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edward980614

I don't know why we don't have a "knockdown" mechanic in this game

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edward980614

As the title said.

I know someone maybe mentioned this before but I have my point to create a new topic.

my point is :

This game is going for a realistic military shooter right?

then why we have so many scenes that two juggernauts  shooting each other with full auto and no one dies nor knocking down by those bullets impact? its not real at all.

we can see in real gun shot video even in movies, even a pistol shot can knockdown an armed man because of the bullet impact.the guy can survived (maybe no harmed) due to his heavy armor, but no way he can stand still .

so, my suggestion is  we should implement some kinds of knockdown mechanics to make the gun fight more reasonable.  plz.

thank you all.

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Yukari_Akiyama

Movies aren’t a good reference for how people die from gunshots. In the real world people aren’t thrown seven meters backfrom a shotgun blast. Watch some liveleak videos. Same thing with pistol wounds. People aren’t going to be “knocked” back from a gunshot. Explosions are a different story, however.

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malax_cH
vor 39 Minuten schrieb edward980614:

we can see in real gun shot video even in movies,

like this?

yeah the impact is real hard, like in Hollywood...

Edited by malax_cH
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Scionti
4 minutes ago, Yukari_Akiyama said:

People aren’t going to be “knocked” back from a gunshot.

Bullshit. Shoot someone in the chest with a large enough round, armor or not its flooring them. Of course it depends where you get hit, and a slew of other variables. But even a round stopped slamming against your head is going to rattle your poo. Same concept as "Scabbing" in tanks.

Edited by Scionti
Additional info.
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Yukari_Akiyama
2 minutes ago, Scionti said:

Bullshit. Shoot someone in the chest with a large enough round, armor or not its flooring them.

The video above your post shows someone withstanding 5.45. Perhaps you can provide us a video showing The contrary? Sure something like 20mm or 12.7x99 might get them to fall over dead instantly but those rounds aren’t in game at the moment.

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edward980614
13 minutes ago, Yukari_Akiyama said:

Movies aren’t a good reference for how people die from gunshots. In the real world people aren’t thrown seven meters backfrom a shotgun blast. Watch some liveleak videos. Same thing with pistol wounds. People aren’t going to be “knocked” back from a gunshot. Explosions are a different story, however.

thank you for your reply, sorry if I misleading my opinion but what I said is knockdown to the ground ,not knock someone back meters away.

we can see many real videos (if you think movies are not a good reference) that people get shot and he fall down to ground, and his teammate pull him away and ask his if he is okay, then this guy just said he is fine ,because those bullets stop on his vest.

again, my point is knock down to the ground, not knock back. 

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malax_cH

Dont forget the difference between Soft Body Armor like Police Officiers wear at duty, and a Plate carrier for Special Forces, that's a big difference! Only thing in reallife your bodyarmor is not a magic full torso protection like in EFT.

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Scionti

Feel free to watch the end of this too. Again, not a 20mm...and given he was already on his knees...just proving moreso that you can die quickly or slowly...depending on where youre hit here...rather than being knocked over.

Let me provide a bit on an anecdote, I used to shoot pigeons with my pellet rifle. The flatheads would knock them down into my yard, most of the time they'd be dead when i got to them. Using these super pointy rounds (labeled "high velocity") the pellet would blow through the bird and it'd fly off before falling out of the sky about 5 seconds later. Bullet velocity has alot to do with it, whether the force is transferred onto your bi-pedal ass...or blasts right through you, transferring little force. (ever hear of over-penetration?)

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/09/us/police-shooting-video-arizona.html

23 minutes ago, malax_cH said:

Dont forget the difference between Soft Body Armor like Police Officers wear at duty, and a Plate carrier for Special Forces, that's a big difference! Only thing in real-life your body-armor is not a magic full torso protection like in EFT.

Yes, he's talking about falling over while still alive - protected from armor, I believe. And yes I know there are "levels" of body armor. (Not just from the game but irl.)

I agree you should be able to be knocked over. Not sure how it would work...but I agree.
 
Red Orchestra 2 had a slow death bleed out system where like a major artery would be hit, and you'd be dead in like 5 seconds, during which time your character would scream hysterically for help and in which time you could fire your gun off (sometimes killing your attacker)

That game had some great ideas. Outstanding voice-work and music too.

