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Mad_Dog8762

Why the hate on the SQUAD recoil system?

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Spectator6
On 9/18/2019 at 4:41 PM, PardTheTroll said:

After watching @GeneralBrus videos, what exactly in the human physiology causes the upward weapon rise (muzzle rise)? The force of a shot projectile is transmuted opposite to the travel path of the said projectile onto the shooter, right? My only explanation would be two following possibilities:

  1.   Example one: Firing a pistol with stretched out arms. The force makes the arms "collapse" at the  elbow joints. The pistol muzzle rises.
  2.   Example two: Firing a rifle full auto (preferably). Because of the "constant" force to the upper body, after some time (if neither prepared nor trained) the muscles holding the upper body perpendicular to the ground give in, making the shooter lean more and more back and so resulting in a muzzle rise.

Would that make sense? Correct me, if I am wrong. Love to learn new things!

Yep, you've got it @PardTheTroll! @oldirty's got you covered!

To a large degree, the general "softness" and "give" of the human body is what causes the "straight back" felt recoil impulses of the weapon to make the muzzle start to drift upward.

Imagine you're throwing a ball up against a wall. If the ball is really bouncy, you'd expect it rebound along the same trajectory it was thrown.

However, if the wall starts to tilt away and slant upward, the same rebound force will start to be directed at a different angle. 

This is more or less what happens when firing a weapon, especially during full auto. The body takes the straight back "punches" of the weapon and ever so slightly starts to rock backward a little bit, which causes the muzzle to rise. 

This is why, for larger calibers, a shooter starts with the muzzle low and leans a bit downward, so that when the impulses are felt and the body begins to rock back a bit, the muzzle will begin to "rest" at the intended target line.

The reason the weapon does not continue rising indefinitely is because there comes a point when the skeletal structure of the body's angles "match" those of the weapon's impulses (if that makes any sense?). It starts to "punch" more into the spine/etc.

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DeadEyeKiwi
On 9/19/2019 at 8:29 AM, oldirty said:

Pretty sure recoil is a backwards movement not upwards. Otherwise this would not work.

He holds the gun only on the pistol grip and fires a rather big burst in the end with full auto. The weapon did not climb a mm.

Upwards recoil is not caused by the gun, but by the shooter himself. Thats how the physics work...

Muzzle rise is caused by the contact points of the shooter being below the weapons center of mass mixed with the force caused by expanding gases being above. When you shoot, the expanding gases send recoil impulse directly backwards, the main points of contact(Shoulder/Stock and Hand/grip) are directly below the center mass of the weapon, this mixed with the shooter exerting force forward to control the impulse directs all forces towards the center of mass, creating the muzzle rise.

The bigger the cartridge, and the higher ROF the higher muzzle rise will become, unless that weapon is heavy as duck to help counteract the recoil impulses.

Rested weapons create new points of contact foward, allows better distribution of the force created by backwards and forward forces, hence why the muzzle doesn't rise much when rested on a surface or on a bipod... unless it's one large caliber weapon with a very hot load.
 

Edited by DeadEyeKiwi

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TheColdVein

This is not Squad. This is off topic and I will move it there.

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Stupri
On 9/17/2019 at 8:38 PM, Mad_Dog8762 said:

That COULD be why I am not as bothered by the recoil of SQUAD, I play with VERY high DPI (1900) where most of my friends play at around 800-1000 (not sure what is considered normal)


For me, managing recoil in SQUAD simply requires a gentle and easy pull down (as you would have for recoil in basically ANY shooter)
If my sensitivity was much lower, and I had to drag much farther for the same compensation, I could see the issue. 

 

 

Perceived recoil would depend on the weapon system, but all things being equal, 7.62x51.

So my question is: why do you honestly believe that a heavier bullet going faster does less internal damage than a .45 pistol round?

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Mad_Dog8762
11 hours ago, Stupri said:

So my question is: why do you honestly believe that a heavier bullet going faster does less internal damage than a .45 pistol round?

Surface area

 

The same principle as to why doing a belly flop in a pool hurts WAY MORE than a proper dive (even if the dive were significantly faster)

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Stupri
On 9/24/2019 at 6:29 PM, Mad_Dog8762 said:

Surface area

 

The same principle as to why doing a belly flop in a pool hurts WAY MORE than a proper dive (even if the dive were significantly faster)

Yeah but in this case the diver is the bullet. It doesn't matter how much damage is done to the projectile. A 5.56 had more energy than a .45, and if you shoot someone with a 5.56 and it doesn't overpen then obviously more energy is dumped into the target. 

 

What about a 5.56 vs a 9mm Flobert? 9mm Flobert has a larger surface area than 5.56. 

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Mad_Dog8762
9 hours ago, Stupri said:

Yeah but in this case the diver is the bullet. It doesn't matter how much damage is done to the projectile. A 5.56 had more energy than a .45, and if you shoot someone with a 5.56 and it doesn't overpen then obviously more energy is dumped into the target. 

