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Jordan0408

Hatchlings need to GO

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Jordan0408

Something needs to be done about players coming into a raid with nothing and running straight to the good loot spawns.... for instance the amount of hatchlings I have killed on shoreline is absurd, They just run to all the red key card spawns and if they find nothing they disconnect and go again, The tagged and cursed method I find is not good enough in my opinion you should not be able to enter a raid with no PRIMARY WEAPON.. seeing level 30+ players coming into a raid with nothing but there keytool and a hatchet it's a joke and something needs to be done to prevent this.

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Alpha_Falcon

What about beginners and unskilled players? Let's say they tried but can't survive scav runs and have lost all of their primary weapons. Now they can't even play the game anymore, bricking their account permanently.

This isn't the solution to the problem

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Laviic
7 hours ago, Jordan0408 said:

you should not be able to enter a raid with no PRIMARY WEAPON

I kinda agree AND disagree on this one. Going into a raid literally naked should not be allowed. But then again... bring one shitty gun for under 10k Ruble, and you're fine? Wouldn't really stop the wealthy players, imho.

 

10 minutes ago, Alpha_Falcon said:

bricking their account permanently

What do you mean? Even if you die with your Scav, you just have to wait 20 minutes until you can try again. And again. And again. And again. You can always play with a Scav. The worst thing that will happen is that you won't be able to play your PMC all that often, but you can never "brick" your account.

 

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Beefyrulz

You know what I think might make for a halfway reasonable middle-ground for secure containers?


What if they made it so secure containers have to be locked/unlocked with an animation to go along with it. Maybe it takes something like 5 seconds or something, or even give each player a unique 3-number combo lock that they have to manually input whenever they're unlocking their container. So when your container is Unlocked, gear can flow freely into and out of the container without issue. However that also means if you're killed while your container is unlocked, other players can loot from the container and it will be inaccesible to yourself, or Jammed until the raid in which you died ends.. However if you take the time to Lock your container, it will become inaccessible to all players including yourself either for the remainder of the raid, or until you take the time to unlock your container once more. But also remove all restrictions on what gear can be placed into a secure container, that way you can secure thermals and guns and gear again.


To summarize;

Unlocked; Your container is unlocked and may be searched and stored loot may be taken by other players. The secure container itself, may not be looted as it has always been.
Locked; Your container is locked and all loot inside is Secured. Nobody including yourself may access or manipulate the contents within the container until it is unlocked or you are out of raid. The secure container itself, may not be looted as it has always been.
Jammed; Your container will be inaccessible to yourself in or out of raid until all active raids containing an instance of your unlocked secure container have ended.

I feel like this would be the simplest (maybe not code-wise) solution to secure containers in general, but of course that opens up a whole new can of worms with docs cases, keybars, storing ammo/meds in your case, etc. While that issue could probably do with a full thread on its own, I think one solution could be to give the player a slot for a keybar/docs/sicc case. Like a single dedicated 'Intel' slot or something that acts how secure containers currently work. That would seem reasonably balanced as players wouldn't have to risk losing all their keys/keycards every time they unlock their secure container and ammo/meds would be treated more like the consumables they are.
Either that or the game just has to re-balance around the concept that players might lose all of their keys more frequently and go from there. Which would of course have a pretty great affect on the price of keys/keycards if they're treated as items than can and will be lost on death.

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tambo22003
On 2/19/2020 at 11:06 AM, Beefyrulz said:

You know what I think might make for a halfway reasonable middle-ground for secure containers?


What if they made it so secure containers have to be locked/unlocked with an animation to go along with it. Maybe it takes something like 5 seconds or something, or even give each player a unique 3-number combo lock that they have to manually input whenever they're unlocking their container. So when your container is Unlocked, gear can flow freely into and out of the container without issue. However that also means if you're killed while your container is unlocked, other players can loot from the container and it will be inaccesible to yourself, or Jammed until the raid in which you died ends.. However if you take the time to Lock your container, it will become inaccessible to all players including yourself either for the remainder of the raid, or until you take the time to unlock your container once more. But also remove all restrictions on what gear can be placed into a secure container, that way you can secure thermals and guns and gear again.


