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Ghost-Raccoon

New Beta Container Barter?

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Ghost-Raccoon

With the last update they changed the acquisition for the beta container. Previously you could buy it for ~5000 $ at Peacekeaper Lv.4 (which was imo already a bit late). Now it is a barter for 2x phased array element and 5 x military circuit board which is currently ~2.5 mil rubels.

So they made it even more difficult to get a better container for people who don't buy the more expensive editions. This is a dangerous path and I hope BSG will stop going it! Otherways it will be literally pay to win.

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TUALMASOK
29 minutes ago, Ghost-Raccoon said:

Otherways it will be literally pay to win.

Can you explain how having a bigger secure container is pay to win? Does it stop bullets and auto extract? Does the bigger secure container kill scavs for you, or find the best loot?

No. None of the above. It's not pay to win, it's pay to support development, and there's bonuses involved.

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MrSmellybeard
4 minutes ago, TUALMASOK said:

No. None of the above. It's not pay to win, it's pay to support development, and there's bonuses involved.

I mean, it is a liiiiiitle. Having a larger container means I'm guaranteed to be able to extract some of that shiny lewtz that I find. With a smaller container, I might not be able to fit it. This means I can make more money in general on the flea market, even if I'm a baddie (and believe me, I am), which will further fund my progression in the game.

I'm not here to argue with you whether or not it's a bad thing, but I think it's pretty clearly pay-to-win-esque :)

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Ghost-Raccoon
vor 16 Minuten schrieb TUALMASOK:

Can you explain how having a bigger secure container is pay to win? Does it stop bullets and auto extract? Does the bigger secure container kill scavs for you, or find the best loot?

No. None of the above. It's not pay to win, it's pay to support development, and there's bonuses involved.

 

You are able to risk free bring stuff with you, that you otherwise couldn't or wouldn't. Surv12 for example. It has a direct impact on each raid. It is not only a bonus. And I'm fine with it, as long as Standard edition players are also able to get them with reasonable effort. 

But most people won't even get the beta container or beyond that before the next wipe, making them more likely to buy a more expensive edition.

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TUALMASOK
2 hours ago, MrSmellybeard said:

I mean, it is a liiiiiitle. Having a larger container means I'm guaranteed to be able to extract some of that shiny lewtz that I find. With a smaller container, I might not be able to fit it. This means I can make more money in general on the flea market, even if I'm a baddie (and believe me, I am), which will further fund my progression in the game.

I'm not here to argue with you whether or not it's a bad thing, but I think it's pretty clearly pay-to-win-esque :)

It's not clear at all. Pay to win gives paying players a noticeable advantage in winning, a better container merely affects loot. Making money is not winning in Tarkov. If you consider it to be the case then you might be playing the game incorrectly.

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Niewiarygodny
2 hours ago, Ghost-Raccoon said:

You are able to risk free bring stuff with you, that you otherwise couldn't or wouldn't. Surv12 for example

in EFT wining is actually extracting map, SC has nothing to do with it.

2 hours ago, Ghost-Raccoon said:

And I'm fine with it, as long as Standard edition players are also able to get them with reasonable effort. 

And they can get 2x4 containers, quite easly?

2 hours ago, Ghost-Raccoon said:

But most people won't even get the beta container or beyond that before the next wipe, making them more likely to buy a more expensive edition.

And tahts their decision how much time they will spend in game. Game will not be EVER even for everyone.
I can rush epsilon within 1-2 days. Other ppl can't and won't have it after 1 month, thats all depends who can spend how much time on it. Also it's their call if they wanna buy more expansive edition or not, no1 is forcing them to do so.

You did mention that Beta trade has been changed. But still before such ppl unlock peackeeper lvl 4 it will be already +- 1month after wipe :D.