 

What about a 5.56 vs a 9mm Flobert? 9mm Flobert has a larger surface area than 5.56. 

Well sure

I don't know the 9mm Flobert round so I cant make any educated statement on it.

 

I think of it as the same principle between Ball and Hollowpoints

Hollows do more damage due to expansion = greater Surface Area

 

If the 5.56mm TUMBLES and DOESNT pen through and through (like I know the 7.62x39 TENDS to) then I could be wrong.

 

But GENERALLY, I WOULD argue that in MOST cases, a victim would FEEL the .45 more simply due to Surface area vs a Ball 5.56

Tumbling WOULD change that argument, yes

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Stupri
13 hours ago, Mad_Dog8762 said:

Well sure

I don't know the 9mm Flobert round so I cant make any educated statement on it.

 

I think of it as the same principle between Ball and Hollowpoints

Hollows do more damage due to expansion = greater Surface Area

 

If the 5.56mm TUMBLES and DOESNT pen through and through (like I know the 7.62x39 TENDS to) then I could be wrong.

 

But GENERALLY, I WOULD argue that in MOST cases, a victim would FEEL the .45 more simply due to Surface area vs a Ball 5.56

Tumbling WOULD change that argument, yes

So just to be sure, you're saying the primary measurement of lethality, the only thing that really matters, is the diameter of the projectile, right?

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Sharkey_Ward
18 hours ago, Mad_Dog8762 said:

Well sure

I don't know the 9mm Flobert round so I cant make any educated statement on it.

 

I think of it as the same principle between Ball and Hollowpoints

Hollows do more damage due to expansion = greater Surface Area

 

If the 5.56mm TUMBLES and DOESNT pen through and through (like I know the 7.62x39 TENDS to) then I could be wrong.

 

But GENERALLY, I WOULD argue that in MOST cases, a victim would FEEL the .45 more simply due to Surface area vs a Ball 5.56

Tumbling WOULD change that argument, yes

The data disagrees with basically everything you said. Please stop posting, this is more embarrassing for me to read than it is for you to type out.

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Mad_Dog8762
13 hours ago, Stupri said:

So just to be sure, you're saying the primary measurement of lethality, the only thing that really matters, is the diameter of the projectile, right?

Lethality and stopping power are separate

I think 5.56 has greater LETHALITY in the long run, but I do believe .45 has more stopping power.

 

I remember back when the US military was considering 6.8mm instead of 5.56, because of repeated occurrences of insurgents taking multiple rounds and not going down (albeit dying short time later, but when dealing with Suicide Bombers/fighters that's obviously less than ideal)

7 hours ago, Sharkey_Ward said:

The data disagrees with basically everything you said. Please stop posting, this is more embarrassing for me to read than it is for you to type out.

Didn't have time to read the whole thing yet

But does it separate "rifle" into more categories? That's pretty damn broad.

And again, there is a difference between lethality and stopping power. 

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Sharkey_Ward
16 hours ago, Mad_Dog8762 said:

Lethality and stopping power are separate

I think 5.56 has greater LETHALITY in the long run, but I do believe .45 has more stopping power.

 

I remember back when the US military was considering 6.8mm instead of 5.56, because of repeated occurrences of insurgents taking multiple rounds and not going down (albeit dying short time later, but when dealing with Suicide Bombers/fighters that's obviously less than ideal)

Didn't have time to read the whole thing yet

But does it separate "rifle" into more categories? That's pretty damn broad.

And again, there is a difference between lethality and stopping power. 

6FGgCAM.png
jrtRBa6.pngKi5cPhy.pngPJ25fDi.png

Source: Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness. Firearms Training Unit FBI Academy Quantico, Virginia July 14, 1989.

Stopping power is not real. Please stop posting, you are out of your depth here.

Edited by Sharkey_Ward
Last image had part of the text cut out

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Mad_Dog8762
3 hours ago, Sharkey_Ward said:

6FGgCAM.png
jrtRBa6.pngKi5cPhy.pngPJ25fDi.png

Source: Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness. Firearms Training Unit FBI Academy Quantico, Virginia July 14, 1989.

Stopping power is not real. Please stop posting, you are out of your depth here.

And I could quote literally dozens of solid sources discussing how there IS stopping power.

From my discussions with COMBAT vets, stopping power is absolutely a thing.

 

People fall down because TV told them to?

So those without access to TV

Why do they fall down?

 

Also, the argument of "the victim of a shot feels the same force as the shooter" has been disproven repeatedly

Edited by Mad_Dog8762

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Sharkey_Ward
8 hours ago, Mad_Dog8762 said:

And I could quote literally dozens of solid sources discussing how there IS stopping power.

