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Flea Market Bots Countermeasure

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-Rage-

Hello BSG Dev-Team,

I looked into the src code of an Flea Market Bot and I have to tell, you have and will have difficulties to distinguish between real player and bots trading on the fleamarket.
As mentioned in another post you can try to build in as first layer something like Googles reCaptcha v3 and/or build some bot/real player rating in the backend according to the typical human (behaviour) requests. But in my experience its only a question of time until they imitate that as well.

So whats the solution?

I would take it one step further. Second layer. What distinguishes a bot from a real player?
Bots are not playing the game at all. 

  1. Every player gets a max transaction amount PER category in the Flea Market, for the sake of simplicity lets say 15 for each category.
    You can still  fine tune for each category later if necessary.
  2. One "transaction" means not one item it means for example buying one time "200 bullets of 5.45x39 BS" and hit the purchase button.
    Only buying from the Flea Market reduces the transaction amount not selling.
  3. That transaction amount (15) per category is reset to the full 15 after each raid again.
  4. Now this is important as well: its not reset if you disconnect or kill yourself (accidentally or not I am sorry ;)) to prevent again scripts from joining a raid and exiting it "quickly" again.
    It only resets if you are killed survive or have finished the round with a run through.

Thats the only protection I can see to tremendously reduce the bot trading also in the future.
It can be implemented faster then the first protection layer + its more reliable!

I hope you consider that as a solution and I am interested what other think about it.

For me its "the Solution"! ;)

 

Greetings

Rage

 

 

 

Edited by -Rage-
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Obeimi

Looks like a nice idea, it will slow down the market but at least it should keep the bot out, it still doesn't address the market manipulation made by some super rich players, everytime I try to buy some items from the vendor they are out of stock, I go in the flea market and the items it's 500% more expensive. It's ok for a person with a lot of money, but for a newbie player it really kills is game.

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NazT_DragN
On 1/25/2020 at 8:38 AM, -Rage- said:

I would take it one step further. Second layer. What distinguishes a bot from a real player?
Bots are not playing the game at all. 

  1. Every player gets a max transaction amount PER category in the Flea Market, for the sake of simplicity lets say 15 for each category.
    You can still  fine tune for each category later if necessary.
  2. One "transaction" means not one item it means for example buying one time "200 bullets of 5.45x39 BS" and hit the purchase button.
    Only buying from the Flea Market reduces the transaction amount not selling.
  3. That transaction amount (15) per category is reset to the full 15 after each raid again.

I get where you're going and I have to say I am intrigued. What I'm wondering is, this is the (most likely) tactic being used, so wouldn't it also help explain why there are listings from players with insanely high trader ratings?

The combination of the transaction amount being reset by raid participation, paired with the fact that the actual number of transactions themselves is based on Trader Rank and increased Rep Points (the number and up arrow or red down arrow under everyone's name, for those that don't know).

It would explain the insanely high TR numbers (a few over 1000). Bots could be being set up to purchase everything under a specific set price, and then sell the mass for either:

  1. High markup (for cash building), or
  2. Dirt cheap as in example below* (for Rep boosting to unlock more trades)

*Keep an eye on the Monstrum Compact Prism Scope 2x32

*Screenshots taken top->bottom to preserve price congruency.

Spoiler

731046858_2020-01-2705-11(0).thumb.png.dc5663d9df372890cdbf90a72afa0bbc.png802939751_2020-01-2705-12(0).thumb.png.664f87402459fe87d52c29d0ebcb589c.png134994242_2020-01-2705-12(1).thumb.png.da84a2ec831ab3e4de299ca3d44b6168.png406185744_2020-01-2705-12(2).thumb.png.6d81a08e318f2849d8ef8fc29b1f96c2.png1323072879_2020-01-2705-12(3).thumb.png.a6c7359c195756becbc0448f9d053514.png

Sold by Jaeger for 30k and change. Flash bought1 and sold as singles for as low as 18k to guarantee sales.

1I call it Flash Bought because no matter how low the price gets in this situation, it's instantly bought at a speed way higher than an average human can produce.

I can press the 'Y' key at anywhere from 13/sec to 17/sec (timed), depending on how I'm feeling at any given time. Not for long stretches, but for things like trying to get a weapon part or something that normally sells for cheap from a Trader, but have an LL requirement higher than I am.

