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NoSerialBliky

realistic changes to CQB

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NoSerialBliky
Posted (edited)

1. Armor and non penetration effect: I always complained about how strong armor in tarkov is and how CoD does it make this game. So basically in real life high end armor do stop a lot of rifle caliber bullet BUT it won’t if they place 2 shot within the same couple of inches ( depends on armor, the tougher the closer the distance ), then it will go thru. This makes sure that armor has more role to play the more distance there is in question, that being said I propose to:

- split body armor into five or so different hit boxes, hitting one consequentially makes bullets do more penetration and armor damage. Right now you can shoot like 10-15 low tier rifle ammo ( PS, PP, BP ) and get killed only cause the guy had better armor and weapon, I just want low tier weapons and ammo have more lethality close range at least. Is it fair to kill 350k Slick armor with 20k Ak and 200 rub bullets? No, but it’s realistic, and life ain’t fair and you know that when you face somebody point blank and they get to shoot first. Would also be cool to have peoples camera get trucked side to side when you getting non penetration close range so it’d be harder to shoot back once somebody opened up on you point blank.

2. Recoil: recoil on the rifled are way higher than what’d you realistically expect especially in the hands of a PMC. Right now it just feels like a drunk female highschooler handling a rifle. Automatic firr is controllable on 7.62x39 if target is not far. 5 mm s are WAY more controllable than they are in the game, and funny thing is rifles do get to feel close to the real thing only when you put a lot of mods on them which is not true, they just add to functionality and gadgets while it essentially stays the same weapon, I don’t feel like there should be a need for weapons to look like they are straight from call of duty Modern Warfare to be functional in a “realistic” video game.

Edited by NoSerialBliky
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SirBarnaby

Recoil you can control on your own so that it would be quite realistic. In real life, if you dont control for recoil, its gonna shoot up aswell. This is where your input as a player steps in.

For another thought: variable reload times! In my opinion would be a great change to make the game a lot less basic, since then you never know how long you reload and must plan accordingly, making CQB a lot less CoD. More tactics man. Is nice.

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WarTraveller

Care to elaborate what do you mean by "variable reload times? I hope it is not something based on RNG - we have plenty of RNG already, I for one am at RNG capacity...

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ACuddlyBadger
On 5/21/2020 at 8:52 AM, NoSerialBliky said:

1. Armor and non penetration effect: I always complained about how strong armor in tarkov is and how CoD does it make this game. So basically in real life high end armor do stop a lot of rifle caliber bullet BUT it won’t if they place 2 shot within the same couple of inches ( depends on armor, the tougher the closer the distance ), then it will go thru. This makes sure that armor has more role to play the more distance there is in question, that being said I propose to:

Steel armor does not work quite this way. Ceramic armor does. As long as the bullet doesn't cause significant backface deformation, it will continue to stop bullets just as well.  BSG will overhaul armor and make it so that it does not protect entire areas of your body, only the areas it physically covers. Slick armor will be pretty worthless compared to an IOTV vest with side plates and full torso protection. Interestingly there are clothes that you can wear that are rated to stop pistol caliber rounds and buckshot in real life. 

- split body armor into five or so different hit boxes, hitting one consequentially makes bullets do more penetration and armor damage. Right now you can shoot like 10-15 low tier rifle ammo ( PS, PP, BP ) and get killed only cause the guy had better armor and weapon, I just want low tier weapons and ammo have more lethality close range at least. Is it fair to kill 350k Slick armor with 20k Ak and 200 rub bullets? No, but it’s realistic, and life ain’t fair and you know that when you face somebody point blank and they get to shoot first. Would also be cool to have peoples camera get trucked side to side when you getting non penetration close range so it’d be harder to shoot back once somebody opened up on you point blank.

Soft core cold war surplus rifle ammo shouldn't be able to bypass modern armor in that manner ever. The game is hardcore because things are more binary, they either don't do the job at all, or they do it very well. Ammo is no exception, and it is realistic. 