To summarize;

Unlocked; Your container is unlocked and may be searched and stored loot may be taken by other players. The secure container itself, may not be looted as it has always been.
Locked; Your container is locked and all loot inside is Secured. Nobody including yourself may access or manipulate the contents within the container until it is unlocked or you are out of raid. The secure container itself, may not be looted as it has always been.
Jammed; Your container will be inaccessible to yourself in or out of raid until all active raids containing an instance of your unlocked secure container have ended.

I feel like this would be the simplest (maybe not code-wise) solution to secure containers in general, but of course that opens up a whole new can of worms with docs cases, keybars, storing ammo/meds in your case, etc. While that issue could probably do with a full thread on its own, I think one solution could be to give the player a slot for a keybar/docs/sicc case. Like a single dedicated 'Intel' slot or something that acts how secure containers currently work. That would seem reasonably balanced as players wouldn't have to risk losing all their keys/keycards every time they unlock their secure container and ammo/meds would be treated more like the consumables they are.
Either that or the game just has to re-balance around the concept that players might lose all of their keys more frequently and go from there. Which would of course have a pretty great affect on the price of keys/keycards if they're treated as items than can and will be lost on death.

No, it would be to Clunky. 

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Beefyrulz
46 minutes ago, tambo22003 said:

No, it would be to Clunky. 

That's sort of the point. Secure containers are meant for keeping that special loot you find in raid secure. Being able to just teleport it into a pocket dimension at the click of a button and instantaneously making it inaccessible to everybody else is just wildly unrealistic. I mean come on now, this is a game where you literally have to take the time to crack open a soda can and chug it, or rip open a package of crackers and eat them individually one-by-one.
If you ask me, needing to take the time to deliberately unlock your secure container so you can place something inside, lock it, and keep it secure would probably be the most realistic, logical, and in my opinion, effective solution to rebalance secure containers, remedy hatchlings, and preserve their overall intended functionality.
If you ask me, this solves a lot more problems than it could potentially create.

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tambo22003
2 minutes ago, Beefyrulz said:

That's sort of the point. Secure containers are meant for keeping that special loot you find in raid secure. Being able to just teleport it into a pocket dimension at the click of a button and instantaneously making it inaccessible to everybody else is just wildly unrealistic. I mean come on now, this is a game where you literally have to take the time to crack open a soda can and chug it, or rip open a package of crackers and eat them individually one-by-one.
If you ask me, needing to take the time to deliberately unlock your secure container so you can place something inside, lock it, and keep it secure would probably be the most realistic, logical, and in my opinion, effective solution to rebalance secure containers, remedy hatchlings, and preserve their overall intended functionality.
If you ask me, this solves a lot more problems than it could potentially create.

Then it better take 16 hours to unlock and lock the containers. Otherwise, they would just go to the loot spot and grab everything and shove it into their A hole in a corner, and you still wouldn't be able to find them.

Hatchlings dose not need to put things into the safe ASAP. They just need to go fast.

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Beefyrulz

See I get that you're using hyperbole to make a point, but let's be honest, the main issue with hatchlings right now is more so the fact that they can instantly make loot inaccesible by teleporting it into their gamma. I feel like more often than not when you see a hatchling rushing a loot spot, they're only just a little bit ahead of you. So making them need to take the time to unlock & relock their container (maybe upwards of 10 seconds or so) is honestly enough time to catch up and gun them down before they finish. It'd be like using a surgery kit, and you'd know it's safe to rush them because if they cancel the animation, they don't lock their container and they die, and if they commit, they don't lock their container and they die.
If your issue is that they'd still grab loot, run away, hide in some little nook, and lock their case, all before you could find them. That's not a hatchling issue, because it wouldn't really have mattered if they had gear or not since either way you didn't see/find them and they were gone before you got there. If you're late enough to a loot spot that you can't track down or find an escaping hatchling, then that's  just bad timing.

The point is, it would at least give a chance to reclaim any found loot from a hatchling when they rush a loot spot.
Eventually hatchlings would start to realize that they're literally just opening marked rooms for people and giving them free loot, or even if they make it so you have to keep any keys/keybars/docs cases in your gamma, then that just hammers home the concept that they're just wasting time and money by not bringing gear to keep themselves safe and secure when they unlock their container and consequently go for a marked room, because all the while they're taking the time to open their container, unlock the door, loot the room, store any desired loot back in their gamma, and relock it. ALL their gear is vulnerable in that time-frame, including the contents of their gamma (But not the gamma itself), including their keybar/docs/sicc case and marked keys.

