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TheWay

About Ninja/Unannounced Changes

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TheWay

Message from the COO:

I'm sorry that you have to find these changes by yourself. It's because we are simulating changes directed by traders AI. In real life, they will do it without warning. They see demands, track shortages, and make changes they see fit. Later we will add a feature where the traders will send you messages about these upcoming changes if you are in good reputation with them, have good karma, etc. That is why we can't say about changes AFTER actual changes are applied.

Additionally, the reason we can't mention these changes BEFORE they happen is due to players who can go into the game soon after the change note announcements. They will stock up goods with old prices and have the advantage of speculating the flea market outcomes. You have to understand this.

Of course, it is not a perfect system, but it is actually in a big testing stage. So, we are sorry for the inconvenience.

The good thing is that it is getting balanced in the way Tarkov should be experienced.

P.S. Item/weapon/gear parameters changes though need to be announced—I agree.

Nikita and BSG team.

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EnthalpyFlow

Price changes on barter/quest items are not only OK, it's pretty clever and a fine addition to the game. Changes on equipment/ammo/gun stats should be notified the sooner the better to the player base. 

 

Keep up the good work BSG.

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fpsdabs

100% All for "Trader AI" based supply and demand reactions, price changes, new loot locations, items ceasing to spawn in previously known locations to begin spawning other places and ANY and ALL other changes that create a sporadic/evolving/dynamic/"real world" feel to the game.  None of this needs to or should be divulged, as a main aspect of the game play loop is exploration of the environment and subsystems.

I am all for as much rebalancing as needed to make God tier ammo be godly but not so abundant its all anyone runs, and I really like to see you guys widen the range of intermediate level catridges to make mid level gear more viable and the game more fun. Just let us know about these changes ASAP so we can adapt accordingly. Ammo doesn't change properties overtime so in "game lore" our highly trained PMC's should know what those Ballistic properties are even if the "omnipotent game master" changes those values. ala "Mandela Effect"

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LenzOA

its good as long as it cant be exploited.

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TeasR

cool ideas ! I'm just wondering how this will make people take care about their karma because as soon as a player with good karma receive the information from traders he can actually spread it with other people that don't care about karma or are in bad state with traders and still have the informations. Still i don't know how to possibly counter that, hope it'll be something worked on !

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Randomletters

You could just make the ingame stat displays on armor, weapons, and ammunition actually mean something.

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GhostZ69

I was pretty upset with all of the unannounced changes. It was quite irksome.  However, with the knowledge that this is in fact an actual test of things and attempting to simulate the "free AI market" later on I am quite happy.  However, if we are going to make a change for barters, can the change be made, then announce it, here on the forums AND keep the old trade for like 24-72 hours or something?  I had been attempting to save up for a big barter and then one of the items was completely removed and changed to something else.  Leaving me with a bunch of items that are practically worthless now.  Not that I am broke or anything but it would be nice to have had the opportunity to use the items I had been saving for so long.

I am SUPER excited to see the communication here.  Thank you very much for that.  I appreciate it.  I really do.

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Sychopath27

Honestly, these trader changes would be perfectly alright, IF and ONLY IF you had allowed for trader prices to go down for items that were not being bought and were just constantly sitting full during the trader reset. These prices and changes would be alright if you hadn't utterly destroyed attaining any form of armor from traders, and changed it to trade only for a good portion of it. Id be perfectly alright with these changes if they were equal or balanced in anyway, but like everything else in this game you did not. I know I am not the only person that feels these changes are alright but, like most things extremely moronically implemented into the game. Honestly this game is going down hill with BSG polling channels of large streamers who BARELY PLAY THE GAME. Why poll a group of people who 75% have no idea what your game even is or is about. Why not poll streams of streamers who solely play this game and not just poll streams so you can gain more public reputation with trash communities of people who do not even play your game. Thanks for catering to people who have never touched your game! Hope this comes back to bite BSG in the ass. 

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KimiFelipe
9 hours ago, TheWay said:

Message from the COO:

I'm sorry that you have to find these changes by yourself. It's because we are simulating changes directed by traders AI. In real life, they will do it without warning. They see demands, track shortages, and make changes they see fit. Later we will add a feature where the traders will send you messages about these upcoming changes if you are in good reputation with them, have good karma, etc. That is why we can't say about changes AFTER actual changes are applied.

Additionally, the reason we can't mention these changes BEFORE they happen is due to players who can go into the game soon after the change note announcements. They will stock up goods with old prices and have the advantage of speculating the flea market outcomes. You have to understand this.

Of course, it is not a perfect system, but it is actually in a big testing stage. So, we are sorry for the inconvenience.

The good thing is that it is getting balanced in the way Tarkov should be experienced.

P.S. Item/weapon/gear parameters changes though need to be announced—I agree.

Nikita and BSG team.

I understood that Trader AI is being tested. But, the problem is that it sells out quickly. After all, the price of the trader is the cheapest, so the some players stocks it and resells it. In particular, M995 unlocks by completing quests. This should be a reward for the player who cleared, but can't be purchased satisfactorily. It no longer makes sense for quest rewards. There is no problem even if the price is changed. The problem is that you can't purchase.

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RACWAR

The fact that BSG has to justify themselves for changing some minor values is just absurd, they shouldn't have to. I don't see the fuss about it, people just like to get upset about any little thing they can find.

And then also spend time and resources on developing an in-game system to let people know about any kind of changes? Come on man. I thought this was supposed to be a hardcore game, and not a game for people who want to be spoon fed.

Edited by RACWAR
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DannCozey

You could remove the flea market altogether and it would improve the game in my opinion.  Had fun using it but it’s a weird element to have everything available all the time.

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Barangolo

Your game is economy-based and it is clear from this announcement that you are making wrong decisions and should be open to discussing these.

