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Snake-Plissken

Removable Mosin bolts to fix Mosin meta

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Snake-Plissken

The Mosin meta needs a fix. The problem right now is level 30-40+ players constantly bringing them to raids to try and 1 shot people with thorax shots so if they die they aren't losing anything too expensive but if they live and kill PMC's they can get huge returns on their investment. I've been seeing them in almost every raid now and it's getting out of hand. The reasons the Mosin meta is a problem are these.

  1. Newbies are getting stomped by high level players who are experienced and play with little regard for their own safety because the reward heavily outweighs the risk since they rarely have anything more than a Mosin and a few bullets in their pockets.
  2. Thick boys are wasting valuable high end ammo on Mosin men since armor piercing has less of an effect on them and if they don't spray them down immediately upon seeing them the Mosin men can  1 or 2 shot them.
  3.  The reward for killing a Mosin man is very low since the don't bring other gear and to take the Mosin you typically have to carry a heavy rifle that takes up 5 or 6 slots.

Here's the answer to this problem: Make it so the Mosin's bolt is counted as an attachment and make it the most expensive part of the rifle. Make the bolt a single slot item that you can take off a fallen Mosin man so it's viable to take from them every time you kill them. This way when the Mosin man gets their Mosin back with insurance it is disabled until they buy a new bolt which is most of the price of the rifle. If the Mosin is 50k right now but the bolt is 40k of that value and the bolt is gone then all the Mosin man gets back is 10k of his value and he's been deincentivized from trying to do Mosin only runs again.

It's realistic as well as all you have to do in real life to remove a Mosin bolt is pull the bolt back and hold down the trigger and it slides right out of the receiver so it perfectly goes along with the idea that only gun attachments that are quick and easy to add/remove can be altered in raid.

This way Mosins are still viable without making the ammo or the guns too expensive for players who use them normally.

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GhostZ69

So, you want to nerf stuff, make stuff MORE unrealistic to support a play style that should not even be in the game?  Just checking to see if I understand your stance on this.

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Snake-Plissken
2 minutes ago, GhostZ69 said:

So, you want to nerf stuff, make stuff MORE unrealistic to support a play style that should not even be in the game?  Just checking to see if I understand your stance on this.

I just want the Mosin meta toned down without completely nerfing the rifle/ammo. Typically when something is too good the devs have nerfed the damage the weapon does or increased the costs of running that weapon. I'm suggesting a fix that doesn't make the Mosin completely unappealing to players who aren't just using it for a late game glass canon build.

This way you can still run it at a reasonable price, you can still probably one shot a player in the thorax despite them having level 5 or 6 armor but the chances of you ever getting it back on insurance would pretty much be next to none. Also the guy who just had to dump thousands of rubles worth of ammo into the Mosin man to prevent getting 1 or 2 shotted won't be at a total net loss for not taking the entire rifle with him out of raid.

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ACuddlyBadger

Mosin Jaeger quests bro. No reason to run a Mosin over an SV98, DVL, or T5000

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PyroYoda

Let me guess you are a geard player that gets owned by Mosin players, and are complaining on here? Just like the rest? We had this before a bunch of "pro players" complaining to remove or nerf the Mosin.

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Snake-Plissken
18 minutes ago, PyroYoda said:

Let me guess you are a geard player that gets owned by Mosin players, and are complaining on here? Just like the rest? We had this before a bunch of "pro players" complaining to remove or nerf the Mosin.

I'm suggesting a fix to a problem, not trying to measure manhoods. I'm honestly pretty bad at this game. I still think players who survive against someone who can 1 shot kill them without needing a headshot despite even wearing the heaviest armor should get a reward that doesn't involve taking a huge amount of inventory space. I've heard Pestily and LVNDMARK complain about it too and I'm pretty sure they're pros.

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p30pl3h4t3m3

try it by yourself and then we can talk again about the mosin.

a repeating rifle in times of fullautolaserbeams going into an encounter ain't really fun, especially in late wipe, so it's fair if you 1 tap people, especially that doesn't always happen and you need 2 or even 3 hits often enough.

and if you take the mosin out of game, there isn't really much left for new / low / poor players to have a chance against geared juggernauts.

mosin quests also force you to play a lot with this rifle. and your chance to survive by using it ain't that high. so you don't use your high level armor, cause it would be inefficent.

if you get wrecked by mosin man so often, maybe it's not the fault of the weapon...

seriously, there are other cheap weapons that fear more than a mosin...

yes it's a deadly weapon in the right hands, but this also goes with most other guns.

