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Spectator6

Set-for-life vs Scavenging: Another take on hatchlings

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Spectator6

After listening to Nikita and other talk about ways to counter hatchlings -- most recently in yesterday's stream -- it made me wonder... Is it possible one of the main drivers of hatchlings has to do not with gear fear, not with players being "down and out" on their luck, but instead as an "answer" to one of the game's primary incentive structures?

Currently, a player knows that if he finds a certain key, he is essentially "set for life" *

* Yes, some keys now have durability with a set number of uses, but let's set that aside for now

Knowing the RNG nature of EFT's loot spawns, a player may reason to himself that even it takes 10-15 tries, the "reward" of eventually getting the item far outweighs the nuisance.

So what do these players do?

Grab a hatchet and...

  • Sprint to loot spawn 1, pocket the item if present
  • Sprint to loot spawn 2, pocket the item if present
  • Sprint to loot spawn 3, pocket the item if present

etc etc

If they get killed a long the way, then so what? They'll just rinse and repeat and try again. For them, dying is merely the "cost of doing business" in this way and they are not put off by it at all. And this is because they know that, no matter how much they die in the process, the "reward" that comes from finally getting that key, will "set them up for life" for the remainder of the EFT wipe. Rather than gear up and fight for survival, their main objective is to play EFT as some sort of giant meta-lottery game where all they care about is amassing money and stash value.

What if this sense of "permanence" is actually the heart of the matter?

Right now, experienced players know that once they have a certain set of keys, from that point on, they've pretty much "arrived" in the game. A lot of the "mystery/exploration" of the game is removed because they now have access to the game's best loot pools with virtually NO risk of ever losing that access. From that point on, they can farm those areas over and over and over.

Is it possible, then, that shifting the game away from "set for life" mechanics and toward "scavenging" mechanics could "fix" the hatchling issue and make the gameplay loop more rewarding?

What might this look like?

  • Maybe keys are no longer extractable and no longer secure-container-able (stick with me, hear me out!), but instead must be scavenged in-raid each and every time, and every key for the map is guaranteed to spawn in somewhere... So you want to get into Dorm room XYZ? Cool! First you gotta find the key. It could be in one of the dorm's front offices and/or in the pockets of one of the nearby roaming scavs, etc. This could also give more of a sense of progression and flow to each raid. "Okay, if we want to hit up room XYZ, first we gotta find the key. John, you clear out this wing, Bobby, you and I will go check this wing. Depending on what we find, we'll meet up here and plan our next route." This sense of a "dynamic" objective, where one action stair-steps into another, may lead to some really interesting raids and firefights between groups/solo's/etc.
  • Maybe keys remain extractable but all have durability settings with limited uses... Realistic? Ehh, not really. But it might be a decent counter to the one-and-done mentality currently in the game.
  • What else?

The other "hidden" possibility with hatchlings is that it caters to a wholly different gameplay loop for experienced players as well

In my experience, even veteran players play recklessly and overspend their budgets every single run, knowing that if they do go broke, all they have to do is complete a few "money runs" to make things right again. Learn from mistakes? Pshh, not really! Worry about dying? Nahh, no thanks! If they can always "get it back" in no time, then why worry about it?

I'm speaking from experience here because I've played with a guys who do this every wipe. They're already level 40+ and know the game inside and out. And part of the reason they are so high level is because they do exactly what I describe above. Best armor, best guns, best ammo, all the time. Which means they win a good number of their firefights. And in those instances where they do lose, well guess what? They've got SO MUCH money on hand it's no problem to re-kit again, OR! if they are running low on cash, they use their "permanent" piggy bank of keys to hatchet run their stash back up to millions and millions.

In their minds, they've "earned" this luxury because they've farmed for the keys over the course of dozens of hatchet runs over and over and over.

Now I don't know about you, and I can't speak for others, but to me, this also runs against Nikita's vision for the "True Tarkov Experience".

I understand, also, Nikita's worry about "losing" players who become too discouraged to keep playing. But for every "casual" player that EFT may loses from the True Tarkov Experience, what if it "gains" that many and more who are attracted to EFT's vision and scope?

-----

Thoughts? Suggestions? Improvements?

Thanks for reading!

-----

PS: Everyone I play with is eagerly awaiting Nikita's True Tarkov Experience and, even though we're all adults with families and jobs, etc we welcome the more hardcore elements of the game with open arms. I know it's controversial, but we all 100% support secure-container restrictions -- and even removing them altogether. But that's just our take on it, no bully please :)

Edited by Spectator6
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Spectator6

Just to clarify, I'm not bashing hatchet runners, per se. I have nothing against the "zero to hero" types (I think it's fun to bring in just a pistol from time to time as well), I'm speaking specifically to that playstyle of rushing loot spawns then disconnecting from the server. 

