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Backpacks, containers - rules and exceptions, and why it is a bit sucky.


SirBarnaby
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Okay, so - recently there was a "hotfix" for EFT that addressed the issue of being able to put certain containers into backpacks. Items such as thicc items- and weapons cases are now impossible to put into various bags. This made me think over the container system in general, and ways to improve it without adding exceptions to already well defined rules.

Good rulesets with minimal restrictions encourage player freedom and remove the suckyness that are artificial restrictions.  The problems these artificial restrictions fix bring more problems, and there are better ways to fix given ideas without bringing overly much exceptions to well defined rules. An artificial restriction would be something like an invisible wall. Sucks, dont it?

Dont forget though, there are artificial restrictions that allow for more freedom, and some that disallow freedom. Best gameplay would allow for the most freedom while keeping in the vision of the original game design.

I will be including the problems with some of the subsystems, and my proposed fixes to them that i personally am sure that everyone will like. But, as always, do express your opinion.

 

Exhibit A - Secure containers.

 

Problem: All the containers (backpacks, chest rigs, cases) have the ability to hold whatever item fits into given container. The secure container is an additional container with an artificial restriction that disables your ability to store various items, such as helmets, thermals, certain mounts and weapons.

My proposed fix: For helmets and certain mounts, these dont really need to have restrictions. They are safe to go. As for weapons and thermals, (and i think it is a planned feature,) an animation for when you take items out of a container that would preferrably last for quite a while could be beneficial. The point of keeping guns in containers was to hatchet run and when needed, quickly pull out a gun whenever you would need to down an enemy. If this took a long while, it would be disadvantageous to the person utilizing this technique, as the stunlock caused by the action would render you defenseless.

Same for thermals. A real disadvantage if it takes you 20secs to take it out and put it back into the container.

 

 

Exhibit B - LBT-2670 medical backpack.

 

Problem: A backpack the size of a berkut which can hold a grizzly fine, but apparently not a pistol. Nor some crackers. Not even some matches.

My proposed fix: What if you could hotkey the medical items from inside this specific backpack? Or maybe some other solution, like meds taking up less space but only in this backpack? Perhaps your allies could interact with your backpack and pull some meds out of it real quick?

The idea behind this backpack was that Nikita wanted tarkov's squad members to have specific roles, but this artificial restriction really isn't a way to go.

 

 

Exhibit C - 18.06.2020 hotfix to thicc items cases, the one i mentioned at the start.

 

Problem: An item's case would fit into a backpack just fine, given that the bag is large enough. The 6SH118 should be able to fit one.

My proposed fix: Rather than to outright add a restriction to insert these containers into various bags, maybe make the containers themselves larger, so that they dont fit into given bags? This would make a lot of sense given that the size of the larger containers is off comparatively to other items in the game at the given moment aswell. You could offset the size lost by giving these containers a bit more space. Maybe a row or two for each one.

A long mosin is about as long as the thicc items case ingame, supposedly one of the biggest lootables, and their length difference in reality would be huge! Plus, with this idea of a fix, the incentive to carry these cases would still be near zero, since they weigh so much you cant properly move even when they do fit into your backpack. A real win-win to player freedom and game design. Makes sense too, if you ask me.

I mean, you can carry a bloody tank battery in a berkut, but apparently not an items case. And these things dont even weigh realistically, no way a tank battery is only 40 kilos.

 

Tell me your opinions in the comments! I really do hope that the developers see this, this design seems like a no-brainer to me.

Edited by SirBarnaby
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17 hours ago, SirBarnaby said:

Exhibit C - 18.06.2020 hotfix to thicc items cases, the one i mentioned at the start.

In my understanding
This restriction was added, not to tamper with realism but to
combat things like cheaters, going into a raid with a THICC or ICASE, Filling it and extracting with it.
Junkboxes, Icases & THICC variants do not, and will never spawn in raids from this point onward.

There will be no reason in which said containers will need to be stored in a bag.
You will never have an instance where one spawns in a marked room or such.

This cases were never designed to be brought into a raid, Doing so, and filling them up prior to extracting was never a planned feature.

