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Mad_Dog8762

Why the hate on the SQUAD recoil system?

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Mad_Dog8762

Personally, I think it is a good system-

Semi-Auto is the primary mode of fire in 90% of cases, but full auto definitely has its uses.

 

I know that some people say that it isn't realistic because the rifle just "climbs to the sky" but think about it, if the only point of contact on an M4 was the pistol grip, for example, and you fired full auto, it WOULD climb to the sky. Keeping the weapon down is a combination of our torso/spine providing resistance, and the actual act of compensating for recoil. These are both aspects of human EFFORT< be it conscious or automatic. I mean heck, think about youtube clips of people who have never fired weapons before going full auto and totally losing control of the weapon. There is ACTIVE effort required to control recoil.

 

I like SQUAD's recoil system because all recoil control is in the hands of the player, which means that realistic human inconsistency contributes to the realistic inconsistency of recoil in game. 

 

This all contributes to making aiming ACTUALLY take some skill, which is important for any game pursuing realistic levels of combat.

Edited by Mad_Dog8762
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Maki_Nishikino

You mention hate for that games recoil, can you link the thread for context?

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Mad_Dog8762
4 minutes ago, Maki_Nishikino said:

You mention hate for that games recoil, can you link the thread for context?

Check any reddit or Tarkov discussion about recoil.

It comes up in about every one. I cant tell if its a significant portion of the forum community or maybe just a small part. 

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Sir_Mossy
26 minutes ago, Maki_Nishikino said:

You mention hate for that games recoil, can you link the thread for context?

The hate, from what I've seen, comes from the drastic change in recoil control from level 1 to elite recoil control. Practically any gun in the game has zero recoil once you reach elite level, and that is what people are having issues with. I personally have not seen people complaining about anything else regarding recoil other than the skill being a serious night/day difference between min/max level.

For example, people have linked youtube videos about the insane difference between high/low level recoil control. In this video, they showcase the changes in recoil between max/min level, and the differences are pretty drastic. At max level, the gun legit has zero deviation from where the sight starts at, versus level 1 where the gun goes flying into the air.

7:05 for the recoil portion of the video.

I personally think changes need to be made, since elite recoil control essentially removes the need to do any form of physical recoil control whilst shooting. It is really offputting to new/low level players as well when they get full auto lasered from 100m+ away. Not to say that the game shouldn't be challenging, but max recoil control removes a major challenge from the game and essentially puts it in easy mode in regards to recoil.

Edited by Sir_Mossy
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Dr_Twist

Squad is an amazing game and nails just about every possible aspect of realism that I can imagine. 

Ofcourse they aren't as "fancy" as EFT in regards to certain mechanics and how they look with the neat animations but when it comes to getting that adrenaline pumping, Squad does a good job on that part. 

What I really love about Squad, is that you have to rely on teamwork and positioning in order to really make an impact in a game. Go off on your own and you will die almost everytime.

But in terms of the recoil system, I think they do a good job of making the player not have complete control over how it works. The player has to deal with it knowing it's there where as in Tarkov, the player unintentionally has complete control over it. Because of how it works in Squad, every player and group has to really depend on eachother's movement, positioning and teamwork to be as effective as possible. 

Most of the time in tarkov, I just see one player out of 4 go off on their own and wreck everyone because they are rocking the META gear with basically 0 recoil and along with other broken aspects of the game destroy the realism which, to me, really kills the immersion. Just makes me feel like after all this "Development", Tarkov is still incredible lacking in what it could be versus what it continues to be.

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RACWAR

In one of the podcasts Nikita himself said that he doesn't like the recoil system where to gun climbs into the sky, so, case closed I guess.

They should just dump the recoil skill out of the game, or make it only have 5 levels. And cut the recoil benefits of all the attachments in half. Probably the quickest and easiest solution.

Edited by RACWAR
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Cman1337

While Squad wants you to countersteer to the recoil, EfT has an auto recoil counter steering. After the initial 3-4 shots in auto the character in EFT starts to level the gun down and hold it in that position. That's why run and gun is so effective in EFT and, for me, it feels arcadey

But it's also realistic in some way. In real life you also don't allow the gun to go over your head and you hold it down automatically.
 

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Sir_Mossy
7 hours ago, RACWAR said:

In one of the podcasts Nikita himself said that he doesn't like the recoil system where to gun climbs into the sky, so, case closed I guess.

They should just dump the recoil skill out of the game, or make it only have 5 levels. And cut the recoil benefits of all the attachments in half. Probably the quickest and easiest solution.

