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Spectator6

Baptism by Fire: A look at the community

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Spectator6

So many people here are adamantly resisting EFT's move toward a more hardcore True Tarkov Experience.

And I can't help but feel these player are entirely missing the boat for what EFT is trying to be.

Escape from Tarkov is not meant to be a game where FPS players can quickly "hop into" and find success. It's not meant to be a game where "everything is awesome" and there are no meaningful repercussions for loss.

No, instead EFT demands that players invest time to learn and grow in ways that very few other games have ever required of them. And they're going to have to come to grips with the fact that there may very well be hardset consequences. Even consequences that may arise outside of their control (fate and luck of the situation, anyone?)

These emotional "rage quit" inducing moments are not meant to be instantly relieved and smoothed over by the game. These feelings and sensations that arise in the player may be the very real manifestation of "combat" that EFT is seeking to tap into.

Most games on the market allow players to roleplay by making the player feel like a badass. Take CoD:MW, for example. The incessant rinse and repeat of firefights with high-tier equipment let’s people “escape” into a world where they already *are* an elite operator to some extent. Die? Who cares, keep trying, just by playing you’ll level up eventually. No matter if you’re actually learning anything or becoming better at anything. As long as your eyes are glued to the screen, Activision will reward you. “Oh, your team won but you did nothing?” Here’s some participation-trophy-XP! etc etc

EFT is not about “being” a badass, it’s about the hardfought journey and pathway toward BECOMING a badass. Of learning to keep your cool and press on the face of adversity. Of coming to grips with the feeling of losing something (“OMG a LEDEX!”) through no fault of your own (“Damn, just my luck! Pushed by a three-man right as I was rounding the corner to extract!”)

And yet, here we are. With a vocal subset of the community fighting this journey tooth and nail, kicking and screaming the entire time. “REWARD ME!” they cry out as they continue to mindlessly play the game. “I shouldn’t have to get good!” they yell as they continue to waste load-out after load-out, refusing to learn the finer aspects of doing a proper scav run, of how to avoid situations, of raising their success rate little by little.

  • “B-b-but I shouldn’t have to invest any time into this game!” they complain.
  • “If I want to mindlessly do a few runs here and there to hit up Shoreline rooms while watching my favorite Netflix special on my other monitor, why shouldn’t I be able to? Let me keep my juicy secure container loot, it’s how I play the game!”
  • “Wahhhh, you mean some of the quests might take months and months to complete? NO!! I demand instant gratification now now now!”
  • “I have no money and I refuse to take responsibility for the choices that led me to this point! Why should I be ‘forced’ to think of how I might be able to get in and get out with only a Makarov and two spare magazines. I want my M4 and level 4 body armor. Wahhhhhh!”

Do either of these responses sound like the type of vision Nikita had for his players when he dreamt up Escape from Tarkov? Are these really the type of “soldier” we think Nikita set out to form within a hardcore playerbase?

Of course not.

And all of these excuses I read from the playerbase trying to rationalize why things should remain more “casual” and “hardcore-lite” are just that. Excuses. People grabbing at straws for any reason that will prevent EFT from realizing its final form and intentions.

“Then I’ll quit playing!” they yell.

Okay.

Because here’s the rub. In my mind,

every time a player decides to turn EFT into a lottery running simulator and do nothing but spam risk-free loot-and-suicide/disconnect runs over and over over – those people have already quit playing Tarkov.

They’ve already decided to NOT play EFT the way it was intended. They’ve already “checked out” of the game and refused to face the consequences of their decisions and choices. And now these same players are trying to rationalize away their actions with reasons like, “Well if it weren’t for these free handouts, I wouldn’t be playing the game!” Or, “This is the only way I know to make money!”

Heaven forbid EFT actually force players to play the game within the clearly defined ruleset of get in, survive, get out!

C’mon guys. You’re better than this. Let’s cut BSG some slack here. Let’s let Nikita’s vision come to pass. It hasn’t let us down yet.

And guess what? If the whole thing backfires unexpectedly, that’s what betas are for. Changes can be made.

 

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CrackHDown

I have no idea what you just said. Im convinced you just started typing with no real idea either

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MrSmellybeard
14 hours ago, CrackHDown said:

I have no idea what you just said.

I believe he's saying don't make the game easier, or dying in raids less punishing. That the game is rewarding as it is designed.