2. Recoil: recoil on the rifled are way higher than what’d you realistically expect especially in the hands of a PMC. Right now it just feels like a drunk female highschooler handling a rifle. Automatic firr is controllable on 7.62x39 if target is not far. 5 mm s are WAY more controllable than they are in the game, and funny thing is rifles do get to feel close to the real thing only when you put a lot of mods on them which is not true, they just add to functionality and gadgets while it essentially stays the same weapon, I don’t feel like there should be a need for weapons to look like they are straight from call of duty Modern Warfare to be functional in a “realistic” video game.

Doing anything in real life, including shooting guns, is MUCH harder than it is in any video game. You got to align your sights properly, be able to operate the rifle without looking at it, and you need to compensate for the mechanical delay between you pulling the trigger and the bullet coming out of the barrel. You also need to compensate for physics, because if you are swaying a rifle while shooting it, the bullet will fly in the direction the rifle is moving, its like running while throwing a ball vs. standing still while throwing a ball.  

I agree wholeheartedly though with the last half of this, the guns in this game are far too mall ninja like. If you were to look at the rifle of every professional who relies on it, or American who trains with it, they all look different. RN parameters like Ergo and Recoil are very convoluted and pretty simplistic. They lend themselves to a "meta gun" which is the very best gun regardless of which player uses it. Competition shooter's guns are all different. 

 

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SirBarnaby
3 hours ago, WarTraveller said:

Care to elaborate what do you mean by "variable reload times? I hope it is not something based on RNG - we have plenty of RNG already, I for one am at RNG capacity...

I do mean pure RNG though. A reload that would take 3.5 to 4.5 seconds to finish, based on pure RNG. It would really change close combat, making it more believable.

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NoSerialBliky
On 6/5/2020 at 5:58 PM, ACuddlyBadger said:

 

I shot guns and I agree that the sway is a pain in a S when you have to align iron sights but once you do the kick itself if not as big as in this game at least my personal experience was 5.56 5.45 and 7.62x39 and yes all of them jumped less in real life for me than in eft.

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LasseNielsen
1 hour ago, NoSerialBliky said:

I shot guns and I agree that the sway is a pain in a S when you have to align iron sights but once you do the kick itself if not as big as in this game at least my personal experience was 5.56 5.45 and 7.62x39 and yes all of them jumped less in real life for me than in eft.

True, and while some attachments can reduce recoil, flashhiders/buttpads. The way it is in this game, is really weird.

Attachments mainly is a personal preference. It gives the operator a choice if he wants a flashlight on it or laser or what ever.

That there is meta attachments really goes against any realism.

A cool change could be, the more you use a curtain gun with specific attachments, the more recoil control you have on it.

Just becourse you have shot a lot with an assault rifle, doens't make you automatic a recoil expert on a different weapon system, just be course its also is classified as an assault rifle.

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kennyream66
On 5/21/2020 at 5:52 AM, NoSerialBliky said:

1. Armor and non penetration effect: I always complained about how strong armor in tarkov is and how CoD does it make this game. So basically in real life high end armor do stop a lot of rifle caliber bullet BUT it won’t if they place 2 shot within the same couple of inches ( depends on armor, the tougher the closer the distance ), then it will go thru. This makes sure that armor has more role to play the more distance there is in question, that being said I propose to:

- split body armor into five or so different hit boxes, hitting one consequentially makes bullets do more penetration and armor damage. Right now you can shoot like 10-15 low tier rifle ammo ( PS, PP, BP ) and get killed only cause the guy had better armor and weapon, I just want low tier weapons and ammo have more lethality close range at least. Is it fair to kill 350k Slick armor with 20k Ak and 200 rub bullets? No, but it’s realistic, and life ain’t fair and you know that when you face somebody point blank and they get to shoot first. Would also be cool to have peoples camera get trucked side to side when you getting non penetration close range so it’d be harder to shoot back once somebody opened up on you point blank.

2. Recoil: recoil on the rifled are way higher than what’d you realistically expect especially in the hands of a PMC. Right now it just feels like a drunk female highschooler handling a rifle. Automatic firr is controllable on 7.62x39 if target is not far. 5 mm s are WAY more controllable than they are in the game, and funny thing is rifles do get to feel close to the real thing only when you put a lot of mods on them which is not true, they just add to functionality and gadgets while it essentially stays the same weapon, I don’t feel like there should be a need for weapons to look like they are straight from call of duty Modern Warfare to be functional in a “realistic” video game.

