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madrandomize

Suggestions from a bad gamer.

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madrandomize
Posted (edited)

This is my first post on these forums and I want to state that I am not a very good tarkov player, around 30 % survived, around 3 k/d (this includes AI).
And I want to share my experience playing since January/February 1-2 hours every 2 days.
This wipe was bad for me because of the lvl 10 flea market change and this is one of my problems.
Now I am lvl 11 and I am starting to enjoy the game. Slowly build my hideout,I can mod an AK or two and I can buy little better ammo that than what the trader sells.
I am suggesting to change the lvl 10 flea market to lvl 7 or 5.
It will not affect me in the end because I love the game and I will grind it anyway. It however affected my friends that I bought tarkov and unfortunately they did not make it to lvl 10 before quitting due to IRL commitments.
I literally purchased for 2 of my friends the game and they cannot spend the time needed to get to the market place to buy some ammo.
Next I want to address the "time to kill".It is either 1 second (for me to die) or if you get the drop in someone 3-5 seconds(for me to kill) of you are lucky and unload a whole magazine to some armors.Granted I use bad ammo till lvl 10 but a bullet is a bullet nonetheless (from a realistic perspective).
Yes I am having double standards here, because time to kill with a real weapon is (I imagine) pretty low. So my suggestion would be to either increase the time to kill by a few seconds for all or decrease the time to kill for all.It breaks immersion hitting someone 10 shots to the chest and doing 230 DMG with it absorbing 130 (happened to me to hit someone 10 successful shots to the chest with T bullets) only to one tap me through my paca armor when he turned around.

It may sound absurd but I LOVE THE FIR CHANGES !
I never used my secure 2x2 container for hoarding loot if I died anyway, and I find it more adrenaline pumping to have to survive to sell the found loot.

I also use the hideout more now to make items to sell for a small profit. Cables lamps salewas etc.

I hate though the quests,I find them lackluster and some are very difficult to achieve if you are solo. Things can be improved here very much.

Unfortunately I am noticing some cheaters in games more now, with the fir changes the prefer to kill everything on sight and extract than go for the loot only and good luck carrying something expensive to your backpack. I have died alone in shoreline inside a bush prone , in the middle of nowhere from a shot in the head between the eyes from "Quan_chi" (name is property of MIDWAY games tm) because I was carrying a labs card.
I also have died from invisible players with no sound or shots 5 times in reserve.
But really I can put up with everything, the only thing that was not enjoyable for me was the market change.
If I am not on the flea market, I can't buy ammo,I can't buy armor,I die in 1 hit, they don't die, and it is not stopping the hackers that will clear 3 maps from everything, get 15k exp from a single raid and get to lvl 10 in 40 minutes.
For the Chads out there, that say the market must be lvl 40 etc,      I was like you 10 years ago but then life happened.I was hardcore in quake 3, I was hardcore in MU and lineage 2.Was hardcore when cs was still a mod.I have 6 arcade machines I maintain and 3000 snes, mega drive, N64, PS1,2,3,4 games. But I got older damn it...
Let the rats have some good time and you can have yours too. Either way you need the casuals to prey on.

 

Edited by madrandomize
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SirBarnaby
25 minutes ago, madrandomize said:

This wipe was bad for me because of the lvl 10 flea market change and this is one of my problems.

I would like this to be changed aswell, so the overall game pacing would feel better without players having to just grind out lvl10.

I suggest moving the flea market to somewhere lvl8 instead - feels like a sweet-spot for me since this is the area where wipe start gear might start to get boring. Good time to introduce the flea market in my opinion.

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afgan_

I have said that right away... LVL10 flea and FIR will impact new players or people who don't have much time to grind the most. This is especially true considering there are no match making - as such is possible to get into your first raid with PM and run into lvl 60 CHAD with lvl 6 armour... that is ridiculous. Having somebody without Flea playing against somebody with Flea is just poor desing.

Game is already very difficult to understand for new players and these changes just makes it even harder. They do not impact experienced players and they still get Kappa in 2 weeks, but for somebody who cannot spend 90% of the time just playing one game.

As for TTK - I have analysed that in detail... in EFT there are simply do distinction between "death" and "incapacitation". To actually kill somebody should take very long time with exception of headshots, but people should be incapacitation/unable to fight after only few hits. Other way to look into the issue is lack of "stopping power" and OP "painkillers" - somebody on painkillers can just run like terminators as if dozen of bullets does not even slow them down.

