armor plate.

Oh that sounds interesting, we didn't have anything like that and if you took one in the plate and it's against your ribs... you're either getting a massive bruise or you'd get a cracked rib. High enough velocity and caliber and you can get internal organ damage.

I don't know how effective this gel can be, but all I know is the force of a rifle round on traditional armor is enough to seriously interrupt a person unless you are using some insanely BS armors that cost poo tons and are very cumbersome. I'll have to look up these trauma things to better understand them since I don't have any experience with them, so I can't speak on how effective or ineffective they are. Just that, in a video game like this you should NOT make gear be the end all be all as it is now.

People in real conflicts in real kit get dropped in the first rounds of an engagement because armor is not perfect, even IIIA or IV.

4 hours ago, Yeavo said:

According to some people playing out their power-fantasies everything. That's problem were having here. Some of us think its fine to be able to down a geared player with cheap but effective weaponry. Others think its unfair because they bought expensive armor and didn't get to be invulnerable. Both sides try to argue why their viewpoint is the realistic one because God forbid you should have balance in a video game to ensure some "fun -factor".


This is actually what we're going for here. We don't want BSG to listen to the streamers and such and runaway with gear dominance as they have been. A lot of these streamers want guns like the Vepr Hunter nerfed into the fkn grave, or to take them out of the hands of new players and put them behind high level trades and barters so that they won't lose their 600-900k Rubs gear to a skilled low geared player.

This is what we're against, we're very against this. Skill should matter a whole hell of a lot more than just having a %$&# ton of gear. People like Veritas don't see this, and push for nerfs like what they did to LPS, and BSG listens to the streamer because they think that the streamers fans are all actually players... or the majority of players.

Edited by Valaska
Adde second quote response.
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TechoverMana

From my understanding, the armor you have on your chest, IOTVs and such, should actually be more protective than they are now, realistically. IOTV is NIJ class 4 and can take 6 M80 rounds at a bare minimum as well as 30-06 Armor Piercing.

On the other hand, helmets are far too protective. The Maska is only GOST Level 2, meaning the it really only stops handgun rounds and that's it. Most helmets really only would stop handgun rounds, and only very few. The most cutting edge ones today might stop a single 5.56 or 7.62x39 round. And faceshields even moreso, it's impressive if there are any that can even stop handgun ammo. Pretty much, just cut the level of helmet protection in half and round down, and it'd be about right.

So, realistically, chest armor protection would increase, while head protection would drastically decrease, meaning making those headshots much, much more crucial as anyone with any rifle would be able to consistently one tap anyone in the game if they aim right, even with some of the best helmets around. 

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AdhesiveTeflon
7 hours ago, Starioshka said:

Infantry Machine gunner m240. If the human body is as weak as to be obliterated by papercuts how come there are people hit by explosions and missing limbs strutting around just fine?

Yea, and people have died from knife attacks or survived a car falling on them.  It's just straight sheer luck.  Plenty of people have died from a single shot to the torso.  There's plenty of critical organs in the torso.

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Violent_Nomad

Personally I like how it is. Tarkov is indeed a game based upon a substance of realism. Like it or not, thats how it is. There are many factors that stray away from that, and many more that follow it.

Armor in most instances is pretty effective. The availability of the "better" ammo later into a wipe is what causes people to think its garbage. Try taking on a a guy in full Fort with the ammo readily available at the start and you'll see the difference. That said, literally no helmet nor face shield is capable of stopping multi-hit rifle rounds. This game rewards accuracy over volume of fire. Armor should not be an "I win" button. You are not forced to go into a raid with an overly expensive loadout. More often than not I've had far more fun going in with a relatively light and mobile loadout than going in fully loaded. You just have to be willing to accept the trade-offs in a gunfight and the restricted space for loot you find.

Where I would like to see a change is maybe limits on the amount of high-penetration ammo that can be purchased per trader cycle, or something along those lines to make them a more sought after item. Maybe even make them only craftable now that it seems like that system is getting added soon. I do agree that by the end of a wipe cycle, the market is overly flooded with the "better" ammo to the point you would never need to enter a raid without it. I feel like this invalidates all of the many many other cartridges available in the game, and leads to the topic of discussion by the OP.

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Starioshka
10 hours ago, Valaska said:

This is actually what we're going for here. We don't want BSG to listen to the streamers and such and runaway with gear dominance as they have been. A lot of these streamers want guns like the Vepr Hunter nerfed into the fkn grave, or to take them out of the hands of new players and put them behind high level trades and barters so that they won't lose their 600-900k Rubs gear to a skilled low geared player.

