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Tabasco

Everyone is talking about secure containers and the new engine, meanwhile skills have been needing addressing for over a year

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Tabasco

I've played since before skills even existed.

Since day 1 of their introduction, players wanted to play around with and test the impact skills (and their perks) will have on gameplay. And yet, some skills leveled so slowly that even the most dedicated players would never max them.

This persists to today. This isn't a secret, it's a well known thing. Veritas and Pestily brought it up in their podcast a couple of weeks ago. Pestily joked recently that with his level 70 character his covert movement is at level 3.

A few wipes back there was a glitch allowing you to max out your strength. I don't condone glitching, but in this case it's only by doing this glitch that we got a look at how game changing the skill is. At max strength you run *TWICE* as fast. Your grenades get thrown significantly further.

I don't know if other skills have as much impact as this, and that's the whole point. Why, if this is pre-release, is the game designed in a way which PREVENTS testing of a feature which they spent time adding? Imagine if BSG added a map or a weapon which only ~1% could play on / use? Why implement it at all if it isn't useable?

Perhaps buff the speed at which skills are gained or contract the max skill level from 50 down to 20, but keep the pace of leveling.

Edited by Tabasco
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johncage213

the skills arent fully implemented so no point to test what is not there

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saibot0
2 minutes ago, johncage213 said:

the skills arent fully implemented so no point to test what is not there

Most of them already have their effects, just no way to really lvl them

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Thormato

They are meant to take months to level up, not hours, people who have a skill on Elite, did abuse something.

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mattywatty2012
7 minutes ago, Thormato said:

They are meant to take months to level up, not hours, people who have a skill on Elite, did abuse something.

so you're saying that people at lvl 70 who have a skill at lvl 3 are leveling that skill at a satisfactory rate?

While also admitting that that skill is so useless at lvl 50 it wont impact how people play the game?

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Thormato

Skills fit to your playstyle, did you ever see pestily play? i never see him sneaking around, how the in the world would it make sense that he has a elite skill of an skill he doesnt use? Did you see his other skill levels the once he uses? they are all lvl 30 or higher. So yes, a person level 70 with a skill lvl 3 is a satisfactory rate, because you cant be good at something you dont train

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CooH1e2
23 minutes ago, Thormato said:

Skills fit to your playstyle, did you ever see pestily play? i never see him sneaking around, how the in the world would it make sense that he has a elite skill of an skill he doesnt use? Did you see his other skill levels the once he uses? they are all lvl 30 or higher. So yes, a person level 70 with a skill lvl 3 is a satisfactory rate, because you cant be good at something you dont train

Totally agree. In fact it makes total sense for me and shows that skills are linked to your actions and playstyle and not by the earned XP.

Regarding the initial questions

6 hours ago, Tabasco said:

Why, if this is pre-release, is the game designed in a way which PREVENTS testing of a feature which they spent time adding? Imagine if BSG added a map or a weapon which only ~1% could play on / use? Why implement it at all if it isn't useable?

I think the skills is not the main concern / issue at the moment for BSG. They are testing and adjusting some features... but there are a lot of skills not working yet and some others with nonsense effects until other things are implemented (for example metabolism).

So IMO the answer is... this is not a pre-release version but a BETA and it seems they don't care much about skills at this moment of development because they have other priorities. They have already something implemented for future testing.

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Tabasco
14 hours ago, Thormato said:

They are meant to take months to level up, not hours, people who have a skill on Elite, did abuse something.

You got this from where exactly? This strike me as a rationalization. If we're going to make conjectures, why isn't it more reasonable to assume that the game as is =/= the final product, such that in the final product skills would take longer to max vs. now? I once saw a guy complain that traders get leveled up too quickly, and one response he got was "well that's cause it's beta, it won't be like that in 1.0". Amazing how easy it is to make a case where you're just baking assumptions into the cake.

15 hours ago, johncage213 said:

the skills arent fully implemented so no point to test what is not there

I invite you to actually read up on their effects

https://escapefromtarkov.gamepedia.com/Character_skills

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Thormato
8 minutes ago, Tabasco said:

I once saw a guy complain that traders get leveled up too quickly, and one response he got was "well that's cause it's beta, it won't be like that in 1.0". Amazing how easy it is to make a case where you're just baking assumptions into the cake.

well if you are that ignorant to understand that this is true, you either dont belong here or you are just a troll

Guess what, traders also will be findable on the maps and not in your cozy little main menu

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TheColdVein

The only way that you would make skills level up a whole lot faster, would be to make this game only what it is right now. This game is a test build. There will be a way longer progression than there is right now. You will have to discover traders in their own maps--after you complete story and survive the raids in each map to unlock the next map which will be progressively harder than the previous one. That's what the game will be, not a loot and shoot.

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Valaska

Well I am gonna be brash. Why should we care about skills? Yeah it is crappy that people who play 24/7 can jump, shoot, etc several times better than anyone... it takes A LOT OF THE SKILL out of the game, for sure. But what you really want to be fixed right now should be the engine and the armor meta tbh.