Edited by Scionti
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Yukari_Akiyama

I misunderstood and figured OP was suggesting people should be flung back from their original position when sustaining a gunshot. Yes an unarmored person is likely going to fall to the ground holding his wounds and wincing in pain, however it isn't guaranteed a that someone will even feel a gunshot injury until later, or fall down like in this video where a US Marine is shot in the head. He staggers a bit and complains about ringing (which is already in the game) but is conscious enough to flee back.  How would the devs implement this? Sometimes your character just falls when hit to the ground and drops his weapon? Would 20 guage TOZ pellets be enough to cause a PMC in full ITOV to spill his spaghetti everywhere?  Could this be coded to not be a hot mess like early DayZ builds where your character randomly losses consciousness when sustaining damage too often?  

 

 

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FREEZED

bullet kicks when it hit as much as weapon kicks back while shooting so it does not do much.

bullet is dangerous only because energy hits smaller area making it penetrate things.

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RonBuan
On 12/3/2019 at 2:32 AM, Scionti said:

Notice how much he's bracing for instance...

The second Italian man is standing straight up with legs locked in standing position with both arms crossed behind his back... not sure what you think bracing for impact looks like..

Anyways... the videos speak for themselves...

However, I would support and love a knocked / fallen animation for people when both their legs have been broken / blacked out. Getting knocked down from gun shots hitting your armor isn't really a big thing unless the caliber is quite large. However getting shot in the leg / legs can and will eventually make someone collapse usually. 

About your videos of unarmed civilians getting shot when running from police... as tasteless as that already is... i think the point is entirely different since they are unarmored and most the people in tarkov are running around in full gear... but thats just my opinion i guess. But keep in mind there have been several instances of police shooting up drug addicts that are fueled by drugs and multiple shots don't affect them until vitals are hit. 

 

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Scionti
On 12/4/2019 at 10:27 AM, RonBuan said:

The second Italian man is standing straight up with legs locked in standing position with both arms crossed behind his back... not sure what you think bracing for impact looks like..

Anyways... the videos speak for themselves...

However, I would support and love a knocked / fallen animation for people when both their legs have been broken / blacked out. Getting knocked down from gun shots hitting your armor isn't really a big thing unless the caliber is quite large. However getting shot in the leg / legs can and will eventually make someone collapse usually. 

About your videos of unarmed civilians getting shot when running from police... as tasteless as that already is... i think the point is entirely different since they are unarmored and most the people in tarkov are running around in full gear... but thats just my opinion i guess. But keep in mind there have been several instances of police shooting up drug addicts that are fueled by drugs and multiple shots don't affect them until vitals are hit. 

 

I think you are entirely misunderstanding what I am saying...I am saying he  IS bracing - you seem to think I am saying he is not??

...And watch the actual videos or read the description. One of them was NOT unarmed. And for a game based off REALISM, showing some real world examples is the only way to do that. Sorry if you're sheltered, but the world is a brutal and violent place. I know this first hand, having both my father murdered and my girlfriend torn asunder in a car wreck and sifting through the accident photographs. So don't start on me with the "that's tasteless" nonsense. There was a point behind it. It was not to be gratuitous or glorify violence like you are implying it was.

I mentioned multiple times they were unarmored as well. Go watch a video of a cop getting shot point blank doing a traffic stop, be it their adrenaline messing up their footing, or the impact of the round, or a combination of the two, there are plenty of videos of them falling over after being hit in the armor.

Also are you not familiar with Spalling?

Edited by Scionti
added some more info.

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Plasterninja
22 hours ago, Scionti said:

Also are you not familiar with Spalling?

Spalling is not really something you have to account for with small arms and body armor. Higher caliber rounds hitting APCs or tanks however..

Anyways:

Small arms fire will never knock a person on his ass. If a round was powerful enough to knock someone down from the impact alone, the laws of physics would require the shooter to be knocked down as well. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction remember?

Physics aside, lets talk about why people fall over then. There are numerous reasons as to why this might happen. It might be muscle spasms from the reciprok antagonist inhibition, e.g. when muscle tissue is stretched, the opposite muscle contracts in order to lessen the load on its antagonist, this could cause a balance issue. It could be a severed nerve causing some of the muscles to be paralyzed. It could be a fracture simply causing the limb to buckle under the strain. It could even be a reaction to taking fire..

Am I just talking out of my ass? I dunno, 12 years as an army medic with deployments to Afghanistan. And now a physiotherapist.

 

I’ve seen people get shot, I’ve treated them, I’ve rehabbed gunshot victims.

Where do I want to go with this? Well as you can see there are a number of variables. So either BSG has to model the skeleton, muscles, nerves and arteries in order to determine when a gunshot should knock down a person. OR it would be RNG based. And I dont think ANYONE would want a knockdown to be RNG based. Imagine you kitted out in the best armor ever, and getting knocked on your ass by a makarov 😂

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RonBuan
On 12/8/2019 at 3:27 AM, Scionti said:

I think you are entirely misunderstanding what I am saying...I am saying he  IS bracing - you seem to think I am saying he is not??