 

This is a wrong opinion, now let me tell you why.

Remember not having anything besides maybe a makarov and barely being able to afford a few mags? Crawling around the bushes, you spot some low tier player, but you know you can't do anything to him at this range even while he's wearing barely a paca. I want this to be the case at all levels of the game, so do the streamers because they're piss bored of zapping everyone in the head without a second thought.

Blurring the lines between high gear and low gear will only make everything mundane and brainless. Yes you will still have to position and prepare, but look at pubg. Every encounter is the exact same if you ignore terrain.

You ARE able to take out the fully geared player with a concrete wall on the upper part of his body, you just have to think and prepare harder for that encounter. Tarkov isn't TDM in the first place.

Edited by Starioshka
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Yeavo

@Starioshka You want every encounter to be different but then you propose a solution that will basically make this into 'who's got the best armor and most effective round' -competition. You say PUBG is boring? Yet you propose an idea which would basically make PvP into something that could just as well be JRPG style turnbased fight:

  • "You use shoot with Mosin Nagant with 7.62x51R LPS gzh"
  • "Starioshkas 6B43 6A stops it"
  • "Starioshka uses HK416 with explosive 5.56 diarrhea"
  • "It's super effective"
  • "You died. Game over. Press start to restart"

Yeah super fun.. I'll pass and I think many others will aswell. Have fun roaming around alone killing only AI-scavs. If I want to play something like this I'll reinstall Jagged Allience 2. Thank you very much.

PS. There's already a Text based RPG set in the Tarkov and Russia 2028 universe on this very forum. You want "chess" based on comparing numerical values without "randomness" caused by pesky skills? Try that one. Might even be fun.

Edited by Yeavo
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jlambvo
12 hours ago, Yeavo said:

If I want to play something like this I'll reinstall Jagged Allience 2. Thank you very much.

That's funny. I've been enamored by EFT precisely because it recalls JA2 so closely in many ways. 

On 9/6/2019 at 1:21 PM, Yeavo said:

You know what that chess is? Raise your point of aim and blow his brains out. That's how it is in real life and that's how it should be in this game

The "meta" in real life, as far as I know, is still shooting center mass (or in some cases, as I referenced elsewhere, the legs if you are on the short end of asymmetric warfare). I understand it to be the exception where you'd actually go for the head primarily. 

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Yeavo
5 hours ago, jlambvo said:

I've been enamored by EFT precisely because it recalls JA2 so closely in many ways. 

JA2 was great! After saying it actually started looking for it. Unfortunately I've seem to have lost mine. Maybe I'll buy it from GOG or steam.

 

5 hours ago, jlambvo said:

The "meta" in real life, as far as I know, is still shooting center mass

Pounding the center mass is the safe bet but because unlike in real life in this game armored bullet sponges don't drop to the ground when shot multiple times you'll have to figure out something else. Going for the legs is viable again to drop but not to kill and I have heard about it as well. A friend in LE swat told me that if center mass isn't an option they'll go for the head in active shooter situations.

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Starioshka

@Yeavo 

Swat fights in close range where head shots are an easy option. 

Now check this situation:

I spawned with grach and level 4 armor as a scav. Stumbled upon a noob sitting in a corner with Killa Mask, Gen4 and RPK loaded with T and Ignolik rounds. He shot me straight in the armor with his T loaded magazine and was unable to kill me while i strafed left and right and shot him at the legs with my pistol. He was punished for his stupidity, I was rewarded for having prepared with good armor and my knowledge that shooting a brick wall on someones chest isn't going to do much.

Why do you want to dumb down EFT?

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Yeavo
19 minutes ago, Starioshka said:

Why do you want to dumb down EFT?

I don't. I want it more realistic.

Lets see: Gen 4 Armor in this game is approximately equal to NIJ-III+ but not quite IV and Killa helmet does have a face mask that is resistant to pistol calibers so I'd say everything seems to be in order here. I see no problems in this. Of course it would be nice to have some greater effects from getting stroke with such a force on your head (blacked screen, blurred vision) but overall, yeah that seems about right.

Ps. some impactful (temporary) stamina penalty for getting shot in the armor would be nice as well.

Edited by Yeavo
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Starioshka

@Yeavo You know that if Tarkov went completely reallistic you wouldn't die from 10 shots to the stomach without Armour right?

Level 6 would be completely impossible to kill only immobilize or nade them.