This is the dumbest suggestion I have ever seen posted in these forums. Armor is ducking worthless in this game when scavs and players just one tap you in the ears or eyes all the time. You also have the balls to cry about losing to someone with a better gun and armor than you? Even if armor made a real difference, why are you focusing thorax? Beyond dumb.

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MrPeebles
1 minute ago, kennyream66 said:

This is the dumbest suggestion I have ever seen posted in these forums. Armor is ducking worthless in this game when scavs and players just one tap you in the ears or eyes all the time. You also have the balls to cry about losing to someone with a better gun and armor than you? Even if armor made a real difference, why are you focusing thorax? Beyond dumb.

Wow there, take it easy buddy, he is complaining about something just as you are complaining about the hit boxes on the head. No need to be calling names or judging, suggestions are just suggestions, either you like it or not, the ones who decide if they get into the game are the developers and nikita, so tone it down a little!

 

Besides what he/she's saying is actually true and makes sense.

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kennyream66
34 minutes ago, MrPeebles said:

Wow there, take it easy buddy, he is complaining about something just as you are complaining about the hit boxes on the head. No need to be calling names or judging, suggestions are just suggestions, either you like it or not, the ones who decide if they get into the game are the developers and nikita, so tone it down a little!

 

Besides what he/she's saying is actually true and makes sense.

The developers and Nikita don't give a poo about what we want. That's why they have been listening to what streamers want and never reply to any of these comments. Also no, what he is saying does not make sense. He wants even LESS recoil? HAHAHA. This game has no recoil control needed. He wants low tier weapons and ammo to be able to kill more at close range than high tier? Do you understand how poo that sounds?

All this time spent developing the ability to go sideways while prone and they continue to poo on us with real changes that would make the game fun. Remove fragmenting shots, fixing hit boxes on the head, getting rid of cheaters which this wipe have seemed to increase (even though I do not find many) and lowering the damage on ammunition. All of this poo is game breaking and I haven't even started on them limiting ping because they can't handle their own servers. Not often do I spend $150 on a game and watch it slowly get WORSE over time.

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LasseNielsen

I hope the new armour system that they want to make will fix both of your guys issues.

Armour is to OP... Well yes and no.

The fact that an armour protects your entire torso from shots is making it urealistic. Or arms for that matter.
Most of the armour like the gen4, that covers the arms, aren't actually rated to be level 5 on the arms. Most likely only rated for pistol or smg rounds.

When the new plate system comes. Low tier ammo... aka hollowpoint/full metal jacket, will be mush more usefull as they deal massive damage, and now isn't going to be stopped unless you hit the plate.

The plates in an armour can actually stop several hits from most types of bullets they are rated to protect against.

9mm would never go through a level 5 steel plate. it just don't have the penetration needed from such a small round.

Basicly if a round can defeat an armour plate. It does so quite easy. If it is rated to go through, it still needs to have the killing power after penetration to actually be usefull.
Only large caliber rifle rounds have the mass needed to "wear down" a steel plate it's not rated to go through.

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MrPeebles
5 hours ago, kennyream66 said:

The developers and Nikita don't give a poo about what we want. That's why they have been listening to what streamers want and never reply to any of these comments. Also no, what he is saying does not make sense. He wants even LESS recoil? HAHAHA. This game has no recoil control needed. He wants low tier weapons and ammo to be able to kill more at close range than high tier? Do you understand how poo that sounds?

All this time spent developing the ability to go sideways while prone and they continue to poo on us with real changes that would make the game fun. Remove fragmenting shots, fixing hit boxes on the head, getting rid of cheaters which this wipe have seemed to increase (even though I do not find many) and lowering the damage on ammunition. All of this poo is game breaking and I haven't even started on them limiting ping because they can't handle their own servers. Not often do I spend $150 on a game and watch it slowly get WORSE over time.

Oh sorry, my bad, I was talking about the armor not the recoil, I think the recoil is just fine the way it is. And in real life, weapons kick you in the face if you're not careful when you shoot them, so in-game it's actually easier xD

 

Low tier weapons and ammo in real life will (of course) do little to no damage to an armor, so it makes sense that in game is like that too.