It seems your rationale for not announcing changes in trades is the fact that you are testing trader AI, suggesting that traders "think autonomously" and the changes are the result. I can understand that you monitor changes, but disagree that there is "AI" involved, considering you make the decisions in the end what changes in trades, especially the Hideout changes. I feel like you are suggesting that you are not running the show, but AI is, which, let's be honest, has a VERY low level of intelligence, more like binary decision making.
So why are there problems with this kind of testing:
1. You piss off a major part of your player community, because you make the game even more unpredictable. Not the small loud minority, the fanboys on this forum, encouraging you to do whatever you want and they'll adore you for it. But the silent majority playing the game and paying you the same money for it. This majority gets pissed off when they save up for a barter and you change the barter overnight without announcing it. You make the game unpredictable in the wrong places: instead of bringing more randomness into the gameplay itself (in particular loot spawning and AI locations) and preventing hatchet running and boredom routine squad runs who "farm" maps instead of the feeling of an open world where anything can happen, you choose to bring unpredictability in aspects that give some sense of progression and stability. If there is any kind of progression that people are looking forward to in this new patch, it's the Hideout. The Hideout has materials needed for this progression and has items that can be crafted inside. When you make sudden changes to the items (or units) needed, you break progression of players that have been working towards a goal with a purpose and you take away the sense of accomplishment of having acquired these items, often with a lot of effort. A good example is when you suddenly introduced the need of Stash 2 for important units. Or when hoses suddenly can be crafted AFTER manipulators got filthy rich by seeling the hoses. Or when you suddenly take away the option to craft piles of meds from carkits. Instead of tweaking loot spawn frequency in-raid, you decided to tweak the Hideout and trades/crafting involved. The problem with that is that you bring those in a bad position who have less stash space to start with, the majority of your players, the Standard package. They can keep much less items and need to get rid of trade items to save space, when later it turns out you made those items much more valuable. This favours hoarders, as well as pushes towards a pay-to-win type of game.


2. EFT is an economy-based game, more narrowly stash based: you can only play the game by having equipment (weapons, armour, meds, etc.) to survive (and extract) a raid, for which you need resources (money, trade items, equipment as loot). The resources have a market value and your stash space limits your options on how much of these you can stow or have to trade/sell or use up for lack of space. The goals are improving odds for survival by improving on your economy, so you can have better equipment, player skills, space, etc. An important part of being able to set these goals properly is by KNOWING what to do to reach these goals. For example, by knowing that an AK needs BS rounds to beat an opponent with an AK but PS rounds, or that a Gen4 gives you better odds of survival than a Kirasa, etc. All of this evolves around a certain extent of predictability, so that goals can be set. Contrarily, the excitement of the game is the UNpredictability during a raid of outcome of fights, the situations that occur. Also, the gamble of the equipment value you bring into a raid vs the potential gains in loot and experience, skill progression, quests done.
So there is a difference between what is meant to be predictable and what is not: you can destroy player motivation by not applying either in the right places. Your aim as a developer is to make sure that changes you implement give more purpose to playing the game: strengthen player resolution in predictable aspects by making these even more predictable (so that every time we log in, we have a purpose and enjoy working towards it) and making the aspects that bring excitement even less predictable. This means for example that while items needed for the Hideout should be clearly set so we have a purpose finding these (or saving up for them), the gameplay should be less predictable and AI should be roaming more freely around, shootouts should not be concentrated around a very few locations where meta-gear prevails, etc.
The testing that you do by making the market totally unpredictable works counter-intuitively: you bring insecurity to those aspects that require resolution from a player. How do you think your players' motivation is influenced to play when you suddenly make changes that took away the efforts put into a lot of prior work? So if you mean to say with above announcement that you will allow AI to make changes to aspects that are part of goal setting (e.g. making Hideout units or items within units), you are basically saying that you do not want players to be able to set any goals in the game. How do you think this will help your cause of selling your game to the public, when already EFT's reputation is that of the most punishing game out there with little reward for efforts? It's basic psychology that if you don't set goals, confusion and dissatisfaction is the result. You should be working towards setting clear goals to work towards and this type of AI-steered market is anything but.


3. You argument that some players make abuse of a system where changes are announced in advance, makes no sense: those players that want to manipulate the market will do this with whatever means possible and you are not slowing them down if the changes apply to ALL players. If you do not announce any changes in advance, they will be the ones that will be tracking the market the fastest to see any changes that occur and I am not even talking about those who are using bots to this end. It does not matter for manipulators whether you announce a change 1 week in advance or do not announce it at all, as the moment that the change is known, they will stock up immediately in an organized way and they clearly understand the economics of your game better than you do, otherwise you would not need to intervene this drastically and so often. The big problem with not announcing however: the thousands of players who have been saving carkits to change them to piles of meds and change those to IFAK's, suddenly have lost value and will be rightfully pissed. When you decide not to announce changes because you're afraid that market manipulators will suddenly buy up carkits cheaply because everyone will sell those at low price, knowing their value will plummet after the crafting is enabled, you are punishing EVERYONE else, just to prevent those few players from making a profit. Do you really think that market manipulators will not find a way to make major profits by anything you change in the game? And do you think that punishing all other players to slow these manipulators down somewhat is worth the effort? I think you know the answer to this question.


4. Your statement that you will add a feature that gives some players advance warning, is even worse: if anything, it is the market manipulators that will have the best standing with the traders and will be the ones who get the biggest benefit from a system like that. Those that do not even play the game, but make money on the fleamarket and sell it IRL on EBay. If you are implementing a system where there is a priviledged warning system, you will fully tilt the market mechanics towards the speculators and will punish all other players even more. Please do not do this.

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p4nnus
8 hours ago, Barangolo said:

But the silent majority playing the game and paying you the same money for it. This majority gets pissed off when they save up for a barter and you change the barter overnight without announcing it.

In Nikitas words: "A Niche game for a niche audience". The game was never developed for a majority, nor should the development be based on some sort of democracy. BSG shouldnt give a shewd about any majority, silent or loud. They have already listened to the streamers, casuals and newbies as well, too much! For example giving in to having helmets unrealistically durable and protective, to make them worth their cost. The cost and availability shouldve been the right balancing point, instead they made it so that the high-end helmets are ridiculously protective. Its totally against what the changes to the armor system in general are gonna be; when the armor plate system is implemented, the helmets will feel even more ridiculous.

Also, it seems like the "majority" is okay with hatchlings for example. Hatchlings dont have a place in a game like this and Nikita has said that he thinks daily on how to prevent this hatchling secure container abuse. If the majority got to decide, EFT wouldnt be the game it is nowadays! You wouldnt believe how many times the "majority" has asked for features like killcam, minimap, level based matchmaking, solo matchmaking etc.