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Ramshu

Another more reasonable way would be to remove the level requirement for the Flea Market and do a quest to unlock it.

This mission could be available from level 1 and could be something like selling / buying X Rubles to different sellers. The amount could be global, or what is the same, shared among all sellers, or an individual amount for each seller, that is, X to Prapor, X to Peacekeeper...

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TechoverMana

I think it should be the other way around, the flea market should be an end game thing, IMO unlocked with level 3 Intel center.

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RainmakerM4
10 minutes ago, TechoverMana said:

I think it should be the other way around, the flea market should be an end game thing, IMO unlocked with level 3 Intel center.

Good idea.

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Ramshu
2 hours ago, TechoverMana said:

I think it should be the other way around, the flea market should be an end game thing, IMO unlocked with level 3 Intel center.

This has two faces:
-The positive side is that it will force you to see and use almost all the content of the game, and unlock better things over time.

-But the other side of the coin, by "removing" the trade the game would lose part of its charm, in addition to increasing the difficulty exponentially, having to obtain absolutely everything by yourself. Think about it, not being able to buy the things you need for certain missions or hideout, progress in the game would be very very slow.
It would also completely unbalance it, giving players even more advantage with the EoD version. Imagine what it means for a person with a standard to get 4 raid batteries for the therapist's mission and 5 more for the hideout, when you can't fit one in the alpha container.
Many things in the game would break or stop making sense, including playing as scav to make money, or hideot crafting. For your proposal to be viable, it would be necessary to redo almost all the mechanics of the game.

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skyflashde
vor 3 Stunden schrieb TechoverMana:

I think it should be the other way around, the flea market should be an end game thing, IMO unlocked with level 3 Intel center.

Then you would have a bunch of no-life players dominating the entire Tarkov player population.

That's the dumbest idea I have ever heard. It's dumb from so many perspectives, I dont even have words for it.

It also would make the game worse in about all gameplay loops.

It would ruin the economy of the fleamarkt (which doesnt really matter though, as almost no one would have access to the fleamarket anyway) as high level players would not put normal items for sale in the fleamarket as they just dont care about money that much. So the fleamarket would be just labs key cards, bitcoins, moonshine, cases, ledx and thats like it.

Looting... bringing out loot is now only really useful if it is FiR and you can sell it on the Fleamarket. So without the fleamarket all players would lose a huge source of income, which means they need to bring even LESS gear into a raid to make up for the not existing reward of raids in which they die. We actually need to DECREASE the amount of money players lose when they die in a raid so that we INCREASE the gear that players bring into a raid and also INCREASE interaction with equipment and modding and DECREASE the hatchling problem.

Also the game would be totally imbalanced from level 1 to 40, instead of just being completely imbalanced from level 1-10, like it is now. So we take the absolutely horrible "new player" experience we have now and stretch it up to level 40, so we can be sure NO ONE wants to play this game.

It would completely go against all the needed changes for progression (as in: we need to make the game harder for high level players and slow down progression for high level players and increase progression for low level players)

Here, again, the two progression curves. One for a game that works, and one for Tarkov. Tarkov progression and game difficulty already is completely fucked up, now if you move the fleamarket to like level 40 (which btw. is a level most Tarkov players NEVER REACH, and the Intel center 3 is ALSO something most Tarkov players NEVER HAVE) then imagine how worse the fucked up curve THEN becomes.

NotTarkov.png.53353e57679abcdf7e81a5e5501731c8.png

TarkovDifficulty.png.ac439f945640b2a1e35c498ecabbe14a.png

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tobiassolem

These curves are right, and the main reason why the game is the best during "the first half" after a wipe. And why it slowly deteriorates toward the next wipe.

We have to understand though, that all the factors that increase the difficulty as the game progresses are not present yet.

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afgan_
55 minutes ago, tobiassolem said:

We have to understand though, that all the factors that increase the difficulty as the game progresses are not present yet.

Yes... like matchmaking is one of the key aspects. Meaning that low level/gear/solo players woudl play against similar players and 5 CHAD squads would meet similar squads.

So what you you said is absolutely right, however it seems that all recent major changes Devs have made were opposite - making it harder for newer lower level players and as you level-up it gets exponentially easier.