What I think that makes sense is that bullets penetrate more when they hit the same spot repeatedly. A given armor will not always stop a bullet, not on the same spot.

 

Overall I also think there are more important things to fix right now other than armor/recoil, just like you said, cheaters, some issues with new FiR system, sounds...

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NoSerialBliky
Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, kennyream66 said:

This is the dumbest suggestion I have ever seen posted in these forums. Armor is ducking worthless in this game when scavs and players just one tap you in the ears or eyes all the time. You also have the balls to cry about losing to someone with a better gun and armor than you? Even if armor made a real difference, why are you focusing thorax? Beyond dumb.

If you the one who chooses to complain about how scavs kill you with shotguns by hitting your face past your armor it obvious that the changes you want to see is more arcade ones, not hardcore it’s cool but if you support overpowered armor as it is and don’t see why pellets to your face that went around armored zones of the helmet killed you or why scavs kill you with limb shots you obviously need to go play Rainbow six siege. As for you calling me dumb I understand mines and your view of what the game should be is different but you calling me that is going too far idk why game discussions and opinions get you so hurt go sit on a bucket of ice or something. And as for me crying I’m not crying Over loosing gunfights to a titanium bucket with a laser gun face to face but rather I’m annoyed how overpowered armor allow meta geared players make countless mistakes and get away with it. I lose a fair one to a meta build idc I move on, I ambush them, shoot them ten times close range and they still turn around and two tap me - I’m upset about that obviously cause it’s unrealistic and arcade, you could clearly see how in these cases game rewards having momentum and tactics less than having a meta build and being jacked up on Vaseline or stimulators. And it’s supposed to be a realistic game, a simulator one. For you getting triggered like a little barking lapdog on forums and thinking all this arcade scht is realistic shame on you.

Edited by NoSerialBliky
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NoSerialBliky
Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, MrPeebles said:

What I think that makes sense is that bullets penetrate more when they hit the same spot repeatedly. A given armor will not always stop a bullet, not on the same spot.

 

 

12 hours ago, LasseNielsen said:

I hope the new armour system that they want to make will fix both of your guys issues.

Armour is to OP... Well yes and no.

The fact that an armour protects your entire torso from shots is making it urealistic. Or arms for that matter.
Most of the armour like the gen4, that covers the arms, aren't actually rated to be level 5 on the arms. Most likely only rated for pistol or smg rounds.

When the new plate system comes. Low tier ammo... aka hollowpoint/full metal jacket, will be mush more usefull as they deal massive damage, and now isn't going to be stopped unless you hit the plate.

The plates in an armour can actually stop several hits from most types of bullets they are rated to protect against.

9mm would never go through a level 5 steel plate. it just don't have the penetration needed from such a small round.

Basicly if a round can defeat an armour plate. It does so quite easy. If it is rated to go through, it still needs to have the killing power after penetration to actually be usefull.
Only large caliber rifle rounds have the mass needed to "wear down" a steel plate it's not rated to go through.

What you say is true and yes it would be more fun to have variety and unpredictability to firefight as in you can bring a lvl 5 armor and still die to five shots of FMJ only cause one of them hits where the body is not protected. It would be more realistic in a simulator game tarkov claims to be because people don’t realize armor is not a warranted protection, it’s just a risk reduction and irl firefights are more random, it’s not a exact science where you have to calculate what level armor to wear and what ammo to use, it’s more luck ( or lack of thereof heh ) and shot placement. I’d like Tarkov to be more like that, wild random and dangerous which corresponds to hardcore to me rather than a game where you have to follow some meta to be on top cause other builds are far far less effective, it sounds more like a competitive cyber sport game to me, not a simulator, so I think BSG need to step their simulator and hardcore game up or change their title to competitive PVP online shooter for cyber sport people.

Edited by NoSerialBliky
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NoSerialBliky
Posted (edited)
On 6/5/2020 at 5:58 PM, ACuddlyBadger said:

 

And yes my friend I agreed about soft core/ lead round nose and all that other hunting nonsense, but as for regular army surplus steel core/mild still core ammo like 5.45 7n6 7.62x39 PS will do ceramic armor wrong close range, and if they won’t penetrate it right away which is not guaranteed they will they for sure can eat thru it if you shoot bursts steel armor tho with those kind of round is out of question and will be turned to Swiss cheese.

