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Lazycollinator

Changes to Scav Design, AI, and Player Scavs

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Lazycollinator

Hello, 

I have only recently bought tarkov, however I have a lot of hours in games such as Arma 3 which are very similar to this game.

I have a few criticisms as far as AI in this game goes, but I do have some suggestions as to how to perhaps make the AI a bit more reasonable. You see in arma 3, by default AI are accurate as hell, but also dumb as hell. Often times fights go like this - open field, squad of enemy ai just prones on contact, and snipes you almost instantly. This is okay, in a game like arma, where you can save scum. However I adjusted the AI in arma with the in game settings to be very intelligent, but also very innacurate. I feel that scav AI should be this way, in a game like this where you are punished severely for getting sniped by AI. the only time AI in arma are still quite aimbotty, is when in close quarters, when they run around a building and flank you, and point blank you with bullets to the point where inaccuracy is much less likely, which does make sense in my mind.

Scavs, in tarkov, tend to bumble around corners instantly flicking onto you, fire on you through bushes, and during night raids, snipe you with near perfect accuracy. For example,  on woods when fighting scav house, I have been sniped by scavs during night raids from roughly 200m away, to the point where even with night vision, the fog still greatly obscures them. the only chance at seeing them is their muzzle flashes. (keep in mind I use a suppressor and should not be even detected, let alone fired upon.)

What I would suggest in terms of AI, is like my settings in arma, have them smarter. Have them flank and use trees as cover. im not talking about running to the nearest tree, I mean moving from tree to tree, actively pushing towards the player, leaning around cover etc. Flanking when in bigger numbers. As for the bushes, that should be clear, even when they know you are behind a bush, they should not be able to accurately fire on you through it, its quite unfair. so either program them not to fire, or to fire with greater inaccuracy when obscured by bushes. And as for night raids, significantly decrease their detection range, especially when being fired upon by suppressors. Also this ties into AI accuracy, at longer ranges it should be significantly reduced. OR the rate of fire with which scavs fire on you from such distances should be decreased. Perhaps having a system for AI where the closer they are, the more accurate they are. That way they dont feel too strong at range, but not too weak when within 25m.  

A change such as this could make fighting scav AI much more engaging and less who taps whos head first.

I think one more suggestion as for scav AI would be to have it so that they actively avoid aiming for the head. I have had far too many engagements where I am instantly killed by AI and it truly feels the equivalent of being aimbotted by a hacker, and in a game such as this where loot is lost on death, that can be incredibly frustrating. However, if a better ai detection/accuracy system is implemented, then perhaps it wont feel so cheap to be shot in the head if you are too close to them.

That is all for AI, however I would like to touch on scav design.

As it stands, at ranges greater than 100m it is very hard to differentiate a scav (ai or player) from a USEC PMC. I think it would be more sensible if scavs wore blue jeans or something similar, to further press the point that at the end of the day, these are civilians turned enemy combatants. (which I assume is the idea behind scavs) While simultaneously actively making it easier for players to differentiate between pmc and scav, that way they aren't forced to take a gamble when firing on hostiles when playing as a scav. (I do understand that some scavs arent wearing all green and those are very well designed and easily differentiated from PMCs, which is good in my opinion).

Finally, I would like to touch on scav players. I feel that scav players are afforded far too much for being shitty. On top of that, scav players vs scav AI are difficult to differentiate.

First I feel as though player scavs should be different in terms as looks from scav AI. perhaps something in their outfit to give it away closer, while not giving it away at range. For example, the colored armbands that are sold in the traders. Perhaps forcibly adding them to scav player outfits or something similar so that it is clear who is AI and who isn't could be incorporated.

I saw this in another post on reddit and figured I would drop it in here. As it stands scav players can easily shoot down other scav players with zero retaliation for those who are being attacked without turning the whole of scav kind against them. Example - Scav player shoots me - 2 choices. A. shoot back and risk being aimbotted by scavs nearby and also throughout the rest of the raid.  B. Dont shoot back, and risk dying to said player, or trying to escape.

I see two solutions for this. Either A, when a scav player goes rogue and begins firing on other scavs, he is flagged as an enemy for all other scavs, including scav players. I.E. he can be shot by other scav players without any AI retribution (after all he took the risk and started the fight, so he should be punished.) This creates a compromise where scav players who are defending themselves are not punished for doing so.

Or B. Only the scavs in the vacinity will flag both players as red, and become hostile, however the whole of scav kind around the map will remain friendly. This creates a compromise where the risk is more in the single conflict, rather than for the entire raid, which encourages players to be pieces of poo, but also encourages players to retaliate against it.