...And watch the actual videos or read the description. One of them was NOT unarmed. And for a game based off REALISM, showing some real world examples is the only way to do that. Sorry if you're sheltered, but the world is a brutal and violent place. I know this first hand, having both my father murdered and my girlfriend torn asunder in a car wreck and sifting through the accident photographs. So don't start on me with the "that's tasteless" nonsense. There was a point behind it. It was not to be gratuitous or glorify violence like you are implying it was.

I mentioned multiple times they were unarmored as well. Go watch a video of a cop getting shot point blank doing a traffic stop, be it their adrenaline messing up their footing, or the impact of the round, or a combination of the two, there are plenty of videos of them falling over after being hit in the armor.

Also are you not familiar with Spalling?

Your not the only person that has had someone they love be murdered, myself included. Cry elsewhere. I'm aware the world is violent, but showing how easy it is to knock down an unarmored target after shooting them is redundant. The Italian men as I stated are standing with there arms crossed behind there back with legs straight and locked with very little effect from taking the round. Facts are facts and videos of unarmed people being shot usually leave the impression of tastelessness in my mouth since it's easy to chase someone that's not armed or tons of other options. Spalling is an issue, like others mentioned it's usually with higher calibers also it is usually only pronounced when shooting at steel targets. Most now come with anti spalling coatings for very little price difference. I own and have shot at some noting the differences. There are videos of people in Iraq getting shot in the helmet with lord knows what caliber and not falling over and running to cover due to the fear of being shot again. 

Knock down for unarmored people and broken legs? Sure. Knock down from hitting armor? Skill, luck, and caliber dependent.

Later alligator.

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OneTrueLizardo

Atm if the devs are still refusing to make helmets realistic they should at least make stopped rounds knock you the fvck out. 

Edited by OneTrueLizardo
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Scionti
12 minutes ago, OneTrueLizardo said:

Atm if the devs are still refusing to make helmets realistic they should at least make stopped rounds knock you the fvck out. 

Or at the very least severely concussed. Sorry but no pain pill is fixing that. Anyone whos been "punch drunk" irl knows to a lesser degree how that feeling is. 

Edited by Scionti
Tryimg to merge posts 🤬

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Scionti
On 12/9/2019 at 12:13 AM, Plasterninja said:

Spalling is not really something you have to account for with small arms and body armor. Higher caliber rounds hitting APCs or tanks however..

Anyways:

Small arms fire will never knock a person on his ass. If a round was powerful enough to knock someone down from the impact alone, the laws of physics would require the shooter to be knocked down as well. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction remember?

Physics aside, lets talk about why people fall over then. There are numerous reasons as to why this might happen. It might be muscle spasms from the reciprok antagonist inhibition, e.g. when muscle tissue is stretched, the opposite muscle contracts in order to lessen the load on its antagonist, this could cause a balance issue. It could be a severed nerve causing some of the muscles to be paralyzed. It could be a fracture simply causing the limb to buckle under the strain. It could even be a reaction to taking fire..

Am I just talking out of my ass? I dunno, 12 years as an army medic with deployments to Afghanistan. And now a physiotherapist.

 

I’ve seen people get shot, I’ve treated them, I’ve rehabbed gunshot victims.

Where do I want to go with this? Well as you can see there are a number of variables. So either BSG has to model the skeleton, muscles, nerves and arteries in order to determine when a gunshot should knock down a person. OR it would be RNG based. And I dont think ANYONE would want a knockdown to be RNG based. Imagine you kitted out in the best armor ever, and getting knocked on your ass by a makarov 😂

Sorry i overlooked this post. Very constructive. And in lieu of a fully modeled anatomically correct system, id be down to at least try an RNG based system. (Were still in beta after all...and itd be something worth checking into than say modeling ANOTHER 9MM SMG).   The only oart i disagree with is your part about physics...now im no physics expert myself. But i dont think thats entirely how it works...recoiless rifles...for instance...i digress. Good post, covers the variables i was talking about. (I know its Hollywood, but you ever see Fargo? Check out the parking lot scene...helps further illustrate my point)

Edited by Scionti
Trying to merge posts...on phone...ffs

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Plasterninja
4 minutes ago, Scionti said:

.recoiless rifles...for instance.

To quote murphy's law on combat: "Recoilless rifles, aren't".