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GhostZ69

Ok, so I am ALL for as much realism as we can get into the game.  I tired of the "Mosin" getting nerfed or this or that, because someone thinks they should be a walking juggernaut immune to the plebs.  At first I was like DUCK THIS IDEA.  However, in reading everything you have said I do not see a real problem with it.  Make the Bolt a single slot item that is worth about ~80% of the value of the Mosin.  This allows the guys that kill the mosin man to get a reward without having to take a 4-6 slot weapon out and punishes the mosin man for actually getting killed.  I like it.  +1

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Saws_n_Sins

Mosin was fine until BSG unintentionally made Mosin runners more deadly. You see they raised the price of LPS Gsh to like what, about 450 rubles. So why would anybody buy that ammo anymore when you could just spend a small amount more and just run SNB in your Mosin (SNB is like 500 rubles on market). BSG tried to make people use Mosin less by making the stock ammo for it prapor sell more expensive but in reality now everybody is just going to run SNB and 1 shot everything.

Other than that though I think the Mosin is fine how it is, it's a big bullet but now I'm just iffy of fighting them cause I figure all of them have SNB now. I'm down for making the bolts where you can remove them, that would make sense and it's super easy to do. Would also make it easier to change a normal Mosin into a sniper variant if you find a sniper bolt. All you need to do to remove a Mosin bolt is bolt it open, hold the trigger down and the bolt completely slides out of the gun. So makes sense that you should be able to do that in game, would like take like 1 second in real life to remove the bolt.

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BanditMaka

lol most of em are probably just tryna grind mosin quests for kappa. 😂

For real tho if not mosin it would be something else, @p30pl3h4t3m3 said it all.

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TechoverMana

Mosin isn't even cheap, it's 45-55k, it costs more than an SV98, all the AKs prapor sells outside of the silenced AKS. There's well over a dozen guns you can buy that are cheaper, and many of them I'd say are more effective depending on the ammo you put in them. You might have had a point back when the mosin was at like 15-20k rubles like when it first came out, but it's one of the pricier base weapons around, especially since they've made the ammo for it more expensive as well. It's not a cheap gun, and hasn't been for quite some time.

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Kral

The Mosin is a very cheap gun primarily because it vendors for so little so people rarely loot them. Once you've got your hands on a bunch of them you can pretty much just reuse them every day and even if you die every raid you'll get them all back in insurance. They offer a great way to bypass the whole risk/reward aspect of Tarkov as their effectiveness heavily outweighs the risk of using them. 

I'd like to see insurance become less effective depending on your level and the value of the gear insured. For example a level 1 would always get everything back but a level 40 running just a Mosin might only have a 20% chance of a return. It would increase the cost of running the cheapest of loadouts, encouraging people to bring better gear out, and add a decent late-game money sink. Lore wise it makes sense too as that fucker Prapor always takes the bullets from your mags before he returns them, so why wouldn't he skim a little from the top if he thinks he can get away with it?

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afgan_
7 hours ago, GhostZ69 said:

So, you want to nerf stuff, make stuff MORE unrealistic to support a play style that should not even be in the game?  Just checking to see if I understand your stance on this.

Feels to me like you attacking straw man here. 

I believe that exiting mosin meta is because of stupid Jaeger tasks (F**** you Jeager! - most grindy, disgusting and hated questline in game). And the reason why we see lvl 40 running naked is not because they want to get that juicy gear, but because playing with mosin sucks. They are running naked because they know they will die, so taking together good gear is pointless. How do I know... well I am on these quests now myself.

Regardless if you agree that mosin is OP or not, the suggestion is completely realistic, easy to implement and definitely makes game better. In short bolt in any bolt-action rifle is removable - you can simply pull it out with some sort of basic action (like trigger pull, button or latch) which requires no tools. It is no harder than removing magazine and in case of mosin definitely easier. Likewise the bolt is generally most expensive part of modern weapon rifles ~50% and then trigger group and barrel usually taking another 20% each. For mosin specifically IRL bolt is 90% of cost, because trigger group is extremely basic and barrels/furniture are not sophisticated either.