Then of course they could even balance it more by making each of the secure containers take varying amounts of time to unlock/lock. So like an Alpha container is like 3-4 seconds to lock/unlock, but it's only a 2x2. Then maybe something like a Kappa or Epsilon case takes like 7-8 seconds since they're big cases and have more latches/locks, but can fit much larger objects.

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ScavTeamSix

they dont need to do anything to nerf hatchlings ... they need to nerf spawns on areas where there are high loot areas. shoreline is the prime example of it ... 2 spawns exist where you are right next to resort. why is that a thing? they also need to overhaul damage to make sure ... hatchlings dont have the same advantages as geared players, and what i mean by this. if i use high tier ammo against a non armored target the rounds over penetrate meaning they dont do the full 100% damage. any round that hits a flesh target will suffer no matter what. hatchlings just need to be more promenade to damage. there is no reason why they are allowed to take this many rounds and still get away ( just cause they took a painkiller). damage needs to be overhauled and blacked limbs need to be more severe as they are not punishing enough simply because there are too many ways to negate its negative effects. (propital, vaseline etc)

hatchlings are not the problem the mechanics of balistics and spawns are what create the economy. make people work to get the loot off the map instead of just spawning next to it and make damage more severe if you have blacked limbs cause people tank too much without armor. 

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Muzial

Loots getting randomized at some point so people can't beeline for that good shi-

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Beefyrulz

You know that's actually how AP rounds work in real life, right? That's why AP is for fighting armor, and HP is for fighting flesh.
Yes it'll still hurt no matter what, but that's like saying you want your kitchen knife to cut up your apple and turn it into apple sauce at the same time. 

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ScavTeamSix

so for the purpose of the game your saying if i shoot you in the leg and destroy your quad you can still run ? or if i shoot you in the liver your not going through shock and still work at 100% capacity just cause i "over Penetrated" you ? if i shoot you through your lungs and you have a whole in your lungs you can still use a sniper rifle and hold your breath ? as if nothing happened ? ... hmmm okey doke.

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tambo22003
42 minutes ago, Beefyrulz said:

See I get that you're using hyperbole to make a point, but let's be honest, the main issue with hatchlings right now is more so the fact that they can instantly make loot inaccesible by teleporting it into their gamma. I feel like more often than not when you see a hatchling rushing a loot spot, they're only just a little bit ahead of you. So making them need to take the time to unlock & relock their container (maybe upwards of 10 seconds or so) is honestly enough time to catch up and gun them down before they finish. It'd be like using a surgery kit, and you'd know it's safe to rush them because if they cancel the animation, they don't lock their container and they die, and if they commit, they don't lock their container and they die.
If your issue is that they'd still grab loot, run away, hide in some little nook, and lock their case, all before you could find them. That's not a hatchling issue, because it wouldn't really have mattered if they had gear or not since either way you didn't see/find them and they were gone before you got there. If you're late enough to a loot spot that you can't track down or find an escaping hatchling, then that's  just bad timing.

The point is, it would at least give a chance to reclaim any found loot from a hatchling when they rush a loot spot.
Eventually hatchlings would start to realize that they're literally just opening marked rooms for people and giving them free loot, or even if they make it so you have to keep any keys/keybars/docs cases in your gamma, then that just hammers home the concept that they're just wasting time and money by not bringing gear to keep themselves safe and secure when they unlock their container and consequently go for a marked room, because all the while they're taking the time to open their container, unlock the door, loot the room, store any desired loot back in their gamma, and relock it. ALL their gear is vulnerable in that time-frame, including the contents of their gamma (But not the gamma itself), including their keybar/docs/sicc case and marked keys.

Then of course they could even balance it more by making each of the secure containers take varying amounts of time to unlock/lock. So like an Alpha container is like 3-4 seconds to lock/unlock, but it's only a 2x2. Then maybe something like a Kappa or Epsilon case takes like 7-8 seconds since they're big cases and have more latches/locks, but can fit much larger objects.