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YippadeePtato
On 1/25/2020 at 1:38 PM, -Rage- said:

 

  1. Every player gets a max transaction amount PER category in the Flea Market, for the sake of simplicity lets say 15 for each category.
    You can still  fine tune for each category later if necessary.
  2. One "transaction" means not one item it means for example buying one time "200 bullets of 5.45x39 BS" and hit the purchase button.
    Only buying from the Flea Market reduces the transaction amount not selling.
  3. That transaction amount (15) per category is reset to the full 15 after each raid again.
  4. Now this is important as well: its not reset if you disconnect or kill yourself (accidentally or not I am sorry ;)) to prevent again scripts from joining a raid and exiting it "quickly" again.
    It only resets if you are killed survive or have finished the round with a run through.

Thats the only protection I can see to tremendously reduce the bot trading also in the future.
It can be implemented faster then the first protection layer + its more reliable!

I hope you consider that as a solution and I am interested what other think about it.

For me its "the Solution"! ;)

 

 

 

1. Wouldn't work for a number of reasons. A big issue with this is the error purchasing when selecting to buy all and someone has a faster finger and bought some already, this means you need to re-input your buy order. For faster traded items, you have to buy them 1 at a time if you want even a chance of getting the item. This would also cripple trading on the fleamarket for profits. 

2. I addressed this in 1. 

3. This is forcing people to play the game the way you would. If people can't make profit trading, it will increase the number of hatchet/pistol only runners. Which the devs want to stop. This doesn't fix the issue, it only serves to super charge other issues and remove an element of the game. 

4. This is a bit much. 

 

I am sorry, but It's my opinion that this is not the best solution. It actually feels more like a punishment to traders, as this solution doesn't cater to people who use the market, it actually caters more to people who hardly use the market to buy very specific items.  The raids would just be factory, hatchet, stash in container and get scav killed.  The only thing that would stay consistent is limited items would still be massively overpriced as people would focus on trading them. 

 

It's mainly player traders that target single items and constantly refresh. This wouldn't affect bots at all. They don't use the GUI, so while players trade single items exclusively, bots are able to buy everything that comes in at a low price without the need to specify a category. They are not limited to a single item or category.  This change would really only limit players ability to combat bots even more, because we would be going into raids while they would just continue to snipe other stuff at low prices. Times that by hundreds or thousands and it doesn't really affect bots, they will still just snipe low prices and enter a raid every 5-6 hours to refresh.  

 

IMO a solution would stop the bots earning money, not the player base. 

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Obeimi

EVE online had the same problem with market bot, they start analyzing stuff and now market bot are almost non existant, unless you use a custom market bot and even there you risk A LOT by using it, if they catch you with a market bot they will ban all accounts related to your hardware and ip. permanently banned. They do ban ppl a lot and they do keep a very close eyes on market transaction etc. they have a team checking that periodically, because EVE has the same idea of economy driven only by players and market bot destroy that completely.

 

I don't know how to solve the problem , but sure as hell they should ask for help, because their job atm is not enough, it's not getting better at all.

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NazT_DragN
19 hours ago, YippadeePtato said:

For faster traded items, you have to buy them 1 at a time if you want even a chance of getting the item. This would also cripple trading on the fleamarket for profits. 

This is already what is going on. The speed of the transactions ensures that a human player is forced to try and spam for each individual item instead of being able to use the handy "All" button that the devs added for a reason.

As far as crippling trading in the FM for profits in general..... That's a slippery slope to try and navigate because "Profit" is all relative. It could mean that you are satisfied from making an increased return for each item sold, or it could be the greed (you'll see me say this a lot because this is the driving factor) of humans to amass as much as possible. (There's no in-game need for some sums as high as 50Mil+)

Spoiler

 

*Copied from Wiki*

Each player has a reputation value which affects their number of offers and the view other players have upon their offers.

Reputation is gained upon successfully completing deals, every ₽100,000 gained from deals incrementing the players' reputation.

Reputation is lost whenever an offer is not fulfilled, removals included.