Edited by NoSerialBliky

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ACuddlyBadger

The biggest issue is the lack of compromise when choosing loadouts or leveling your PMC for those loadouts. Tarkov claims to be an RPG, but its not an RPG at all. Skills first off take too ducking long to level, and it takes too long to get the levels that really matter. You should gain the most benefits early and then gain diminishing returns, and those skills should level pretty rapidly.

They should also delevel themselves rapidly depending on how you play. There should be agility, strength, and endurance, you should not be able to have all 3. This would prevent players from being able to take a walking tank loadout with an altyn and a heavy rig unless their pmc is leveled enough to comfortably carry that armor. You can't just chuck on a 33 pound avs and 6.4 pound Fast MT with a visor and run around pointing a 10 pound M4 like you are a bionic human, while being able to shoulder it on a solid plate super fast. You also can't be anything other than uncomfortably clumsy unless you've heavily refined your gameplay to level your PMC to that armor. You shouldn't see a walking tank unless that person has taken the time to train their PMC and stick to that gameplay style long enough to use that without looking like a boy walking around wearing his dads replica Greathelm. I doubt you could squat walk in all that gear slowly and deliberately enough to be quiet. 

Another issue is the binary ammo availability, you either have it, or you don't have it. Flea doesn't count when its overcharged by at least several hundred rubles. I think traders should have a lower individual sale limit for high tier ammo if you can get enough every restock to magdump. Crafting ammo should require the corresponding bullets which could maybe get sold a level earlier for crafting, albeit more limited. I think this would prevent players from using this ammo so commonly, which would also reduce the need for armor that happens to be nigh impervious to bulk surplus ammo. 

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NoSerialBliky
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, ACuddlyBadger said:

The biggest issue is the lack of compromise when choosing loadouts or leveling your PMC for those loadouts. Tarkov claims to be an RPG, but its not an RPG at all. Skills first off take too ducking long to level, and it takes too long to get the levels that really matter. You should gain the most benefits early and then gain diminishing returns, and those skills should level pretty rapidly.

They should also delevel themselves rapidly depending on how you play. There should be agility, strength, and endurance, you should not be able to have all 3. This would prevent players from being able to take a walking tank loadout with an altyn and a heavy rig unless their pmc is leveled enough to comfortably carry that armor. You can't just chuck on a 33 pound avs and 6.4 pound Fast MT with a visor and run around pointing a 10 pound M4 like you are a bionic human, while being able to shoulder it on a solid plate super fast. You also can't be anything other than uncomfortably clumsy unless you've heavily refined your gameplay to level your PMC to that armor. You shouldn't see a walking tank unless that person has taken the time to train their PMC and stick to that gameplay style long enough to use that without looking like a boy walking around wearing his dads replica Greathelm. I doubt you could squat walk in all that gear slowly and deliberately enough to be quiet. 

Another issue is the binary ammo availability, you either have it, or you don't have it. Flea doesn't count when its overcharged by at least several hundred rubles. I think traders should have a lower individual sale limit for high tier ammo if you can get enough every restock to magdump. Crafting ammo should require the corresponding bullets which could maybe get sold a level earlier for crafting, albeit more limited. I think this would prevent players from using this ammo so commonly, which would also reduce the need for armor that happens to be nigh impervious to bulk surplus ammo. 

Right one individual who trained to be a foot soldier won’t perform equally to a one who trained to be say a sniper in a same situation. That being said tho a lot of people will actually cry and go complain for not being able to switch their gameplay at will tho just because they bored with it and that’s a big problem indeed since in the end of the day it’s a game and it’s fair enough if one could play as a sniper for two days and then want to change to a assault trooper for next 4 days which they obviously wouldn’t do in real life. There’s a big problem in EFT with how armor and ammo behave and no obvious solution but something has to be done cause what we have is highly annoying and unrealistic. Game is in early development tho and it’s not in mine or your hand but in Nikitas. Should he choose a arcade game route - both of us are wasting time rn, should he choose to make a realistic game sooner or later maybe we’ll see something that’s worth our time and money.