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tobiassolem
1 minute ago, afgan_ said:

Yes... like matchmaking is one of the key aspects. Meaning that low level/gear/solo players woudl play against similar players and 5 CHAD squads would meet similar squads.

Except this is a fantasy of yours, that is very unlikely to ever happen.

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afgan_

Perhaps, but that is why in any other game the difficulty curve somewhat matches the player level/skill. The only way to make it harder for good players is to match them with good players.

What could be the other solution... how you can make game harder for high level player if they play against low level players? 

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skyflashde
Posted (edited)
vor 6 Minuten schrieb afgan_:

Perhaps, but that is why in any other game the difficulty curve somewhat matches the player level/skill. The only way to make it harder for good players is to match them with good players.

What could be the other solution... how you can make game harder for high level player if they play against low level players? 

Easy.

You make some maps attractive for high level players and other maps for low level players.

You can even do it inside maps... have zones where high level players find stuff that they need, while low level players find stuff they need.

For example:

Low level quest locations are inside customs map. High level quests are on labs.

Low level loot for hideout, crafting, AKs, up to second best tier ammo and money are on shoreline (dollars, rubels, euro, bolts, wires, cpus) and abundant as hell. You find loot everywhere and have to choose what to take out.

High level loot (led-x, red rebels, cases) are on reserve and very rare. You have to SEARCH to actually find loot, but IF you find it its very expensive stuff.

Marked rooms only exist on reserve, labs and other high level maps.

Edited by skyflashde
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ShiroTenshi
16 minutes ago, afgan_ said:

What could be the other solution... how you can make game harder for high level player if they play against low level players? 

The already planned player progression tied to the main story quest of having to unlock raid maps by surviving and extracting previous ones. As such, you start with 1 map available as level 1 and as you progress you unlock more maps. The more you advance in this progression, the harder the maps become but also the quality of the loot found in them as well.

That is the plan, at least. I'm not saying it will fix the issue completely but it will have some effect on it, which will then serve to have a better understanding on what else could be changed to improve it further.

Something similar is planned with traders, as they will be tied to specific maps and must be unlocked before you can trade with them, meaning traders for the later maps will only be unlocked after some time playing.

 

As Nikita said:  Currently EFT is more of a sandbox. Gameplay experience does not represent what is planned for the final version.

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afgan_

@ShiroTenshi @skyflashde Both suggestion  would help somewhat, but there is major weakness in both - high level players could still go to low level areas or low level maps and just kill lower level players. Currently, such strategy would even be supported by multiple quests encouraging PVP.

So the only solution to work 100% is simply to make impossible for high/level gear players to be loaded into same session with low gear/level players.

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skyflashde
Gerade eben schrieb afgan_:

So the only solution to work 100% is simply to make impossible for high/level gear players to be loaded into same session with low gear/level players.

No that would be very bad.

You dont want that, you just want to severely decrease the interactions between low and high level players.

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ShiroTenshi
15 minutes ago, afgan_ said:

So the only solution to work 100% is simply to make impossible for high/level gear players to be loaded into same session with low gear/level players.

You are correct that it is a possibility, but level/gear/exp/money/stashvalue/time based matchmaking still won't be added, nor will any restrictions that will outright disallow or forcibly block people from engaging others.

Not knowing who, how many, how experienced and how geared your opponents may be is a core aspect of the game, and there are ways to tip the scale in your favor like, for example, going in as a group. Not only does this remove the number of possible enemy slots available for enemies, it will also make it so your group has increased chances of victory by possibly having bigger numbers. This also goes along with the fact that EFT is more group based. You can play and finish the game solo but it is going to be harder to do it.

Another thing that we know is planned, but don't know a lot of is the Karma system engaging PMCs from the same faction (And sometimes even other factions) will have negative consequences. How or what these consequences are is what we don't know anything about, but one way to dissuade more experienced players going to early raids to gank new players would be to have early raid maps have higher engagement restrictions that trigger the Karma system, while later ones such limitations are not present.

So basically, you give incentives for higher level players to play the later maps instead of the early ones, but don't block the ability outright as quests may require veteran players to return to an early raid map to complete quests. 

This won't solve the problem 100%, but honestly it's not an issue that needs permanent and complete solution.

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afgan_

Again - agree that both suggestions would improve the game. However, neither they fully fix the issue, nor they are likely to be quickly and easily implemented or easily balanced. Whereas matchmaking is actually quite simple logic - add score to overall gear, level and size of the group and match in similar score brackets. Easy to implement and will work 99% of the time.