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Arzzet
On 12/14/2019 at 7:24 PM, Spectator6 said:
  • B-b-but I shouldn’t have to invest any time into this game!” they complain.
  • “If I want to mindlessly do a few runs here and there to hit up Shoreline rooms while watching my favorite Netflix special on my other monitor, why shouldn’t I be able to? Let me keep my juicy secure container loot, it’s how I play the game!”
  • “Wahhhh, you mean some of the quests might take months and months to complete? NO!! I demand instant gratification now now now!”
  • “I have no money and I refuse to take responsibility for the choices that led me to this point! Why should I be ‘forced’ to think of how I might be able to get in and get out with only a Makarov and two spare magazines. I want my M4 and level 4 body armor. Wahhhhhh!”

Unfortunately, this is how today’s humanity think, not only the playerbase of eft but modern society used to have everything they want without any effort and/or paying money for the things they cannot accomplish by themselves. 
 

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DFA_Thump

Let's up the hardcore realism even more.   Once you die, you lose the game forever and can no longer play.  This whole ludicrous push for "hardcore" mechanics would require you to die in an instant, zero health packs (get rid of CMS kits, IFACs, all of it).  If you get winged, you're done and you're pretty much paralyzed screaming for help.  Painkillers only ease your passing and splints do not allow you to continue to fight and walk in raid.  You must find a way to crawl back but about 90% of the time you will pass out from the pain and die from blood loss.  Because hArDcOrE rEaLiSm!   Seriously, it's a game.  It doesn't need to be a walk through the park, turn off your brain affair, but it shouldn't have stupid, punishing mechanics just to be a pain in the ass (after death health loss, I'm looking at you). 

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Spectator6

 Hello @DFA_Thump!

 So it sounds like there are certain mechanics in the game you feel push things too far. Clearly you're not a fan of out of raid healing.

 For you, is it the concept of death being a bit more punishing that you're against? Or is it that you don't like the way it's currently implemented?

9 hours ago, DFA_Thump said:

it doesn't need to be a walk through the park, turn off your brain affair

At least we can agree that rushing loot spawns, shoving things into the Secure Container, then disconnecting or suiciding is bad for the game 😂 

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Yeavo

Hello @Spectator6

I agree on you're premise of making the game more "hardcore" but I think my definition of hardcore is not the same as yours. I think hardcore games as complicated simulation style games which allow you to have more control over every aspect of your gameplay and thus everything becomes a tactical choice from weapons and armors through ammo choices to your combat stance.

But for others hardcore means "grind like its your second job".

This is why I personally hate the description "hard core" because it in and of itself tells you nothing of the game and is more of a emotional/psychological marketing ploy to get overgrown children to play the game to proof "how much of a man they are".

Also people hatchlingfarming and outright abusing the game are usually high level and when you try to discuss these things with 'em they resort to telling you how they are "hardcore gamers who have been playing this game since closed alpha and you should just shut your filthy-casual-noob mouth, go back to fortnite and let big boys find every broken mechanic possible to glitch and cheese the duck out of it because that ducking hardcore!". Or that's atleast the impression I've got from the discord servers my group uses.

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Yeavo
On 12/15/2019 at 8:03 PM, MrSmellybeard said:

I believe he's saying don't make the game easier, or dying in raids less punishing. That the game is rewarding as it is designed.

There is a point here but what I've seen its the "hardcore" -crowd who are most abusing mechanics and systems instead and trying to find every possible broken system to gain advantage over others. This is a problem because nobody can clearly and objectively define what "hardcore" even means.

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Yeavo
3 hours ago, Spectator6 said:

 For you, is it the concept of death being a bit more punishing that you're against? Or is it that you don't like the way it's currently implemented?

For me its the design choices that make this game outright unfair. When I first started playing this game I soon realized that this game has the weirdest difficulty and progression curve for any game I've previously played. Your competing not just against other players and AI but also time itself. The further from wipe the wipe-cycle progresses the harder it comes to progress because of the rogue-lite'ish nature of EFTs character progression. Atleast in DayZ when I die I die knowing that the players I killed before I died had to start from scratch the same as I no matter how much progress they had previously made. Not in EFT. At level 10 I can ambush and kill a wounded juggernaut who was trying to take cover and heal but from his lvl 40 dog tags I can make an educated guess that in all likelyhood he will just re-equip his juggernaut gear and go raiding again. While I will have loot his gear and lose them in another raid and then be back using lowtier gear. This game rewards grind over skill and then the devs wonder why people (hatchlings) are trying to circumvent the grind. The problem runs much deeper than just hatchlings and "people not willing to put in the effort" its the core design and human nature of laziness and innovation to optimize risk/reward systems that are colliding here. And from all the social experiments from small to international scale we know: You can't change human nature.