Offer slots are increased upon reaching a certain reputation value and decreased upon dropping below it. All offer slot increase thresholds can be seen in the following table:

Reputation               Number of offers

From/To

  • -∞ / -2               1
  • -2  /  0.2            2
  • 0.2 / 10             3
  • 10 / 30              4
  • 30 / 50              5
  • 50 / 70              7
  • 70 / 100           10
  • 100 / 150         15
  • 150 / 250         20
  • 250 / 500         30
  • 500 / 750         50
  • 750 / 1000       75
  • 1000 / +∞        100

 

 

19 hours ago, YippadeePtato said:

It actually feels more like a punishment to traders, as this solution doesn't cater to people who use the market, it actually caters more to people who hardly use the market to buy very specific items.

'Hardly' is irrelevant. Using the market to buy specific items is precisely what the market is for. To allow players that have obtained items in-raid, excess items no longer needed, or items bought through higher LL tiers. (Also now incl. crafted in Hideout) To sell and make available for players that haven't gotten as far and/or those that have a lesser amount of time available to play the game long enough to grind these things themselves.

19 hours ago, YippadeePtato said:

IMO a solution would stop the bots earning money, not the player base.

Exactly... But what would you suggest BSG use to discover, for a certainty, which account is player and which is bot? THAT is the actual problem.

The table above explains about how Trade rep is gained, and what unlocks at each level. Not about how fast or slow increasing that rank is limited to...all it says is Per 100,000Ru, and doesn't even say at what increment of change occurs. 0.3 per 100,000, 0.1 per 100,000? I know it's less than 0.40 or so, because my rank is only 0.71-ish from starting at 0.20, and I've cycled close to a few Mil through the FM just from loadout and occasional Quest item purchases, as well as sales from the Twitch drop event items.

A lot of what I've seen, are some players 'averaging' around the 125-140 mark (Time consuming? Sure. But still within the realm of humanly possible). There are some accounts that I've even seen (and if I see again I'll make sure to SS it because there's only been a few), that are up to the 1000Rep. point and then some.

It's been what? 5 weeks maybe from the last wipe? Who has the time and more importantly, who has the human patience and/or speed to go through grinding rep that high Manually?

The idea of trader stock limits is working a bit, but it has gotten to the point now that it's backfiring, because even the Traders are "Out of Stock" on most worthwhile items. A lot of times without some players even having the chance to get their own individual purchase limit.

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YippadeePtato
3 hours ago, NazT_DragN said:

This is already what is going on. The speed of the transactions ensures that a human player is forced to try and spam for each individual item instead of being able to use the handy "All" button that the devs added for a reason.

You haven't clearly understood my post or the one before it.

Clicking then spamming Y to get an item for a certain is what you do now, yes. You do not select all, as someone would've bought some and then you have to start the process all over again, possibly missing your trade and costing you more money. This solution punishes you for doing exactly that. This solution doesn't combat the bots, only players. The reason I say it isn't a solution for players who use the market frequently is because it doesn't even consider this aspect. 

 

4 hours ago, NazT_DragN said:

As far as crippling trading in the FM for profits in general..... That's a slippery slope to try and navigate because "Profit" is all relative. It could mean that you are satisfied from making an increased return for each item sold, or it could be the greed (you'll see me say this a lot because this is the driving factor) of humans to amass as much as possible. (There's no in-game need for some sums as high as 50Mil+)

That is where you are wrong. If you want a full labs kit + keycards, you need around 40m, then 180k per entry into labs and possibly 500k-600k for a loadout. Someone did the maths and a level 3 bitcoin farm, maxed out requires around 30m investment, that isn't including other upgrades. Stash upgrade alone costs 27m+. T H I C C case is 15M.  I bought a gamma container for 3.4/3.6m from fence.

 

Then there is the added cost of playing with my friends, because 90% of raids to involve you losing a gear set at 150k a time and the only reason for the 10% survival rate is because you are rocking 90k worth of armour. 

 

There is a huge in-game need for money.  If you added up the cost of the fully upgraded hideout by itself, it would probably be around 70m+. 

 

 

4 hours ago, NazT_DragN said:

'Hardly' is irrelevant. Using the market to buy specific items is precisely what the market is for. To allow players that have obtained items in-raid, excess items no longer needed, or items bought through higher LL tiers. (Also now incl. crafted in Hideout) To sell and make available for players that haven't gotten as far and/or those that have a lesser amount of time available to play the game long enough to grind these things themselves.