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Yeavo

@Starioshka 10 shots of even .22lr to stomach will kill you if you don't get medical attention immediately. Heavy internal bleeding, organ rupture, overall nasty poo. You get shot in the stomach you're out. That's where your military buddies come in handy since its their job to get you out of there. Now 7,62x(54R and 51 both) to center mass will duck your insides even with armor on due to kinetic energies they carry. Not a kill, you're still alive but not in a full combat readiness, thus again without help from your buddies you're F***ed. Assuming you didn't get a hit on the other guy. If that happend there's two guys laying around trying to get back up and finish the other one off before crawling to the nearest safe area to get treated.

Edit: In addition:

Consider human anatomy for a moment. What lies behind your stomach? Your spine. If that gets hit you might not be dead but you aren't getting up. Also depending on nade their effectiveness is usually over exaggerated in video games. Flak jackets have no bullet resistant properties to them beyond maybe .22lr yet they are capable of stopping nade fragments. But that's only frags. Also all sorts of covers can be used to effectively stop fragments from getting to you so indoors they are very ineffective. What about HE then? Well HE preassure nade is almost useless outdoors but indoors thrown into a room it rips everything apart from limb to limb. It would be nice to have such physics in this game but I can only imagine the nightmare of implementing such mechanics ingame and don't even want to start to consider what kind of performance drops that would cause, sucking out a lot of fun from this game.

Edited by Yeavo
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GeneralBrus

You know, realism is its own thing, we are living in a very "unbalanced" time right now. ( LOL )

Think about this, bodyarmor hasnt been a thing not too long ago.

It has allways been a matter of " who hits first, wins the fight"

Many players are not aware of the fact that this simple logic of "hit him, down him" doenst work like this anymore. I think the majority of us gamers out there are sick of bulletsponge videogames like call of duty and battlefield. Thats why they look for something realistic, something realy hardcore. Something where you can drop your enemy in 1 or 2 hits.

The thing is we just dont know. 2 Years ago was the first time i heard about hardplates and stuff. I had no idea. Most dont know.

i think there are 3 major types of opinions in the tarkov communitiy about how the gameplay should be, and why they think so allways has a background behind it.

1. fast time to kill on bodyshots. -> background call of duty and battlefield players that want realism.

2. slow time to kill but oneshot headshots. -> background counterstrike and rainbowsix siege players that are done with these games and want realism.

3. 100% realism no compromise. -> milsim freaks that love the military and dont realy care about gameplay as long as it is "real"

Of course we have differend opinions because we all have our own idea how gameplay should be, and we have our own opinion what realism is.

I say let the devs deside, because its their game. But lets also have a good discussion so we can try to find the compromise, so that every one can be happy- if that compromise exists.

 

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GeneralBrus

And btw this here is not helping anyone, so please grow up, every one has the right to have an opinion ffs.

vor 22 Stunden schrieb Starioshka:

This is a wrong opinion, now let me tell you why.

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Valaska
22 hours ago, Starioshka said:

This is a wrong opinion, now let me tell you why.

Remember not having anything besides maybe a makarov and barely being able to afford a few mags? Crawling around the bushes, you spot some low tier player, but you know you can't do anything to him at this range even while he's wearing barely a paca. I want this to be the case at all levels of the game, so do the streamers because they're piss bored of zapping everyone in the head without a second thought.

Blurring the lines between high gear and low gear will only make everything mundane and brainless. Yes you will still have to position and prepare, but look at pubg. Every encounter is the exact same if you ignore terrain.

You ARE able to take out the fully geared player with a concrete wall on the upper part of his body, you just have to think and prepare harder for that encounter. Tarkov isn't TDM in the first place.

No, they don't. Listen to what veritas says, READ what he says. Veritas constantly speaks about how high end gear should instantly put you as such a disadvantage you should never lose against a low geared player. He lead the charge to nerf the Mosin, he lead the charge to nerf, so many fricken effective skill based weapons just because now and then a skills player would be able to outfight him.

He doesn't  give a flying poo about if this game is fun or not. He gives a poo about one thing and one thing only. HIS VIEWERSHIP. This is his major job, and he makes a bunch of money off of it. He wants to be a walking juggernaut (who is rather skilled) getting "mad kill streaks" "fat loots" and extracting. He doesn't care about the average player, he doesn't care about middle tier players. He doesn't give a poo about new player experience... he wants GUNSMITH QUESTS NERFED to make it harder for you to be able to get the stuff that could actually kill him and other insanely geared players. He speaks all the time about locking away the Vepr 101 etc so that you need to be unreasonably high level to get them.