There's much more pressing matters to address before skills imo. Armor meta is ridiculous, the engine is the most important thing along with the network program, and new player experience should be addressed first imo. To be honest, skills should just be removed from a "skill based" game.

Edited by Valaska

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headbanger203

Lets be honest, the skills suck and BSG has ignored them for quite a while.

There doesn't need to be a massive discussion about it but I personally would like BSG to either implement them properly and actually balance the skills or just disable them. BSG can change the xp gains and reset skill progress without wipes* so it could be worked on mid wipe one at a time, sort of like how the containers are being changed for the prewipe event.

Granted the rather lackluster skill system has been ignored to bring us more content and a engine upgrade but it's been a while since the skills have had some love, though if the skills are worked on they need to be completely remade and the bonuses reduced while the xp gains are adjusted accordingly.

*I believe it was 0.8 or 0.9 where you gained 1 point of strength for every jump which was changed and people were reset without a wipe

Edited by headbanger203

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Hamm

bigger issues....lag, stutters, lock ups. those issues > skills

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Tabasco
2 hours ago, Thormato said:

well if you are that ignorant to understand that this is true, you either dont belong here or you are just a troll

Guess what, traders also will be findable on the maps and not in your cozy little main menu

Someone needs a time out

16 hours ago, Thormato said:

Skills fit to your playstyle, did you ever see pestily play? i never see him sneaking around, how the in the world would it make sense that he has a elite skill of an skill he doesnt use? Did you see his other skill levels the once he uses? they are all lvl 30 or higher. So yes, a person level 70 with a skill lvl 3 is a satisfactory rate, because you cant be good at something you dont train

Let's see if this is either A) a well-intentioned response which takes other factors into consideration or B) something you are just throwing out for the sake of argument.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mm6a-jmO43k

Pestily literally says that a skill which is specifically required by a quest required 20 hours of him farming on shoreline. This is the search skill. So here in this game with dozens of skills, *one* skill took 20 hours of grind? This isn't something Pestily hardly does, so you can't say "well how often do you see him search things?" And to what level do you think this grind got him? Elite? 50? 40 at least? No. Twelve. Twelve. Difference here is the search skill is relatively inconsequential compared to vitality, str, end, recoil control and others. Point being, your supposed rule of "skills never used = not leveled" doesn't hold, and anyone who has even glossed over how to level the skills ought to know that.

2 hours ago, Valaska said:

Well I am gonna be brash. Why should we care about skills? Yeah it is crappy that people who play 24/7 can jump, shoot, etc several times better than anyone... it takes A LOT OF THE SKILL out of the game, for sure. But what you really want to be fixed right now should be the engine and the armor meta tbh.

There's much more pressing matters to address before skills imo. Armor meta is ridiculous, the engine is the most important thing along with the network program, and new player experience should be addressed first imo. To be honest, skills should just be removed from a "skill based" game.

This isn't about whether skills take "skill" out of the game. Skills are a feature of the game, that's a fact. The game is in beta, that's a fact. So why should they not be tested?

And as everyone here has long been saying since alpha, fixing 1 thing doesn't take away from fixing another. I complained once about how they are adding drinking animations before fixing network issues. I was (rightly) pointed out that it's not the same team working on those two different issues.

Moreover we're literally talking about value editing here. Not adding, not removing, not even altering mechanisms. You're talking about changing values gained for things like "rounds chambered -> +0.8xp" to a different xp value.

As for why you should care, simply look at what leveled skills can actually do.

17 minutes ago, Hamm said:

bigger issues....lag, stutters, lock ups. those issues > skills

Not mutually exclusive to address, networking team is not the same as animation team, is not the same as sound team, etc. Moreover, we're talking about literally changing values in a table for xp gain.

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bigbacon
20 hours ago, TheColdVein said:

The only way that you would make skills level up a whole lot faster, would be to make this game only what it is right now. This game is a test build. There will be a way longer progression than there is right now. You will have to discover traders in their own maps--after you complete story and survive the raids in each map to unlock the next map which will be progressively harder than the previous one. That's what the game will be, not a loot and shoot.

Still a test build like 5 years in the making....

If that is what it will be why have you been doing nothing but making us play a Loot and Shoot game for like the last 3 years or whatever? You guys keep talking up your grandiose ideas but you NEVER EVER come close to any major milestone that even gives us a shred of what you say the game will be.... we just get more loot and shoot.

PICK ONE ALREADY.

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t4nk83
2 hours ago, bigbacon said:

Still a test build like 5 years in the making....

If that is what it will be why have you been doing nothing but making us play a Loot and Shoot game for like the last 3 years or whatever? You guys keep talking up your grandiose ideas but you NEVER EVER come close to any major milestone that even gives us a shred of what you say the game will be.... we just get more loot and shoot.

PICK ONE ALREADY.

It's BETA.  The final version of the game could be a Pokemon port if they chose to do so, maybe Tarkov is a member of Team Rocket?

 

In all seriousness, they aren't promising anything, they are entertaining ideas and seeing what works, and what doesn't. It afterall, still BETA.

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Spectator6
On 9/2/2019 at 9:35 PM, Tabasco said:

Pestily joked recently that with his level 70 character his covert movement is at level 3.

