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Starioshka

Armor downgraded.

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MECTb_3A_DEDOB
16 минут назад, Starioshka сказал:

There's no way to get shot anywhere but your shoulders.

No, I didn't prove your point of view. Of course there are different-sized plates by the way. And THERE IS way to get hit anywhere except the plate. Where did you get the stomach ballistic plate? As I know there is only one frontal armor plate.

Another pic just for a ballistic meme (size X-LARGE? is there a bigger size?).

image.png.1504ef7aa14fcba5c71b2133a7721d16.png


According to this study (https://7arlan.kz/sibz/) statistic shows that during conventional combat 68% of wounds are the limbs, 12% head and neck and 20% the body. Because soldiers peek from cover to make a shot. During CQC due to 100% exposure to enemy fire chances of head and neck wounds increase up to 30%.

And consider the hands please, I don't think that anyone can shoot without working hands.

Ah I also forgot that Tarkov is about helmets with unrealistic protection so no realistic CQC for you kids.

Edited by MECTb_3A_DEDOB

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MECTb_3A_DEDOB
36 минут назад, Starioshka сказал:

And your post with the picture is displaying american airsofter/ LARPer armor, nobody wears anything as flimsy as that bikini in actual combat.

And what the fuf? What does airsofter mean? He shows us the plate. The plate is not so big actually, and protects even worse if soldier is turned 15-20 degrees to the enemy (because percent of exposed area). Extra large size (280×356мм) looks on me like on this ukrainian guy.
image.png.c5f6b465462f7d32e36dc51830d91a50.png
image.png.e42688365c11062bab265a5a6ae40a70.png

Edited by MECTb_3A_DEDOB

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AdhesiveTeflon
38 minutes ago, Starioshka said:

@MECTb_3A_DEDOB Thanks a lot for proving my point mate. These kids need to learn a thing or two about actual physics and watch less movies of blonde girls killing armored SWAT juggernauts with a single shot from a pistol.

Of course you will replace something that has been damaged, why are you even bringing it up? Lower protection? Yes, marginally.

And your post with the picture is displaying american airsofter/ LARPer armor, nobody wears anything as flimsy as that bikini in actual combat. The plates I carried covered your entire stomach and chest + 2 smaller side plates. There's no way to get shot anywhere but your shoulders.

Yep, just keep proving us you don't know anything and you stating "american airsofter/LARPer" makes you sound more like an idiot, as if there aren't airsofters in other parts of the world.

The standard issue USMC infantry is issued an IOTV with front, back, and side SAPI plates.  The side of the actual SAPI plates themselves are much smaller than what the plate carrier covers (~75% smaller.)  There are plenty of places where a normal ball round will penetrate without even hitting the SAPI plate.

SOF will consistently go out with nothing but a plate carrier with front and back SAPI plate with no sides.  This includes but is not limited to USMC Recon/MARSOC, SEALs, and Rangers; and don't tell me they don't because I've seen it.  Private military contractors normally go out with about the same amount of protection, seemingly opting for comfort over protection.

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MECTb_3A_DEDOB
11 минуту назад, AdhesiveTeflon сказал:

SOF will consistently go out with nothing but a plate carrier with front and back SAPI plate with no sides.  This includes but is not limited to USMC Recon/MARSOC, SEALs, and Rangers; and don't tell me they don't because I've seen it.  Private military contractors normally go out with about the same amount of protection, seemingly opting for comfort over protection.

Because only plates protect from rifle fire. They (SOF, PMC, others) don't need frag protection very much, most soldiers in conventional battle died of fragments from artillery shells. That's why soldiers wear these big vests now and when people don't need heavy frag protection they, obviously, don't use it.

Edited by MECTb_3A_DEDOB

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AdhesiveTeflon
14 minutes ago, MECTb_3A_DEDOB said:

Because only plates protect from rifle fire. They (SOF, PMC, others) don't need frag protection very much, most soldiers in conventional battle died of fragments from artillery shells. That's why soldiers wear these big vests now and when people don't need heavy frag protection they, obviously, don't use it.

Firstly I would like to correct myself, USMC got the SPC, not the IOTV that was used by the Army.

Fortunately or unfortunately the world hasn't seen a conventional war since...the first Desert Storm I think?  The best description I can give is when the USMC moved from the MTV (modular tactical vest) to include the SPC.  The MTV offered more protection but it was grossly big bulky - the line companies hated it so the SPC was developed for them with less protection overall but was a lot easier to get in/out and offered loads more mobility.  Infantry that were more mobile (humvees, calvary) and motor T guys wore the MTV because they walked less but needed greater protection against IEDs and explosive rounds.

