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FearedSkills

Why be punished after getting killed in raid?

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FearedSkills

I'm just curious as to the logic behind punishing players after dying in raid. I would assume it was bad enough to lose everything you went in with, but now you have to waste more money to heal your player after the raid before going in again? Either that or wait an hour or so, however long it takes for your PMC to regain full health. It feels like I'm being punished again after already being punished for dying and losing all the gear.

If I could just get an explanation as to why this was introduced?

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TUALMASOK

You have to heal lost health even if you survive the raid. Same with energy and hydration.

Edited by TUALMASOK

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tobiassolem

bild.png.cdb7fd007b0a8e031011cc16b6a1bb42.png

Operative word: "Hardcore".

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robertacedane

Mainly to punish hatchling, mosling, pistoling or others that came to raid without gear and entering game nonstop without loosing anything because when they die they will have full health, hydration and energy , thats why it was implemented to make people use food, drinks and health items after raid

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FearedSkills
On 2/17/2020 at 7:50 PM, tobiassolem said:

bild.png.cdb7fd007b0a8e031011cc16b6a1bb42.png

Operative word: "Hardcore".

I'm confused. You appear to be able to read but clearly didn't comprehend my question. Go back and look for the "operative word" in my post then try again.

 

On 2/17/2020 at 7:21 PM, TUALMASOK said:

You have to heal lost health even if you survive the raid. Same with energy and hydration.

Yes but you survived, most likely got some gear or finished quests. Small price to pay for completing a raid without dying.

Still doesn't explain why you would have to heal over half your health after being killed and losing everything you brought in with you.

On 2/18/2020 at 2:48 AM, robertacedane said:

Mainly to punish hatchling, mosling, pistoling or others that came to raid without gear and entering game nonstop without loosing anything because when they die they will have full health, hydration and energy , thats why it was implemented to make people use food, drinks and health items after raid

Thank you so much for this! That makes sense they would employ something to prevent that behavior. To bad they can't find a way to only punish those who cheese like that and not everyone. Perhaps in the future when more mechanics get released this would no longer be a problem.

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tobiassolem
40 minutes ago, FearedSkills said:

I'm confused.

Yes you are. This is a hardcore game, this is why you are "punished".

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sYs

Cause you died and you need to learn from your mistakes. 

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FearedSkills
11 hours ago, tobiassolem said:

Yes you are. This is a hardcore game, this is why you are "punished".

I understand getting punished by losing all the gear I went in with. That makes sense. Thanks for repeating the same useless crap the other guy said.

 

11 hours ago, sYs said:

Cause you died and you need to learn from your mistakes. 

Mistake was believing the community here had something useful to actually say. Aside from robertacedane the rest of you clearly have nothing useful to add, But thanks for playing.

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tobiassolem
1 hour ago, FearedSkills said:

I understand getting punished by losing all the gear I went in with. That makes sense. Thanks for repeating the same useless crap the other guy said.

It used to be that you also lost experience points.

When BattleState announced this game, they presented it to be punishing, hardcore and very difficult. Persistent health has been a part of this plan, and is a vital mechanic for the continued development of the environmental dangers. You will soon notice that, for example, you can't leave a raid and magically be free from toxins or similar, but that you need to gather antidotes and other cures (anti-rads for example). Having to heal-up between raids is a big part of all of this, you are meant to be punished as a player, it is by design.

It might be "useless crap" to you, but its exactly what this game is about.

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sYs
1 hour ago, FearedSkills said:

I understand getting punished by losing all the gear I went in with. That makes sense. Thanks for repeating the same useless crap the other guy said.

 

Mistake was believing the community here had something useful to actually say. Aside from robertacedane the rest of you clearly have nothing useful to add, But thanks for playing.

Meds are cheap.

If we open  your character sheet we will probably see that your value of inventory items is way above the minimal survival amount which is 50k rubles. 

If you afford a pistol - you are not poot.

+ scavs runs are litteraly free money. 

Edited by sYs

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CrackedTooth

I don't see it as unfair. If you go in geared and die your bars are set to 50, all your debuffs are reset, and whatever is in your prison wallet you keep. If you go in naked and die you're dropped to like 10 on all bars, your debuffs are reset, and whatever is in your prison wallet you keep. The key is to make people go in geared, simple as someone else already put it I know I'm repeating, sorry.
This is put in place to make you use items you have, to stop people from just hording money, and make it fun for the guy who one tapped you. I die alot, I've got a survival rate of 5% so shits ruff all around bud I get it. At the end of the day it's there because Nikita wants it there, he doesn't have to do what we say or want. We paid him to play in his game because we don't want to leave self harm marks on our self so we punish our selves this way. 