Nor, was bag stacking containers inside of containers to magically form extra space, Smaller game Editions have options to extend stash space in game via progression.

This change was always going to happen.
I hope you can understand this viewpoint 

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17 hours ago, SirBarnaby said:

Exhibit A - Secure containers.

 

Problem: All the containers (backpacks, chest rigs, cases) have the ability to hold whatever item fits into given container. The secure container is an additional container with an artificial restriction that disables your ability to store various items, such as helmets, thermals, certain mounts and weapons.

My proposed fix: For helmets and certain mounts, these dont really need to have restrictions. They are safe to go. As for weapons and thermals, (and i think it is a planned feature,) an animation for when you take items out of a container that would preferrably last for quite a while could be beneficial. The point of keeping guns in containers was to hatchet run and when needed, quickly pull out a gun whenever you would need to down an enemy. If this took a long while, it would be disadvantageous to the person utilizing this technique, as the stunlock caused by the action would render you defenseless.

'All the containers (backpacks, chest rigs, cases) have the ability to hold whatever item fits into given container.'
This is false. All containers do not have the ability to hold whatever fits inside them.
They once did. But restrictions where put in place for balancing purposes.

Mounts, for Thermals & NVGs are restricted on purpose for balancing purposes.
Clothing and protective equipment such as rigs and helmets are also disallowed for this purpose.

'The point of keeping guns in containers was to hatchet run and when needed, quickly pull out a gun whenever you would need to down an enemy' This used to be a thing, and it was the worst form of abuse throughout the history of the game.
The game is supposed to be hardcore, you don't get the option to bring weapons into the game, to hurt other players AND maintain a chance to store the weapon on your character before your death.
This 'Cheesy method' was never intended by the development team and was removed from the game quiet some time ago.
With or without a timer to remove/store items from the container, These changes are for the better.

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1 hour ago, walkr2 said:

In my understanding
This restriction was added, not to tamper with realism but to
combat things like cheaters, going into a raid with a THICC or ICASE, Filling it and extracting with it.[shortened text]

I dont think you get what i mean here. I don't promote bringing thicc items cases and the like into raids, the fix i proposed makes you unable to do these things AND in a way that would make a lot more sense, rather than just an invisible wall-esque text telling you "you are unable to do so". The weight of said thicc items cases should be de-incentivizing enough to make one logically not bring something like it into a raid.

You can limit players from doing such things without forcing them upon an invisible wall, and by my opinion, is a lot smarter way to do so.

Edited by SirBarnaby
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56 minutes ago, walkr2 said:

'All the containers (backpacks, chest rigs, cases) have the ability to hold whatever item fits into given container.'
This is false. All containers do not have the ability to hold whatever fits inside them.
They once did. But restrictions where put in place for balancing purposes. [shortened text]

This is true, i should have spelled it better. Junkboxes, medication boxes and the like do have item restrictions based on the type of case. I don't see an issue with this, since these items are only really used out-of-raid, where people expect them to only hold items based on the type of case.

I don't get what balancing purpose restricting clothing and helmets brings. I mean, who keeps helmets in their containers for cheesing purposes? I do agree now though that even if there was a timer, waiting it out would still be the only best option, and these timers can drown out the gameplay, so i came to an universal fix for such container mishaps.

Not being able to store your own gear in a container. That wouldn't include meds, but only "gear". You could keep a thermal you found in raid, but if you bring a thermal yourself you wouldn't be able to store it. Sounds simple enough to me while still preserving most of the player freedom, even if it does still bring a small exception to the rule.

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2 hours ago, SirBarnaby said:

I dont think you get what i mean here. I don't promote bringing thicc items cases and the like into raids, the fix i proposed makes you unable to do these things AND in a way that would make a lot more sense, rather than just an invisible wall-esque text telling you "you are unable to do so". The weight of said thicc items cases should be de-incentivizing enough to make one logically not bring something like it into a raid.

You can limit players from doing such things without forcing them upon an invisible wall, and by my opinion, is a lot smarter way to do so.

You cannot limit cheaters.
If the THICC case or other cases that are currently blocked where 300kgs.
Cheaters would still use them to farm, they would still speed hack, they would still fill the cases and extract.