I'd even be more okay with it if the player were somehow "forced" to extract.

Perhaps simply "resetting" the player to his initial starting state up on a disconnect? So all loot gained on his person or in his container would be "lost".

If we're trying to think of solutions that still allow for "working" secure containers, that could be a decent change as well...

Though personally I'd rather them be exit-only and then work from there on changes if the community feels it's warranted.

It makes me wonder. Does BSG have access to how many players hatchet run? How many disconnect after acquiring loot items? 

If we had some numbers, it could help frame the discussion in a proper context.

Edited by Spectator6

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Yeavo

BSG wanted a "realistic" looting based economy and they got it. In video games risk vs. reward flies out of the window when you take away the highest risk real world has: Death

IRL, unlike EFT, we have  only one live and that's it. It's the single most important asset we have and most of us aren't willing to throw it away for pennies. In video games this is not a factor and thus people will always find ways to increase rewards vs. risks even at the cost of their virtual life. Thus not even completely removing the SC will remove hatchlings from this game. The reward of getting something valuable out of raid for no risk at all is too awarding. The more the increase punishment, as in this case gear, the more they will see people not risking more gear. For those who are angry for hatchlings taking all the loot will not see any improvement to their experience even if SC is completely removed, they will suffer further themselves. At the moment its far too easy to spawn in and rush to the nearest high value loot area to grab everything and then sneak pass everyone to the nearest extract.

The problem is loot and player driven economy. Until both are fixed you won't see any improvement to the situation. Simplest solution would be to increase loot at all tiers but especially quest and hideout required loot to ensure everyone gets what they are looking for. This ensures that hatchlings don't have a market to sell their goods. It's simple economics really: Demand vs. supply. BSG is trying to restrict the supply but as long as there is demand there will be people willing to supply.

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chrisragnar

If you have to find the key before you can do what you need to do in a run. The timer needs to be extended. Duck me of im gonna be looking everyware for ONE specific key while avoiding all the players with norecoilm4builds. They need to think carefully before adding more annoying things to "deal" with people not playing exactly as they strictly intend. Make the game fun to play the way its intended instead, that can be hard but its the right way. Instead of punishing everyone.

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Cloak

Put a certain gear score that needs to be met in order to enter the map? Put entry fees to enter certain maps? Durability on all keys? Make the key holder not able to be put into a container anymore or remove the key holder?

I mean what's the problem here? Nobody is not able to reach the same point as everyone else. So you got hatched runners that run through the map. Ok...? What if I told you we have only a hand full of maps and the game is in alpha..errrr..beta. And we don't know what the end results of maps will look like. For all we know maps might end up riddled with not so dumb scavs. And forcing players to actually have to play the game instead of treating it like a walk in the park. Nothing is set in stone yet.

Edited by Cloak

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FREEZED

on my opinion it is waste of time to worry about hatchlings , who ever gets best spawn for best loot will get it hatchling or not.

Why i do not invest for gear is the fact that there is not gear which protect you enough from 1 shots so why to use gear if you can do the same without gear. So being light and fast is better that slow and geared.

 

edit: if you wan to nerf hatclings, give best spawns for best geared people.

Edited by FREEZED

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finderr

Your first idea makes the game harder sure, but harder in a way that isn't the enjoyable hard. If that one key spawns in one place, but you can't extract it, makes it where people will just camp it for those who need it or want it, or if its a quest key, makes it more difficult than it needs to be to complete a quest. There's people that will just take the key to hold on to it so other can't get the quest done, and if they die randomly somewhere, no one will know where it is then. And after they use it, what happens? The place is open sure, but people who want/need it don't know, and now have to trek out to the place to see if it was opened, which is another way for campers to get free loot. [Not that I'm really against camping, but just creates more places to camp than need be.] Which then just makes that person to run naked, find the key, and get the items or quest done. It doesn't really solve it, just elongates the same problem. One huge issue I find is, I can do more than 3/4 of the quests naked. No real reason to take gear out, no incentive to survive when getting quests done.

Second we have keys with limited uses. I'm totally not against loot rooms having key durability. But once again, does not stop this "hatchling" problem. Even now, if I get a good spawn for marked room, regardless of scavs being on  the third or second floor, I usually will get to the room and anything I find I can use easily against the derpy scavs. Scavs are easy to avoid or bait. But scavs aren't really the problem either. Most of the time, get out with the marked room stuff too, if it isn't like 3 weapon cases or something.

