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laynei

add female options

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Yukari_Akiyama

Not gonna happen. Don’t see too many females in Wagner Group or Academi. Tarkov is going for realistic, not woke nonsense.

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kebman

Female characters aren't "woke". Most western armies have female conscription these days, for instance Israel and the Scandinavian countries. Granted, there are fewer women that like to play these kinds of games, but they do exist. I know so, because I've played with some of them. 

I do however get the economical point of view. In short, by only having male characters, you're saved from doubling up female animations and models for the entire line of equipment in the game, which is already quite huge. Time is money, and considering the rather small demographic for female PMC's, I can understand BS' decision.

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DrBloom

I am no designer or modelling expert but I assume a female model would require all equipment to also be scaled/resized etc to fit a female model, while this is of course possible, would it not be easier to do this at the end once everything is in (or the majority of it) so they don't waste excess time adding in a second model for every item you can equip?

Edited by DrBloom
Bad Spelling :(

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OneTrueLizardo

Not this crap again... We've been over this a hundred times already.

TL;DR waste of resources, not happening in any foreseeable future. 

Edited by OneTrueLizardo

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Yukari_Akiyama
3 hours ago, kebman said:

Female characters aren't "woke". Most western armies have female conscription these days, for instance Israel and the Scandinavian countries. Granted, there are fewer women that like to play these kinds of games, but they do exist. I know so, because I've played with some of them. 

I do however get the economical point of view. In short, by only having male characters, you're saved from doubling up female animations and models for the entire line of equipment in the game, which is already quite huge. Time is money, and considering the rather small demographic for female PMC's, I can understand BS' decision.

PMCs aren’t conscripts. You aren’t playing as Israel or Scandinavian military. Also women don’t need to play as women to enjoy a game. I never understood why people attempt to use this as an argument for Gender Representation in games. I can play Tomb Raider With a female character. I played Dino Crisis and Reaident Evil with Female protagonists and Enjoyed them.

I could see an argument for female scavs, but in reality they should look like homeless bag ladies and not super models or gender studies majors from University of San Fransisco. 

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kebman
10 hours ago, Yukari_Akiyama said:

PMCs aren’t conscripts. You aren’t playing as Israel or Scandinavian military.

Sorry, Yukari_Akiyama, but that argument doesn't really make much sense. For instance there are examples of female resistance fighters (akin to PMC's) all over the world. Sure, they're in a clear minority, but they do exist. A notable example would be the all-female Yazidi militia—the Êzîdxan Women's Units—who fought ISIS in the Kurdish regions.

But you're right. Enjoyment of this game isn't dependent on having female characters ... for most players ... including female ones. However having female characters would open up a slew of new options for many players, not least those who like to role-play. 

However, as said before, the main reason why there aren't female characters isn't political, but rather economic. First of all, becuase the demography of the group of potential buyers who would get a greatly enhanced enjoyment of this game because of female characters is extremely small. Second, because the developers of this game don't have the resources and financial backing of an A-list game company to go ahead and pander to this extremely small group of potential buyers.

Personally I'd love more supermodels in this game thoooo............... ❤️

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p4nnus
On 12/15/2019 at 3:09 AM, laynei said:

let me pick a boy or girl please

No. Time and time again this is being suggested and requested, every time I see it I come to tell you 2 things:

1) Read the rules and follow them, this is the 1234234234278th duplicate of the same subject. Posting duplicates is against the rules. Use the search function before posting.

2) Female operators will never happen in EFT, it has been confirmed a million times by BSG. They just said it AGAIN in the latest ruski podcast. ITS NOT GONNA HAPPEN!

On 12/16/2019 at 9:01 AM, kebman said:

Female characters aren't "woke". Most western armies have female conscription these days, for instance Israel and the Scandinavian countries. Granted, there are fewer women that like to play these kinds of games, but they do exist. I know so, because I've played with some of them. 

I do however get the economical point of view. In short, by only having male characters, you're saved from doubling up female animations and models for the entire line of equipment in the game, which is already quite huge. Time is money, and considering the rather small demographic for female PMC's, I can understand BS' decision.

This is neither a sound argument. Its not just the economical POV. We are playing as PMCs in a militarized zone. Women in PMCs are not really a thing IRL, not as common that the implementation of such feature would be reasonable or realistic. There are some for sure, but they are very rare. Even in the countries with female conscriptions, except for maybe Israel, women are really rare. Also, PMCs usually consist of ex-soldiers that have been in active frontline duty and women are even rarer in these positions/units, even in militaries that have a reasonable percentage of female soldiers. 

Ive served in FDF and we have an increasing number of female conscripts and I think its partially a good thing. They just dont, pretty much ever, serve in the frontline duties. Comms,(non-frontline) medics and so on. There are several reasons for this and you can go use the search function to see the big female operator thread, I made lengthy posts about this there like a year or sth ago. 