Overall I hope that you will consider these changes to how scavs work, because as it stands, I do not feel that the game is "hardcore" I feel that it is simply "unfair", And that creates a frustrating experience that Most times, offers nothing but punishment for taking risks, and I know that the frustration can reach a breakpoint and drive players away. I think that changes such as these could change the game into a much slower tactical experience, instead of a fast paced flick fest.

Kindest regards

-LazyC

 

Edit : Forgot to touch on one more thing. In the after death menu, Please tell us if the scav that killed us was an AI or player. that will help us help you fine tune AI or recognize when We were simply bested by another player. 

Edit 2: For the Scav Player timer between each session, I think the timer should be removed by default. But if a player either A. Went straight to extraction without playing the game, or B. Extracts with loot successfully, they should get a timer. Perhaps for straight extracting - 30 min and for extracting succesfully with enough XP - 10 min. This will give a little more weight to the current system that nags you for abusing scavs default loot, decrease the amount of Scav EZ profit, But also significantly remove the time wasting in the menu waiting for the next scav, for new players trying to start working their way up.

 

Edited by Lazycollinator
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AwesomeDudeSlas

I concur

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Lazycollinator

I would also like to add some more to my post but unfortunately I cannot edit it further. I just had a match on woods at 1am, with night vision and suppressors. I was sitting on the rock adjacent to the scav house. (luckily I insured my gear so I should be okay unless a lucky scav happens across my body.) before even firing a shot to make my presence known (I had a suppressor too so it shouldn't make a difference beyond maybe 50-100m) I had a scav with a shotgun spot me, naruto run at me full speed up the near vertical edge of the rock(which shouldn't be possible) then shotgun me point blank in the face. all in the span of about 25 seconds.I have had multiple night raids from this position and its always the same. The scav AI is even quicker to react and deadlier at night, because of several factors that need to be addressed.

 

1. Fog ; Scav AI especially in this open area are so easily able to aimbot you from so far out that the fog actually covers everything but their muzzle flashes completely.

2. AI detection ; Scavs tend to when finding a player, alert every other scav in the area to where that player is, so the scav closest to me, also alerted another scav 150m out in the fog.

3. Darkness ; I have night vision, scavs have flashlights. The scav that spotted me simply SHOULD NOT have been able to spot me, this is highly unrealistic

4. Scav aim ; I dont know what it is about night raids but even in full protection armor I often find myself being blasted by scav shotguns from over 100m away, which while it doesn't kill me, When I cant retaliate, eventually the shots will SHRED through armor. (this is not to say that scavs naruto running at you at full speed then the second they stop shooting you straight in the face with a shotgun is okay either. I don't mind scavs shooting me with shotguns from a range, but they need to not aim for anything more than center of mass (especially considering shotguns for players have seriously flawed ironsights currently.)

5. Scav Navigation ; The scav that ran up on me legitimately ran straight up the side of a rock, giving me no time to react because he came from somewhere he should not have been able to.

 

Solutions :

1. Fog ; You dont have to get rid of it, but the range where the fog becomes too dense for a player to spot anything, needs to be the same as scav detection. They should not be shooting through fog. In fact, because they are SCAVS and not military, they should have even less detection range. (I understand not wanting to make the game too easy, but this game is supposed to be REALISTIC. Night time is pitch black on most maps with very little visibility. the fog only helps with sometimes finding silhouettes at longer ranges. Scavs should act accordingly, because with night vision in real life, taking out targets that don't have access to the same tech would be relatively easy.)

2. AI detection ; from what I understand scavs spawn in waves around the map throughout the raid. Tie scav AI together as squads so that they only react to their own squad, and also stick relatively close to one another so you  have more grouped engagements, instead of Rasta Fests where scavs keep coming out of the woods erratically. (having to fight more scavs at once will force players to play smart, and allow you to tune down scav AI so that they can still be deadly, but only when in larger numbers. this will add to the playstyles of people who play like stalkers and snipers, instead of forcing everyone to play with the absolute best gear because if they don't it will lead to death by scav aimbot. This will also make finding lone Scavs much more interesting, because you have to worry about a potential squad of scavs nearby, or recognize that the rest got wiped out. Creates tension.)