Most SOF deployed in afghanistan don't wear side plates because they're too cumbersome and restrictive, especially at the altitudes where the mountains are on the border with Pakistan.  They move really fast and anything they don't deem they need gets left behind.  SOF gets to chose what they want to wear most of the time anyways, they don't like it when people tell them what to do.

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Thydraconis

most the helmets and armor in irl is ment to stop shrapnel and falling debris, ceramic strike plates are only meant to receive 1-2  bullets before being rendered useless. Most modern helmets won't stop a 5.56 from going right through your head and out the back of the helmet, judging most the armor in the game, it is ment for "cowboy ops", when you square up so people well shoot you in the chest thus utilizing the strike plates while protecting your Kevlar covered sides, since Kevlar will not really stop much

As a tanker, if anything I need to worry about hits me, my body armor is ment to keep my body in enough shape that they can recover something to put in a box, and its the same armor the infantry gets.

going into deeper detail, the smaller 5.56 based round is ment to incapacitate, so if 1 person is hit they well survive long enough that more people need to extract them, removing more people from a firefight, where 7.62 based rounds are more of a kill outright. So really they should implement a  "down but not out" with a timer so people are forced to decide on returning fire, or risk saving your friend, leading into other tactic situations

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PuddleMurda

@Starioshka

I am not sure why YOU liked my post, but it was probably your obviously deluded grandiosity that got the better of you.

 

@AdhesiveTeflon and the rest of you...

I admire your patience and tenacity. Having this discussion over and over with the never ending influx of lost, pop culture conditioned, self-proclaimed experts on ballistics and physics, that simply can't factor in real life likelihood/probability to their already irrationally f*cked up excuses for arguments. 

You guys must be wearing mental Fort Armor and Altyns.

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whitetiger85
On 9/4/2019 at 11:13 AM, Valaska said:

Wat. Have you ever seen what a gun shot wound is actually like in real life? Like in person?

 

On 9/6/2019 at 2:25 AM, Valaska said:

Gonna be as respectful as I can be since we're both coming from a similar background.

But that knife doesn't exactly have the same joules pcm/2 now does it? You can get broken ribs and even organ trauma while wearing IV. Plate is pretty bad for that, straight up plate etc. There are some layered lamellar like designs with plenty of soft backing, but none of those designs are in the game yet and they're the only ones I've seen that wouldn't hurt like a son of a cutie when you get hit with a rifle caliber round. There's actually a video of a guy getting shot with them from about one meter away, but you can see a MASSIVE amount of soft material behind the plate that actually explodes into the person to disperse the force instead of being just a steel plate smashing against your ribs.

And that layered armor is heavy, bulky, and when it gets shot, you've just lost the ability to bend down even a little bit.

To be fair, remember the North Hollywood shootout? They had been shot many many times.  Sure, they were wearing makeshift armor, but it wasn't anything like the armors used in the game.  They still died after a while of being shot by 9mm and I think later on they were shot by either 5.56 or .223.  If I remember one of them had gotten shot 20 times in the legs due to them not being able to penetrate the home made vest, and then he only bled out due to two major bullet wounds in those legs.  People can handle gun shots, probably not as many AK rounds but certainly I think they should be able to handle a bit more with armor in the game.  If you get one shot by a rifle round, then what would the point of being taking the heavier armors?  They just cost you more in the long run, and would be practically useless.  

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Killinkyle

Thought I'd add this bit in.

 

My pal was in the Marines, he was a Corpsman. He recalled a story of me of how he was walking with his squad when he got hit from a block away with an SVD round right in the center of the chest.

His plate carried saved his life, but he recalls how he instantly dropped to the floor. Two ribs broken. He was laying there wheezing and passing in and out and said he passed out and woke up hours later in a field hospital.

It doesn't matter how tough your armor is. Will it save your life? Yes. Will it keep you in the fight? Almost certainly not.

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PuddleMurda
6 hours ago, Killinkyle said:

It doesn't matter how tough your armor is. Will it save your life? Yes. Will it keep you in the fight? Almost certainly not.

Whoa... what bruuuuh??? 

A plate carrier can take at least 30 hits from standard 5.56 NATO, and a minimum of 5 hits from .308... also getting hit five times is nothing yo. I had a buddy who was trippin' on bathsalts. He was shot 15 times, and still chewed the cops' faces off. True story yo. 