I hope you get better at the game and have fun in it. If ya can't then I hope you move on to something to do find fun. 

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RACWAR

The point of this mechanic is to put emphasis on SURVIVING and to deter from run and gun CoD gameplay, but also to encourage people to complete the game loop (Enter a raid, loot things, get out). If you wouldn't be punished for dying then the whole thing of extracting wouldn't matter.

Edited by RACWAR

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Barangolo
3 hours ago, FearedSkills said:

Mistake was believing the community here had something useful to actually say.

I see you are catching on quickly as to what many of the commenters here are about :D The fanboy base sticks together when someone can be bullied. You'll also notice they like to repeat the devs constantly without thinking for themselves. Which is the major barrier to progress if you ask me. That and when a mod closes discussions when they don't like a concept being challenged.

So beside the usual fallacies (comparing PMC runs to scav runs, appealing to the "hardcore" nature of the game, thinking that being punished for dying "motivates" to become better, etc.) indeed the main rationale of the devs of making adjustments on the fly is to change player behaviour. More specifically, when players choose certain avoidance strategies massively, a.o. hatchet running, which changes overall game mechanics. The less gear is used like this, the less the game is played as intended and all the features (esp. attachments, bullits, guns, etc.) are wasted developer money. In addition, hatchet runners hold no loot of value as they stow away valuables, so are basically filling raids with unused space and servers are costly.. Since maps usually have hotspots with top tier loot, it also means that 90% of the map is not used if it becomes a loot run to one spot, stow away top loot, disconnect, rinse and repeat. A real shame of all the work and detail that has gone into building these awesome maps, which we all agree are probably the best any game in the market has to offer currently.

The problem however is that this approach is wrong. As you rightfully pointed out: it does punish everyone, so it would only make sense if it deters hatchet runners from doing the run. So in the end it's a simple calculation whether it pays off. And as you will see in the raids: it does not deter anyone. In fact, hatchet run is on the rise, more than during previous patch. A hatcher runner of course has much bigger chance of dying and having to pay for it, but with loot being that much more valuable, it is a no-brainer that it pays off, a single slot loot from the closest hidden stash can pay for all heals already, within a minute you have paid for the raid. The alternative is gearing up, which is much more expensive than meds when you loose it, not to speak of the fact that if you want to survive a raid, you will be healing during the raid as well, while a hatchet runner does not care about health or survival.

The fact that the healing mechanic is not working is clearly seen by the latest mechanic the devs implemented as an experiment: AI are now aggroed on a poorly equipped player and will make him "tagged and cursed" for the remainder of the run.

So issues are constantly being patched that further complicates the game, instead of handling the problems at the core. In this particular case: the reasons for this avoidance strategy should be addressed. Of course the fanboys will tell you that these features are all perfectly sensible and "hardcore", including dying of hunger or thirst in 30 minutes :D

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Barangolo
1 hour ago, CrackedTooth said:

I don't see it as unfair. If you go in geared and die your bars are set to 50, all your debuffs are reset, and whatever is in your prison wallet you keep. If you go in naked and die you're dropped to like 10 on all bars, your debuffs are reset, and whatever is in your prison wallet you keep. The key is to make people go in geared, simple as someone else already put it

(actually, your health is reset to 30% on all bars when you die geared, not to 50. Your head only has 35 HP max, I wish I got 50 there after dying ;) The other parts are around 20, depending on limb max value)

I'm sorry but I see a major contradiction here: if the purpose is to make people go in geared, do you think that the only difference of one third of HP value (so the difference between 1% for no-gear and 30% for gear) will make people stop hatchet running. The answer is clearly NO. Don't take my word for it: see how the devs just introduced AI aggro if you go in low geared: it is because the healing mechanic clearly does not work to stop hatchet runners.

Also, just think for a second: a single one-slot loot item you find at the nearest stash can already pay for your full healing. The difference between HP left between gear or no gear is about 1,5 AI-2. That's a few thousand rubles. Now compare that to how much more you pay for "normal" gear and do the math. You will be raiding all week long as a hatchet runner before you pay as much as a single raid geared.

Nobody will be gearing up because of this difference. In fact, I'm pretty sure we have more hatchet runners than ever because people die with gear, then get pissed they would have to pay as well for healing, so do not heal and do hatchet runs with a moaning character where it does not matter whether you die or not, because you will have the same 1% left when you enter the next raid again.