I am saying this caters only to people who do not use the market frequently and punishes those who do use the market frequently, while again not combating bots in the slightest. It's the same as me saying to combat hackers, Tarkov does not need guns and we should do hatchet runs only, or it doesn't need melee, buy guns. Neither is fair for either side and does nothing to combat hackers. It's the same reason you don't get one of your legs put in a cast when you break your arm, it doesn't solve your broken arm, it only isolates one of your legs. 

I think you have more issue with people making money from the market, but this is how markets work in every game and in real life. on the market, good traders make money. In raids, good players make money. 

It's a game revolving around money. 

 

4 hours ago, NazT_DragN said:

Exactly... But what would you suggest BSG use to discover, for a certainty, which account is player and which is bot? THAT is the actual problem.

I do not know. But the current change they have added (No timer) has made it easy pickings for the bots, they now win 99% of the trades they are attempting, where as before I could grab bargains 10~15% of the time. That is why prices have now inflated even more and it would be hard to find items like key-cards for less than 175k. 

I just wouldn't want to see another change added which would disadvantage players even more while not affecting players using trading bots. The best countermeasure I could think of is here 

 

4 hours ago, NazT_DragN said:

all it says is Per 100,000Ru, and doesn't even say at what increment of change occurs. 0.3 per 100,000, 0.1 per 100,000? I know it's less than 0.40 or so, because my rank is only 0.71-ish from starting at 0.20

My trader rank just passed 40, and after a bit of testing I am pretty sure it is 0.1 points for every 100k profit made trading on the market. I however do not know how the profit is calculated, but that seems about right. 

They were attempting to make the market friendly and rewarding for people who enjoyed trading, which it is, for the most part. However it doesn't discriminate and is also super friendly to bots. 

 

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-Rage-

Again I would prefer an Api solution as well as I already mentioned in your solution thread to integrated the detection of the fleamarket delay in the backend per request and account would be a start but you still have them 24/7 working.

How do you counter that?

Am 30.1.2020 um 04:12 schrieb YippadeePtato:

I am saying this caters only to people who do not use the market frequently and punishes those who do use the market frequently, while again not combating bots in the slightest.

Whats "frequently"? If you got lets be generous 50 transactions per category, pls give me an example where you need them before playing one round as Scav or Pmc?

Lets limit it to 5 transaction for keycards who the f.. needs more than 5 keycards before playing 1 round as PMC? 
I've seen player selling 100+ keycards his bot would be pretty f... if he need to play after every 5 keycards one round.

Still he can turn it on afterwards but the 24/7 for bots is over now If he is going to sleep his bot is done I would say thats a big countermeasure!

Combine this with the 4 seconds api detection in the backend for each refresh request and we are on a good way!

Zitat

EVE online had the same problem with market bot, they start analyzing stuff and now market bot are almost non existant,

That would be really interesting to know how they managed that? Any source?

Edited by -Rage-

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DaGooCh

There are many who think this is a tycoon game and not a war sim. Hatchling  runs and scripts.  Devs got a lot of work to do.

They should  should set  hard limits on prices temporarily.  With the massive increase in player base the flea market is just as broken as the NA servers in prime time.. Good bullets are snatched up in an instant and resold at insane prices. New player, you wanna kill someone? You better pay up! And being new, you are  probably going to die with them in your pockets. Or because of the server spawning someone right next you and they loaded in first. And that's on top of the ridiculously  looooong load in times. Starting  now in this game is harder.

 

 

 

Edited by DaGooCh

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DaGooCh

Maybe make stuff brought only able to be sold for the same price or for a loss. It's "used". Like new. open box LMAO

But seriously that would help.

 

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Zeerios

These flea bots are annoying. pretty sure everybody over 100 rep is a bot

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Yossic

There are real players who are above 100 rep.

You can add a delay of a few seconds after the first one clicked purchase. So that others have a chance to  "roll" on that same item and get luckily selected.

You could disallow reselling barter items

You could add a middle man check which increases the fee for ppl who are only reselling recently purchased items from the FM.
Or maybe you'll lose the reputation from our dealers,  because you act as one.

 

I think there are plenty of roleplay ways to reduce the abuse of the FM.

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Obeimi
On 1/31/2020 at 6:10 PM, -Rage- said:

Again I would prefer an Api solution as well as I already mentioned in your solution thread to integrated the detection of the fleamarket delay in the backend per request and account would be a start but you still have them 24/7 working.