When I was in the army I shouldered that Pecheneg and shot full auto groupings with less than 3 inches spread at 100 yards. The weight of the weapon, and you know, physics yo..  bruuuuuh, c'mon man. 

Man... by the way, I took a 50 cal to the head once too... lucky I had my airframe on, otherwise I might have had to visit the infirmary. Hot chicks there tho, am I right?!

Yeah boi, realism bruuuuh. You CoD nerds can't even take a rifle round hit without complaining.. weak bruh

 

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AdhesiveTeflon
6 hours ago, PuddleMurda said:

Whoa... what bruuuuh??? 

A plate carrier can take at least 30 hits from standard 5.56 NATO, and a minimum of 5 hits from .308... also getting hit five times is nothing yo. I had a buddy who was trippin' on bathsalts. He was shot 15 times, and still chewed the cops' faces off. True story yo. 

When I was in the army I shouldered that Pecheneg and shot full auto groupings with less than 3 inches spread at 100 yards. The weight of the weapon, and you know, physics yo..  bruuuuuh, c'mon man. 

Man... by the way, I took a 50 cal to the head once too... lucky I had my airframe on, otherwise I might have had to visit the infirmary. Hot chicks there tho, am I right?!

Yeah boi, realism bruuuuh. You CoD nerds can't even take a rifle round hit without complaining.. weak bruh

 

Pffft, noobs.  Just equip a shield.

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Thydraconis
7 hours ago, PuddleMurda said:

Whoa... what bruuuuh??? 

A plate carrier can take at least 30 hits from standard 5.56 NATO, and a minimum of 5 hits from .308... also getting hit five times is nothing yo. I had a buddy who was trippin' on bathsalts. He was shot 15 times, and still chewed the cops' faces off. True story yo. 

When I was in the army I shouldered that Pecheneg and shot full auto groupings with less than 3 inches spread at 100 yards. The weight of the weapon, and you know, physics yo..  bruuuuuh, c'mon man. 

Man... by the way, I took a 50 cal to the head once too... lucky I had my airframe on, otherwise I might have had to visit the infirmary. Hot chicks there tho, am I right?!

Yeah boi, realism bruuuuh. You CoD nerds can't even take a rifle round hit without complaining.. weak bruh

 

 

31 minutes ago, AdhesiveTeflon said:

Pffft, noobs.  Just equip a shield.

ha. weaklings, have you tired just not getting shot. works great for me irl. i suggest trying it

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AdhesiveTeflon
23 minutes ago, Thydraconis said:

 

ha. weaklings, have you tired just not getting shot. works great for me irl. i suggest trying it

Real men get shot!

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MECTb_3A_DEDOB
Posted (edited)

Tankov thinks THIS is armor plate (same goes with frag protection that counts as armor plate lol what). That one hit under right hand.

Again, there are two ways of making realistic armor in videogames, complicated realistic and statistically realistic (none of them is "bad", every comes in handy in different gameplay types). Tarkov uses none of them.

510477149_2019-10-0122-46_-574.9-32.3-142.2_0.0-0_40_00.9(0).thumb.png.834ad66d7fffad729177d0424ae33671.png

Edited by MECTb_3A_DEDOB

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Thydraconis
7 hours ago, AdhesiveTeflon said:

Real men get shot!

What do you mean? How do you get shot, its physically impossible for a true real man to get shot, bullets just avoid you out of fear.

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Starioshka
Posted (edited)

@MECTb_3A_DEDOB

Larpers and americans.

This is what an actual plate carrier looks. Covers entire front.

Also you are trained to not stand sideways so you don't get shot in your uncovered parts, not that is even actually possible to do that since you have to put your rifle butt pretty much on your chest to fire comfortably.

And by "proving my point" I'm talking about the video which you clearly forgot to watch and nobody else but me did.,

 

Lithuanian gear.jpg

 

 

Quote

I admire your patience and tenacity. Having this discussion over and over with the never ending influx of lost, pop culture conditioned, self-proclaimed experts on ballistics and physics, that simply can't factor in real life likelihood/probability to their already irrationally f*cked up excuses for arguments. 

@PuddleMurda Exactly my thoughts mate.

 

Quote

Again, there are two ways of making realistic armor in videogames, complicated realistic and statistically realistic (none of them is "bad", every comes in handy in different gameplay types). Tarkov uses none of them.