Blurring the lines means skill is more important, which means a lot more fun and interactive gameplay not dependent on if you've put 15 hours investment a day into the game or not. There's NOTHING fun about every ducking engagement coming down to who wore more gear than the other player... how is that not mundane? How is THAT not mindless? Relying on Tier 6 being able to literally eat 14+ 7.62 and face shields that can take 4-5 rounds while you get pelted with rounds from a player who set up a GOOD ambush on you... and then all you need to do is turn and one tap him because you brought 7N1?

 

HOW, is that not mindless? How is that not mundane? That's what's driving so many people away from this game. It sucks.

Edited by Valaska
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Starioshka

@Valaska

Quote

There's NOTHING fun about every ducking engagement coming down to who wore more gear than the other player... 

Because you're playing the game wrong.

You are playing it like call of duty.

Stop doing that.

If you are getting shot at in your general direction you ALREADY fucked up.

@GeneralBrus

It's a joke, grow up.

And what about players who want something interesting for one? Why do you not include us in your list?

I and Streamers don't give a rats ass about "realism". I want options as to how i am able to take each engagement and play the game. Making armor weak just blurs the lines between garbage players who run up to you and starting blasting and never learn from dying and players who outsmart the gear.

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GeneralBrus
vor 7 Minuten schrieb Starioshka:

It's a joke, grow up.

And what about players who want something interesting for one? Why do you not include us in your list?

Sorry mate didnt see the joke here, my fault.

anyways can u pls go more into detail what you consider to be "interesing"? i dont quite understand what you mean

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Yeavo
2 minutes ago, Starioshka said:

Because you're playing the game wrong.

You are playing it like call of duty.

Stop doing that.

I'd say rather like Arma but whatever.

2 minutes ago, Starioshka said:

I want options as to how i am able to take each engagement and play the game.

You mean YOU want to be able to make engagements YOU WIN.

4 minutes ago, Starioshka said:

Making armor weak just blurs the lines between garbage players who run up to you and starting blasting and never learn from dying and players who outsmart the gear.

Isn't ambushing and one or two tapping exactly that? Outsmarting? You the great mighty general want to be a two legged MBT walching around the map invulnerable. You claim people don't suffer form getting limbs ripped off are just fine, you claim people getting shot in their stomach are just fine. You are the absolutely the dumbest and most stubborn idiot I've had the displeasure of coming across in a long while. Yet you claim to be the chess master here. My God what arrogance.

You are a prime example of idiots thinking they're the smartest persons in a room when everyone else is just trying to be polite and not embarrass them.

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Starioshka

@GeneralBrus

Remember the days when you just bought the game and quickly ran out of cash and had to resort to running makarov on customs? Crawling up to Old Gas station and you see a few guys with helmets on looting scavs. You know you won't be able to do anything to them, maybe piss one of them off by breaking his leg when he gets close, so you wait in a bush until they leave and then go take the scraps they left on the scavs.

If makarovs killed gen4's in 4 shots as you people claim to be "reallistic" and "balanced", this way of playing would completely go out of the window since there would be no good reason to do it.

On the other side, what would be the point of buying extremely expensive armour if you can just be shot straight at with a tiny pebble gun and killed? I not only advocate for strong armor, but also bringing back leg meta to it's old state. If you have strong armor you still have that massive weakpoint, you HAVE to play around obstacles to protect one thing uncovered by armour. That's why leg armour would also duck everything up and make it bland and has no place in this game.

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GeneralBrus

Okay before i respond, quick question so that i undersand, do you think armor and loot should be more rare in general?

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GeneralBrus

Okay then, heres how i see it. You like that super loot gameplay, you want to work hard for your stuff and then when you finally got your lvl3+ armor u want to rule the map. You also like beeing low geared and then bam! finally got that max geared guy because you knew where he would go, you outsmarted him so you won, thats what this game wants to be, thats what a lot of people are looking to find in Tarkov.

Armor is OP and you worked hard for that, so you deserved to be powerfull.

You know, i heared the Devs say :" a lot of players dont like helmets to be realistic" that means they might gonna make them stronger again. Now they will make this prewipe event, where you cant put stuff into your container. shooting blacked legs used to be a onehit kill. At one point they nerfed Fortarmor so that even 9mm would destroy it kinda quickly. 

The devs dont know yet what they want, and the playerbase also is not sure yet.

SO heres the thing, all these things have nothing to do with your opinion because:

you like the fight for loot and the different levels of gear in the game. BUT HERES THE PROBLEM: Tell me does it matter how strong armor is if long enough after the wipe everyone will have endgear? it will be the same all over again. it will be a fair fight.