8 hours ago, Barangolo said:

When you make sudden changes to the items (or units) needed, you break progression of players that have been working towards a goal with a purpose and you take away the sense of accomplishment of having acquired these items, often with a lot of effort. A good example is when you suddenly introduced the need of Stash 2 for important units. Or when hoses suddenly can be crafted AFTER manipulators got filthy rich by seeling the hoses. Or when you suddenly take away the option to craft piles of meds from carkits. Instead of tweaking loot spawn frequency in-raid, you decided to tweak the Hideout and trades/crafting involved. The problem with that is that you bring those in a bad position who have less stash space to start with, the majority of your players, the Standard package. They can keep much less items and need to get rid of trade items to save space, when later it turns out you made those items much more valuable. This favours hoarders, as well as pushes towards a pay-to-win type of game.

I hate to be that dude, but this is a beta test thats actually closer to alpha. These sort of changes are gonna happen more, theres no need to announce it. If they announce it, people who can access the game/ play it often and a lot will just get an advantage and can get filthy rich. The same what you seem to hate, some players gaining advantage monetarily thru flea market, would only happen in a larger scale. When the changes happen unannounced, profiting because of the changes is more random thus more fair.

8 hours ago, Barangolo said:

4. Your statement that you will add a feature that gives some players advance warning, is even worse: if anything, it is the market manipulators that will have the best standing with the traders and will be the ones who get the biggest benefit from a system like that. Those that do not even play the game, but make money on the fleamarket and sell it IRL on EBay. If you are implementing a system where there is a priviledged warning system, you will fully tilt the market mechanics towards the speculators and will punish all other players even more. Please do not do this.

This I agree on for the most part. No players should be given a warning. Also there should be no karma system at all.

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Barangolo
18 hours ago, p4nnus said:

In Nikitas words: "A Niche game for a niche audience". The game was never developed for a majority, nor should the development be based on some sort of democracy. BSG shouldnt give a shewd about any majority, silent or loud.

Let's put the words "majority" and "niche" in proper context: I meant the majority OF THOSE people who PLAY and have BOUGHT EFT. Which is a part of this "niche" you claim the game is. What do you consider the "majority"? All people playing all PC games?.. As for how "niche" the game is: currently EFT is almost always in the top15 most watched games on Twitch. I do not know the exact sales figures of EFT, but I estimate it more a 6-digit number than a 5-digit number. That looks pretty mainstream to me as well, but we could argue forever what a niche is in the gaming business. Let's agree though that if we look at ALL games that come out, EFT is in the top 1% OF GAMES in terms of sales, if not top 0.01%. The fact that games like Fortnite, LoL, WoW, Minecraft and other classics sweep up 90% of total SALES in the market, does not mean that a game that comes in the top20 is "niche", when it is only a small fraction of these top sellers.

The reason the game can be developed and can get this good is because of this huge playerbase: income is from sales. The reason that people have bought into this game is because of how the developers portray it (and like to portray it) and because of how streamers play it. Like one of these top streamers said just a few days ago, laughing, is that if people knew how the game really is, most of them would refund it. But there is no refund because BSG does not want to be on Steam. For clear reasons: the number of refunds would be so high that they could no longer finance the game. So it is in their interest to portray it via streams, which are ideal for that, it's like showing a pro surfer riding barrels and letting you believe surfing is easy. Nikita may WANT it to be a "niche game", but that would mean much less financing and probably a premature end of the game's life cycle. So no, economically speaking this is not a niche game and I do not envy the struggle of how BSG will be able to keep this up on long term.

18 hours ago, p4nnus said:

They have already listened to the streamers, casuals and newbies as well, too much!

The reason BSG listens to streamers this much, is because the game is so punishing that people rather watch than play. That is why streamers are listened to this much and have such power over the image of the game, as seeing top streamers play and dominating gives you the feeling that it is a gratifying game, when in reality it is a chore at best for most to finish quests or max out your Hideout, while instead of thrill there is fear, so everyone cuddles in squads to overcome their fear. BSG is well aware of this and that is why they want to please streamers more than players: streamers bring them much more money in sales than players' comments on Reddit. As soon as the game would have a public rating system like Steam, not only would the refund kill it but especially the player feedback in the reviews.

I am not stating that the majority should have any voice in how the game is developed. I was pointing out general shortcomings in game mechanics and how this affects the majority. You should also read what Nikita is stating. HE is apologizing for this and that. That clearly shows that he is aware how negatively the majority feels about these decisions. What I am saying is that if you piss off this majority by implementing changes that takes away a feeling of satisfaction (and not only for the majority, but to everyone), then the majority will react negatively and that's bad for business. In the case of unannounced changes to trades, the minority that does not mind is not exactly pleased with it either. That is clearly seen as well when he says that they want to prevent abuse of the system if announcing in advance. He basically claims that these unannounced changes are "good for you". Honestly though, beside the fanboys who do not understand the rationales and are just glad that someone explains to them that it's good for them (while previously they were pissed off), most people are not fooled and feel the impact every time. It is no comfort for most of us to hear that the reason is to punish a few people who would abuse the system and get rich on it.

18 hours ago, p4nnus said:

Also, it seems like the "majority" is okay with hatchlings for example. Hatchlings dont have a place in a game like this and Nikita has said that he thinks daily on how to prevent this hatchling secure container abuse.

On hatchlings: IF the majority is not against it (which seems unclear for lack of proper polls among a wider player audience), would that not be a sign that this "majority" feels that it is justified? Which means that basic game mechanics are wrong at the core, if it forces people to hatchet run. I have seen an increase of hatchet runners and exit campers this patch and for good reason: the more money focussed the game is, the more people will be hatchet running and exit camping, as they know that now every single item/slot has good value and it is worth killing anyone or run through the hidden stashes to get a decent profit with zero risk. You seem to blame the majority for approving of game mechanics that I agree are bad for the game, but fail to understand that it is the result of bad developer decisions and not the stupidity of the majority. People play the game the way they can and the way they have most fun playing it. And the way they can is determined by the way it is designed. If the game is overly money-focussed, they will hatchet run. If the game is overly punishing for solo players, they will cuddle up to lessen the fear. Blaming them for playing in the way they have most fun with it is like saying that it is your fault for throwing up spoilt food and not the store's fault that sold it to you.