@AdhesiveTeflon "Why isn't armor just a bigger HP pool!? I want sponge enemies!"

Edited by Starioshka

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AdhesiveTeflon
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Starioshka said:

@MECTb_3A_DEDOB

Larpers and americans.

This is what an actual plate carrier looks. Covers entire front.

Also you are trained to not stand sideways so you don't get shot in your uncovered parts, not that is even actually possible to do that since you have to put your rifle butt pretty much on your chest to fire comfortably.

And by "proving my point" I'm talking about the video which you clearly forgot to watch and nobody else but me did.,

@AdhesiveTeflon "Why isn't armor just a bigger HP pool!? I want sponge enemies!"

Jesus christ you sound like a boot.  You're the one trying to argue that armor needs to be unrealistically stronger and that "100K should feel like 100K" when you're clearly in the wrong.  Your video proves nothing other than a guy being shot by civilian ball pistol rounds.

Here's what a SAPI plate covers, and I'll even use your own picture.  See how much is not covered by the SAPI plate?  You want to tell me again how SAPI plates cover your whole body?

image.png.d4b3c94fb23b119a531181d7ba65154e.png

 

Here's a picture of MARSOC with where the SAPI plates would be.  He's using the standard issue SPC with side SAPIs.  A lot of SOFs don't use the side.  Picture courtesy of Nick Kourmalatsos www.nickkoumalatsos.com:

image.png.cc364c6f9a57ab3b0b9930849c7a3913.png

 

And here's one from one of my buddy's latest deployment with the issued SPC:

image.png.1e1150ce77f223b26eaab891937d3fdf.png

 

Here's a youtube video of a 7.62x54R API rounds vs a SAPI plate

 

Edited by AdhesiveTeflon
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Spectator6
53 minutes ago, AdhesiveTeflon said:

Jesus christ you sound like a boot.  You're the one trying to argue that armor needs to be unrealistically stronger and that "100K should feel like 100K" when you're clearly in the wrong.  Your video proves nothing other than a guy being shot by civilian ball pistol rounds.

Here's what a SAPI plate covers, and I'll even use your own picture.  See how much is not covered by the SAPI plate?  You want to tell me again how SAPI plates cover your whole body?

image.png.d4b3c94fb23b119a531181d7ba65154e.png

 

Here's a picture of MARSOC with where the SAPI plates would be.  He's using the standard issue SPC with side SAPIs.  A lot of SOFs don't use the side.  Picture courtesy of Nick Kourmalatsos www.nickkoumalatsos.com:

image.png.cc364c6f9a57ab3b0b9930849c7a3913.png

 

And here's one from one of my buddy's latest deployment with the issued SPC:

image.png.1e1150ce77f223b26eaab891937d3fdf.png

 

Here's a youtube video of a 7.62x54R API rounds vs a SAPI plate

 

Great visuals @AdhesiveTeflon!

Though I gotta be careful here, all of this chatter is making me really hopeful that BSG models proper hitzones for plates. They say it's coming and I can't upvote that possibility enough!

IMO, this will help the game represent armor for its intended purposes. It's not meant to make some invincible. It's to reduce the likelihood of a receiving a killshot in a vital area, thus increasing the lifesaving chances of medical attention.

But incapacitation or being rendered combat ineffective? That's a whole other can of worms! Maybe BSG can model it to some degree with a mix of unconscious states and pain effects/repercussions?

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MECTb_3A_DEDOB
2 часа назад, Starioshka сказал:

This is what an actual plate carrier looks. Covers entire front.

"I served in Army" guys be like: NYLON CLOTH STOPS RIFLE BULLETS! Just go away and google what protection class is and what protection class does armor vest have without freaking armor plate. What are you here?!

And if you would read my post you would notice a little translation of what they say in the end of the video "we won't show you what happened to the vest and to our ribs" in the right context. And they shot the armor right in the armor plate. Armor plate. Armor plate. Armor plate. Armor plate.

Once more for "I served in Army" guys -  armor plate.

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Starioshka

@AdhesiveTeflon Again i'm not an american.

We use type lll plates, not flimsy civilian protectors.

And I don't see your point, the plates cover absolutely every vital part in your drawings as they are designed to do.

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MECTb_3A_DEDOB
2 минуты назад, Starioshka сказал:

the plates cover absolutely every vital part

It doesn't cover stomach, neck, sides of frontal body silhouette. Also hands. I suppose you can't shoot without working hands. At least in real life.