How do you counter that?

Whats "frequently"? If you got lets be generous 50 transactions per category, pls give me an example where you need them before playing one round as Scav or Pmc?

Lets limit it to 5 transaction for keycards who the f.. needs more than 5 keycards before playing 1 round as PMC? 
I've seen player selling 100+ keycards his bot would be pretty f... if he need to play after every 5 keycards one round.

Still he can turn it on afterwards but the 24/7 for bots is over now If he is going to sleep his bot is done I would say thats a big countermeasure!

Combine this with the 4 seconds api detection in the backend for each refresh request and we are on a good way!

That would be really interesting to know how they managed that? Any source?

They mostly started watching transaction x seconds and comparing that to human reaction, bots were much faster, plus they were comparing number of orders managed etc.

Bot are too fast, you can clearly see them, unless you modify them to have a more normal behaviour, like a human one, then the money you make are much less, mostly they do a lot of money because they are 24h online, so time online is another way to start spotting bot etc.

 

There are way to get rid of MOST bots, the private custom one are gonna be very hard but not so many ppl have the skill to create an almost undetectable bot, so there will be only a few and it will not bother most of the playerbase.

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FREEZED

best solution is to allow selling in raid items only on flea market.

so reselling stuff goes away and only those who think to use items will buy stuff. most likely eliminates 90% of bots.

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YippadeePtato
On 1/31/2020 at 5:10 PM, -Rage- said:

Whats "frequently"? If you got lets be generous 50 transactions per category, pls give me an example where you need them before playing one round as Scav or Pmc?

Any time I want to buy over 50 items. This is how markets work, buy cheap, sell for profit. I can sometimes buy 200-300 items only to make 1~2k profit on each. 

Your solution only hurts actual players who use the market. 

On 1/31/2020 at 5:10 PM, -Rage- said:

Lets limit it to 5 transaction for keycards who the f.. needs more than 5 keycards before playing 1 round as PMC? 
I've seen player selling 100+ keycards his bot would be pretty f... if he need to play after every 5 keycards one round.

See, now it's starting to become clearer. 

Your issue is not with bots, but people who are trading on the market, buying stuff cheaper and then selling it fr profit. Because if you really wanted, you can still buy a keycard for under the price that Therapist sells them for. 

On 2/1/2020 at 9:14 PM, FREEZED said:

best solution is to allow selling in raid items only on flea market.

It's coming across to me as your issue is more that you do not have money and you do not like people making it on the fleamarket. If that is the case, remove the market and only buy and sell to traders. 

You still won't be able to afford what you want to buy, but thats life. 

 

On 1/31/2020 at 6:59 PM, DaGooCh said:

There are many who think this is a tycoon game and not a war sim. Hatchling  runs and scripts.  Devs got a lot of work to do.

Some people forget that this is a MMO shooter RPG and not call of duty. 

 

On 2/1/2020 at 3:10 PM, Yossic said:

There are real players who are above 100 rep.

You can add a delay of a few seconds after the first one clicked purchase. So that others have a chance to  "roll" on that same item and get luckily selected.

You could disallow reselling barter items

You could add a middle man check which increases the fee for ppl who are only reselling recently purchased items from the FM.
Or maybe you'll lose the reputation from our dealers,  because you act as one.

 

I think there are plenty of roleplay ways to reduce the abuse of the FM.

All of this would only hurt players. Bots dont care about trader rep or delays. The people who it would hurt is the person trying to buy 20 wires for his hideout, but has to spend 3 minutes buying them and taking what he can get price-wise. 

 

On 2/1/2020 at 9:14 PM, FREEZED said:

best solution is to allow selling in raid items only on flea market.

so reselling stuff goes away and only those who think to use items will buy stuff. most likely eliminates 90% of bots.

Might as well just get rid of the fleamarket in that case and just make it trader only. If there is not going to be a real player driven economy, there is no need for the fleamarket. Just have an NPC market. That removes 100% of bots and requires much less work to implement. 

 

On 2/1/2020 at 8:52 PM, Obeimi said:

They mostly started watching transaction x seconds and comparing that to human reaction, bots were much faster, plus they were comparing number of orders managed etc.