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Spectator6

Hello @Yeavo, good to have you join us!

1 hour ago, Yeavo said:

Your competing not just against other players and AI but also time itself. The further from wipe the wipe-cycle progresses the harder it comes to progress because of the rogue-lite'ish nature of EFTs character progression. Atleast in DayZ when I die I die knowing that the players I killed before I died had to start from scratch the same as I no matter how much progress they had previously made. Not in EFT. At level 10 I can ambush and kill a wounded juggernaut who was trying to take cover and heal but from his lvl 40 dog tags I can make an educated guess that in all likelyhood he will just re-equip his juggernaut gear and go raiding again. While I will have loot his gear and lose them in another raid and then be back using lowtier gear. This game rewards grind over skill and then the devs wonder why people (hatchlings) are trying to circumvent the grind. The problem runs much deeper than just hatchlings and "people not willing to put in the effort" its the core design and human nature of laziness and innovation to optimize risk/reward systems that are colliding here. And from all the social experiments from small to international scale we know: You can't change human nature.

So if I'm reading you correctly, it sounds like you're saying that while it is possible for a player to "lose everything he came in with" upon death, the way that other things are persisted/carry-over from death to death kind of throw a monkey wrench in the "finality" (?? not sure what the word would be...??). And this seeming contradiction between a "hard end" and  "soft end" can make the progression system feel a little odd and disjointed at times.

Do I have that about right?

Interesting point, especially your comments on certain aspects of how the progression system is designed may actually be unintentionally exacerbating how people seek out ways to circumvent the grind. I never thought of it that way before...

2 hours ago, Yeavo said:

Also people hatchlingfarming and outright abusing the game are usually high level

Same in my experience as well

2 hours ago, Yeavo said:

you should just shut your filthy-casual-noob mouth, go back to fortnite

Interesting... So from what you've seen the SC-abusers are the ones claiming to be "hardcore"? How strange!

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Yeavo
32 minutes ago, Spectator6 said:

So if I'm reading you correctly, it sounds like you're saying that while it is possible for a player to "lose everything he came in with" upon death, the way that other things are persisted/carry-over from death to death kind of throw a monkey wrench in the "finality" (?? not sure what the word would be...??). And this seeming contradiction between a "hard end" and  "soft end" can make the progression system feel a little odd and disjointed at times.

Do I have that about right?

Yes. And "finality" is a good of a one word description as any I can come up with.

32 minutes ago, Spectator6 said:

Interesting point, especially your comments on certain aspects of how the progression system is designed may actually be unintentionally exacerbating how people seek out ways to circumvent the grind. I never thought of it that way before...

This is what I feel is the case. I also theorize it may be due to the fact EFT started development as Russia 2028 which was supposed to be a singleplayer title and Nikitas dream game, according to himself in multiple interviews. There are various core-designs choices BSG has made that make perfect sense if you're designing a single player experience but not for a MMO. Don't get me wrong, I still love this game, but from game design point of view some decisions that have been made make me baffled and this has been the only theory I have come up with that may explain what is going on. Combine this with the fact EFT dev team came from Absolutsofts Contract Wars which a more traditional arcade style FPS (what I've heard since I've never personally actually played it). Devs have no previous experience or expertise in survival or milsim -style of games. They've succeeded in many aspects beyond expectations but IMHO some aspects the inexperience shine through for all world to see.

32 minutes ago, Spectator6 said:

Interesting... So from what you've seen the SC-abusers are the ones claiming to be "hardcore"? How strange!

Here's the problem: There is no universally agreed upon definition of a "hardcore game" or "hardcore gamer". Its more of a honorary title some games and gamers give for themselves to distinguish themselves from "filthy casual peasants" (which is btw a term nobody can seem to agree either). Being a "hardcore gamer" is in many ways saying "I'm an internet tough guy" and that's exactly how much it should have worth as a definition. I personally like to describe myself as a gamer who mostly but not exclusively plays milsims, survival games and tactical shooters.