Good luck defending a counterintuitive mechanic. I'm 100% sure this mechanic will be changed soon.

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schubbey
vor 7 Minuten schrieb Barangolo:

do you think that the only difference of one third of HP value (so the difference between 1% for no-gear and 30% for gear) will make people stop hatchet running. The answer is clearly NO.

think so too

vor 8 Minuten schrieb Barangolo:

I'm pretty sure we have more hatchet runners than ever because people die with gear, then get pissed they would have to pay as well for healing

i think most people use hatchling runs to kill their losses - so they run interchange 10 raids in a row, sell all the grakas and bitcoins to go in with thermal...what do they find now? right! hatchlings looting tech store

vor 10 Minuten schrieb Barangolo:

I'm 100% sure this mechanic will be changed soon.

poorly im not 100% sure about that...i wish they would change it, but people already complain about the game beeing to hard and unfair, even tho they say its supposed to be hardcore and punishing they will give people the opportunity to make safe profit all the time and we can just watch them looting all the good stuff while we risk gear

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AdhesiveTeflon
On 2/17/2020 at 9:50 PM, tobiassolem said:

bild.png.cdb7fd007b0a8e031011cc16b6a1bb42.png

Operative word: "Hardcore".

Then your character should start back from level 1 with no gear then.

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tobiassolem
4 hours ago, AdhesiveTeflon said:

Then your character should start back from level 1 with no gear then.

Like I mentioned earlier, there used to be loss of experience upon death. But the casual players complained to the extent where it got removed from the game. Personally I'd definitely appreciate a full-on hardcore mode like what you mentioned. That's how we used to play in DayZ for example. But that did not have a fully-fleshed out skill system like EFT does.

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FearedSkills

Thank you everyone for the comments and explanations. This has helped me understand a little better which was all I was asking for.

The devs sure do have a long road ahead of them if they wish to impliment something to combat those types of players that cheese the game.

Perhaps instead of punishing everyone for those that hatchet run why not give those that don't a buff of some sort? Something to give them an edge over those that choose to exploit? Just a thought.

 

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Thomasthacker22

I will say this. I started this wipe not knowing about the heal out of raid mechanics being added and immediately hated it because I started Back on tarkov roughly a week or two after wipe And lost all my heals in the first few failed raids but, I learned that it was the perfect time to use my scav run or to go make a cup of coffee. Even if my scav run failed quickly I would save a ton on meds by healing for the time I did. Do I believe it will ruin anything to take it out? Not really. Does it bother me that it is in the game? Not really. Especially after you get past that first week or so when you start making enough money that you can just buy meds or craft good meds with med station at level 1. The devs have compensated for this mechanic IMO. 

Edited by Thomasthacker22

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Stan464

My issues with Dying is that if you get shot in the Head/Chest you loose 80% health on all your Limbs.... Seems logical...

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Barangolo
On 2/21/2020 at 2:34 PM, schubbey said:

i think most people use hatchling runs to kill their losses - so they run interchange 10 raids in a row, sell all the grakas and bitcoins to go in with thermal...what do they find now? right! hatchlings looting tech store

Haha, yeah, the Circle of Life :D

Sure, I understand the reasons of a tactic of "compensating" fully. The failed logic in that thinking by hatchet runners though is that it does not need to be with zero equipment! If you want to compensate through low- or minimal-budget runs, it is worth to calculate odds vs cost: what will be the outcome of my run vs what I bring in. What baffles me most is when people go in with absolutely nothing, thinking that what you bring in is proportionately increasing with what you bring out. While actually minimal investment already increases profits by a lot. They forget that this also gives them the smallest possible chance to survive and thus also the smallest possible chance to live a bit longer and find something possibly much more valuable to secure in the SC. I tried out hatchet runs at some point, but saw at the first run already that you are giving yourself zero chance vs AI as well, who normally are easy to deal with until they notice you. Unless you're a ninja or can onetap an AI scav with a melee weapon (which is not as easy as it used to be in previous patches), you will simply not be able to benefit from being the first spotter, because AI have vicinity spotting senses. If you have the simplest of guns however, be it a TOZ or a Makarov, you can onetap an AI with low risk. It's a no-brainer: any gun can onetap in the head, while melee means a suicide run and while hitting the AI you can still die. Especially with the Makarov, you may even insure it, buy some SP7 rounds and after the first AI kill ditch it at a dark spot and nobody will take it, so you loose less to insurance than the cheapest piece of loot you find. It's basically minimal investment but increases survival chance at an encounter from almost zero to at least 50/50.