Edited by NoSerialBliky

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ACuddlyBadger

I did say that the leveling would be logarithmic, so you would be able to train your PMC relatively quick compared to how it is now, with diminishing returns the more and more you level.

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LasseNielsen

It all seems like we are getting there... slowly... They have plans for using different types of armour, and weapon systems. Buffs debuffs and so on.

They just implement it so insanely slow.

When you have people playing that go through all quests and content in a few weeks.

Adding major changes to the game for every 6 months just aren't fast enough to keep people not getting bored of the game play.

For all the people that like the game as it is now. I hate to say it, but the end game BSG is planning looks nothing like what we have now.

I think most of the suggestions in here will at some point be added to the game. When they get around to it.

BSG just does a horrible job in letting their playerbase know whats going on and when they hope to implement it.
 

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Techgtv

Honestly, what they need/ can do on a short term basis is having a 1-2 "mission" per map, where you get a certain rouble value that you can spend on gear depending on your side of the mission and then let people decide how to run the missions themselves.

I thin the biggest problem currently with armour/ammo is availability. The richest people can just buy whatever the hell they want without consequences. The TTK is too fast, most combat is under 100M ( 300 feet ),  and 90% of the ammo is useless right now.

I think a basic ammo rebalancing might do the trick for the short term, high pen ammo should simply do much less damage on unarmoured targets, but cause more bleeds. Fixing the penetrating values/bugs would help as well, which makes a lot more ammo viable due to the change of instantly breaking limbs on hit, and broken limbs should have much more effect then it currently does.

It's a tough thing to do, but spending time on this now before all the new mechanics are in place will at least prolong the "fun" in the game before everything turns into M995/Igolink/M61 and Slick again.

I also believe that doing a fixed 6 months wipe cycle, with every 2 months doing semi-wipes (reset all to a certain level, not 0) will improve the game short term as well. Imagine how many people will play whole wipe when every 2 months they get bumped to a higher level and skill level. So lets say:

Month 1-2 everyone is fresh and level 0 with all skills and traders 0
month 3-4 Everyone under 20 gets "reset" to level 20 with all soft skill levels at a certain level, level 3 traders
Month 5 Everyone under 40 gets reset to 40 with soft skills at a higher level, max traders
Month 6 Everyone gets level 60 with max (elite) skills, max traders and maxed hideout ( passive income to sustain more expensive gear but not "Free" stuff ).

I would still enjoy doing quests and everything, but you will get A LOT more data to get better at balancing it all. Because this is not the final game yet, and we will not have persistent characters yet who cares if people get higher level without doing the work. I got 5 friends who stopped playing because of the current wipe system and the non ability to kill people because they don't have 2-3 hours to play the game very day. They would 100% play if they would be able to compete a little bit without 500+ hours of questing every 6 months. They already done that 3 times.

And as a bonus, this would weed out a lot of RMT'ers as well, because people will get better gear without doing anything for it, so if they only have 5 hours to play per week, they will still be somewhat matched with more or less equal odds, thus generating more data.

I am sure BSG doesn't read all these posts, which is a shame, but i am happy to spend a few weeks finetuning such a procedure and work out what the pro's and cons are.

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GeneralBrus
On 6/6/2020 at 5:06 AM, SirBarnaby said:

I do mean pure RNG though. A reload that would take 3.5 to 4.5 seconds to finish, based on pure RNG. It would really change close combat, making it more believable.

because RNG is a nice thing and add for fair gameplay

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SirBarnaby
5 hours ago, GeneralBrus said:

because RNG is a nice thing and add for fair gameplay

The last thing that tarkov has is fairness. They want to implement advanced weapon jamming, which would largely make use of RNG.

The variable speed reloads would be a great addition to de cod-ify tarkov and to also bring some more realism to the table. In real life, reloading isn't as easy as the press of a button, and between the specific events that lead to a weapon being fully reloaded, a lot can go wrong.

We take reload speeds for granted and can plan accordingly to the exact seconds that the reload ends, were this a bit more random it could make us improvise new tactics and overall make the firefights more interesting.

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