Anyway. I can afford best edition but  i will never do that, why? Because with gamma your "progress" seems to be much slower. And i dont like it, i prefer to see that "oh i ugpraded my stash, now i have 2x3 container, now 2 x4! etc

 

Edited by Niewiarygodny
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TUALMASOK
2 hours ago, Ghost-Raccoon said:

You are able to risk free bring stuff with you, that you otherwise couldn't or wouldn't. Surv12 for example. It has a direct impact on each raid. It is not only a bonus. And I'm fine with it, as long as Standard edition players are also able to get them with reasonable effort. 

But most people won't even get the beta container or beyond that before the next wipe, making them more likely to buy a more expensive edition.

"...before the next wipe..."

You've lost the war before it really got started. When the game gets a full release there won't be any more wipes, and during the beta anything is likely to change. The upgraded containers will be harder to get get for all players. If you're concerned that you won't get a better container before you lose everything in the next wipe your EFT priorities are wrong. Try to get better at the game so you don't need to worry about what you do or don't have in your secure container. I keep a salewa and a keytool in my gamma, and everyone has enough space for that, how do I get a pay to win advantage out of that?!?

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MrSmellybeard
11 hours ago, TUALMASOK said:

Making money is not winning in Tarkov.

Isn't it?

I suppose Tarkov is many things to many different people, but the progression of your PMC seems to be one of the core mechanics of the game. Ultimately, money is what lets you equip your character and this leads to further progression. I mean, it's not like there's a "You Win" screen that says anything to the contrary, is there?

There's enough in this game for each player to decide what their personal goals are and pursue that. If you want highest kills to be what you consider winning, that's cool. If you want most raids survived to be what you consider winning, power to you. If you want your bank account to be what you consider winning, that works too. Whatever the goal is though, how you manage your funds is going to have a significant impact on your pursuit of that goal. Having a larger secure container is a pretty big boost to both the acquisition of funds, and the mitigation of losses.

Again, I'm not trying to making a statement that being able to pay IRL money for this advantage is a good or a bad thing. Just that having a larger secure container is a big advantage and that you can pay for it.

Edited by MrSmellybeard
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oquiz

Perfectly said from Mrsmellybeard. im playing this game since two years. allways had a standart edition. played wipes with alpha and some with gamma. the big container is a huge boost for your progression. with a container big of a size like the gamma, your survivabillity has defnitaly less impact on you. the amount of money you safe by filling up those slots, make a huge difference in how fast you progress something. tarkov is about surviving in generall, but this game just works, if you got that what you need, to afford survining. with this also the progression and that just can be aquired through currency.
its not directly pay to win, as other methods that clearly fall under this, but you definatly purchasing an advantage.

i also feel squishy about theire changes to the container aquisition. that you no longer can drop it from your bar, that you no longer can sell it over the flea market... all this leads to the thought, they wanna send you in the direction that you more think of buying the advantage. i dont like this too and its definatly not nice to lock those things behind expensive ingame things, or mutch time investments.

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TUALMASOK

Except that you make more money if you extract. If you don't extract and have a few things in your case it's nowhere near as profitable as dying with a couple of knick-knacks in your secure case.

I'm quite alarmed that there's players out there that think that dying with a secure container full of loot is more of a "winning" play than surviving a raid with your character loaded to the gills with gear.

TBH it sounds like gear fear to me.

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MrSmellybeard
4 hours ago, TUALMASOK said:

I'm quite alarmed that there's players out there that think that dying with a secure container full of loot is more of a "winning" play than surviving a raid with your character loaded to the gills with gear.

I feel like you might be missing the point some of us are trying to make. That's cool, but I don't think we need to go around in circles any longer. I'm not advocating they get rid of the secure containers, but for most folks it does fall squarely into the pay to win category. I'm usually not a fan of such things, but in terms of crowd funding a beta game with these kinds of incentives, I'm cool with it.