18 hours ago, p4nnus said:

I hate to be that dude, but this is a beta test thats actually closer to alpha. These sort of changes are gonna happen more, theres no need to announce it.

That is some weird logic: "this is a testphase so it is OK to make bad changes and let's not even question its logic". Actually, even Nikita explains the reason and shows understanding to players' needs, just does not make coherent sense of it. You probably misunderstand what I wrote so far: the issue is not if something is unannounced in general. For example, I do not have any issue with the new sniper tower at Customs, the increase of keyspawns of the past days, the implementation of food/drink mechanics, etc., because these do not impact any progression. The issue is when you make changes that have significant negative impact on progression that a player HAS BEEN WORKING towards. There should be easy solutions to prevent this, but the devs make some wrong decisions in my opinion. For example, when an item is needed for the Hideout that is rare and gives way for market manipulation, like hoses were initially, then instead of fixing this by being them able to be crafted (in the toilet..), just increase the spawn rate of the hoses. Because if you don't, then the items needed for making the hose will be inflated and if these are rare, nothing has been fixed just the problem shoved to another problem. The other example is that those who progress faster in Hideout maxing out can inflate the needed items earlier to the detriment of the majority, which is why you will always have absurdly expensive items, slowing down the majority much more instead of those who need slowing down before they peak out. Instead of tweaking loot spawns (which should be easy, see food/drink solved properly), they tweak item production in the Hideout, which just creates new problems. This whole concept of inflation benefits exactly those market manipulators that they want to hold back and creates more hatchet running, exit camping, etc.

18 hours ago, p4nnus said:

If they announce it, people who can access the game/ play it often and a lot will just get an advantage and can get filthy rich.

Would you care to explain how this would happen? You are repeating the dev's words, but do you actually understand how the flea market's economy works? I would like to understand the negative impact that announcing has over not announcing, because I do not believe there are more drawbacks to it. Like I said before, market manipulation is due to knowing how the market works. Once you know the mechanics, you can manipulate it. If anything, those playing more often can react faster and exploit these mechanics.

 

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p4nnus
22 hours ago, Barangolo said:

Let's put the words "majority" and "niche" in proper context: I meant the majority OF THOSE people who PLAY and have BOUGHT EFT. Which is a part of this "niche" you claim the game is. What do you consider the "majority"? All people playing all PC games?.. As for how "niche" the game is: currently EFT is almost always in the top15 most watched games on Twitch. I do not know the exact sales figures of EFT, but I estimate it more a 6-digit number than a 5-digit number. That looks pretty mainstream to me as well, but we could argue forever what a niche is in the gaming business. Let's agree though that if we look at ALL games that come out, EFT is in the top 1% OF GAMES in terms of sales, if not top 0.01%. The fact that games like Fortnite, LoL, WoW, Minecraft and other classics sweep up 90% of total SALES in the market, does not mean that a game that comes in the top20 is "niche", when it is only a small fraction of these top sellers.

The reason the game can be developed and can get this good is because of this huge playerbase: income is from sales. The reason that people have bought into this game is because of how the developers portray it (and like to portray it) and because of how streamers play it. Like one of these top streamers said just a few days ago, laughing, is that if people knew how the game really is, most of them would refund it. But there is no refund because BSG does not want to be on Steam. For clear reasons: the number of refunds would be so high that they could no longer finance the game. So it is in their interest to portray it via streams, which are ideal for that, it's like showing a pro surfer riding barrels and letting you believe surfing is easy. Nikita may WANT it to be a "niche game", but that would mean much less financing and probably a premature end of the game's life cycle. So no, economically speaking this is not a niche game and I do not envy the struggle of how BSG will be able to keep this up on long term.

The niche is the audience EFT is meant for, the people who enjoy HC FPS' with stalker styled RPG mechanics, unforgiving and hard gameplay with a steep and tall learning curve. There is an influx of players who enjoy watching the game but are not a part of the group of players who really enjoy the sort of gameplay EFT is meant to provide. Its still not as hard and unforgiving as it will be, if the things that have been confirmed to be in the works will actually be implemented. Not to even talk about the secure container nerf.

I couldnt care less how much its being watched. It shouldnt matter at all, but I do recognize it does ofc. Anyways, BSG announced that EFT hit the record of 30 000 concurrent players a week or few a go, so yeah, there might be 100 000 - 200 000 copies sold. Still doesnt mean that the devs should listen to any majority. Ofc feedback should be listened to, but not the kind that tries to change the game without actually understanding what it tries to be.

The game has done well because its pioneering in certain systems and elements. Its different and has no direct competition. So many of the suggestions here try to make it be less different and easier. Thats the main reason majority doesnt get to decide: majority wants a more casual and easy to pick up shooter.

EFT is probably gonna be on steam when its release ready. Right now BSG is capitalizing on the fact that people buy games, even early access games on a whim, just by looking at a streamer do well in them.

22 hours ago, Barangolo said:

The reason BSG listens to streamers this much, is because the game is so punishing that people rather watch than play. That is why streamers are listened to this much and have such power over the image of the game, as seeing top streamers play and dominating gives you the feeling that it is a gratifying game, when in reality it is a chore at best for most to finish quests or max out your Hideout, while instead of thrill there is fear, so everyone cuddles in squads to overcome their fear. BSG is well aware of this and that is why they want to please streamers more than players: streamers bring them much more money in sales than players' comments on Reddit. As soon as the game would have a public rating system like Steam, not only would the refund kill it but especially the player feedback in the reviews.

I am not stating that the majority should have any voice in how the game is developed. I was pointing out general shortcomings in game mechanics and how this affects the majority. You should also read what Nikita is stating. HE is apologizing for this and that. That clearly shows that he is aware how negatively the majority feels about these decisions. What I am saying is that if you piss off this majority by implementing changes that takes away a feeling of satisfaction (and not only for the majority, but to everyone), then the majority will react negatively and that's bad for business. In the case of unannounced changes to trades, the minority that does not mind is not exactly pleased with it either. That is clearly seen as well when he says that they want to prevent abuse of the system if announcing in advance. He basically claims that these unannounced changes are "good for you". Honestly though, beside the fanboys who do not understand the rationales and are just glad that someone explains to them that it's good for them (while previously they were pissed off), most people are not fooled and feel the impact every time. It is no comfort for most of us to hear that the reason is to punish a few people who would abuse the system and get rich on it.