So this is where the hatchet run logic fails and makes no sense as a means to compensate for losses. If your example of 10 naked runs is paying off, imagine how these runs would go if the player had at least a Makarov! Even a really bad player will at least be able to drop a scav or two during some naked runs and already has more loot from those to pay for the lost Makarovs (if he looses more of them and no insurance return). One single AI kill and any item in his pocket has paid for your PM, which you just ditch and move on with the scav's gear, now with much more chance than just melee.

So I think that when logic fails, it shows that these decisions are not smart, but emotional. To compensate mentally for loss, without logic. And that actually if a player would want to "compensate" for a bad streak, he would be much better off not running hatchet but at least bring in a cheap pistol. I did plenty of pistol runs myself when I got frustrated with a death streak, good gear loss, cheaters, a team, etc., but it always brought something much better in kill loot than going in with melee only. I first did Makarov only, then stepped up to better pistols and better ammo as I saw how easy it is to simply walk into Interchange garage and take out any scav. After a while you don't even need to take their guns to use as using a pistol with AP6.3 or SP7 is often even a better option than a TOZ or shottie. So you keep low budget but get more and more confident with basic gear, without having to spend on full gear.

So I think the devs need to do something with the underlying reasons for these emotional and irrational decisions. Healing is simply not the right way. For one, because it clearly does not work and naked runs did not decline but are increasing. Second, because healing would have to change player behaviour because of increased cost. But that's a rational decision and when people make emotional decisions, they don't do the math. So the devs need to tinker the problems at the core that cause these emotional responses. If you ask me, I think this kind of avoidance strategy of players is because of imbalances that leave you feeling screwed over. If these are changed or mitigated by the devs, players will not choose this method to compensate. But instead of thinking about these core issues, I sadly see that the devs are trying to put plasters on the arterial bleeds.

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Barangolo
On 2/24/2020 at 10:40 AM, Thomasthacker22 said:

Does it bother me that it is in the game? Not really.

But that's not really the issue, is it? The question is: why should these mechanics be in there in the first place, if they are meant to address specific problems, in this case hatchet runs? If the mechanic does not have the desired effect, it just brings in an annoying mechanic that costs developer money, is unrealistic (since when does anyone enter a warzone with broken legs or half dead? or since when could anyone be 7HP away from death and still happily run around to collect and secure loot?) and probably loads the servers and back-end even more with garbage code, while its programming is already a mess.

It is also reversed logic to accept an issue that has been created by a nonsense mechanic, for the reason that you can adapt your playstyle.. The obvious solution is mostly the simplest one: just take out the mechanic that causes unnecessary complexity! Then you don't need to compensate for it by new types of behaviours that just take away from the immersion.

I think it does not do Tarkov good to have to perform extra chores outside the raids just because the devs think this solves some other issues. It inflates heals, just like the food/drink mechanic inflates food and drink and paves the way for market manipulation.

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BogNinja

I imagine it's to make sure people play scavs also, when I die I do a scav run, and after my character is healed. I have surprised some geared players (thanks for the cash) with my shotty, no armor and a desire to flip the scales. I think player scavs adds to the flavor of the game.

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schubbey
vor 16 Stunden schrieb Barangolo:

So this is where the hatchet run logic fails and makes no sense as a means to compensate for losses. If your example of 10 naked runs is paying off, imagine how these runs would go if the player had at least a Makarov! Even a really bad player will at least be able to drop a scav or two during some naked runs and already has more loot from those to pay for the lost Makarovs (if he looses more of them and no insurance return). One single AI kill and any item in his pocket has paid for your PM, which you just ditch and move on with the scav's gear, now with much more chance than just melee.

true and false at the same time, if you go in with atleast makarov you will try to escape while as hatchling you just go for the juicy loot and disconnect which makes a difference of 5-10 minutes atleast depending how fast you make it, also you always have the risk of failing the extract which would mean those 10 minutes were for nothing while you couldve spawned as hatchling 2 times (were not talking about people who understand the game, i dont think someone who understand atleast the basics would go in as a hatchling except for doing quests but even then...)

also keep in mind that if you play with atleast a makarov you probably cant kill most of the players due to armor, also scav boss minions wont be a thing so you should go in with atleast five-seven but when you spend those 40-50k you can also take backpack and then further armor and basically normal loadout just five-seven instead of ak or whatever...personally id prefer to go in as hatchling than makarov :S

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Barangolo
19 hours ago, schubbey said:

if you go in with atleast makarov you will try to escape while as hatchling you just go for the juicy loot and disconnect which makes a difference of 5-10 minutes atleast depending how fast you make it