He has the same, i have the same, the better player wins ( mostly) Most players are looking for that, a fair fight.

Your problem is not how the gear is ballanced, your problem is how the gear is different. you want this rock paper scissors gameplay. BUT you seem to miss something. having better gear then your enemy has nothing to do with that.

It seems to me that you are complaining about the wrong things. I think the only way to make you happy would be regular character Wipes, but i am very sure the Devs said, there are not gonna be any wipes after the game is out of Beta.

I am one of the players that like a fair fight, and to make all the gear have its place in the game, it needs to be able to defet armor, OR we revive the legmeta.

Or something our Milsim realism people would like: lets make lvl3+ and lvl4 armor VERY rare, so you  cant buy it you have to find it.

The devs can change sooo many things that still would be realistic.

They could make weapons realy cheap or realy expensive, In a warzone like Tarkov the reallife marked price doesnt have to be what the gameprices are.

So or so, i think we need a good base gameplay with fair gear. but thats just what i want.

 

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FallenWarrior60
On 9/6/2019 at 11:51 AM, Arzzet said:

This has no sense

It makes perfect sense. I ran into factory with a buddy for an entire day with full gear and didn't lose anything. That's problematic. 300k worth of armor means you can take at least 10+ rounds and then throw a bit of gauze over the wound and be fine. If you are consistently dying with lots of armor you just suck ass at FPS games. Personally throwing on a GEN 4 and FAST MT faceshield makes you a unkillable tank unless your opponent has similar gear.

2 hours ago, GeneralBrus said:

Okay then, heres how i see it. You like that super loot gameplay, you want to work hard for your stuff and then when you finally got your lvl3+ armor u want to rule the map. You also like beeing low geared and then bam! finally got that max geared guy because you knew where he would go, you outsmarted him so you won, thats what this game wants to be, thats what a lot of people are looking to find in Tarkov.

Armor is OP and you worked hard for that, so you deserved to be powerfull.

You know, i heared the Devs say :" a lot of players dont like helmets to be realistic" that means they might gonna make them stronger again. Now they will make this prewipe event, where you cant put stuff into your container. shooting blacked legs used to be a onehit kill. At one point they nerfed Fortarmor so that even 9mm would destroy it kinda quickly. 

The devs dont know yet what they want, and the playerbase also is not sure yet.

SO heres the thing, all these things have nothing to do with your opinion because:

you like the fight for loot and the different levels of gear in the game. BUT HERES THE PROBLEM: Tell me does it matter how strong armor is if long enough after the wipe everyone will have endgear? it will be the same all over again. it will be a fair fight.

He has the same, i have the same, the better player wins ( mostly) Most players are looking for that, a fair fight.

Your problem is not how the gear is ballanced, your problem is how the gear is different. you want this rock paper scissors gameplay. BUT you seem to miss something. having better gear then your enemy has nothing to do with that.

It seems to me that you are complaining about the wrong things. I think the only way to make you happy would be regular character Wipes, but i am very sure the Devs said, there are not gonna be any wipes after the game is out of Beta.

I am one of the players that like a fair fight, and to make all the gear have its place in the game, it needs to be able to defet armor, OR we revive the legmeta.

Or something our Milsim realism people would like: lets make lvl3+ and lvl4 armor VERY rare, so you  cant buy it you have to find it.

The devs can change sooo many things that still would be realistic.

They could make weapons realy cheap or realy expensive, In a warzone like Tarkov the reallife marked price doesnt have to be what the gameprices are.

So or so, i think we need a good base gameplay with fair gear. but thats just what i want.

 

The flaw in your logic is assuming everyone will have endgame gear all the time. They wont realistically lots of people are bad at this game and get shat on regularly by other players meaning they are broke. What would be the problem with an armor nerf after all we would still be on an even playing ground but geared players should be able to die to unarmored opponents if they are ambushed and the unarmored guy hits their shots. When I am in full gear I just run around and listen to music because I know even if I start getting shot I can just keep running to cover and slap on a bandage and be completely fine.

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GeneralBrus
vor 7 Minuten schrieb FallenWarrior60:

The flaw in your logic is assuming everyone will have endgame gear all the time.

Well you are somewhat right here. I did asume that everyone will have endgame gear, but i didnt say all the time.

come one, IF the game stays like this with how easy it is to make 1 million rubles doing some hatched runs,

then yes 100% almost every player will have endgame gear.

as i said after the game is out, no more wipes.

however you are right, the lootpool could change and the devs talked about less loot in general.

i am talking about the current loot/farm ballance of the game.

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