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Pongo115

AK's reload animation

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Pongo115

I think ak's reload animation should be changed. I know that the devs have more important things to worry about now but i belive that this is worth mentioning. So current animation looks like the character would press the button at the side of the gun or something (like AR) to release the magazine. In real AK the release "button" is placed underneath the gun, between magazine and trigger cover. It is designed that way to actually instead of pressing it by your finger, snap it with the another magazine to make the reload faster. This is with fast reload of course.(Animation with tactical reload is fine.) Moreover you should pull the charging handle with your weaker arm, (in game your left arm now) and you should do it by swinging it under the gun. Currently, when reloading, your character supports the front gun grip by he's left arm and charges the handle with his right arm. This is very unproffesional since you should always have your hand on the pistol grip so you can take a shot at any time.

*This is based on real military techniques* 

Hope you'll mind this :)

444.png

44.png

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SirBarnaby

I assume this would apply for the tactical reload (dropping the magazine).

Tarkov currently has a weird stance with tactical reloads, most of the tactical reloads are almost always the same speed as normal reloads. Many examples to this: AS VAL, MP9, just every goddamn weapon really. They all do this stupid thing where our PMC can only do one thing at a time.

A real tactical reload would start with you taking out a fresh mag as the FIRST thing you would do, then drop the old mag and quickly replace. THAT would be quick. Not the stuff we have ingame right now.

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Alepap

Your character releases the mag release with the trigger finger, you can clearly see it in the animation. Nothing undoable in real life, but i do agree that it's slow and kinda useless the way it's implemented. Your character releases the mag but doesn't reach for a fresh mag at the same time, making the "fast reload" kind of pointless.

That being said, i gather that the best technique is the normal tactical reload, but instead you throw the empty mag with the motion:

0:11 (also want to be able to attach flashlight to the canted rail like on his AK, Nikita pls)

 

Currently Tarkov has an issue with the full vest and throwing mags down automatically. There should be a different animation for when you're reloading with full vest and if for some reason you don't have that skill leveled up or something, the reload should just take longer, because you'd be doing the swap in the vest.

Not just throw the mag automatically with no sound and no indication whatsoever.

 

Edited by Alepap

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Spectator6

Yes, good eye!

You'll be happy to know that, IIRC, the above reload technique is used once Weapon Mastery for the AK platform is above a three (someone please correct me if I'm wrong)

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Spectator6

Yes, see here @ 5:05 (the whole video is gold for those who have never seen it before!)

They are aware of this reload technique and again, IIRC, it's already in-game, just locked behind the Weapon Mastery skill for the AK platform.

-----

EDIT: Oh, and @Pongo115, great first post brother! Well laid out, nicely formatted... Welcome to EFT :)

Edited by Spectator6

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Spectator6
22 hours ago, Alepap said:

Your character releases the mag release with the trigger finger, you can clearly see it in the animation. Nothing undoable in real life, but i do agree that it's slow and kinda useless the way it's implemented. Your character releases the mag but doesn't reach for a fresh mag at the same time, making the "fast reload" kind of pointless.

That being said, i gather that the best technique is the normal tactical reload, but instead you throw the empty mag with the motion:

0:11 (also want to be able to attach flashlight to the canted rail like on his AK, Nikita pls)

 

Currently Tarkov has an issue with the full vest and throwing mags down automatically. There should be a different animation for when you're reloading with full vest and if for some reason you don't have that skill leveled up or something, the reload should just take longer, because you'd be doing the swap in the vest.

Not just throw the mag automatically with no sound and no indication whatsoever.

 

Yes, I agree!

I don't know for sure, but I suspect one of the reasons for this is to avoid the "teleporting hand".

In real life, if I know I'm about to perform a reload, I'll place my hand on the spare mag, get it grasped properly, and raised up to the "work space",  etc before ever manipulating the weapon itself.

In a game, however, there's no way to "pre-empt" the reload with the abovementioned steps since "R" (or whatever you have it set to) starts the entire reload process.

The only way to get close to an actual speed reload would be to let the offhand immediately *BING* disappear from the weapon and *BING* immediately have the spare mag coming up to the magwell, etc.

Technically, from a time sense, that might be more representative of a true speed reload's performance. But there's a good chance it would look weird and confusing to the end user. ("Wait, how the heck did he instantly have a mag ready to go right when I pressed R?")

Either way, the point being there's likely a visual trade-off/sacrifice that would need to be made.