Streamers, the ones that are accepted to podcasts etc, are mostly rooting for even more punishing gameplay. Great example is the secure container abuse, aka hatchling cancer. Pretty much every streamer that got a voice WITH Nikita has been against the current meta thats against the risk vs reward gameplay thats core EFT stuff.

The quests we have now are basically sidequests. Anyone who is thinking of preordering the game could find this out by checking what BSG has said about them in the past. Again, its not BSGs fault that streamers portray the game in a certain way. They are in the fault by promoting streamers too much, but thats their way of handling marketing (theyre not that good in PR). Might bring in more sales from stupid casual players who fail to do their homework, not checking what the game is really about and then being sour when they do bad, but then its actually just brilliant marketing from BSG! Fools losing their money with no surefire way of a refund! A bloody gold mine!

You feel like they are a chore, I feel like they are a great way of making the player play in different ways, forcing to play on different maps etc. Even grinding, tho, thats a core part of a RPG game as well, pretty basic stuff. The quests have been watered down and made WAY easier already because of noobs whining. There used to be a quest where you had to kill 25 of opposing PMC faction players in 2 hours! It got nerfed after less than a wipe because BSG listened to noobs. It was supposed to be one of the last quests and thus hard, it was doable in a few tries! I take great pride in actually finishing that one. Now we cant have nice HC things like that, if the majority gets to decide, that is. Luckily mostly they dont.

Hahahahah cuddles in squads! Now youre just making your true colors be shown, out in the open. I can tell you that its not flattering at all. So youre just one of those solo players who are butthurt that squad play is less risky and better over all. That again, is your own ignorance and failure to do your homework. :sctroll: 

EFT was always meant to be a squad game. As someone said well here on the forums, the closer we get to realistic features in gameplay, the better IRL strategies and tactics work. IRL nobody "raids" alone. Operators almost always have squadmates to cover their arses. If you feel bad about not doing well solo, dont, just get yourself some squad mates from the discord or sth! :usmile:

22 hours ago, Barangolo said:

On hatchlings: IF the majority is not against it (which seems unclear for lack of proper polls among a wider player audience), would that not be a sign that this "majority" feels that it is justified? Which means that basic game mechanics are wrong at the core, if it forces people to hatchet run. I have seen an increase of hatchet runners and exit campers this patch and for good reason: the more money focussed the game is, the more people will be hatchet running and exit camping, as they know that now every single item/slot has good value and it is worth killing anyone or run through the hidden stashes to get a decent profit with zero risk. You seem to blame the majority for approving of game mechanics that I agree are bad for the game, but fail to understand that it is the result of bad developer decisions and not the stupidity of the majority. People play the game the way they can and the way they have most fun playing it. And the way they can is determined by the way it is designed. If the game is overly money-focussed, they will hatchet run. If the game is overly punishing for solo players, they will cuddle up to lessen the fear. Blaming them for playing in the way they have most fun with it is like saying that it is your fault for throwing up spoilt food and not the store's fault that sold it to you.

Hatchling meta aka secure container abuse is gonna get dealt with eventually. Seems like sooner than later actually. Again, BSG shouldnt and probably wont give in to what the majority wants. If they did we would have killcam and minimap, soloque for noobs and so on.

What you describe as mechanics are partly mechanics abuse. That I dont agree with and BSG has stated that some of these will be destroyed by force. In the meanwhile the game might get even more unforgiving and HC, which is a good thing. Ofc these things are made possible by BSG with their development decisions, but they just couldnt foresee everything. Especially how many casual players come play this way differently than what they envisioned. Im not blaming them for that, nobody couldve known that.

Abusing a feature in a way its not meant to is sth I think we can blame the players for. Everyone will "suffer" from the consequences, though I think the ones that are of the real "niche audience" just like these changes. I know I could enjoy EFT with no secure containers at all. I would also like to see Flea market be removed entirely. Its the worst thing to happen to EFT after pistol glitchers. I also agree that the gameplay is a little bit too much money-oriented, Flea market is the biggest reason IMO. Before Flea market you had to progress to gain access to better gear. Now you can just farm money and play EFT like a one life/round deathmatch.

Even if the game is too money focused, hatchlings can be removed from the game by making hard changes to secure containers. It can improve the gameplay over all by slowing it down for everyone else, too.

22 hours ago, Barangolo said:

That is some weird logic: "this is a testphase so it is OK to make bad changes and let's not even question its logic". Actually, even Nikita explains the reason and shows understanding to players' needs, just does not make coherent sense of it. You probably misunderstand what I wrote so far: the issue is not if something is unannounced in general. For example, I do not have any issue with the new sniper tower at Customs, the increase of keyspawns of the past days, the implementation of food/drink mechanics, etc., because these do not impact any progression. The issue is when you make changes that have significant negative impact on progression that a player HAS BEEN WORKING towards. There should be easy solutions to prevent this, but the devs make some wrong decisions in my opinion. For example, when an item is needed for the Hideout that is rare and gives way for market manipulation, like hoses were initially, then instead of fixing this by being them able to be crafted (in the toilet..), just increase the spawn rate of the hoses. Because if you don't, then the items needed for making the hose will be inflated and if these are rare, nothing has been fixed just the problem shoved to another problem. The other example is that those who progress faster in Hideout maxing out can inflate the needed items earlier to the detriment of the majority, which is why you will always have absurdly expensive items, slowing down the majority much more instead of those who need slowing down before they peak out. Instead of tweaking loot spawns (which should be easy, see food/drink solved properly), they tweak item production in the Hideout, which just creates new problems. This whole concept of inflation benefits exactly those market manipulators that they want to hold back and creates more hatchet running, exit camping, etc.