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TUALMASOK
49 minutes ago, MrSmellybeard said:

I feel like you might be missing the point some of us are trying to make. That's cool, but I don't think we need to go around in circles any longer. I'm not advocating they get rid of the secure containers, but for most folks it does fall squarely into the pay to win category. I'm usually not a fan of such things, but in terms of crowd funding a beta game with these kinds of incentives, I'm cool with it.

I know what you are trying to say, I just disagree with your logic. Survive = more loot, die = less. It doesn't matter what size the secure container is. Remember - you can take anything into a raid to increase your chances of survival. Having a bigger secure container only helps you if you die. If you don't die, you get more loot, therefore surviving a raid is more profitable (winning) than dying with gear you have already taken into a raid in your SC.

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Scholar

Clown guy....you have to admit it's an advantage to have the gamma.  Maybe it's not pay to win ...but..it is an advantage..

..and... as you stated.. "your primary concern as you mentioned was just to help development along, "  then you should just tell them you don't want the gamma..and that you are quite content to be running around with an alpha container for 150 bucks with everybody else who payed less...after all... you just wanted to support development...you didn't really want the bigger container cause it's not really that helpful..ok..really??? noooo, that's not true..haha..but it's whatever..I don't begrudge anyone paying the 150 bucks and getting the gamma but lets not say it's not what it is... it really is an advantage at this stage of development..and all reasoning contrary to that is ...

jeff goldblum bullshit GIF

 

but good for you

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MrSmellybeard
9 hours ago, TUALMASOK said:

therefore surviving a raid is more profitable (winning) than dying with gear you have already taken into a raid in your SC

This is why I feel like you may be missing the point. I'm going to give this one more shot...

Nobody is arguing that surviving a raid is more profitable than dying, but I think perhaps you may be overestimating how often most of us survive raids. If you've been playing for a while and are super good at the game, that's great! However, a lot of us aren't as good and so death comes quite often. People are just better than me at this game, which is true for most people who haven't been playing long. EFT has a high learning curve, and that's one of it's draws.

I don't know how you use your secure container, but maybe let me give you some insight into how I use mine. When I go in, I tend to stash items in there in case I die early on to mitigate my losses. I have a permaslot for my key tool, but most everything else is taken up by meds and reserve ammo. Right now, my current kit is holding a CMS, a spare splint, 2 IFAKs, a CMS, and 40 m80 ammo. Quickly totaling this up with flea market prices, I get roughly 75k. The rest of my current kit (uley, hunter w/ kobra, 3 mags of m80, gssh-01 headset, and ssh-68 helm, is worth roughly 130k. So this means that an early death, for me, saves me more than 50% of my kit cost to restore. If I just had an alpha I'd probably save the CMS, 1 IFAK, and the key tool (which never moves) so that'd be 45k. This alone means I can keep 30k in funds more than other people in an early death.

Now lets assume I don't die early. I kill a few folks, maybe loot a few caches, whatever... now I've got some stuff. I have a tendency to stash whatever I think is worth the most in my SC, bumping out items of lower cost as opportunity arises. As I've said, I've found a few labs key cards... so trading a 180k item for a splint is a pretty good deal. Sometimes I get a weapon attachment worth 40k or more, so that's another swap. You get it, you've played this game before.

I still have to get out though and lets face it, EFT is a punishing game. You can die at any time, often from enemies you aren't even aware of. So yea, if you're surviving upwards of 80% of your raids, that's great for you but it may well be fair to say you're an above average player. I know I only survive and extract maybe 40%, and that's if I'm being suuuuuper generous. If it's a later game extraction, I'm probably coming out with at least 100k of goodies in my SC, and because I have 5 more slots, not only can I guarantee myself more stuff, I also have the option of bringing out larger items.

So if I extract, great! But if I don't, which is statistically likely for myself and many others, I bring out more money than if I had an alpha container. This decreases my turn around time and allows me to, in general, replace my lost kit faster. Surviving the raid is always the better option, I don't think anybody here will disagree with you, but since you're probably not going to survive, the advantage of a larger SC is pretty clear.