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EDIT: For an in-game example of what I'm talking about, press L to have your character start the "Examine weapon" animation loop, then midway through it, press CLICK to fire. See how weird it looked to have the weapon INSTANTLY leave whatever state it's currently in and directly enter the fire animation?

Now, to see the opposite... Pull out your compass, then once it's in his hand, CLICK to fire. You'll see here there is a slight delay since the character first animates to quickly put the compass away.

That's the trade-off I'm talking about that animations introduce. Often it's either a responsive action (ie animation clipping/teleporting) or an unwanted delay (ie I need to shoot NOW, why the heck is he still putting away his compass!?!?!)

This is a common refrain for interrupting medical animations, as another example.

Edited by Spectator6

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Alepap
On 10/24/2020 at 12:45 AM, Spectator6 said:

In real life, if I know I'm about to perform a reload, I'll place my hand on the spare mag, get it grasped properly, and raised up to the "work space",  etc before ever manipulating the weapon itself.

In a game, however, there's no way to "pre-empt" the reload with the abovementioned steps since "R" (or whatever you have it set to) starts the entire reload process.

The only way to get close to an actual speed reload would be to let the offhand immediately *BING* disappear from the weapon and *BING* immediately have the spare mag coming up to the magwell, etc.

I don't see how that's different, when gun goes click, or you decide you want to reload, you move your left hand off the gun and start the reload.

Pressing R means for you to start moving your hand from the weapon to your vest, grab the mag, perform and the swap an get if back on the gun to fire again.

It's also not faster than the one we have currently, just different purpose. The swap is still happening, but on the gun instead of the vest, which always leaves an empty slot on the vest. That's why it's a superior reload technique.

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Spectator6
2 hours ago, Alepap said:

I don't see how that's different, when gun goes click, or you decide you want to reload, you move your left hand off the gun and start the reload.

Pressing R means for you to start moving your hand from the weapon to your vest, grab the mag, perform and the swap an get if back on the gun to fire again.

It's also not faster than the one we have currently, just different purpose. The swap is still happening, but on the gun instead of the vest, which always leaves an empty slot on the vest. That's why it's a superior reload technique.

Hello @Alepap :)

I see what you're saying, but when it comes to computerland, it's not correct. There's one key difference at play:

During the reload animation, in order for it to be accurate, the player needs to be able to fire while his offhand is reaching and acquiring the spare magazine and while he is stowing away the magazine during a retention reload.

Which, at first blush, may seem "easy", but it's not. If the player starts firing, is his intention to cancel the reload? And thus, similar to the "examine weapon" loop, immediately jumping to "normal"... Or is his intention to proceed with the reload while firing off a few more rounds?

So what we're dealing with then would be essentially two separately animated and coordinated arms that "meet" in the middle once the magazine comes up to the magwell. And, say we're dealing with a pistol, the weapon manipulation portion would become the "uninterruptible" state. If the player wants to retain, he'd catch the current while inserting the fresh, then stow away the current. And while stowing away the current, the same situation presents itself. Is the player able to fire? If so, that'd require the same two separately coordinated arm system mentioned above. If the player means to speed reload, he'd let the current drop to the ground, cleanly insert the fresh, then have the support hand go straight into a grip.

In this way, it's the during-manipulation and after insertion offhand state/movements that differentiate the two.

And developing that "two independent arm states for a reload" is no small feat and, as far as I'm aware, is not something that has ever been done before in a game.

(Does any of that make sense? Did I explain it well?)

EDIT: This is why, if BSG wants to emulate something close to the above without having to rework the entire reload system and create something akin to the "two arm" thing I discussed, they'd likely have to "cheat" with the use of offhand teleportations in order to somewhat-accurately represent the ability to fire throughout.

Edited by Spectator6
fix typos on fresh/current, add edit at end
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Alepap

Sure, if we're talking about interruptable animations and being able to fire mid animation there would be some form of jankyness.

I think we should definitely have staged animations, similar to something like in Insurgency sandstorm, where reload animation is split into stages. But not automatically. So mag out would be one stage, if you interrupt there for whatever reason, hand goes back to the gun with no mag in the gun ready to fire the one round in chamber. Pressing reload again would grab the new mag and insert. (This would give us a chance to see the already implemented charging handle vs bolt release animations on BHO weapons.) So you can switch to another gun mid animation, and then switch back, press r and would continue from the stage you left off.