Youre twisting up my words. Or maybe they didnt deliver as I meant them to. Anyways, what I mean that they dont need to say sorry for anything. It seems like they are getting soft under the pressure from the "majority", which is a terrible thing. If it goes too far EFT will lose its identity and itll become just another FPS.

Yes, I understand. I also had saved things that I thought would be of value. Still, thats not a problem for me. I also think that hey HAVE increased the spawn rates as well. Those changes have gone unannounced for as long as I can remember. Again, the thing I can agree on is that they have made bad choices, like introducing the Flea market to the game, but also I understand that it was always their plan to have this player controlled economy. Its a brave decision eventhough it does contribute to A LOT of problems.

People think wayyyy too much about how they progress in these wipes. Everybody is progressing way too fast! We are wiped so often that the progression speed is hopefully even up to 10x what it will eventually be. That is why the progression in some wipe and how changes during a wipe shouldnt be such a big deal..they shouldnt need to announce it even. Who gives a damn! I saved hoses as well and other stuff too, that was changed, then I just accepted this, sold the trash and moved on. 

BSG has had very bad PR from the beginning, theyre trying to be better at it but clearly still dont know how to. Thats why Nikita was apologetic, I think. He didnt need to be nor should he continue on that kind of way of handling things. I kinda enjoyed the humane, zero shewds given non-PR! I guess I might be of the clear minority on that. Transparency is a good thing after all!

22 hours ago, Barangolo said:

Would you care to explain how this would happen? You are repeating the dev's words, but do you actually understand how the flea market's economy works? I would like to understand the negative impact that announcing has over not announcing, because I do not believe there are more drawbacks to it. Like I said before, market manipulation is due to knowing how the market works. Once you know the mechanics, you can manipulate it. If anything, those playing more often can react faster and exploit these mechanics.

Not announcing means that everybody is on the same line, gameplay wise. When they announce it some people will see the announcement immediately and profit the most, some people after a few hours and profit a little, some never and will whine about it as they are left out. When theres no announcement about economy things, its more random and thus fair. Who is active and playing the game is benefiting from just that, just like with other features. You gain levels and profit, you follow development and meta and profit, you are active and see the changes happen and you profit. I think playing more is something that should and will continue to give players an advantage. Being on the lookout for announcements is not gameplay.

Edited by p4nnus
typo, clarification
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Barangolo
1 hour ago, p4nnus said:

There is an influx of players who enjoy watching the game but are not a part of the group of players who really enjoy the sort of gameplay EFT is meant to provide. Its still not as hard and unforgiving as it will be, if the things that have been confirmed to be in the works will actually be implemented. Not to even talk about the secure container nerf.

This sounds quite elitist, to say the least.. You seem to be suggesting that those watching the game are not "ready" to be part of this select group that you count yourself to and you do not believe are meant to become actual players who would enjoy EFT. Well, nobody is born as a hardcore FPS player, neither were you.. We are all just at a stage of transition and it is not up to you to judge whether someone is before or after the stage of playing Tarkov or simply outside of its scope or could be drawn in at any time. Also, I'm afraid your vision is not aligned with the devs' in this respect: if you watch Nikita during the November podcasts, he clearly stated his vision of wanting to draw in casual gamers and win them for the hardcore experience. He seems to be more welcoming to this group that you are writing off. Also, as I explained earlier, you may want to consider yourself special in the Tarkov universe, but in our real-life universe where the game is developed, it needs to be paid for, which means there will always be more of "them" than "us" to keep up the investment cycle, it's simple economics whether you like it or not.

1 hour ago, p4nnus said:

Streamers, the ones that are accepted to podcasts etc, are mostly rooting for even more punishing gameplay. Great example is the secure container abuse, aka hatchling cancer. Pretty much every streamer that got a voice WITH Nikita has been against the current meta thats against the risk vs reward gameplay thats core EFT stuff.

Which is exactly my point: streamers influencing BSG for their own convenience (which is viewer count and income due to more entertaining and unique streams), resulting in concepts that clearly hurt the majority of players, such as experimenting with no loot in the SC at all. You were putting streamers in the same basket as the player majority and stated: "

 

On 12/11/2019 at 8:46 PM, p4nnus said:

They have already listened to the streamers, casuals and newbies as well, too much!

", I explained that they do this for their selfish purposes while it hurts the majority of players and therefore their opinion can hardly be put in the same category as what the majority of the playerbase wants and needs, you seem to confirm that listening to this very small segment is an unhealthy way the BSG makes decision. Good we agree on that, but let's not put these two eggs in the same basket and dismiss the interest of the majority because streamers are selfish moneymakers, shall we? Unless you meant that casuals and newbies are not a significant amount of people to pay for the game's existence, which is a different discussion alltogether: I think you are gravely mistaken if you think that almost 200,000 players out there think like you do and there are only a few thousand "casuals and newbies".. Seeing minimal numbers on these forums (always the same voices, these are the most involved players if you ask me) and the overwhelming share of opinions on Reddit opposing changes of the "hardcore" nature that you are propagating tells me a totally different picture on what the majority of EFT players looks like, not to speak of the absurd amount of hatchet runners this patch.

1 hour ago, p4nnus said:

Might bring in more sales from stupid casual players who fail to do their homework, not checking what the game is really about and then being sour when they do bad, but then its actually just brilliant marketing from BSG! Fools losing their money with no surefire way of a refund! A bloody gold mine!

Well, I think you are making it very clear now that you do not associate with a large number of players, consider yourself the smarter for being experienced in a game that (even according to Nikita in case you did not know) needs a proper tutorial and WILL HAVE ONE to compensate for the steep learning curve, at the same time are extatic about people being screwed over.. Not sure whether it makes much sense continuing to talk sense into you with such premises, but I will try to nonetheless as I feel you are more trolling now than actually being the rightout nasty person you are portraying.

1 hour ago, p4nnus said:

You feel like they are a chore, I feel like they are a great way of making the player play in different ways, forcing to play on different maps etc. Even grinding, tho, thats a core part of a RPG game as well, pretty basic stuff.