Even at half HP, melee costing stam, limited time use keys, scavs in high tier loot areas, and no weapons in SC. Still have no problem getting things on naked runs. Could it be the SC itself? [ Note, I do these things with only Alpha ] Possibly. But there resides another problem then. Will never being able to secure things with absolute safety make people bring more gear out? Or better said, not have naked hatcheters? I don't think so, with it being impossible to secure money, why take out anything good? Just going to be naked running, trying to make it out with something I can sell then. This is going to be also paired with putting a gear score on the case in order to use it, or use certain slots. Even with just needing to use a pistol for 2 slots, wont stop naked people. Sure they have a weapon now, but it doesn't stop them from full sprinting to an area that can still get them something highly valuable per slot. If they make it too high, it almost will most likely not be worth what you can get out of the raid compared to what you took it.

I'm not one that disconnects after getting loot, if I found what I want or fill it up, I'll usually start looking for stuff I can carry out then, such as found guns. If I die, at least I still got what I wanted out, and if I do make it out with some guns, thats more money or something I can use later.

Flea market also causes hatcheting a bigger influence. Why try to play the game normally, when I can knowingly play the market for people who want to experience the game. This .12 patch, probably the first week, farming things people need for the hideout, making millions, because I have no use for the hideout. I could care less about healing, eating, or drinking out of raid, when I just acquired a vast amount of money from farming to just buy those things quicker. Sure the market goes down after few weeks, but then you just farm for next big thing. from there, already spent enough on each trader to level them to loyalty, all needs to be done now is just randomly do quests, which stated above, can mostly be done naked too. Though even with millions, the prices for stash upgrades are ridiculous. All this as a standard edition too, imagine people who have the EoD stash, and Gamma, they make 3-5x much more money than I will per run.

Some even say, make it really loud when you put stuff in your container, or make it take time, like 5-10s, or you get limited use opens per raid, or need a key to open it that you have to buy, or hell, a CHANCE of your SC to drop part or all your stuff on death. 

This, will, not, stop, naked, runs.

It's so complex, I find the answer to "how do we stop people from doing hatchet runs" currently impossible. Nothing is going to stop me from running naked to gain money with no loss on death. Regardless of having a SC or not.

Even dynamic loot spawn wouldn't help, if I can still have a chance to get SOMETHING out to sell, regardless of where it spawns next on the map, doesn't stop someone that wants to make money securely. And makes the game imo, very un-fun to play when you can't even find something you'd need for a quest as a normal player / vet. Sure that makes the flea market more viable option, but its going to be more over priced, and most likely wont have the money.

If they make it impossible to secure money for normal people as a result to stop naked runs, they just hurt the game because no general player will want to experience tarkov anymore. It's such a unique game, but has very complex problems.

Also, for people who hatchet run and D/C. I think the amount of AWOLS they get, should effect how long they have to wait to get into a raid. It will diminish with either maybe time, or raids actually completed / not died in. That could decrease the amount of people running naked, but wont stop them.

And yea, we will never know how the game will look when it fully releases. But doesn't mean we shouldn't try to help solve the apparent problem the "vets" are complaining about.

Even two new comers that my friends and I introduced this game to, have that mentality of never wanting to bring anything out, and doing thing naked and securing loot in their SC without us even explaining they can do that. They still love to go out geared when they can, but that feeling of gaining money with no repercussions is a safety net that they always fall on, especially with the hideout stuff, spending more money on that than gear and other things like healing and food/drink early on. They just wanna run naked more often.

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rav91

what i find odd is that so many people in the forums voice their opinions about how stupid hatchlings are, yet i see multiple hatchlings in almost every raid.

Something doesnt add up here, or do hatchlings not use the forums at all?

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Hamm
4 minutes ago, rav91 said:

what i find odd is that so many people in the forums voice their opinions about how stupid hatchlings are, yet i see multiple hatchlings in almost every raid.

Something doesnt add up here, or do hatchlings not use the forums at all?

no matter what they do to anything, hatchet runners are always going to be in the game because some streamers actually promote doing it. So why wouldnt they listen to there favorite streamer.

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traumacode

This solution has been posted many times - matchmake to "loot gear level" with other players and Scavs.  This way hatchet runners will spawn in with other hatchet runners and everyone will start on even playing fields.  The people who load in with top tier gear will be pitted against others with top gear.

 

Then, you can have an option where you click an extra box that says you want to load in with players with better gear than you so those who want an extra challenge can have it.

 

Right now, the entire game is broken at this very core which is why people are exploiting it as you mentioned above.

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