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ShiroTenshi
36 minutes ago, afgan_ said:

Again - agree that both suggestions would improve the game. However, neither they fully fix the issue, nor they are likely to be quickly and easily implemented or easily balanced. Whereas matchmaking is actually quite simple logic - add score to overall gear, level and size of the group and match in similar score brackets. Easy to implement and will work 99% of the time.

It's not about if it works or how often it works. The DEVs do NOT want to, and will not, add it. As such, any and all solutions will have to take that into consideration. This is an answer we already have from the DEVs and to keep insisting on it while disregarding the DEVs decision is counterproductive and does not help in finding a way to make the issue better. 

I understand this is something you are passionate about. That is fine. But please understand the DEVs position on this. It's not the first time such a system has been suggested and discussed before. There's nothing new being said either, and the DEVs took all that into consideration and still decided to stick to the original plan of not adding complex matchmaking like that. Should the DEVs ever go back on their decision, we will announce it. However, until then, the decision has been made and we have to respect it.

No solution will ever be 100% perfect. What we can, and should, do is have multiple things in place each somewhat effective and working together.

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Ramshu

About creating a matchmaking based on level or equipment ... Honestly it seems to me rubbish.
1. The player's level has absolutely nothing to do with her ability. It may be that you simply spend more hours or just luck.
2. A very equipped player is risking more money to improve her chances of survival. If everyone who comes in has similar equipment, there is no point in taking that risk.

The issue at hand is that EFT is a difficult game, even fruitful, it is part of its charm. The post is about how to access the flea market and the initial learning curve (up to lvl 10 or 20). But to do this we must not sacrifice the essence of the game.
If we focus on the subject we will see that it is more that new players do not get frustrated with pvp, for this there are several ways, here I propose two: That new players have access to more efficient ammunition (eg flea market) or remove the best ammunition from vendors and can only be found in raid.

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afgan_

I am always struggling with players concept of "difficult"... EFT is not "difficult"... it is just unpredictable RNG lottery - sometimes it could be borigly "easy" because you run into lvl4 players with AKS-74 (the one you get from start) and find that they have water bottle and tushonka in their bag (not-FIR) and they are completely clueless about what happened and you just think "poor souls", yet next time you run into 3 man squad and after getting completely trashed and killing them you may think you can now go and heal a bit... no sir another 4 man squad just lands on your head and trashes entire place. 

It add no charm to the game, nor ir makes it more "difficult" - it just makes game frustrating... here I am not even going to start talking about all the issues with hit reg, de-syncs and all other amazing goodies of online PVP... which is just one other layer of frustration on the top...  

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BanditMaka

Wouldn't the game be better balanced around you after you have few wipes under your belt, rather than as a new player. If we make it easy enough for you now, what challenge will there be later?

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Starioshka
Quote

Next I want to address the "time to kill"

Not a thing in tarkov.

If you're not killing someone in 1 shot you're doing something wrong.

If you're getting shot at you messed up royally.

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TechoverMana
On 7/4/2020 at 7:02 AM, Ramshu said:

But the other side of the coin, by "removing" the trade the game would lose part of its charm, in addition to increasing the difficulty exponentially, having to obtain absolutely everything by yourself. Think about it, not being able to buy the things you need for certain missions or hideout, progress in the game would be very very slow.

Well, I've played for a very long time without the flea market, so I'm not exactly bothered by the fact it'd be gone for a large chunk of it. It wasn't around for a very long time, and people still got their quests done, although like you said, slower, and not as fast.

 

On 7/4/2020 at 7:02 AM, Ramshu said:

Imagine what it means for a person with a standard to get 4 raid batteries for the therapist's mission and 5 more for the hideout, when you can't fit one in the alpha container.

Again, don't have to imagine, I know, again, this game was going on for years before flea market, and frankly, I think it makes the game too easy in many ways, and pretty much undercuts the need for traders, which I think should be the primary means of going around, and flea market should be a luxury.

On 7/4/2020 at 7:02 AM, Ramshu said:

Many things in the game would break or stop making sense, including playing as scav to make money,

Again, people did this all the time, it was a common recommendation to make money was just try your luck at scav runs for free gear. If flea market disappeared, people who ran out of money would still turn to scav runs to maybe grab an AK and some basic armor and try to get some runs strung together again, or do several scav runs to build up a little nest of scav gear to work with. And with all the stashes and stuff now around, it wouldn't be impossible to get what you need for the hideout either, or to complete quests. Again, people hit level 40 and got quests done before flea market existed. You don't need it.