Djude, I see your point, no need to write a poem about it, but it doesn't stop the hatchling run. They would always want to go where the loot is. 10 ish second to open and close up a container is literally nothing. There is a lot of methods and ways to encorage a different play style proposed in this section. Dynamic loot is one of them and I think it is going to work out. You never want to ban a certain machincs in a game, you will crate another problem deal with the problem its self. Like the ones in Futurama the Show, they introducce owl to clean the overpoped pigeons and ended up with to much owls. If you limit the case like this, people will exit camp more, or spawn rushing, or use hacks.

30 minutes ago, Meatomor said:

they dont need to do anything to nerf hatchlings ... they need to nerf spawns on areas where there are high loot areas. shoreline is the prime example of it ... 2 spawns exist where you are right next to resort. why is that a thing? they also need to overhaul damage to make sure ... hatchlings dont have the same advantages as geared players, and what i mean by this. if i use high tier ammo against a non armored target the rounds over penetrate meaning they dont do the full 100% damage. any round that hits a flesh target will suffer no matter what. hatchlings just need to be more promenade to damage. there is no reason why they are allowed to take this many rounds and still get away ( just cause they took a painkiller). damage needs to be overhauled and blacked limbs need to be more severe as they are not punishing enough simply because there are too many ways to negate its negative effects. (propital, vaseline etc)

hatchlings are not the problem the mechanics of balistics and spawns are what create the economy. make people work to get the loot off the map instead of just spawning next to it and make damage more severe if you have blacked limbs cause people tank too much without armor. 

Tarkov is a poorly designed game with a sick game mechanism and awesome gun play. Spawns are crazy atm : D and I don't think they will be changed at all. They want someone to have advantage, so that it forces you to go somewhere else. They don't need to change the spawns, they NEED TO CHANGE THE LOOTs.

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Beefyrulz

 

19 minutes ago, Meatomor said:

so for the purpose of the game your saying if i shoot you in the leg and destroy your quad you can still run ? or if i shoot you in the liver your not going through shock and still work at 100% capacity just cause i "over Penetrated" you ? if i shoot you through your lungs and you have a whole in your lungs you can still use a sniper rifle and hold your breath ? as if nothing happened ? ... hmmm okey doke.

Maybe it will at some point, but no Tarkov doesn't have simulated internal organ damage, because that'd be a level of realism that would honestly kind of break the game for a number of reason. But more importantly, if you had a 5.56 sized hole going from the front-end to the back-end of your body from an AP round, yeah that's going to hurt, obviously, but it won't be as bad as a 5.56 HP round making a cone-shaped hole through your body, or leaving fragments of metal everywhere shredding your insides.  Even if you're on pain-killers, or morphine, and you've got adrenaline pumping through your veins, it's probably going to hurt, but honestly? Yeah you could probably still function reasonably well if you get shot with AP in the flesh. It wouldn't be until all the medication and adrenaline wears off that you'd really start feeling the effects. HP on the other hand, you'd be absolutely right. Not feeling pain is one thing, but completely obliterating someone's muscles in their legs? Yeah that leg is just straight up dead weight. But AP just won't do that, it's specifically designed to get through armor, not destroy it. So when you hit something waaaaay softer, you're going to over-penetrate and the bullet won't be as effective because the penetrator tip is still perfectly intact after going through flesh. The actual bullet never got the chance to catch and break apart like it's designed to.
If you've ever seen real life footage of people in shootouts, it is 100% possible to take a ton of rounds (Mostly speaking of standard ammunition, not AP or HP) and keep fighting like nothing happened, especially if that person is on some kind of drug.

Not that I'm trying to brag or pretend I'm an expert on the subject, but I used to watch a lot of firearms self-defense videos online that show body-cam or security cam footage of stuff like that, and it happens a lot more than you might think. That's why most self-defense experts say that 'You keep shooting until the target stops moving', because some dudes really do take rounds, hit the ground, and get right the duck back up and keep fighting like nothing happened, because meth is a hell of a drug.

Edited by Beefyrulz
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wishnuiio

Tarkov is a poorly designed game with a sick recreation mechanism and exquisite gun play. Spawns are crazy atm : D and I don't assume they will be changed in any respect. They want a person to have gain, in order that you can use any cutter tool or any knife for your survive, and if you dont have the click here to see the reviews that helps you to buy the best tooll. it forces you to go elsewhere. They don't need to trade the spawns, they NEED TO CHANGE THE LOOTs.