16 hours ago, kebman said:

Sorry, Yukari_Akiyama, but that argument doesn't really make much sense. For instance there are examples of female resistance fighters (akin to PMC's) all over the world. Sure, they're in a clear minority, but they do exist. A notable example would be the all-female Yazidi militia—the Êzîdxan Women's Units—who fought ISIS in the Kurdish regions.

But you're right. Enjoyment of this game isn't dependent on having female characters ... for most players ... including female ones. However having female characters would open up a slew of new options for many players, not least those who like to role-play. 

However, as said before, the main reason why there aren't female characters isn't political, but rather economic. First of all, becuase the demography of the group of potential buyers who would get a greatly enhanced enjoyment of this game because of female characters is extremely small. Second, because the developers of this game don't have the resources and financial backing of an A-list game company to go ahead and pander to this extremely small group of potential buyers.

Personally I'd love more supermodels in this game thoooo............... ❤️

Resistance fighters and PMCs are very different. Can you point out any sources that indicate female PMCs serving in combat roles, in any IRL PMC? I tried to search, but didnt find anything. We had a dude talk about PMCs in our uni, he had studied them and he kept a lecture about proxy wars and PMCs. I didnt attend as it wasnt my course, but I asked a friend to deliver my question of female PMC operators. The dude answered that he never heard or saw any females in PMCs, tho they might exist in very small numbers (again probably not combat roles as nothing indicates that).

Edited by p4nnus
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Yukari_Akiyama
1 hour ago, p4nnus said:

Resistance fighters and PMCs are very different. Can you point out any sources that indicate female PMCs serving in combat roles, in any IRL PMC? 

Seriously, I don’t see how you can call a militia “kind of” or “akin to” a PMC. One is a volunteer force that has very loose recruitment standards and organization and the other is a private military with a  recruitment procedure stricter than the military and paid employment. Most PMCs only pick former SOF and as we all know women aren’t quite common in that arena. 

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Plasterninja
28 minutes ago, Yukari_Akiyama said:

Most PMCs only pick former SOF and as we all know women aren’t quite common in that arena. 

Thats bullshit. I know quite a few that work as military contractors, and NONE of them are former SOF. Blackwater, do you think that the thousands upon thousands of contractors they have are former SOF? No! Most of them are either civilians or army washouts that couldn't cut it. ANYONE can pay a few thousand dollars and take the courses. Hell I've even gotten job offers, just because I have combat experience as a medic.

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Yukari_Akiyama
Just now, Plasterninja said:

Thats bullshit. I know quite a few that work as military contractors, and NONE of them are former SOF. Blackwater, do you think that the thousands upon thousands of contractors they have are former SOF? No! Most of them are either civilians or army washouts that couldn't cut it. ANYONE can pay a few thousand dollars and take the courses. Hell I've even gotten job offers, just because I have combat experience as a medic.

I know on Academi’s website they include a broad list of MOS’s they are interested in but in this timeframe the only people that seem to actuall get call backs are former SOF or people with rare qualifications like TACP or marine FAST. I know for damn sure they aren’t going to pick someone who washed out of basic training over a someone who got out the military with a SoF cert and looking for work. I have a lot of buddies who got out of the military assuming they can just get picked up by Triple Canopy who find themselves without a job. Then you have people who call themselves “PMCs” but instead of conducting personal security detail or doing anything interesting they are guarding a port in Kuwait or Saudi Arabia making less than a DoD security guard. How long ago were you contacted? I know back in the OIF/OEF PMCs were hiring left and right but the tempo really seems low in the past few years.  

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opiat3

Ppl keep flooding the forum with requests for the game that make no sense... then they make some more posts complaining that development is too slow... go figure!!

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kebman
1 hour ago, Yukari_Akiyama said:

Seriously, I don’t see how you can call a militia “kind of” or “akin to” a PMC. One is a volunteer force that has very loose recruitment standards and organization and the other is a private military with a  recruitment procedure stricter than the military and paid employment. Most PMCs only pick former SOF and as we all know women aren’t quite common in that arena. 

Wow, are we really discussing this lol? Who gives a poopl! Some peeps want female characters. An argument for it is that female soldiers, resistance fighters, and PMC's exist in real life, though obviously only as clear minorities. That's a fact! Read up on Karl Popper if you want a thorough explanation on that line of reasoning (black swans and such). But as explained earlier, it's still not enough to justify female characters in-game. For that, it has to be economically viable, and under the current conditions it just isn't. Hell, some peeps might even want transgendered PMC's for all I care, or attack helicopters, or dragons. But that's not gonna happen anytime soon, so that point rather is moot. :D 

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Scionti
On 12/16/2019 at 4:02 AM, Yukari_Akiyama said:

I could see an argument for female scavs, but in reality they should look like homeless bag ladies and not super models or gender studies majors from University of San Fransisco. 