3. darkness ; Relatively simple. Scavs should only react to 2 things when in darkness. Sound, And whats in front of their flashlights. besides that, They should react to the flashlights of Players. Otherwise, they should be totally unaware. This also ties into sound. If I am sneaking up to a scav and walking at the slowest I possibly can to make as little noise as possible, I should be rewarded for that, being able to sneak up behind scavs should be rewarded greatly, and a system of melee stealth kills on scavs should also be implemented. That way I can sneak up behind a scav and slit his throat without making a sound for other players/scavs to be aware of. This could also play into the idea of scav squads, whittling down numbers with stealth of some sort before getting into an engagement. If you want to have night time ops in your game, but force people to sacrifice protection for night vision, then the stealth needs to be ironed out because as it stands its practically non existent.

4. Scav Aim ; ties into the fog. But also ties into the scav aim in general. These are civilians not ex military. They shouldn't be able to snipe me with a shotgun. Realistic game needs realistic AI. rest of my post outlines this

5. Scav navigation ; I think the first thing that should be addressed is that scavs should not full speed run up on people on this game. Sprinting should be reserved for getting to cover, then from there, they should move from cover to cover or fire from cover.

Coming from Arma, which arguably had the worst AI id ever seen by default, I realize now that the scav AI in this game is far more flawed, and punishes you almost infinitely harder. I think that the AI need to be a serious priority over adding new guns or whatever else because at the end of the day, when we already cant put half of our stuff to use because of the inconsistent AI, what is the point in adding more? If the scav AI makes the game unrealistic and uninteresting and far too frustrating? at what point do people stop playing?

 

I just hope you realize the importance of the AI in this game. If there is going to be AI in a game that you lose all your items to death, then that AI Needs to be flawless so that the game can feel realistic. I came to play a tactical shooter, not a dark souls game. Please do consider the changes I've listed and at the end of the day, I hope you can understand that while I criticize the AI significantly, its only because I love this game and what it Could grow into, and I truly hope that it flourishes

 

 

 

Edited by Lazycollinator

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pleznt

The scavs could be a little bit more npc, doing random things like rummaging for loot, talking around a camp fire, sleeping, watching tarkov news, listening to tarkov radio, fixing a car, scrapping parts, breaking windows, spray painting walls, kicking the poo out of another scav, taking a dump in the bushes. The scav on the roof at customs could be smoking a ciggarette, or talking on a sat phone or scanning with binoculars, or even hanging a turd off the side of the building while giving reshala a thumbs up.

Hopefully we get a bit of immersion later down the track, with some nice tweaks to their tactics, and how they react to their friendly scavs dying.

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GeneralBrus

Players should allways be the danger in a PvP game, so add more scaves but make them less a danger to the player.

I agree with the OP.

Noone likes Aimbot AI!

Trash AI > Unfair Ai

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Lazycollinator
8 hours ago, pleznt said:

The scavs could be a little bit more npc, doing random things like rummaging for loot, talking around a camp fire, sleeping, watching tarkov news, listening to tarkov radio, fixing a car, scrapping parts, breaking windows, spray painting walls, kicking the poo out of another scav, taking a dump in the bushes. The scav on the roof at customs could be smoking a ciggarette, or talking on a sat phone or scanning with binoculars, or even hanging a turd off the side of the building while giving reshala a thumbs up.

Hopefully we get a bit of immersion later down the track, with some nice tweaks to their tactics, and how they react to their friendly scavs dying.

 

That would be really cool! I would love little details like that while I am looking at them through a high powered scope in the middle of the night with night vision

7 hours ago, GeneralBrus said:

Players should allways be the danger in a PvP game, so add more scaves but make them less a danger to the player.

I agree with the OP.

Noone likes Aimbot AI!

Trash AI > Unfair Ai

Could not agree more, scavs are deadlier than players in most cases which makes fighting players, or at least recognizing that you are fighting players, much harder and less satisfying. Cant enjoy fighting a player when im already puckered up from getting sniped by scavs

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Lazycollinator

Just got killed in a pmc run before writing this, and have more to add to scav AI during night raids.

So to outline  the situation, I have a suppressed m4, gnv night vision goggles, and class 6 full body armor with a class 3 helmet.

its factory at night. Pitch black for anyone without night vision. There is another pmc literally just sitting in a corner on the other side of the map unloading drum mag after drum mag on the one door he has to watch. Meanwhile I am sneaking around up on the upper railings with my night vision. I am crouched and walking at the slowest speed, which means there is absolutely ZERO noise, and yet, first scav that walks remotely close to me, instantly turns his flashlight up to me and blinds me with it while he shoots me through the small gap between the wall and the scaffolding. I spray into the light and kill him, then move on. I continue killing scav after scav on the railing, trying my best to take them all out, and yet factory for some obscene reason feels the need to spawn an obscene amount of scavs within the first 10 minutes. There is like 4-5 of them fighting you at any given time and they are all aimbots. Anyways after clearing a wave and moving up on that door to try and see if I can do something to fight that player unloading into the door, I end up getting spotted by a random scav far across the room, and he pops me twice in the head instantly killing me.