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Smile_King
On 2/18/2020 at 6:09 PM, Laviic said:

What do you mean? Even if you die with your Scav, you just have to wait 20 minutes until you can try again. And again. And again. And again. You can always play with a Scav. The worst thing that will happen is that you won't be able to play your PMC all that often, but you can never "brick" your account.

 

Yeah but relying on your scav which currently is on a 20 minute timer I dont think is good for the overall health of the game. We have to find a better way 

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ScavTeamSix
13 hours ago, Smile_King said:

Yeah but relying on your scav which currently is on a 20 minute timer I dont think is good for the overall health of the game. We have to find a better way 

yea but that's part of the game for now, there is way to many resources that allow players to get rid of that "poverty hole" that people are stuck in, use the fleamarket cause right now its pretty easy to get money back, when it comes to raiding, think outside the box man, level up your hideout and you remove that 20 minute scav timer to a 7/8 minute scav timer which is ... powerful, a scav every 8 minutes. plus getting more exp for doing stuff and more money from doing quest just by leveling up your "intelligence center" is way to much of a resource pmc's have access to. They dont need to find a better way to compensate those runs you end up losing cause thats bound to happen sometimes man. Thats just part of the game. 

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Zolty47
Posted (edited)

Radical but maybe necessary changes:

 

1. Secure container is locked for pre-raidgadgets, you cant put anything into it during raid, its no "instant extract red keycard" tool anymore.6

Only meant for things already owned gear you cant afford to loose, keys and keycards. A few items more but thats it.

Secure container is not anymore for "instant extract precious loot".

 

2. A dynamic brought in gear value <----> raid timer system.

!!!Counts only for unensured gear, if all gear is insured, run is considered as hatchling run, 25 minutes min raid time.!!!

So the extract are locked at first, only activate after 25 minutes <----> 8 minutes.

More gear (money-wise) ---> less needed raid timer, 1.000.000 rubel worthy gear or more (secure container not included) means 8 minutes minimal raid time.

Hatchling run (nothing but your melee weapon and secure container + content) ---> highest needed raid timer, minimal 25 minutes. Only if you survive 25 minutes from raid start with no/ poo  gear you are allowed to extract.

More value you bring uninsured into a raid you are allowed to extract sooner.

More uninsured gear ----> higher risk ---> higher reward ---> shorter raid time (minimal  forced raid time: 8 minutes)

Less uninsured gear ----> less risk ----> lower reward -----> longer raid time

(Maximal forced raid time: 25 minutes)

Hatchling runs will with these 2 changes loose their sex appeal.

Who wants to be a pussy anyway??

Edited by Zolty47
Tipping mistake

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DavisM1988

hatching need to go,     i don't understand why,   most people who see hatching are people rushing for the loot also or you would never see them

i don't think they should go, i think they need to add different tear AI between scavs and boss and locations that high loot spawns, this will slow low geared players down and geared player should have no problems

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Zolty47
vor 12 Minuten schrieb DavisM1988:

hatching need to go,     i don't understand why,   most people who see hatching are people rushing for the loot also or you would never see them

i don't think they should go, i think they need to add different tear AI between scavs and boss and locations that high loot spawns, this will slow low geared players down and geared player should have no problems

What do you think about my idea, instead of punishing and making certain playstyles impossible it adds risk to the hatchling runs.

 

They cant put the loot into the secure container anymore and would have to survive for a long time with no / bad / less gear. 

So people eho risk sth by going in with good gear get some benefits.

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DavisM1988
2 hours ago, Zolty47 said:

What do you think about my idea, instead of punishing and making certain playstyles impossible it adds risk to the hatchling runs.

 

They cant put the loot into the secure container anymore and would have to survive for a long time with no / bad / less gear. 

So people eho risk sth by going in with good gear get some benefits.

i like the idea, but i think everyone should have there own play style, if they wanna go with nothing and stick stuff in container then let them, but i think to let people do that and slow them down just add AI in high loot areas so they cant just run in and loot or tthey will be dead, slows them and give geared players time to catch up and they will be dead,     stops the hole no gear idea,   if that dont work then yea restrict the boxs but as a normal geared player i would like the chance to add to my case if i fine something nice when looting, or it will just become a large med bag

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Zolty47
Posted (edited)
vor 8 Stunden schrieb DavisM1988:

i like the idea, but i think everyone should have there own play style, if they wanna go with nothing and stick stuff in container then let them, but i think to let people do that and slow them down just add AI in high loot areas so they cant just run in and loot or tthey will be dead, slows them and give geared players time to catch up and they will be dead,     stops the hole no gear idea,   if that dont work then yea restrict the boxs but as a normal geared player i would like the chance to add to my case if i fine something nice when looting, or it will just become a large med bag

Thank you for your reply, please let me explain it further, then we could find an agreement, because the suggested system will take your point in consideration and will do all playstyles justice. If you increase the scav count, you increase it for everyone so everyone gets "punished" because of few people. Not a fair move. The system would be adaptive to players decisions.