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AdhesiveTeflon
Posted (edited)
32 minutes ago, Starioshka said:

@AdhesiveTeflon Again i'm not an american.

We use type lll plates, not flimsy civilian protectors.

And I don't see your point, the plates cover absolutely every vital part in your drawings as they are designed to do.

Our standard issued eSAPI plates are level 4.  The old SAPI plates were level 3 - I think they were used in the initial invasion of Iraq before brass decided that we needed better protection against 7.62x54R snipers but I can't confirm that.  The plates cover most of the vital organs but that's from a straight-on shot.  The sides are still completely exposed; as well as shoulders, stomach, many blood arteries; and any follow up shots hitting within close proximity of the first hit will definitely tear straight through the armor.

Here's a wiki photo of the MTV that the SPC augments.  It's closer in pattern and size to what a lot of military world-wide are using now.  The soft kevlar padding covers more area for shrapnel protection but the armor plates are the same standard issued SAPI plates so rifle round protection isn't actually better.  It's comfier than the old Interceptor body armor that were given as hand-me-downs to the Afghan and Iraq guys though.  You can kind of see the outline of the plates in the actual Wiki picture too.

image.png.42872a6a0c68e30be5cc06a21627045a.png

 

Here's one I just found.  You can clearly see the SAPI plate outline through the vest.

image.png.bcc0eba65930dd8cbb2e68525ad79ca4.png

Edited by AdhesiveTeflon
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Valaska
Posted (edited)
On 9/30/2019 at 7:02 PM, whitetiger85 said:

 

To be fair, remember the North Hollywood shootout? They had been shot many many times.  Sure, they were wearing makeshift armor, but it wasn't anything like the armors used in the game.  They still died after a while of being shot by 9mm and I think later on they were shot by either 5.56 or .223.  If I remember one of them had gotten shot 20 times in the legs due to them not being able to penetrate the home made vest, and then he only bled out due to two major bullet wounds in those legs.  People can handle gun shots, probably not as many AK rounds but certainly I think they should be able to handle a bit more with armor in the game.  If you get one shot by a rifle round, then what would the point of being taking the heavier armors?  They just cost you more in the long run, and would be practically useless.  

Being one shot is a sort of far cry from what we're asking here. When they did finally manage to get some actual rifles (they had to go to a gun store and were using civilian ammo, even, because the police didn't have their own...) one of the guys was killed pretty much immediately in that fire fight.

So while you shouldn't be shot in 1 round and killed... it shouldn't take 15-20 rounds of military grade munitions to take a person down in IV. It's not particularly realistic, and its not good for the game either because it takes the game from player skill based to gear checks. I just watched a deadly slob video where the guy was getting his butt kicked in engagement after engagement (he's a good player, but people were outplaying him hard) but everytime he walked through because he was in either Killa or IV. Like his entire body being redded out and the only reason he's walking away, is because he had better armor.

It's just... pretty crappy atm tbh. You can lay amazing ambushes, you can outmanuver, out play, out aim the other guy. But if you don't have a particularly expensive and hard as heck ammo to get without playing the game for freaking months... you're just screwed. I do agree with you that 1 round should not take you down when you have IV or V, or even IIIA depending on where it hits you and what caliber of round... but again, no one here is asking for specifically that. We want the meta to be brought down to a point where its sensible and not making a gear check combat system. We might as well be playing a tab targeted shooter at that point.

 

@AdhesiveTeflon I freaking love that name lol. But there's a game called WW3 in conflict and it actually has a pretty decent simulation of armor. It has accurate hit zones and pretty much any shot with anything center mass that hits a person puts them down permanently. It's about 3-6 rounds (angle&type factor) to a plate and it incapacitates a person with 5.56, larger rounds do more damage through armor. The plates lose their protective value rapidly beyond that.

Edited by Valaska

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Starioshka
Quote

 You can lay amazing ambushes, you can outmanuver, out play, out aim the other guy. But if you don't have a particularly expensive and hard as heck ammo to get without playing the game for freaking months...

Flea market exist.

And you're not laying any good ambushes and are missing all your shots because it takes at most 8 shots (with the most penetrating ammo) or 4 on average (with pistol calibers) to take out a guy to the legs.

The cheaper ammo is even better for this since it does more damage.

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dskpnk

Anyway we have to wait and see the medical system coming with the hideout, for now stating about armors is quite irrevellant cause being wounded have no repercutions, but when you will have to heal etc etc

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