I would have to say that a change like that would probably be what most people want. Literal effortless recoil control is kind of a major change from level 0 to elite. Most people have reacted positively to posts related to just reducing the power of recoil control by reducing the difference between 0 and elite. People don't like the idea of a skill essentially removing a difficulty factor from the game, and near complete removal of recoil from weaponry definitely falls into that category.

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jlambvo

I agree. Honestly the raw level 0 recoil feels fine, does anyone actually complain about it? It still has it's uses but becomes counterproductive most of the time and can be offset a lot with attachments. I'd love to see skill progression go into some other aspect of handling that might confer some tactical benefits without making a comically unrealistic difference between low and high level players.

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Stupri
On 9/14/2019 at 4:55 PM, Mad_Dog8762 said:

Personally, I think it is a good system-

Semi-Auto is the primary mode of fire in 90% of cases, but full auto definitely has its uses.

 

I know that some people say that it isn't realistic because the rifle just "climbs to the sky" but think about it, if the only point of contact on an M4 was the pistol grip, for example, and you fired full auto, it WOULD climb to the sky. Keeping the weapon down is a combination of our torso/spine providing resistance, and the actual act of compensating for recoil. These are both aspects of human EFFORT< be it conscious or automatic. I mean heck, think about youtube clips of people who have never fired weapons before going full auto and totally losing control of the weapon. There is ACTIVE effort required to control recoil.

 

I like SQUAD's recoil system because all recoil control is in the hands of the player, which means that realistic human inconsistency contributes to the realistic inconsistency of recoil in game. 

 

This all contributes to making aiming ACTUALLY take some skill, which is important for any game pursuing realistic levels of combat.

You claim you're an infantry marine and you're defending Squad's recoil system. You should know better unless you're bullshitting about your time. 

 

Squad's recoil system is 100% backasswards and nothing like how recoil in the real world works. The best recoil in a first person shooter right now is probably Rising Storm 2, and I have no idea how they actually calculate it. 

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Mad_Dog8762
20 minutes ago, Stupri said:

You claim you're an infantry marine and you're defending Squad's recoil system. You should know better unless you're bullshitting about your time. 

 

Squad's recoil system is 100% backasswards and nothing like how recoil in the real world works. The best recoil in a first person shooter right now is probably Rising Storm 2, and I have no idea how they actually calculate it. 

Well lets see, having fired a M240B from standing just for fun, a normally heavy and awkward gun, suddenly becomes very light WHILE firing.

Physics dictates that this is a result of an upward force opposing the force of gravity

 

Can we agree recoil kicks up?


Are you saying that if a weapon were ONLY held at the pistol grip (not in the shoulder or anything) it would not kick UP while firing?

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Spectator6
On 9/15/2019 at 5:14 AM, RACWAR said:

They should just dump the recoil skill out of the game, or make it only have 5 levels. And cut the recoil benefits of all the attachments in half. Probably the quickest and easiest solution.

Yes. 

I personally really like the recoil compensation mechanic in EFT, but I totally abhor how high levels virtually remove recoil from the game altogether.

Base level recoil control is fairly reasonable, IMO. I don't have range time with all of the weapons in the game, but for those that I do, I feel the base level recoil control feels quite good.

As some here have pointed out, I agree that that the majority of the backlash regarding EFT's recoil has more to do with the inhuman lazerbeam levels of full auto accuracy at high levels, unbelievably tight fully auto shot groups at high levels, etc. 

I could be wrong, but I anticipate that all BSG has to do is tweak these out of the game and, from there, people will start to really come around to how EFT handles recoil.

Edited by Spectator6
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Spectator6
2 hours ago, Mad_Dog8762 said:

Are you saying that if a weapon were ONLY held at the pistol grip (not in the shoulder or anything) it would not kick UP while firing?

Hello @Mad_Dog8762! I'm not sure what your point is here... Even if that were the case, given that every weapon in-game is fired from a shouldered position, what relevance does it have?

Not to be disrespectful or anything, but out of curiosity, and just for the sake of discussion, what weapon platforms have you fired in real life?

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Mad_Dog8762
1 hour ago, Spectator6 said:

Hello @Mad_Dog8762! I'm not sure what your point is here... Even if that were the case, given that every weapon in-game is fired from a shouldered position, what relevance does it have?

Not to be disrespectful or anything, but out of curiosity, and just for the sake of discussion, what weapon platforms have you fired in real life?

No worries-

I have fired: M4, M27 (USMC Variant of HK416), M249, M240B, Ak47, Ak74, M2HB .50Cal, Mk19 Automatic Grenade Launcher, M203, AT4, M72 LAW, RPK, PKM, and even shot a single mag from a Dragunov.