Secure container, how it should work in my opinion, and why:

1. Nothing that you find in raid is allowed in the container, with 1 exception, raid ammo in your brought-in magazines and guns is allowed.

---> will boost pistols, smgs and small MPs because they are small enough for the secure container, low caliber guns like MP5K will get more attractive to use, less powerful but also less risk getting lost.

2. Opening the secure container works the same way like searching a loot box, it gets opened and objects get indentified over 4 seconds, after these 4  seconds you can take in and out.

Has to be done again, if you close the window.

Why: If you come into a gun fight against a squad and you are sure to die, then it shouldnt be a easy way to let your gear escape into the secure container. So the victor of this fight will get his earned reward.

4 seconds are managable outside of a gunfight, but not if you already are within one.

3. Before the raid starts, there are only following items allowed in container:

• keys and key cards and the small bags for them, keytools

• up to 3 magazines

• medication

• up to 3 grenades

• quest-only items, thequest has to be active

These restrictions get lifted once the raid has started.

Why and further:

- you cant double your gun amount easily. 1 smg in your gun selection and 1 in secure container will be prevented.

- survival elements like eat and drink etc remain impactful

Secure container, in-raid restrictions, again:

1.no loot, no in-raid found things, no keys, keycards, no money, nada

--> to earn the loot, you have to survive the raid, always

--> all owned, pre-raid, brought in gear is allowed, with following restrictions:

• no assault rifle, sniper rifle, carbines etc classified guns, only allowed guns are MPs, SMGs AND ALL HOLSTER GUNS

• for clearification: all brought in mods are allowed in the secure container.

• insured gear is allowed being put in the secure container, with the afore mentioned restrictions.

Raid-timer-system:

I already discribed it above, now a few clearifications and additions:

All playstyles, as long no glitches, bugs or cheats are used, should be possible.

 The system is meant to achieve following things:

All playstyles come with zheir own costs and benefits

Lower end gear --> min raid time 25 minutes wont let them escape easily, although they loot first and have poo gear, was their choice.

Higher end gear --> min raid time 8 minutes will let them escape easily, although they loot last and have high value gear, risking to loose more.

Both sides have approximately the same chance to get the same loot, but in different ways.

It balances the extremes and punishes nobody.

 

 

Edited by Zolty47

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Zolty47

1 more thing, picking your argument up:

If a low gear enters high value areas, it will trigger raider spawns in these certain areas. The scale of that is a max 8 raiders to 3 raiders spawn.

Low gear pmc  ---> high raider count spawn  but average equipment --> mid gear pmc mid raider count  higher equipment, also more aggressive--> highest gear pmc, max raider count, smartest AI possible

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Scratchie

All this text even though the answer is obvious.

Secure containers need to be reviewed. You have a alpha container big whoop you are not stuffing anything of value up your ass or best case scenerio maybe one big ticket item. You got a big ass secure container from being high level or paying the big money and you can stuff everything up your ass and walk out with hundreds of thousands of rubles literally no risk. A pack of screws/bolts pays for your medical bills.

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Zolty47
Posted (edited)
vor 25 Minuten schrieb Scratchie:

All this text even though the answer is obvious.

Secure containers need to be reviewed.

The devil is, as always, in the details.

Therefore so much text because its a complex issue.

Secure container overhaul and the mentioned raid timer system, that sets minimal tim higher and higher for lower and lower gear runs.

Container shouldnt be usable as instant extract loot mechanic. Therefore you should play the game and survive / escape as a person.

Being first getting the loot also means you have to defend it for the longest. Who laughs last, laughs the loudest 

My in detail deiscribed 2 points would achieve that without making certain playstyles impossible, only balanced in risk.

Edited by Zolty47

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