All animations should be interruptable as much as possible, and maybe even continuous press, like chamber and reload checks(so you can do a faster or slower one for more or less info)

Also Charging handles, bolts, pumps, levers and hammers etc should be manually activated with a keybind, in my opinion. This would give more agency to the player and more immersive gameplay, than picking up a random AK off a corpse and racking the charging handle automatically because psychic powers that told you that the chamber was empty. Or psychic pressing R on shotguns instead of a magazine check.

 

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Spectator6

Yeah, props to INS:S for taking a step in the right direction.

1 hour ago, Alepap said:

So mag out would be one stage, if you interrupt there for whatever reason, hand goes back to the gun with no mag in the gun ready to fire the one round in chamber.

Okay let me clarify something though...

If mag out is stage one, we need to be sure we address the primary difference between speed and retention reloads, and that is their respective ability to fire "windows".

Here is a shitty paint drawing to illustrate

g891.thumb.png.e2670b6f828242e532d32947f220404f.png

With this in mind, then, it seems the initial press of R may be best served by having the player reach for and grasp the spare mag. 

Then R again to bring spare mag into workspace and complete the reload.

Maybe Alt-R could indicate a speed reload, and R is a normal retention reload.

Already that seems a bit too cumbersome... Especially considering that 9 times out of 10, the player will likely never need or want that level of granularity.

So with that in mind, perhaps the simplest way would be to have R or Alt-R perform a full retention or speed reload, but just allow "firing windows" as shown above where the player can continue to rock and roll if needed.

One of the main issues with this, however, will likely be that current firing animations are all modeled with two hands. As I described earlier, to pull something like this off, they may need to animate the offhand separately and sync them accordingly. Which I suspect could take a bit of work.

That, and I'd expect there to be some sort of recoil/accuracy penalty applied while the weapon is fired one-handed. Maybe also a *slight* shake as the player continues to aim?

This, combined with something like INS:S's "reload stage" memory could be a really nice compromise.

What do you think?

Edited by Spectator6
clarify

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Alepap

Lol, that's a good drawing.

1 hour ago, Spectator6 said:

With this in mind, then, it seems the initial press of R may be best served by having the player reach for and grasp the spare mag. 

Then R again to bring spare mag into workspace and complete the reload.

Already that seems a bit too cumbersome

Yeah, I don't think pressing 2 times R is a good idea for what would be a non ideal position to be in(having only one hand on rifle and one on vest. For Pistols wouldn't be a huge deal) You'd want to either complete the reload, or cancel the reload alltogether so you can have both hands on the gun to fire the remaining rounds reliably.

In reality you can fire with one hand while the other is still doing the reload like you show(althought is tough to hold on some rifles), but then if you do that you'd need another key to be able to cancel the reload if you wanted to be more accurate. My idea would be that left click would cancel the animation in those "windows" and you can fire again afterwards. But idk, either would be ok with me in my opinion.

We should also have unload mag key, for when malfunctions are implemented.

 

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Spectator6
1 minute ago, Alepap said:

Lol, that's a good drawing.

Yeah, I don't think pressing 2 times R is a good idea for what would be a non ideal position to be in(having only one hand on rifle and one on vest. For Pistols wouldn't be a huge deal) You'd want to either complete the reload, or cancel the reload alltogether so you can have both hands on the gun to fire the remaining rounds reliably.

In reality you can fire with one hand while the other is still doing the reload like you show(althought is tough to hold on some rifles), but then if you do that you'd need another key to be able to cancel the reload if you wanted to be more accurate. My idea would be that left click would cancel the animation in those "windows" and you can fire again afterwards. But idk, either would be ok with me in my opinion.

We should also have unload mag key, for when malfunctions are implemented.

 

Yes, good input!

Decided to move this to a new topic since I feel like the nitty gritty is getting away from Pongo115's initial post :)

 

 

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Spectator6
11 minutes ago, Alepap said:

We should also have unload mag key, for when malfunctions are implemented.

 

That is something they added to the game with the last patch :)

I have my keys set up like this

  • R reload with retention
  • R 2X speed reload
  • Alt-R Check magazine
  • Alt-R 2X Remove magazine

Similarly, for chamber manipulations

  • Alt-T Check chamber
  • Alt-T 2X Cycle slide
Edited by Spectator6

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Alepap

Oh nice i thought it was only for chamber

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