Go watch Pestily's "Bully" videos and then come back and tell you're still surprised his covert movement skill is low! lolololol

OF COURSE it's low, the guy rushes the game's pace like a maniac! If anything, this indicates the skill system is working as intended, no?

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Kremson

I know this idea I have is just well an idea and I know prolly most will sigh at it but hey its an idea that could be considered an worked on to fit just right in the game . 

But why not just have like I am sure has been mentioned a thousand times have it to where our player level actually levels the skills . What I mean by this is say like you hit level 20 but have your skill level speed level at a 1/4 of the player level so say str,end,health would be level 5 an player level 20. But here is the thing getting to player level 20 takes longer more exp required than it does now to where getting to level 20 takes the same amount of exp as it does (right now ) to get to level 40. 

Here is a catch to this though just because you hit level 20 wont mean you automatically have level 5 str an end. If all you did was just walk around and or crouched walked the majority of the time then str and end would progress slower to where you be at like level 2.5 to where you could be a sneaky an tactical player an manage to progress those levels as well as the covert level just at a slower pace but it would also have to be based off the amount of weight carried for the str. In which doing so wouldnt really progress your endurance since well endurance is all about running mainly . 

In doing so with the amount of exp it takes to reach player level 20 as it is now to hit 40 would slow down the game an stop all the ones that hit level 40 within a few days to  a week that ends up flooding the market with end game items too soon . But also helps skills level like they should be cause in all honesty if someone like say Pestily who plays alot an does alot of running etc by the time hits level 20 should atleast have level 5 end an like level 4 str going by that type of play style for example. 

We all know the skills progression are broken an have been well for along time if not since the beginning cause for me normally I am above level 50 but this wipe cycle I didnt play nowhere near as much due to work etc but I am at level 39 I think an my str an end is like 5.5 and 9 and see for me thats messed up considering like for shoreline I will run all the way to resort an then creep walk most of the time from west to east an vice versa loot an kill then run all the way to extract and I do that on every map but yet my covert is like 13 . Its like even though I run more than I creep walk but yet the skills level backwards it seems. ANd I have noticed that since I started right before .8 came out I have even tried to cheese it myself an never could get them to level like they should or either I cheesed it wrongly but regardless I have noticed peoples frustration an why everyone feels that skills progression should be looked into an a resolution found . 

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bigbacon
22 hours ago, t4nk83 said:

It's BETA.  The final version of the game could be a Pokemon port if they chose to do so, maybe Tarkov is a member of Team Rocket?

 

In all seriousness, they aren't promising anything, they are entertaining ideas and seeing what works, and what doesn't. It afterall, still BETA.

and yet they hide behind BETA and people like you allow them to continue doing so.

Living behind "BETA" for years now.

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kondziowy
1 hour ago, bigbacon said:

and yet they hide behind BETA and people like you allow them to continue doing so.

Other dev studios are allowing it by not providing any competition. I'm fine playing this BETA until 2025 :) This may happen btw and Tarkov may still be the best by then.

Edited by kondziowy

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Arzzet
On 9/3/2019 at 4:35 AM, Tabasco said:

 

This persists to today. This isn't a secret, it's a well known thing. Veritas and Pestily brought it up in their podcast a couple of weeks ago. Pestily joked recently that with his level 70 character his covert movement is at level 3.

A few wipes back there was a glitch allowing you to max out your strength. I don't condone glitching, but in this case it's only by doing this glitch that we got a look at how game changing the skill is. At max strength you run *TWICE* as fast. Your grenades get thrown significantly further.

 

Dude, this means nothing, is playstyle and it has all the sense since pestily only run over the map. I have much more cover movenemt than him, but maybe less endurance. Is what I get from my playstyle. 

Then answering the second point:

It doesn’t bother me if someone runs faster, actually he runs twice as fast as a lvl 1 character and his speed will not stop my bullets. And grenade throws.. this is not olimpiade, I don’t care if he throws grenades further, the only important is if he has accuracy throwing them, and usually it has nothing to do with the distance... that perks are useful in some concrete situations but as a little advantage will not save your life.  You can have maxed perks and Someone will play better and that will not save your life at all. Is just a kind of moan like you want something another one has and just because is bigger in number doesn’t have to be that much relevant but you will cry you want it.

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Elder_Drake

I agree with many here that say the skill system is absolutely fine (sans tweaking that should come later).

We are not meant to max out skills in a short test cycle and every wipe gives BSG critical metric data on just how fast we are leveling and how those skills are playing out. That data is what we need BSG to see because we are going through test cycles and have wipes ahead, arguing that we are not getting max skills is pointless.

Also it should be hard to level skills and take a long while playing that way. It gives players a means to push hard on progressing their playstyle and at the same time be rewarded for it. Someone has a higher skill than you because they worked hard for it, well cry me a river because they earned it. Put your own time in or chalk up those encounters to running into veteran players that handed you your arse. It happens to all of us so be humbled, learn, and push on or push off to a game that caters more to your liking.

My .02 and happy hunting.

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