Partly I agree with you on this, as the part that I really do like is what you mention as well, being the new locations, being put into new situations, so definitely the quests are a good concept and it always feels good to tick one off. The reason I mentioned the word "chore" is because if the devs have me running after graphics cards that are extremely high value currently due to the Bitcoin farm or similar items that people are religiously farming for their value and then sell at extortion prices on the flea market (not to speak of those needed to be found in raid, while it is farmed like mad by hatchlings), it does feel like a tedious chore. I meant both the quests and Hideout in this respect and it actually applies more to the Hideout, where everyone is in the ratrace to collect all the bits and ends, just so the other does not get ahead. It would feel much less of a chore if there was no pressure behind it and we could all play the game at a pace that does not rush the player. The rushing results in more focus on loot and money than on fights and is that really the hardcore experience you want?

1 hour ago, p4nnus said:

The quests have been watered down and made WAY easier already because of noobs whining. There used to be a quest where you had to kill 25 of opposing PMC faction players in 2 hours! It got nerfed after less than a wipe because BSG listened to noobs.

Again, this elitism. Beside this particular example, do you mean to say that because of your achievements and superior skills, your vision of how difficult the game should be must be the standard?.. So if you were to decide, traffic lights for pedestrians should last no longer than 5 seconds, because that's how much you need to sprint across (with pride) and f*** the old, the kids, the mums, the wheelchairs, f*** all those whining idiots? ;) Congrats, you would make a great leader of men, many will surely follow you because they would know that you represent their interests best  :D  Well, luckily it is not up to you to decide how the game develops then.

As for the example itself, you are mistaken (again) on my thoughts on it: I fully agree with you that if something is an endgame challenge, it should be very hard and only for the best. Props for you if you were able to do that and such an achievement should be awarded, even more than now if you ask me, with some public recognition or special skins, etc. It makes little sense to make those things easy that are meant to be really hard. What you need to understand however, is that you're not the only player of this game and the devs need to balance the game's challenges in a way that its difficulty does not evolve around player p4nnus, but most of the 200,000 who paid them to develop this game. In other words, if they make such decisions to nerf a quest to give at least 20,000 of the 200,000 players a chance to tick off this accomplishment within a patch cycle, they probably make a better choice and keep more players than making challenges that almost nobody can achieve. So you should really think about the bigger picture before you continue your inner chuckle on everyone else around you.

2 hours ago, p4nnus said:

Hahahahah cuddles in squads! Now youre just making your true colors be shown, out in the open. I can tell you that its not flattering at all. So youre just one of those solo players who are butthurt that squad play is less risky and better over all. That again, is your own ignorance and failure to do your homework. :sctroll: 

EFT was always meant to be a squad game.

Uhhhm, so stating that there are plenty of players teaming up out of gear-fear shows me being ignorant?.. That's rich. :DEspecially since you confirm that squad play is less risky and "better" overall. Well, no further comment on that I guess, you keep on trying with these ad hominems, I'm not going into how flattering that is ;)

You are a true evangalist of the hardcore church, BSG needs more like you to tell the plebs what the game should be like. Your shrine to Nikita and his vision seems contradictory at times though (see above examples where you contradict Nikita even) and being a fanboy has the drawback that whenever BSG does something inconsistent, you have to go along, which makes you look a bit silly along with the perfect "vision" this game is pursuing (despite the plethora of hatchet running being Nikita's self-proclaimed major headache, ahum..). Truth is however that reality meets this vision at some point and every time I hear a fanboy (I'm sorry, I can only call you that after this last statement) repeat this mantra of hardcore-realism-vision and what the game was MEANT to be, I have to point you to the mirror and have a deep look and you will see that this vision is blurring fast. In other words, you can picture a squad based game as much as you want, but when the majority of your players are solo players and they pay for development, you are lying in that mirror. When you envision a survival-based raid model and see half of the server naked hatchet running, you may as well spit at this vision as well. When you talk about hardcore-realism and the result of such mechanics is people teaming up to cheese their way through quests and screaming in their little bedroom mics through Discord to your mate to secure your precious M4, well, I guess you can call that hardcore as well.. Or you can ignore reality, like you do now. Your choice of course. But pointing me at my "homework" and calling me "ignorant" for your blind idealism, that's hilarious :D I'll choose to see clearly what a computer game can and cannot be and not follow your wet hardcore dream, thankyouverymuch. It would be wise if you would not want others to think with your head, either, but respect that we just may want something else out of this same game ;).

2 hours ago, p4nnus said:

When they announce it some people will see the announcement immediately and profit the most, some people after a few hours and profit a little, some never and will whine about it as they are left out. When theres no announcement about economy things, its more random and thus fair.

I'm sorry to say, but your statements have no basis and shows you have no idea about economics and markets. You are repeating the same thing all over again, being that the TIME of an announcement brings benefits to some, but you fail to explain how time X compares to time Y. You should bring forth a clear rationale how this factor (i.e. time of announcement versus implementation) influences player behaviour on markets. Just give a simple example, so it shows you have actually thought about it and there is something to discuss. For example, explain how day -7 announcement differs from day 0 announcement (i.e. no announcement) or day -3 announcement or day -30 announcement for that matter and how this negatively impacts the overall flea market. Until then, these are just empty words and you have convinced noone of your standpoint.

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Yaron_R
On 12/13/2019 at 1:55 PM, p4nnus said:

Fools losing their money with no surefire way of a refund! A bloody gold mine!

I just initiated a chargeback claim with my bank and I got my money back in a couple of days. simple and easy.😇

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p4nnus
13 hours ago, Yaron_R said:

I just initiated a chargeback claim with my bank and I got my money back in a couple of days. simple and easy.😇

Shh.. dont let the fools know! :unice:

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Mr_Pregnant_3D
On 12/16/2019 at 3:45 PM, Yaron_R said:

I just initiated a chargeback claim with my bank and I got my money back in a couple of days. simple and easy.😇

Scummy move. You’ll be blacklisted for future purchases. 
 

How many hours did you play before doing a chargeback? Did you forget you signed up and paid for beta access?
 

I didn’t read through the entire thread so maybe your chargeback is justified but I’m seeing too many people pushing for refunds and chargebacks. 

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profoundphil
Posted (edited)
On 12/11/2019 at 5:48 AM, Barangolo said:

Your game is economy-based and it is clear from this announcement that you are making wrong decisions and should be open to discussing these.