That's not what I meant: having a gun does not mean you have to do anything differently. Let's just call this a "loot run", which has the option of doing it with or without a gun, that's the only difference. What I actually meant is to take in a Makarov and do the same run as you would as a hatchling: same path, same speed, same tactics. You would still behave like a hatchling, with the only difference of having a gun in your hand. The difference in time is therefore not worse, but better, because when an AI crosses your path, instead of trying to dodge bullits, hide or take a detour, you can aim and shoot and if you survive, you saved at least 3-10 minutes that it now takes to await the starting time of your next raid if you die, servers being as they are. Compare this to the 20-30 seconds may you loose with engaging a scav AI and actually surviving.. In addition, any scav kill already paid for your pistol, because of kill loot you can secure, even the smallest piece in the pockets. Since the location of AI are well known, you would also know in advance where along your path you would encounter them and prepare (mentally) already for the encounter or even position favourably to have better line of sight before you engage. Sure, the argument applies that a hatchling just runs and does not care to line up a shot, but if a hatchling does only that, then it is a matter of pure luck of being shot or not, which means being a moving target. Being a moving target is enough to have significant odds of being shot by AI and even when not dead, be slowed down enough not to reach the loot destination. Compare this to the minimal time that you would slow down because you have a gun and line up a shot, those few seconds could make up for all the wasted time of being killed.

19 hours ago, schubbey said:

i dont think someone who understand atleast the basics would go in as a hatchling except for doing quests but even then...

In my experience it's the other way around: the reality is that most hatchlings I kill are level 30-40+.. My theory on why you often might find more lower level dogtags on hatchlings (the dogtag proves who killed them) is because these are killed by AI and have not been looted (yet) by players, while more experienced hatchet runners are killed by more experienced geared players. The more experienced (geared) players will get faster to the central lootspots and therefore they kill the hatchlings and take their dogtags. By the time that less experienced players arrive (who may have been going slower due to being more cautious or taking more time when engaging scavs) and see the hatchling's naked body, most of the time the dogtag is gone or in case of later (low level) runners they were killed by AI. Sure there are many players as well who are running naked because of no funds or being inexperienced, but in my experience hatchet runners are just money makers and more experienced players survive better as a hatchet runner than less experienced ones, due to map knowledge and knowing AI patrol routes. Whether it's money farming for out-of-game real-life money making (selling on eBay and such) or for wanting to pump their funds, it doesn't matter, they know the game inside out.

20 hours ago, schubbey said:

also keep in mind that if you play with atleast a makarov you probably cant kill most of the players due to armor

Bringing in a Makarov during a loot run (so all else unchanged, just running to the loot location) means being there first, so you will not engage geared players before you reach the loot spot, because they do not run blindly to these spots, as they have gear to loose when being careless. Depending on spawn point, players will choose the closest location where you can use your keys, once good loot is secured you disconnect. At Customs for example you know that spawning at Big Red means you should loot that instead of running all the way to Dorms (and the safe and PC's/pockets there will fill your SC), while spawning at the train tracks you are close enough to Dorms to target that or go for Old Gas if you spawned close to that, same goes for Shoreline spawns where you can choose between Radar station, Village, Resort or scav Island depending on spawn location, etc.

20 hours ago, schubbey said:

also scav boss minions wont be a thing so you should go in with atleast five-seven

A hatchet runner will obviously not want to face scav bosses or raiders, but choose safer options to make way more money. On Reserve the loot rooms are oddly far from scav bosses or minions for example, but even Dorms can most of the time be done without engaging Reshala's crew, etc. Of course you cannot onetap a Zavodskoy brother with a Makarov, but if you notice them in the 3-storey, you go loot the 2-storey, if they are at Gas Station, you go Dorms, etc. Let's not forget, this is a lootrun and shortlived either way, no long term survival is planned to have to fight anyone.

Anyway, a lot of theory, but what I advise you to try out is do 10 raids as a hatchling with a set path, then do the same runs in exactly the same way but this time with an ensured Makarov with SP7 rounds in your hand (or step it up with only slightly higher cost and a better pistol with AP 6.3 rounds for much better survival ods), do the same runs and as soon as you have the loot or have a scav kill, ditch the insured pistol safely and you will see how much time you saved by not dying and how little money you lost through pistols, but how much more loot you gained by having increased survival odds. Again, the essence of the difference is that with all small items having high value in this patch, even the shortest extra time you survive by having increased your survival chances will bring you much more profit through petty loot that you can secure, instead of being a moving target for even AI scavs.

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