I got ass blasted for making this suggestion in another thread. People here are so afraid of "woke" influences that they over react if you even spitball the idea.

 

On 12/17/2019 at 8:44 AM, Yukari_Akiyama said:

Seriously, I don’t see how you can call a militia “kind of” or “akin to” a PMC. One is a volunteer force that has very loose recruitment standards and organization and the other is a private military with a  recruitment procedure stricter than the military and paid employment. Most PMCs only pick former SOF and as we all know women aren’t quite common in that arena. 

Dude you're arguing with is a straight Goober. Seriously, don't waste your breath.

On 12/17/2019 at 9:16 AM, Plasterninja said:

Thats bullshit. I know quite a few that work as military contractors, and NONE of them are former SOF. Blackwater, do you think that the thousands upon thousands of contractors they have are former SOF? No! Most of them are either civilians or army washouts that couldn't cut it. ANYONE can pay a few thousand dollars and take the courses. Hell I've even gotten job offers, just because I have combat experience as a medic.

I know some PMC companies will hire former SWAT officers. They usually want "high level" tactical experience from what I researched.  (Quotes are for the SWAT officers they hire, because kicking in doors on meth heads doesnt mean youre going to be effective in fighting Al quada on their home turf...Wasn't Yeager a SWAT officer before he became a PMC with all the controversy in regards to getting his buddies killed?)

Basic grunts aren't gonna cut it. Pilots and Medics seemed to be the "exception" because they were in high demand. This was back around 2009 though that I did this research, I'm sure it has changed.

But military contractor =/= PMC.

Edited by Scionti
more quotes.

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Scionti
On 12/17/2019 at 10:33 AM, kebman said:

Hell, some peeps might even want transgendered PMC's for all I care, or attack helicopters, or dragons. But that's not gonna happen anytime soon, so that point rather is moot. :D 

Arguing in extremes is a fallacy, you know that right?

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Maxson_

JESUS, how often do we have to discuss this....

The Community have made it clear they dont want it, weeks ago, months ago, a year ago, and so on.
As i said before im against it, not only for the lack of females in those PMC's even if there is some but that wouldnt be a good point cause everybody here should know their numbers are low.

And also, the devs wouldnt have to model everything twice. we want faster updates and equipment in the game, dont we?

 

Personally: Im against it but it wouldnt drive me all too crazy if they decide to do so. but one thing, if they ever consider doing so, i dont want slim and skinny Females. for numerous reasons.

Edited by Maxson_

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kebman
2 hours ago, Scionti said:

Arguing in extremes is a fallacy, you know that right?

If that's where you want to take this, anything can be a fallacy, pal. It's just an example. Get over it.

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GeneralBrus

I dont understand all the hate here, guys that is just an idea.

However i think BSG is wise not to add this to the game.

Even if BSG had the time to add females, i would say that this would destroy the immersion. 

90%+ of the playerbase is male, adding this could end up in female characters being everywhere, which would be less realistic then having 1 in a 100 female.

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Hvrskv

My two very stretched-out cents on the issue:

Spoiler

Men are inherently better at fighting, and this fact of nature has nothing to do with culture or woman-hating or anything of the sort. It has everything to do with evolution, which is an immaterial thing. Evolution has no agenda, no brain, no emotions. Men aren't objectively "better" per se; they have simply adapted to nature in a different way. In the case of men and women, men typically have superior physical capabilities.

This fact has been taken into consideration by organizations which employ fighters, such as military organizations. It's not an arbitrary decision that some of those organizations have lowered physical requirements for women. Why they'd want to employ an inferior fighting force is up to each individual organization, their goals, open positions and their ethical landscapes. There are certainly roles in such organizations for individuals who are less physically capable, and women are very prominent in these roles, much moreso than roles which require high physical ability. Strong women do exist (I have seen them), and some of them can be stronger than some men. It's not impossible to find a woman in the latter roles, just as it's not impossible to find barley in a wheat field. It just isn't very probable.

A few years back in my country's main defence organization some 600 people applied for peacekeeper/crisis management training, but not a single woman passed the fitness tests. Not long after, it was proposed that the tests be made easier for women. Now, imagine a private security company knew about these numbers. Based on that, would they hire men, women, or whoever passes the test?

That's the real world. Art is... subjective, however. Women are not underrepresented in fighting-related art. I'd say that in some cases they are even overrepresented. That's not necessarily a bad thing, because art does not have to be 1:1 with the real world. Art is a tool for exploring ideas without having to act them out in the real world. Some (many, in fact) art creators create parallels between their art and the real world. As creators, it is entirely up to BSG which fantasies and fabrications they want to include in their game, and which bits are to be in line with reality as much as possible.