Edited by Yeavo

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AdhesiveTeflon
2 hours ago, Yeavo said:

This game rewards grind over skill and then the devs wonder why people (hatchlings) are trying to circumvent the grind.

Sadly this is true.  I gained 20 levels  doing nothing but killing scavs in woods with an SKS so I can at least get better weapons/attachments and more money so I can comfortably buy basic gear.  You have people that will literally start the game up a minute after a wipe so they can get their gear and level up their skills before the rest of the players can catch up.  It's become a job, almost a lifestyle, instead of a game.

I mean, there's ways around for a low level player to get around that; but then people complain about that too.  Can't ever win.

Edited by AdhesiveTeflon

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DFA_Thump
On 12/19/2019 at 2:39 AM, Spectator6 said:

 Hello @DFA_Thump!

 So it sounds like there are certain mechanics in the game you feel push things too far. Clearly you're not a fan of out of raid healing.

 For you, is it the concept of death being a bit more punishing that you're against? Or is it that you don't like the way it's currently implemented?

At least we can agree that rushing loot spawns, shoving things into the Secure Container, then disconnecting or suiciding is bad for the game 😂 

Hi @Spectator6,

   My issue is with the unnecessary health depletion after death in a raid where all of your limbs are down to 50%.  All this ultimately does is waste my time to go to the Therapist to get AI kits to heal something that shouldn't exist in the first place (due to my previous body being killed).  I died according to the game, so I should just come back with 100% health to try again.  Out of raid healing is fine IF you survive the raid.  That type of health persistence makes sense and gives a bit of further depth to Tarkov's gameplay.  To make life easier, a simple mechanic would be to add a medical personnel who visits the hideout and makes money off of healing Tarkov Raiders writ large (i.e. one click to heal everything for a reasonable cost equivalent to what it would have cost to use AI kits).   Or if the player wants, they can eat the time needed for their hideout's health station to heal them so that they don't have to spend the rubles.

 

Cheers,

Thump

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Vodor
On 12/14/2019 at 6:24 PM, Spectator6 said:

And yet, here we are. With a vocal subset of the community fighting this journey tooth and nail, kicking and screaming the entire time. “REWARD ME!” they cry out as they continue to mindlessly play the game. “I shouldn’t have to get good!” they yell as they continue to waste load-out after load-out, refusing to learn the finer aspects of doing a proper scav run, of how to avoid situations, of raising their success rate little by little.

As I always keep saying with forums and suchlike, I'd really like to see some sort of ratio between regular active players (say level 20+) vs regular forum posters. We would then get an idea of how many players are 'vocal' and a fair idea of those 'vocal' people how many moan all the time.

Considering over 500,000 people watched the 0.12 patch video thing that BSG did, thats quite a number to play with. 

I'd take an estimate that close to 10-15% of players actually moan, if it's that small then I don't think we should listen to them much either. Yeah I'll get burn't for that comment I'm sure.

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DFA_Thump
1 hour ago, Vodor said:

As I always keep saying with forums and suchlike, I'd really like to see some sort of ratio between regular active players (say level 20+) vs regular forum posters. We would then get an idea of how many players are 'vocal' and a fair idea of those 'vocal' people how many moan all the time.

Considering over 500,000 people watched the 0.12 patch video thing that BSG did, thats quite a number to play with. 

I'd take an estimate that close to 10-15% of players actually moan, if it's that small then I don't think we should listen to them much either. Yeah I'll get burn't for that comment I'm sure.

To deny any legitimacy of a valid opinion expressed by a "minority" member could prevent the game from getting better depending on what the feedback was and solution to a perceived problem could be.  Otherwise you're just looking at a pointless echo chamber full of sycophants and oppression by the (current) majority.  And of those 500,000 how many actually play regularly, are at some arbitrarily derived required level to have their opinions considered, and agree/disagree with the opinions brought on by "the vocal minority?"  BSG doesn't have to "give in" to a person who is unhappy that they were killed in a raid, but if there's a valid reason for their complaint (i.e. lag, hit detection, invisible walls, etc.) then why ignore their complaint because they are at level 9 in this version of the wipe.   

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Yeavo
16 hours ago, DFA_Thump said:

To deny any legitimacy of a valid opinion expressed by a "minority" member could prevent the game from getting better depending on what the feedback was and solution to a perceived problem could be.

Nothing new under the sun. Even if it turns out majority are of the opposing opinion then that will no longer be a good metric to measure how this game should be. We all do this and see it our everyday lives even outside games, public discourse and politics for example.