These are from my time in the service, I have fired MANY more (too man to list but including Mp5 and P90's [full auto]) outside of the service. 

 

My point being, is that the weapon exerts an upward rising force, it TRIES to climb, and what prevents it going up is a combination of our spine/back-muscles as well as our arms actively controlling the weapon. So, at the end of the day, a video game where the weapon climbs to the sky IS realistic in the sense that ALL weapon control must be done via the player's mouse, including having to input for the resistance given by our spines/back-muscles which we do without necessarily thinking about it IRL.

Edited by Mad_Dog8762
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CooH1e2
On ‎9‎/‎15‎/‎2019 at 7:01 PM, Cman1337 said:

While Squad wants you to countersteer to the recoil, EfT has an auto recoil counter steering. After the initial 3-4 shots in auto the character in EFT starts to level the gun down and hold it in that position. That's why run and gun is so effective in EFT and, for me, it feels arcadey

But it's also realistic in some way. In real life you also don't allow the gun to go over your head and you hold it down automatically.
 

I do like the squad system but I understand the point of the auto recoil counter steering that EFT is introducing.

With this method a burst or semi auto is less effective than a full auto because you will have this initial kick only during the first 3-4 and then the automatic countersteer starts to work. 

I agree with the idea of not pointing to the sky but the gun stabilization it's too good. You should sway and spray in a wider area while full auto... 

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SpeedyGonzales
vor 9 Stunden schrieb Stupri:

You claim you're an infantry marine and you're defending Squad's recoil system. You should know better unless you're bullshitting about your time. 

 

Squad's recoil system is 100% backasswards and nothing like how recoil in the real world works. The best recoil in a first person shooter right now is probably Rising Storm 2, and I have no idea how they actually calculate it. 

True words only two games i know who handle it very good for gameplay and realism is Rising Storm 2 and Insurgency old and new.

I hope this will change in tarkov to because the actual system is really only full auto laser beams like apex/cod  etc..

Bring back skill without full juggernauts and recoil skill control, day dreaming ;).

Edited by SpeedyGonzales

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Spectator6
7 hours ago, Mad_Dog8762 said:

These are from my time in the service

Thank you for your service, @Mad_Dog8762.

7 hours ago, Mad_Dog8762 said:

I have fired: M4, M27 (USMC Variant of HK416), M249, M240B, Ak47, Ak74, M2HB .50Cal, Mk19 Automatic Grenade Launcher, M203, AT4, M72 LAW, RPK, PKM, and even shot a single mag from a Dragunov.

That's definitely a fine smorgasbord of weapon experience. 

7 hours ago, Mad_Dog8762 said:

My point being, is that the weapon exerts an upward rising force, it TRIES to climb, and what prevents it going up is a combination of our spine/back-muscles as well as our arms actively controlling the weapon. So, at the end of the day, a video game where the weapon climbs to the sky IS realistic in the sense that ALL weapon control must be done via the player's mouse, including having to input for the resistance given by our spines/back-muscles which we do without necessarily thinking about it IRL.

You make great points here! And if we look at it strictly from the perspective of manual control, you're absolutely right.

We may also be able split hairs and say that most felt recoil is actually straight back INTO the shooter and that any loss of stability comes from the human body REACTING to those impulses (ie the spine, shooter's form "giving" a bit). Ironically, we may also say that the the very fact we hold the weapon itself by the grip -- which sits below the axis of the barrel -- might also be a contributing factor to what actually causes the weapon to "flip" in the first place. 

If we were to change the hand position to be inline with the barrel (something like the various GAU setups) would it be fair to say we'd expect a wholly different "reaction" to the recoil impulses? (For those who may not be familiar with what I'm talking about, here's an image)

image.png.eebac21cfc823677f1fc4bc554a47a9d.png

Though not as effective, the same argument could be said for the m249. I've only fired one at a shotshow, but everything in that weapon's design drastically helps it be essentially a "straight back" rail gun with very little muzzle rise.

The point being that, from the perspective of felt recoil, simplifying things so that "everything rises" may not be very accurate at the end of the day.

What about from the perspective of gameplay balance, though? Well, that's where we typically start seeing the more powerful weapons with higher rates of fire have more "rise", not necessarily because it's realistic, but because *SOMETHING* needs to be done to counteract what would otherwise be a drastically overpowered weapon.

So where does that leave us?

Well I don't think it does anyone here much good to argue. As we've already established, there's good reason for an "always rises" recoil system. Is it realistic, down to the hairs on a fly? No. But is it good enough? Maybe so.

But how about this...