I believe most of us are familiar with BSG's design philosophy for EFT. To butcher a quote: "the game is to be as close to reality as possible while still being enjoyable as a game". We should all know that real fighting is not fun. There are all kinds of inconveniences involved, thus, we have an excuse to escape into a virtual environment where we can experience fighting that is close to reality, yet enjoyable.

You may be thinking to yourself: "How would it make the game (EFT) a lesser experience if there were female characters in it?". The answer is... another question: "How far are we willing to go with the suspension of disbelief?". I know there are different kinds of triggers for different people; for example someone might get triggered when they see an object in the game that is not capable of behaving in a certain way because of technological limitations. Now you may ask: "How is that more believable than female characters?", and I will answer: they are equally unbelievable. For example's sake, I don't think it's plausible that a person can get shot in the leg 10 times and still be able to run like nothing ever happened. However, I can rationalize that.

Yes. I can rationalize the super-human healing abilities. I can point to a design limitation or a technological limitation and say that it makes sense to be limited in this way, because if healing was completely real-like in EFT, it would contradict the design philosophy. In other words, the game would no longer be enjoyable. However, when it comes to female characters in EFT, I have no such proverbial ace in the hole. There's no gimmicky technicality to which to assign blame. There's no reason from a design standpoint why the battlefields of Tarkov should be swarming with female combatants. Similarly, there is no reason why there should be dragons flying on the sky, breathing fire at scavs, or why Prapor should be selling plasma ammunition for weaponry of extraterrestrial origin. All those things sound like they would be nice additions to A game, per se. However, the only way to rationalize adding those things to EFT specifically would be to change the game world fundamentally, in such a way that they make sense in that setting. How it currently is, I don't see it happening.

I have nothing against females in games or art. I might even say that I like female fighters. I liked the movie Alien (1979), which had a female protagonist who was also a fighter (albeit not of her own volition). Oh, and it had aliens that don't exist in real life. They were cool as well.

Yes, females can be great in games and movies. But... I would much prefer that they were plausible.

 

 

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Arkann
Posted (edited)
On 12/16/2019 at 1:01 AM, kebman said:

Female characters aren't "woke". Most western armies have female conscription these days, for instance Israel and the Scandinavian countries. Granted, there are fewer women that like to play these kinds of games, but they do exist. I know so, because I've played with some of them. 

I do however get the economical point of view. In short, by only having male characters, you're saved from doubling up female animations and models for the entire line of equipment in the game, which is already quite huge. Time is money, and considering the rather small demographic for female PMC's, I can understand BS' decision.

It is woke. If we were talking about female soldiers... thats different. But we aren't. We're talking about PMC's. We are talking about a world riddled with combat. Females don't tend to frequent these zones at all, let alone sign up for front-line combat in PMC's. Not to mention them not even being able to make it through the heightened physical standards. I suggest you do some research and find out just how small of a percentage females have in PMC's. Not logistics... but as combatants. 

Edited by Teeky
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Arkann
On 12/17/2019 at 10:16 AM, Plasterninja said:

Thats bullshit. I know quite a few that work as military contractors, and NONE of them are former SOF. Blackwater, do you think that the thousands upon thousands of contractors they have are former SOF? No! Most of them are either civilians or army washouts that couldn't cut it. ANYONE can pay a few thousand dollars and take the courses. Hell I've even gotten job offers, just because I have combat experience as a medic.

Regardless... you still wont find many females there, seeing as most females can barely pass the lowered Army physical requirements.

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masaii46

What !? Very bad Idea '-'

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afgan_
Posted (edited)

I really don't understand the hate for the idea. For me lack of female operators is completely not an issue and game works as it is, however from other perspective it makes game less realistic. There is absolutely no reason to argue that females gets involved in wars especially in modern "asymmetric/hybrid" conflicts. So should we have female operators - absolutely and it would make game more realistic.

I think I have noticed this when I watched few female streamers and it just popped in my head as - "ohh yeah actually there are no female option". I don't think this discourages anyone from playing and I don't think whole "woke" argument should me mentioned here, it is not what suggestion is about. I think suggestion is about reality and large city without any females looking slightly weird.

Now finally in terms of how big this issue is and what priority it should be.. it feels to me like this is "least priority and smallest issue it could be". If we start listing issues we currently have in the game this would not make into top 10000 of the issues. So my view - at some point, maybe even after the game is finalised this would be nice addition, but for now it could be shelved. That said I think we should not attack idea itself (it is reasonable idea), but we can agree that it is not priority right now.

Edited by afgan_

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