From my discussions with COMBAT vets, stopping power is absolutely a thing.

 

People fall down because TV told them to?

So those without access to TV

Why do they fall down?

 

Also, the argument of "the victim of a shot feels the same force as the shooter" has been disproven repeatedly

Anecdotal experiences are irrelevant. The opinions of individual combat vets are irrelevant. The only thing that matters is scientific testing and repeatable results in a controlled medium or statistical analysis of shooting incidents through an unbiased review board. No one aside from the FBI has done testing and statistical analysis of these events in a reasonable manner with a large enough number of cases. And unless you found a way to beat newton's third law you cannot "disprove" how energy transfer works. I will again invite you to stop embarrassing yourself in a public forum, as one day you will remedy your ignorance on this topic and look back on this conversation with the most pure form of regret a human being can feel.

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Mad_Dog8762
18 hours ago, Sharkey_Ward said:

Anecdotal experiences are irrelevant. The opinions of individual combat vets are irrelevant. The only thing that matters is scientific testing and repeatable results in a controlled medium or statistical analysis of shooting incidents through an unbiased review board. No one aside from the FBI has done testing and statistical analysis of these events in a reasonable manner with a large enough number of cases. And unless you found a way to beat newton's third law you cannot "disprove" how energy transfer works. I will again invite you to stop embarrassing yourself in a public forum, as one day you will remedy your ignorance on this topic and look back on this conversation with the most pure form of regret a human being can feel.

Yeah, if there is one thing I have learned from my time in,

What may be true under controlled conditions as per a report, can easily be entirely irrelevant in the grand scheme of real life situations. 

You follow that guide, imma stick with what I know.

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KentuckyFriedSpy

The problem I have with the game's recoil at the moment is that it favors skill farming rather than playing the game and learning how each weapon handles because of how much the recoil skill and assault rifle skill changes overall recoil. The auto compensation also feels extremely unnatural when it comes to the fundamentals of an FPS game and effectively ruins gunplay in the game for me as I kill more PMCs when I blindy spray in someones general direction than when I try to make accurate bursts to hit my enemy as the way the recoil system works punishes you for bursting, it feels less of a skill based game than it is a min/max game.

Unfortunately, Nikita has said that he won't change the recoil system because he likes the way it is but then again he has also come out and said he barely plays his own game soooo.... I don't know but when multiple influencers of your game that play 1000s of hours point out a problem in the mechanics of your game you'd think they would know a bit about what flaws the game has, these are the people who have pointed out the biggest problems of the game that have been fixed now because of them being shown.

Edited by KentuckyFriedSpy

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KentuckyFriedSpy
20 hours ago, Sharkey_Ward said:

Anecdotal experiences are irrelevant. The opinions of individual combat vets are irrelevant. The only thing that matters is scientific testing and repeatable results in a controlled medium or statistical analysis of shooting incidents through an unbiased review board. No one aside from the FBI has done testing and statistical analysis of these events in a reasonable manner with a large enough number of cases. And unless you found a way to beat newton's third law you cannot "disprove" how energy transfer works. I will again invite you to stop embarrassing yourself in a public forum, as one day you will remedy your ignorance on this topic and look back on this conversation with the most pure form of regret a human being can feel.

I hope I don't hurt your feelings but **** you sound soo cringey and as @Mad_Dog8762 said, things that are tested in controlled environments aren't privy to most of the effects of real situations and to say that anecdotal experiences are irrelevant is being blatantly blind about the subject. As for the subject at hand with your take that stopping power isn't a concept, you don't see people taking 5.56mm rifles out to defend from bear attacks when camping, you see them take .44s, .45s and even .357s because they have more surface area in the bullet which translates to more stopping power, more surface area = greater force it is that simple.

Edited by KentuckyFriedSpy

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Sharkey_Ward
On 9/30/2019 at 1:20 AM, KentuckyFriedSpy said:

I hope I don't hurt your feelings but **** you sound soo cringey and as @Mad_Dog8762 said, things that are tested in controlled environments aren't privy to most of the effects of real situations and to say that anecdotal experiences are irrelevant is being blatantly blind about the subject. As for the subject at hand with your take that stopping power isn't a concept, you don't see people taking 5.56mm rifles out to defend from bear attacks when camping, you see them take .44s, .45s and even .357s because they have more surface area in the bullet which translates to more stopping power, more surface area = greater force it is that simple.

People take .44s and .357s when out in bear country because carrying a rifle is inconvenient, and you can't get a pistol or revolver in 5.56. Also if you're calling literally 1300+ shooting incidents and their recorded results as "not privy to the effects of real situations" I don't know what you'd call a "real situation". Again, there is no such thing as stopping power when it comes to pistol calibers and until either of you starts to substantiate your claims with anything other than "well but my buddy said this" or "trust me dude", this conversation is pointless.

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