What if we were to give BSG the benefit of doubt, just for a moment? What if we were to acknowledge that they've fired more weapons than many of us here combined? What if we were to say that Nikita has a lot of love and respect for games like Arma? (He does).

Then why in the world, if we acknowledge that they too "know what they're talking about", why in the world would they find something like automatic recoil compensation to be a good thing?

Is it possible, then, that they're trying to represent another aspect of weapons handling into the FPS genre? One that is equally as valid, but just coming from a slightly different perspective?

Is it possible?

That's the question we seek to answer here:

And if you prefer video format, one of our very own Tarkovians made a video rundown of the thread:

At the end of the day, I suspect there are good and valid merits to both approaches. Perhaps which one is "better" may be a matter of personal preference rather than some infallible sense of "right vs wrong". Personally, I think EFT's recoil mechanics have a lot to offer. And with some additional tweaking to get rid of the full-auto mag dump meta, I think it could end up in a very fine place indeed!

Thoughts?

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Stupri
17 hours ago, Mad_Dog8762 said:

Well lets see, having fired a M240B from standing just for fun, a normally heavy and awkward gun, suddenly becomes very light WHILE firing.

Physics dictates that this is a result of an upward force opposing the force of gravity

 

Can we agree recoil kicks up?


Are you saying that if a weapon were ONLY held at the pistol grip (not in the shoulder or anything) it would not kick UP while firing?

Yeah you know, I call bullshit. I don't think you served, or if you did it was in a logistics unit. You don't regularly get to just pick up and fire enemy weapons. You don't get trained on them. I'm gonna need some DD214 proof that shows your training on all this stuff. 

 

Also Squad's recoil is garbage. The M4 doesn't point to the sky after 3 seconds of sustained fire. Nobody fires a rifle just by holding the pistol grip, etc. I don't understand your point and you aren't making any sense. 

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Mad_Dog8762
1 hour ago, Stupri said:

Yeah you know, I call bullshit. I don't think you served, or if you did it was in a logistics unit. You don't regularly get to just pick up and fire enemy weapons. You don't get trained on them. I'm gonna need some DD214 proof that shows your training on all this stuff. 

 

Also Squad's recoil is garbage. The M4 doesn't point to the sky after 3 seconds of sustained fire. Nobody fires a rifle just by holding the pistol grip, etc. I don't understand your point and you aren't making any sense. 

1st off, I feel no need to prove myself to someone who already admitted he didn't have the balls to serve.

 

2nd, it was joint training out in Bulgaria where we got to play with the Russian style weapons. I didn't say regularly, I used those weapons for about an hour total, a belt of the machine guns, 2 mags of the rifles, and the 1 mag of the Dragunov.

 

My point is that, a weapon DOES climb on its own, that's why there is the term "muzzle rise"

The reason it doesn't when shooting is because we, as shooters, provide resistance by the combination of holding the weapon in the front AND in our shoulders. That is all human recoil control that we must do. SQUADS recoil system is simply turning ALL of the resistance of our bodies into mouse movement. 

 

When you actively control recoil in SQUAD, you end up with full auto shot groupings that are pretty damn realistic.

 

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Stupri
2 hours ago, Mad_Dog8762 said:

1st off, I feel no need to prove myself to someone who already admitted he didn't have the balls to serve.

 

2nd, it was joint training out in Bulgaria where we got to play with the Russian style weapons. I didn't say regularly, I used those weapons for about an hour total, a belt of the machine guns, 2 mags of the rifles, and the 1 mag of the Dragunov.

 

My point is that, a weapon DOES climb on its own, that's why there is the term "muzzle rise"

The reason it doesn't when shooting is because we, as shooters, provide resistance by the combination of holding the weapon in the front AND in our shoulders. That is all human recoil control that we must do. SQUADS recoil system is simply turning ALL of the resistance of our bodies into mouse movement. 

 

When you actively control recoil in SQUAD, you end up with full auto shot groupings that are pretty damn realistic.

 

First, yes goy, you are not a TRUE man until you fight for Israel. Be a hero and die halfway around the world far away from any Americans in danger. THAT is how you serve America and her people! 

 

Secondly, Squad recoil is bad because the meta is to drag your mouse off your goddamn desk to stay on target, which isn't realistic. If you do shoot guns, you are aware that recoil compensation is an act that takes the entire body, not just your arms pushing down. Moreover, you are aware that an experienced shooter is capable of sustaining a relatively level barrel after the first few rounds. 

 

Squad recoil is really, really terrible, and I don't know why you're defending it. 

 

Also which one has more recoil, the .45 or the 7.62x51? Just curious.