It seems your rationale for not announcing changes in trades is the fact that you are testing trader AI, suggesting that traders "think autonomously" and the changes are the result. I can understand that you monitor changes, but disagree that there is "AI" involved, considering you make the decisions in the end what changes in trades, especially the Hideout changes. I feel like you are suggesting that you are not running the show, but AI is, which, let's be honest, has a VERY low level of intelligence, more like binary decision making.
So why are there problems with this kind of testing:
1. You piss off a major part of your player community, because you make the game even more unpredictable. Not the small loud minority, the fanboys on this forum, encouraging you to do whatever you want and they'll adore you for it. But the silent majority playing the game and paying you the same money for it. This majority gets pissed off when they save up for a barter and you change the barter overnight without announcing it. You make the game unpredictable in the wrong places: instead of bringing more randomness into the gameplay itself (in particular loot spawning and AI locations) and preventing hatchet running and boredom routine squad runs who "farm" maps instead of the feeling of an open world where anything can happen, you choose to bring unpredictability in aspects that give some sense of progression and stability. If there is any kind of progression that people are looking forward to in this new patch, it's the Hideout. The Hideout has materials needed for this progression and has items that can be crafted inside. When you make sudden changes to the items (or units) needed, you break progression of players that have been working towards a goal with a purpose and you take away the sense of accomplishment of having acquired these items, often with a lot of effort. A good example is when you suddenly introduced the need of Stash 2 for important units. Or when hoses suddenly can be crafted AFTER manipulators got filthy rich by seeling the hoses. Or when you suddenly take away the option to craft piles of meds from carkits. Instead of tweaking loot spawn frequency in-raid, you decided to tweak the Hideout and trades/crafting involved. The problem with that is that you bring those in a bad position who have less stash space to start with, the majority of your players, the Standard package. They can keep much less items and need to get rid of trade items to save space, when later it turns out you made those items much more valuable. This favours hoarders, as well as pushes towards a pay-to-win type of game.


2. EFT is an economy-based game, more narrowly stash based: you can only play the game by having equipment (weapons, armour, meds, etc.) to survive (and extract) a raid, for which you need resources (money, trade items, equipment as loot). The resources have a market value and your stash space limits your options on how much of these you can stow or have to trade/sell or use up for lack of space. The goals are improving odds for survival by improving on your economy, so you can have better equipment, player skills, space, etc. An important part of being able to set these goals properly is by KNOWING what to do to reach these goals. For example, by knowing that an AK needs BS rounds to beat an opponent with an AK but PS rounds, or that a Gen4 gives you better odds of survival than a Kirasa, etc. All of this evolves around a certain extent of predictability, so that goals can be set. Contrarily, the excitement of the game is the UNpredictability during a raid of outcome of fights, the situations that occur. Also, the gamble of the equipment value you bring into a raid vs the potential gains in loot and experience, skill progression, quests done.
So there is a difference between what is meant to be predictable and what is not: you can destroy player motivation by not applying either in the right places. Your aim as a developer is to make sure that changes you implement give more purpose to playing the game: strengthen player resolution in predictable aspects by making these even more predictable (so that every time we log in, we have a purpose and enjoy working towards it) and making the aspects that bring excitement even less predictable. This means for example that while items needed for the Hideout should be clearly set so we have a purpose finding these (or saving up for them), the gameplay should be less predictable and AI should be roaming more freely around, shootouts should not be concentrated around a very few locations where meta-gear prevails, etc.
The testing that you do by making the market totally unpredictable works counter-intuitively: you bring insecurity to those aspects that require resolution from a player. How do you think your players' motivation is influenced to play when you suddenly make changes that took away the efforts put into a lot of prior work? So if you mean to say with above announcement that you will allow AI to make changes to aspects that are part of goal setting (e.g. making Hideout units or items within units), you are basically saying that you do not want players to be able to set any goals in the game. How do you think this will help your cause of selling your game to the public, when already EFT's reputation is that of the most punishing game out there with little reward for efforts? It's basic psychology that if you don't set goals, confusion and dissatisfaction is the result. You should be working towards setting clear goals to work towards and this type of AI-steered market is anything but.


3. You argument that some players make abuse of a system where changes are announced in advance, makes no sense: those players that want to manipulate the market will do this with whatever means possible and you are not slowing them down if the changes apply to ALL players. If you do not announce any changes in advance, they will be the ones that will be tracking the market the fastest to see any changes that occur and I am not even talking about those who are using bots to this end. It does not matter for manipulators whether you announce a change 1 week in advance or do not announce it at all, as the moment that the change is known, they will stock up immediately in an organized way and they clearly understand the economics of your game better than you do, otherwise you would not need to intervene this drastically and so often. The big problem with not announcing however: the thousands of players who have been saving carkits to change them to piles of meds and change those to IFAK's, suddenly have lost value and will be rightfully pissed. When you decide not to announce changes because you're afraid that market manipulators will suddenly buy up carkits cheaply because everyone will sell those at low price, knowing their value will plummet after the crafting is enabled, you are punishing EVERYONE else, just to prevent those few players from making a profit. Do you really think that market manipulators will not find a way to make major profits by anything you change in the game? And do you think that punishing all other players to slow these manipulators down somewhat is worth the effort? I think you know the answer to this question.


4. Your statement that you will add a feature that gives some players advance warning, is even worse: if anything, it is the market manipulators that will have the best standing with the traders and will be the ones who get the biggest benefit from a system like that. Those that do not even play the game, but make money on the fleamarket and sell it IRL on EBay. If you are implementing a system where there is a priviledged warning system, you will fully tilt the market mechanics towards the speculators and will punish all other players even more. Please do not do this.

You certainly put forth a lot of time and effort constructing these opinions. You are obviously a fairly new player. If you had been around for a while you would realize that thia game is far from pay-to-win. The fact that anyone with a barebone rifle and decent ammo can kill a player with a 250k ruble kit is proof of this. Also this shows that you haven't been through many wipes or you would realize that all of this is going to be gone eventually. Those pixels and your perceived progression are only temporary and will be wiped. This game is a WIP, a Work In Progress, and there will be a LOT of changes made before it is officially released. There is no need to get upset. Just enjoy the game and don't take everything so seriously. 

Edited by profoundphil
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