 

On 7/4/2020 at 7:47 AM, skyflashde said:

It also would make the game worse in about all gameplay loops.

I'd say the flea market has distorted the gameplay loops more than it's improved it when it's able to be accessed so early.
 

On 7/4/2020 at 7:47 AM, skyflashde said:

Looting... bringing out loot is now only really useful if it is FiR and you can sell it on the Fleamarket.

Or using it to craft your hideout, selling it to dealers for cash, barters (although I have issues with those too), reusing them, ect.
 

Honestly, I feel flea market has been a crutch for many, especially those who've never played Tarkov without it can't imagine not having it,  and refuse to see how the flea market frankly has caused more problems than its solved, warped how progression works and undercuts several of the games own features because it makes them unnecessary. There's no point to doing quests that unlock items if you can just go to the flea market and work around the traders. And from a realism perspective I don't think the flea market makes much sense either. Simply put, flea market is given way too early and for way too little work. Level 10 is pretty much nothing, it's like barely getting from beginner to intermediate, and it's not attached to any sort of quest or hideout unlock. That's why I think it should just be attached to the intel center. Tarkov is meant to be hardcore, and especially when it comes out and there's no more wipes, should be a real end game sort of goal to help QOL for someone who's put the time and effort in to get such a luxury boost, and especially since it's so impactful, just as getting the bitcoin farm or booze generator, and should be kept to that level of advanced play or development. That's why I still say it should be at the Level 3 Intel Center, you get that developed and have an advanced network to hook into a dark web trading thing for stuff, makes more sense, is more realistic IMO, and IMO also improves the game and has the players needing to engage more to maximize their benefits.
Game existed and was fine for years without flea market, people hit level 40, it's not something so necessary that it'll kill the game if people couldn't get it into their late 20s early 30s, in fact it'd make you have to experience a lot more of the content to get to those grand heights of luxury of something like that, improve the economy IMO, and overall benefit the game.
Flea market, karma, matchmaking, ect  most of these just seem more like things to make Tarkov easier, less harsh, and encourage unrealistic game mechanics and overall make the game to easy to just cruise on. I know perhaps I'm the minority opinion here, but there's already a lot of stuff that frankly I think already gives people way too much leeway, I still think they shouldn't have ever made the CMS or Surv12 kits, and painkillers shouldn't do anything but clear up your vision, and you should be forced prone if your legs get taken out, and need to crawl to an exit even, and most helmets, and nearly all facesheilds should do next to nothing against nearly any sort of rifle round.

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Kral

I think the game could do more to highlight that PVP isn't necessarily the right option every time. New players shouldn't be trying to go toe to toe with high level players running their best gear, they should be listening out for and avoiding those fights, while looking to pick off easier targets or just focusing on scavs and quests initially. With that approach the difficulty curve makes a lot more sense, your objectives are less ambitious and thus less risky, but as you progress you start to focus more on contesting high value spots and PVP, while running more and more expensive kits, which increases the difficulty of the game. More could also be done to make late-game more difficult, perhaps less reliable insurance.

I have a lot of hours in Tarkov and if I start a new account mid-wipe I still avoid PVP early on, I've seen streamers doing the same when starting hardcore accounts as they know they don't have the resources to deal with players yet.

I like that the flea market unlocks later, it gives players a chance to learn how to survive without it, rather than relying on it for everything. It also makes RMT less of an option as you can't just create a new account, buy some roubles and start running the best kits. If your friends quit because they didn't have access to it then I think it's likely they would've quit at some other point even if the flea unlocked earlier. If anything I think it should unlock later, the devs had the right idea when they set it to level 20 a while back.

One change I would like to see is a decrease in the gap between the best gear and the worst, I liked the balance before Gen4 was introduced where most players would run armor that could be beaten with mid/low tier ammo in a reasonable time frame, with the odd player running Fort and gaining a huge advantage as a result but taking a huge risk. I'm not convinced that making the very best tier super rare is going to work as a strategy because the flea market makes it easy to buy rare items, as a lot of players prefer to sell anything of value rather than use it.

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