The player-base as a whole, was never intended to bring these cases into a raid, regardless or skill.. risk.. or anything like that.

Helmets as a whole were restricted, id imagine due to the fact some of them can mount thermals. The rest of them no doubt were blocked for continuity.

Secure containers disallowing certain items, was a step in the right direction. If you find a thermal in raid, play like you've just found a piece of expensive equipment, and attempt to extract. Gamma-ing a reap-ir debunks the value of finding the item anyway.. whats the thrill of finding one.. if you can insta save it?

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1 hour ago, SirBarnaby said:

I don't get what balancing purpose restricting clothing and helmets brings. I mean, who keeps helmets in their containers for cheesing purposes? I do agree now though that even if there was a timer, waiting it out would still be the only best option, and these timers can drown out the gameplay, so i came to an universal fix for such container mishaps.

The balancing purpose is:
If you want to bring gear into raid, you bring it in.
You dont bring it in, via secure.. check around.. and decide if you want to use it or not..
You bring it in.. its in & its at risk.

The game shouldn't & doesn't want to offer such an option.
If you wear the expensive helmet into raid, its at risk of been taken from you,
Likewise with the gun/secure container thing you mentioned above.

Adding a timer, that allows you to store things.. is against this exact point,
Do you get what im trying to say?

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Restrictions are there for balancing the game. Yes, you could increase the icase to 10x10 - but it would lose it's purpose. I don't get why not allowing them in backpacks would be a problem.

 

Secure-Container restrictions are there to combat the absue regarding valuable scopes, small weappons, ...

Riggs were abused to increase size of the gamme to 10.

Storing helmets and vests in the container was another advantage too huge (compare to the smaller containers) which could not do it. Eg. for quests. 

 

"Exhibit B" sound interesting. But I have no knoledge about that backpack and why BSG did with it what they di.

 

Edited by TheHappyMile
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2 minutes ago, TheHappyMile said:

"Exhibit B" sound interesting. But I have no knowledge about that backpack and why BSG did with it what they did.

To the best of my knowledge,
The bag-pack was added.. to see how the community perceived it and to see if it was unitized as intended.
No doubt the end goal was more than likely to field the idea of players having specific roles..

But it was certainly questionable..
Why add it now..
& Why use the Med Bag to carry meds.. when i have cheaper alternatives.. with less restrictions.
The OP made a good suggestion, about the meds taking up less space when inside, which I liked

BSG always has a plan i suppose!

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3 minutes ago, walkr2 said:

The balancing purpose is:
If you want to bring gear into raid, you bring it in.
You dont bring it in, via secure.. check around.. and decide if you want to use it or not..
You bring it in.. its in & its at risk.

This is exactly the part where my suggestion came in, i hope you didnt skimp on reading that part. It's the part where it says that any "gear" you shouldnt be able to bring with you into a raid in a secure container. You can only take gear onto your character. But any gear that you find in raid is perfectly fine for the container.

11 minutes ago, walkr2 said:

You cannot limit cheaters.
If the THICC case or other cases that are currently blocked where 300kgs.
Cheaters would still use them to farm, they would still speed hack, they would still fill the cases and extract.

Cheating is a separate issue. In general we dont want to retard the gameplay just because of the issue of cheating. If the networking and client communications get overhauled in a way that speedhacking would no longer be possible, this wouldn't be a valid point anymore.

Take CS:GO for example. I dont think there are any speedhacks available for that game, even. It's all just bhop scripts. We just need some network code development.

13 minutes ago, walkr2 said:

Secure containers disallowing certain items, was a step in the right direction. If you find a thermal in raid, play like you've just found a piece of expensive equipment, and attempt to extract. Gamma-ing a reap-ir debunks the value of finding the item anyway.. whats the thrill of finding one.. if you can insta save it?

This decision should really be up to the player. The thrill of finding a bitcoin is that you can instantly gamma it for some quick cash, same principle in perfect should apply to the reap-ir aswell. And to be honest, the new FiR system already gives us that dynamic.

You can use the reap-ir on your gun instead of gammaing it so you have a higher chance extracting the raid - then you can sell it in the flea for extra money.