This is why I personally rarely try to take the "moral" high ground of "popular opinion" and instead try to argue about game design with my admittedly limited hobbyist knowledge of *roll the drums* game design. Popular opinion -argument has tendency to blow up in your face.

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traumacode

Stupid post and largely irrelevant to most people's concerns about this game.

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ZaNY_v2
On 12/14/2019 at 10:20 PM, CrackHDown said:

I have no idea what you just said. Im convinced you just started typing with no real idea either

found the hatchling

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Spectator6
On 12/21/2019 at 10:01 AM, Hamm said:

another dumb topic lmao.

Take your negative trolling somewhere else @Hamm!

*tosses an autographed photo your way* 

On 12/21/2019 at 5:09 PM, traumacode said:

Stupid post and largely irrelevant to most people's concerns about this game.

Show me where the big bad post hurt you @traumacode

 

Edited by Spectator6

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Spectator6
29 minutes ago, ZaNY_v2 said:

found the hatchling

And just when you start closing in on his position... *poof* He disconnects in a puff of smoke

On 12/21/2019 at 6:38 AM, Yeavo said:

This is why I personally rarely try to take the "moral" high ground of "popular opinion" and instead try to argue about game design with my admittedly limited hobbyist knowledge of *roll the drums* game design. Popular opinion -argument has tendency to blow up in your face.

Well said @Yeavo!

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traumacode
1 minute ago, Spectator6 said:

Take your negative trolling somewhere else @Hamm!

*tosses an autographed photo your way* 

Show me where the big bad post hurt you @traumacode

 

 

It didn't hurt me - you are the one that made the wall of text to begin with.  I am personally immensely enjoying this game and it's difficult learning curve. The fact that you made this post means that you have been negatively affected by the way other people are enjoying the game which again - is irrelevant.  People will play this game as they like no matter what you post.  All that matters is that you enjoy the game the way you like and other people enjoy the game as they like.

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Spectator6
1 minute ago, traumacode said:

 

It didn't hurt me - you are the one that made the wall of text to begin with.  I am personally immensely enjoying this game and it's difficult learning curve. The fact that you made this post means that you have been negatively affected by the way other people are enjoying the game which again - is irrelevant.  People will play this game as they like no matter what you post.  All that matters is that you enjoy the game the way you like and other people enjoy the game as they like.

So if I play PUBG, I should be able to avoid taking damage outside of the ring? Y'know, because I should be able to "play however I want"?

The FACT IS the playerbase is exploiting the secure container in ways the developers never envisioned or intended. Extracting is an essential element to the Raid game mode. 

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traumacode
Just now, Spectator6 said:

So if I play PUBG, I should be able to avoid taking damage outside of the ring? Y'know, because I should be able to "play however I want"?

The FACT IS the playerbase is exploiting the secure container in ways the developers never envisioned or intended. Extracting is an essential element to the Raid game mode. 

While I agree with you, people are going to continue to do it until the developers fix it.  The best you can do is try to beat people to those high priority loot spots or murder them before they can disconnect.  In the end, there's plenty of ways to make money and the economy is not really affected by hatchet runners in the end.

 

I have not let people exploiting a game ever ruin my experience.  People trying to ruin games is not new to a competitive multiplayer and it will not go away anytime soon.

 

BTW, if someone is outside of the ring in PUBG, just shoot them and move on.  Easy target as far as I am concerned.  Do you also complain when people in Tarkov camp extract points for 40 minutes?  I would imagine not.  Some people would.  Again, my answer to you is shoot those people - they are easy targets when they aren't moving and you know where to look.

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Spectator6
Just now, traumacode said:

the economy is not really affected by hatchet runners in the end.

And how do you know this? Please show me your evidence for how players making inordinate amounts of money risk-free does *NOT* affect the gameplay loop at all. 

2 minutes ago, traumacode said:

I have not let people exploiting a game ever ruin my experience.

Where did I say it's ruining my experience? 

Like you, I love the game and have a blast with it. But that does not mean certain things should not be improved and refined further.

3 minutes ago, traumacode said:

BTW, if someone is outside of the ring in PUBG, just shoot them and move on.

Seems you're missing my point... If a subset of players in PUBG learned how to regularly exploit the ring by NOT taking any damage, would that pose a problem to PUBG's game mode? 

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