Now I don't quite know where you want to go with the quoted, but there's recoil when firing an RPG, AT-4 etc. First there's the recoil that the gunner feels, from the gasses trapped inside the tube pushing the grenade forward and also leaving through the backblast channel. If you've ever fired, say an AT-4 or a Carl Gustav, and you forgot to move your leg enough to clear the backblast area, you would know that there's recoil. The energy from firing a recoilless anti-tank weapon is more than enough to knock you out or even downright killl you if you fire it inside a contained space (AT-4 CS was developed for a reason). All this is why they developed the "recoilless" rifle, to reduce the recoil enough for a man to fire it without killing himself :).

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Scionti
12 minutes ago, Plasterninja said:

To quote murphy's law on combat: "Recoilless rifles, aren't".

Now I don't quite know where you want to go with the quoted, but there's recoil when firing an RPG, AT-4 etc. First there's the recoil that the gunner feels, from the gasses trapped inside the tube pushing the grenade forward and also leaving through the backblast channel. If you've ever fired, say an AT-4 or a Carl Gustav, and you forgot to move your leg enough to clear the backblast area, you would know that there's recoil. The energy from firing a recoilless anti-tank weapon is more than enough to knock you out or even downright killl you if you fire it inside a contained space (AT-4 CS was developed for a reason). All this is why they developed the "recoilless" rifle, to reduce the recoil enough for a man to fire it without killing himself :).

Im.aware of backblast, im just saying that i don't think physics works in the sense that in order for a round being fired to knock someone down, it also has to knockdown the person firing it. Which is what i read on your post...🤔 i was citing it as an example. I also know they arent truly "recoiless" and ive seen plenty videos of people getting killed by backblasts...

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OneTrueLizardo
41 minutes ago, Scionti said:

Or at the very least severely concussed. Sorry but no pain pill is fixing that. Anyone whos been "punch drunk" irl knows to a lesser degree how that feeling is. 

Out of upvotes so take this instead:

👍

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Scionti
On 12/16/2019 at 3:37 AM, OneTrueLizardo said:

Out of upvotes so take this instead:

👍

Im out as well or you wouldve got one too. I swear. BSG does some weird things...why is there a limit?

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Plasterninja
6 minutes ago, Scionti said:

Im.aware of backblast, im just saying that i don't think physics works in the sense that in order for a round being fired to knock someone down, it also has to knockdown the person firing it. Which is what i read on your post...🤔 i was citing it as an example. I also know they arent truly "recoiless" and ive seen plenty videos of people getting killed by backblasts...

It is exactly how physics work. Again, newtons third law of motion: For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. This has been proven time and time again. 

Try watching from around 2 minutes.

As you can see, in order for him to move a mass, rougly the same weight as him, he himself will be propelled backwards.

Firing a gun is the same, you send off a projectile with alot of energy behind it, it starts losing energy the second it leaves the barrel because the pressuring gasses behind it cannot accelerate it any further. As the video showed us, if a projectile is to knock someone down, it would require an opposite force that is equal. That energy would be transferred to the shooter, knocking him down.

image.png.b66aaae569d3f2e6eb9c3253cbfc0245.png

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OneTrueLizardo
35 minutes ago, Scionti said:

Im out as well or you wouldve got one too. I swear. BSG does some weird things...why tf is there a limit?

Maybe to stop people sadfacing too much? If there's a limit it should definitely be more than the few you get per day... I swear people would know if their comment was off the rails or spot on more easily if there wasn't restrictions on how many comments you can react to. 

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Scionti
On 12/16/2019 at 2:49 AM, Plasterninja said:

It is exactly how physics work. Again, newtons third law of motion: For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. This has been proven time and time again. 

Try watching from around 2 minutes.

As you can see, in order for him to move a mass, rougly the same weight as him, he himself will be propelled backwards.

Firing a gun is the same, you send off a projectile with alot of energy behind it, it starts losing energy the second it leaves the barrel because the pressuring gasses behind it cannot accelerate it any further. As the video showed us, if a projectile is to knock someone down, it would require an opposite force that is equal. That energy would be transferred to the shooter, knocking him down.

image.png.b66aaae569d3f2e6eb9c3253cbfc0245.png

Then why when someone is hit with a projectile that knocks him down, the shooter doesnt fall down? Still doesnt seem like it makes sense. 

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Plasterninja
1 hour ago, Scionti said:

Then why when someone is hit with a projectile that knocks him down, the shooter doesnt fall down? Still doesnt seem like it makes sense. 

It is because the projectile is not what knocks him down. Why he falls is some of the reasons i listed in the first post :)

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