Bot are too fast, you can clearly see them, unless you modify them to have a more normal behaviour, like a human one, then the money you make are much less, mostly they do a lot of money because they are 24h online, so time online is another way to start spotting bot etc.

 

There are way to get rid of MOST bots, the private custom one are gonna be very hard but not so many ppl have the skill to create an almost undetectable bot, so there will be only a few and it will not bother most of the playerbase.

EVE online had probably one of the best markets in an MMO.

TBH this solution should be easily applicable and would only target bots. Sometimes the simple solutions are actually the best. 

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LevCH

I have been reading posts about how to handle the Flea Market and or bots for a few days now. I think there is some good ideas and some bad ideas. I will share what I responded with in the prior posts. I think it may help

Someone was suggesting the equivalent of a Soul Bound system (MMO term). My response is while a system may be needed, I think the first step would be to determine what is high tier and what is low to medium tier

Any high tier item (bullets, armor, etc) should be limited stock. Any low to medium tier item, attachment or gun part should be unlimited stock. If something is unlimited stock, there is no point in buying it then trying to re-sell it at a higher price

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YippadeePtato
3 hours ago, LevCH said:

I have been reading posts about how to handle the Flea Market and or bots for a few days now. I think there is some good ideas and some bad ideas. I will share what I responded with in the prior posts. I think it may help

Someone was suggesting the equivalent of a Soul Bound system (MMO term). My response is while a system may be needed, I think the first step would be to determine what is high tier and what is low to medium tier

Any high tier item (bullets, armor, etc) should be limited stock. Any low to medium tier item, attachment or gun part should be unlimited stock. If something is unlimited stock, there is no point in buying it then trying to re-sell it at a higher price

What you have just described is the current system in regards to attachments, guns, armour and ammo. 

Making stuff soulbound in games is to stop stuff being transferred, it doesn't apply in this case. Because if I can just die with something soul bound and it goes to another player, there goes the entire point of bound items. 

Every item in this game can be sold except quest items. Which means money runs the world, it's very realistic in that way. Every item has some value and many have uses in quests or hideout upgrades etc. So they then have inflated prices. Some players will sell these at low prices and some people will buy to resell. 

Inflated prices on certain ammo/weapons will never change, because it has limited supply and more people want the item than the supply. So with supply and demand, the price inflates due to demand. 

--

Removing it and putting in place a soul-bound system, you might as well remove the market and go traders only.  You wouldn't be able to buy those parts without the right trader level, but no one would buy them to resell on the market if there was no profit to be made, they might even incur a loss with fees. 

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Obeimi
On 2/3/2020 at 12:08 PM, YippadeePtato said:

EVE online had probably one of the best markets in an MMO.

TBH this solution should be easily applicable and would only target bots. Sometimes the simple solutions are actually the best. 

EVE online has buy order as well, but of course the market in eve online is something completely different then the market we want to achieve here, unless in the future we start having open world and not a global market but markets that are filled of different items by players in different spots. then having buy order and then transfer items (risking the items while physically transporting them from A to B) will make sense.

 

BUT if tEVE online did get rid of market bot (not 100% but on a scale that it will never bother the playerbase) and they have/had a much complex market system, of course BSG can get rid of market bot easily!
One easy fix would be giving the trader an individual restock quantity and time, so that even if someone is trying to corner the market with marketbot you can always level traders and well say duck you bot. After this initial step they just need to start watching behaviour and analyze the reaction time of everyone buying on the market and start flagging the one that are buying multiple items in an istant, NO human person can compete with a bot plus no human person is 24h online. So now you start forcing bot makers to create bot that are slower and that are not online 24h, and in tarkov is harder then in EVE online because to have multiple account you need to buy multiple istance of the game that are not cheap at all. you need to start ban hammering ppl hard as well so you start scaring them to poo, hardware ban and not just IP ban.

I believe they don't care at the moment, they are busier developing other stuff so they are neglecting the flea market, I hope in the future they will address this problem.

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LevCH

I may of not explained well enough with my prior response. So I am going to move on

As for the latest comment.. I think part of the problem is they are trying to add to many guns. If you look at the list of guns that have been confirmed, or are in development, it is a lot. The only category that needs some attention is the LMG category. The HK 416 should of been in there. I would say after that, put in the MG36 (G36), and call it a day

Focus on stuff like this flea market problem

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