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Barangolo
10 hours ago, TUALMASOK said:

I know what you are trying to say, I just disagree with your logic. Survive = more loot, die = less. It doesn't matter what size the secure container is. Remember - you can take anything into a raid to increase your chances of survival. Having a bigger secure container only helps you if you die. If you don't die, you get more loot, therefore surviving a raid is more profitable (winning) than dying with gear you have already taken into a raid in your SC.

I am lost at this logic.. First you say "It doesn't matter what size the secure container is. " and then the exact opposite by "Having a bigger secure container only helps you if you die" Well, the whole purpose of the SC is to secure items in case you die, because if you survive you keep all of your items anyway, in which case the SC is irrelevant :D Which pretty much means that it is all of the reasons why the size of the secure container is exactly what matters here. If you die, a Gamma container will secure you 5 more slots than an Alfa (which, considering you brought in a key at least and maybe an IFAK, is more a 2 free slots vs 7 free slots situation, so 3-4-fold, not to speak of high value items like a bronze lion you cannot put in at all or any 2x2-slot item that will force you to drop your secured key in some bushes and hope it will not be seen and found). With the inflation caused by the Hideout item need, we are talking about a 3-4-fold pure profit with a Gamma vs an Alfa, with items now ranging 10-20000 usually you can do the maths of how much more you earn more with a Gamma vs an Alfa every time you die..

To drive the discussion to a gitgud "you should just survive" argument is not only silly as you're comparing apples with pears ("dying less brings more profit than dying", this is a non-argument if I heard any), but also shows you're a bit unaware of reality: most players do not have a high S/R %.. I would estimate around 30-40% for most, which shows that dying is a pretty high factor in this game, even some of the best streamers are not above the 50-60% mark. Which means that the value of the SC is very high when it comes to the most important aspect in this game: how to finance your warfare. Which you are also quite confused in: this game does involve around financing your warfare (and Hideout) as others before me pointed out. Good luck playing the game without gear.

Having said all this, the reason I personally did not upgrade to EoD (the cost of which is no barrier for me personally at all) is because my personal motivation in playing the game is progression. Progression from Alfa to Beta to Epsilon (I don't think I'm good enough yet to reach the Kappa within a patch cycle), add to that the progression of the Hideout in this new patch. In that sense I welcome the differences between Standard and EoD and that it is more challenging, otherwise I would feel like it is a tedious grind to level up just to be on others' level in terms of Hideout to keep up with the rat-race. It does put me off though when I consider that simply by having a higher edition, others make much more money each raid, even when we die the same amount of times.

In that sense, I fully agree that it is a pay-to-win game by now: take 2 people with exactly equal skills and time spent on the game, the one with the EoD package will make exponentially more money each raid (when he dies, and both of them die an equal number of times), while the one with the Standard edition may even fall back in finances, forcing him to run more scav (thus falling behind on quests, progression, skills needed for Hideout, etc.) to finance his losses. A simple example: with 9 slots in a Gamma, of which 2 are used for a key(tool) and an IFAK, the EoD player secures 7 slots with about 70-100,000 value, minus the value brought into raid. This can be a break-even or a minimal profit when he dies. The Standard package player will fill the 2 free slots with 20-30,000 only and if the gear he used is the same as the EoD guy, he will either have a substantial loss, or breaks even barely (in which case the EoD guy made a high profit). If both do pistol runs, the Standard guy barely breaks even, the EoD has 50,000 profit. If they go in geared, the EoD may just barely break even, but the Standard guy has losses with each raid when they both die. You can do the math on progress in financing your progression, getting better gear, etc.

 

So yes, in the traditional sense of the word, this game IS pay to win, as it gives a major benefit to be able to progress. It is another matter whether you want to make it easier for yourself by paying more. I personally do not. And I do not want to finance development of the game this way, as I think it does not serve its long-term existence.

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