That is roughly 1,000,000 worth of gear down the toilet to a scav. That is unacceptable given the circumstances.

 

So my problems with this, is quite obvious. 

First is scav night vision. I touched on this before and ill do so again. Unless a scav has night vision goggles, they need to act as though they are BLIND entirely. If they hear you, unless they have a flashlight to see you, they should BLIND FIRE. very inaccurately

Second is pvp. I was presented with this entirely perfect situation to cap a player and I was cucked by scavs. In a game like this, that poo shouldnt be happening. There are so many scavs on factory all it encourages is sitting in a corner like a pussy and camping rather than actively using the map to gain and advantage.

finally, the gear lost. Once again I just have to say, in a game where your gear is lost on death, the ai you are forced to encounter throughout the map needs to be braindead. They should only kill people who are playing like total idiots. I'm at a point where if I get pinched by scavs and players, I focus the scavs first. Yenno why? players miss. Scavs rarely do. the fact that i'm losing so much gear to things that legitimately shouldn't be feasible, highly annoys me and I know i'm not the only one. Scavs are the heartbeat of this game as far as i'm concerned, this needs to be priority alpha. Iron them out PLEASE, for all our sakes.

 

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pleznt

Just shot a scav 17 times in dorms. AK74u bp rounds. 250 something damage 50 absorbed. What am I doing wrong? I even threw a flash grenade, stepped out and shot him some more. Then stepped out and threw a grenade at his feet, but died because 2 more appeared standing right next to the one I was already shooting. Grenade didn't go off before I died so who knows lol.

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Lazycollinator
10 hours ago, pleznt said:

Just shot a scav 17 times in dorms. AK74u bp rounds. 250 something damage 50 absorbed. What am I doing wrong? I even threw a flash grenade, stepped out and shot him some more. Then stepped out and threw a grenade at his feet, but died because 2 more appeared standing right next to the one I was already shooting. Grenade didn't go off before I died so who knows lol.

I believe that the scavs you were fighting were in fact raiders, who are outfitted more like pmcs. They are quite bullet spongey even with bp rounds i've found. best you can do is spray and pray with how tight and tunneled dorms is. Having 3 ai aimbotting you down the same hallway and still being that spongy is quite ridiculous. Some suggestions i've heard is to go either a floor up/down and fire a shot to get their attention, then choke the stairwell. I will soon post about scav raiders as well but I have not had enough experience with them yet.

Edited by Lazycollinator

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Yeavo
On 9/8/2019 at 10:33 AM, Lazycollinator said:

5. Scav Navigation ; The scav that ran up on me legitimately ran straight up the side of a rock, giving me no time to react because he came from somewhere he should not have been able to.

Ah! You met Sergey. I've met this scav a few times and have given him the name Sergey. To keep myself immersed I've cooked up backstory for him. Before the evacuation he used to a tour guide and climbing instructor at the health resort. He stayed behind to make disappear from his debtors and to make enough loot to pay off his liberal arts degree he got abroad.

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Lazycollinator
3 hours ago, Yeavo said:

Ah! You met Sergey. I've met this scav a few times and have given him the name Sergey. To keep myself immersed I've cooked up backstory for him. Before the evacuation he used to a tour guide and climbing instructor at the health resort. He stayed behind to make disappear from his debtors and to make enough loot to pay off his liberal arts degree he got abroad.

Lmao yes I believe ive met him

 

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stAKato
On 9/8/2019 at 1:36 PM, pleznt said:

The scavs could be a little bit more npc, doing random things like rummaging for loot, talking around a camp fire, sleeping, watching tarkov news, listening to tarkov radio, fixing a car, scrapping parts, breaking windows, spray painting walls, kicking the poo out of another scav, taking a dump in the bushes. The scav on the roof at customs could be smoking a ciggarette, or talking on a sat phone or scanning with binoculars, or even hanging a turd off the side of the building while giving reshala a thumbs up.

Hopefully we get a bit of immersion later down the track, with some nice tweaks to their tactics, and how they react to their friendly scavs dying.

This is the kind of scav I'd like to see. With some reaction to fire (taking position in different location depending on where shots were heard, hiding themselves or their stuff, destroying clues or stash, fleeing, ambush, rush...), environment and weather.

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