Or! You can instantly gamma it to secure half the flea market price. It's a really nice dynamic in my opinion.

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5 minutes ago, walkr2 said:

& Why use the Med Bag to carry meds.. when i have cheaper alternatives.. with less restrictions.
The OP made a good suggestion, about the meds taking up less space when inside, which I liked

The thing about exhibit B is that i can no longer edit my original post. Just after discussing this exact exhibit with a friend it became obvious that these medical backpacks aren't just ordinary backpacks that should have a 5x4 free space in them. These backpacks are all pockets. Check this video for clarification.

I propose a change to exhibit B, as in the entire backpack should be enlarged to something-something 9x4, but all of that 9x4 would be in increments of 2x1 or 1x1 (or something similar) pockets. Pockets like the paratus has. Maybe give this backpack some extra ability to be able to hotkey meds from inside the backpack to make it a tad more medically focused. But you should also be able to store loot in it.

If it is made out of 2x1 pockets, i dont see why a horse figurine wouldn't fit in it. It's all about removing these artificial limitations and making the looting make a lot more sense.

16 minutes ago, TheHappyMile said:

Restrictions are there for balancing the game. Yes, you could increase the icase to 10x10 - but it would lose it's purpose. I don't get why not allowing them in backpacks would be a problem.

Its that the size of the given containers just doesnt make sense right now. A thicc items case should be something similiar of 9x4 or something, just given its physical size. And no, i dont think it would lose its purpose in that case at all - just give it a row or two of extra space inside the container.

That will make it unable to be put into backpacks (atleast of current size that i know of) without breaking logic. Because in the current build, by the physical space that the case takes up inside of your inventory, you can perfectly fit it into a berkut. If we just increase the thicc items case's physical size it takes up in the inventory, we avoid the invisible wall issue while making the entire ordeal a lot more logical.

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7 hours ago, SirBarnaby said:

Its that the size of the given containers just doesnt make sense right now. A thicc items case should be something similiar of 9x4 or something, just given its physical size. And no, i dont think it would lose its purpose in that case at all - just give it a row or two of extra space inside the container.

That will make it unable to be put into backpacks (atleast of current size that i know of) without breaking logic. Because in the current build, by the physical space that the case takes up inside of your inventory, you can perfectly fit it into a berkut. If we just increase the thicc items case's physical size it takes up in the inventory, we avoid the invisible wall issue while making the entire ordeal a lot more logical.

The reason the case isnt 9x4, is because : 
Buying and / or earning one of these cases, is supposed to give the player additional space within the stash.
I understand you want it bigger, so it technically doesnt fit in a bag. But that would remove value from the case itself.
 

7 hours ago, SirBarnaby said:

The thing about exhibit B is that i can no longer edit my original post. Just after discussing this exact exhibit with a friend it became obvious that these medical backpacks aren't just ordinary backpacks that should have a 5x4 free space in them. These backpacks are all pockets. Check this video for clarification.

I propose a change to exhibit B, as in the entire backpack should be enlarged to something-something 9x4, but all of that 9x4 would be in increments of 2x1 or 1x1 (or something similar) pockets. Pockets like the paratus has. Maybe give this backpack some extra ability to be able to hotkey meds from inside the backpack to make it a tad more medically focused. But you should also be able to store loot in it.

If it is made out of 2x1 pockets, i dont see why a horse figurine wouldn't fit in it. It's all about removing these artificial limitations and making the looting make a lot more sense.

I do agree this Bag needs to be worked on,
I believe it was added, so that community feedback could be collected on it

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14 hours ago, walkr2 said:

The reason the case isnt 9x4, is because : 
Buying and / or earning one of these cases, is supposed to give the player additional space within the stash.
I understand you want it bigger, so it technically doesnt fit in a bag. But that would remove value from the case itself.

I've a feeling we have a miscommunication here. If we make it bigger, it wont lose its value as a space saver, since we will also make it bigger from the inside.

One or two rows or more space inside the thicc case, thenmake it 9x4 from the oustide and it will have nearly the exact same efficiency as a standard 5x3 smaller thicc.

Even if it still was 9x4 and we kept the insides the same size, it would still be a crazy effective space saving container.

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