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Mad_Dog8762
2 hours ago, Stupri said:

First, yes goy, you are not a TRUE man until you fight for Israel. Be a hero and die halfway around the world far away from any Americans in danger. THAT is how you serve America and her people! 

 

Secondly, Squad recoil is bad because the meta is to drag your mouse off your goddamn desk to stay on target, which isn't realistic. If you do shoot guns, you are aware that recoil compensation is an act that takes the entire body, not just your arms pushing down. Moreover, you are aware that an experienced shooter is capable of sustaining a relatively level barrel after the first few rounds. 

 

Squad recoil is really, really terrible, and I don't know why you're defending it. 

 

Also which one has more recoil, the .45 or the 7.62x51? Just curious.

That COULD be why I am not as bothered by the recoil of SQUAD, I play with VERY high DPI (1900) where most of my friends play at around 800-1000 (not sure what is considered normal)


For me, managing recoil in SQUAD simply requires a gentle and easy pull down (as you would have for recoil in basically ANY shooter)
If my sensitivity was much lower, and I had to drag much farther for the same compensation, I could see the issue. 

 

 

Perceived recoil would depend on the weapon system, but all things being equal, 7.62x51.

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oldirty

Pretty sure recoil is a backwards movement not upwards. Otherwise this would not work.

He holds the gun only on the pistol grip and fires a rather big burst in the end with full auto. The weapon did not climb a mm.

Upwards recoil is not caused by the gun, but by the shooter himself. Thats how the physics work...

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GeneralBrus

Not the recoil should change, but the weapons accuracy. Alot of games these days have a weapon spray that adds to the recoil. Tarkov doesnt, if im not mistaken...

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PardTheTroll
vor einer Stunde schrieb oldirty:

Upwards recoil is not caused by the gun, but by the shooter himself. Thats how the physics work...

After watching @GeneralBrus videos, what exactly in the human physiology causes the upward weapon rise (muzzle rise)? The force of a shot projectile is transmuted opposite to the travel path of the said projectile onto the shooter, right? My only explanation would be two following possibilities:

  1.   Example one: Firing a pistol with stretched out arms. The force makes the arms "collapse" at the  elbow joints. The pistol muzzle rises.
  2.   Example two: Firing a rifle full auto (preferably). Because of the "constant" force to the upper body, after some time (if neither prepared nor trained) the muscles holding the upper body perpendicular to the ground give in, making the shooter lean more and more back and so resulting in a muzzle rise.

Would that make sense? Correct me, if I am wrong. Love to learn new things!

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oldirty
vor einer Stunde schrieb PardTheTroll:

  Example one: Firing a pistol with stretched out arms. The force makes the arms "collapse" at the  elbow joints. The pistol muzzle rises.

Yes, humans are not rocksteady and the force must go somewhere so we give in to compensate. Whats also a big point when talking about pistols is that the "ankerpoint" ( Not sure if thats a good word Im not native english ) sits lower than the barrel. The force pushes 100% in the opposite direction of the barrel and since a pistol is hold lower than the barrel the grip acts like a lever. In the video above the gun is probalby simply to heavy to produce this effect.

vor einer Stunde schrieb PardTheTroll:

Example two: Firing a rifle full auto (preferably). Because of the "constant" force to the upper body, after some time (if neither prepared nor trained) the muscles holding the upper body perpendicular to the ground give in, making the shooter lean more and more back and so resulting in a muzzle rise.

Yes, same principle but with different "ankerpoint" ( again ). If we were rocksteady the entire force would be transfered into our shoulders, through our body and into the ground. But since we arent rocksteady like a block of concrete we give in. Energy always takes the path of least restiance. When holding a gun we have gravity that pushes the gun down, our hands that push it up, the recoil that pushes the gun back and our body that pushes against the recoil. In this case the gravity is the least strong force which means thats the place where all the remaining energy will go that our body cant absorb.

 

Sidenote: This and the video posted by Generalbrus kinda begs the question why the hell are guns that inaccurate while full auto?                            If we aim at a target 50m away and our rear and frontsight line up is off by just 0.1° we will miss the target by 8cm.                                    Calculated with no bullet drop or wind or any kind of deviation ofc. Full auto shooting probably causes much more                                      deviation than just 0.1°

If you wonder what math I used to come to this conclusion http://elsenaju.info/Rechnen/Trigonometrie.htm  

Take the second calculator.                                                                                                                                                                                                 α: Will be the accuracy deviation in degrees.                                                                                                                                                               a: Will be the distance to your target                                                                                                                                                                                 b: will be the result of how much your shot went off target 

 

Edit: Wow im bad at editing, didnt look like this before posting :X                     

Edited by oldirty

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