What is important is that this change does not require nerf or balancing of damage, nor price.. which I am always agaist - weapons damage must be realistic, the balancing should be done on availability or if that fail on price. And here is major issue with mosin for me - it is antique weapon which you should not be able to buy whenever you want, never mind that - IRL only 1/100 even functions and maybe 1/1000 can hit anything past 50m in with any accuracy. In tarkov it seems we have unlimited supply of brand new, fully functioning mosins! Mosin should be only found on SCAVs... maybe some weird barter with Jaeger and the quest prize + the mosin quest should be nerfed. As such overall difficulty of completing the quest will remain the same, because you not only going to need to kill with mosin in specific way, but as well to find the weapon first.

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LenzOA

this discussion again?

 

lets say they will "fix" the mosin as  you said, people will go for the next best thing and you will create a new thread to "fix" the new meta. the mosin has its advantages and disadvantages, i think its fine.

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p30pl3h4t3m3
vor einer Stunde schrieb afgan_:

And here is major issue with mosin for me - it is antique weapon which you should not be able to buy whenever you want, never mind that - IRL only 1/100 even functions and maybe 1/1000 can hit anything past 50m in with any accuracy. In tarkov it seems we have unlimited supply of brand new, fully functioning mosins! Mosin should be only found on SCAVs... maybe some weird barter with Jaeger and the quest prize + the mosin quest should be nerfed. As such overall difficulty of completing the quest will remain the same, because you not only going to need to kill with mosin in specific way, but as well to find the weapon first.

mosin is one of the most produced firearms in the world, around 37 millions. compare to that, m4 including m16/ar-15 only 13-16 millions and fal ~5-7 millions...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most-produced_firearms

want realism and limit all your fav. streamer weapons you try 2 copy so hard ?

so, just stop this "realism" bs, really just stop it. cause simo häyhä aka the white death would say mosin-nagant is a good weapon system...

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akr0nizz
Posted (edited)

I actually do not see any problems with mosin. They are affordable for everyone. Bullets are also cheap enough.
If you nerf the weapon that is cheap (less than 50k) and very efficient versus any players, the experienced PMCs will find another way to dominate newbies, while the newbies loose a valuable counter argument. 

Edited by akr0nizz

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afgan_
Posted (edited)
36 minutes ago, p30pl3h4t3m3 said:

mosin is one of the most produced firearms in the world, around 37 millions. compare to that, m4 including m16/ar-15 only 13-16 millions and fal ~5-7 millions...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most-produced_firearms

want realism and limit all your fav. streamer weapons you try 2 copy so hard ?

so, just stop this "realism" bs, really just stop it. cause simo häyhä aka the white death would say mosin-nagant is a good weapon system...

Produced in beween 1892 and ww2... very true. As well in 10000BC the most produced weapon was spear with stone tip... heck why we don't have those for hunting mammoths in EFT?!

http://www.mosinnagant.net/USSR/RussianSovietMosinNagantNumbers.asp

As well Simo Häyhä would have said that indeed... in ducking 1940s!.. when 1% opposing forces had at best rudimentary scopes and "ushankas" as the "protection". The remaining soldiers had weapons with MOA so high it wasn't even measured. In such conditions mosin was indeed powerful and accurate rifle. Further, Simo Häyhä is exceptional guy - literally 1 in tens of millions, don't even start pretending his achievements are common thing.

I never said that brand new mosin is inherently bad weapon (ignoring that as of WW2 it was already obsolete) - however one thing is the theoretical accuracy of the weapon system and completely different thing is finding such weapon in real life.

Edited by afgan_
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p30pl3h4t3m3
Posted (edited)

@afgan_

you started with this realistic bs. you would be surprised how much "antique" firearms are still in use in conflict zones.

lets say... syria.

glad internet is full of informations nobody really need 2 know.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_equipment_used_by_Syrian_opposition_forces

uhhh, mosin is listed... with a lot of other "antiques".

allright allright... let's see another "conflict". how about east ukraine ? sill ongoing conflict to this date.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_equipment_used_by_separatist_forces_of_the_war_in_Donbass

lot's of modern stuff, looks more like eft wiki list... but wait. oh no, mosin nagant is listed.

know what ?

you will find this weapon in nearly every conflict since ww2...

yeah it's rare in civilian and collectors hands as registered weapon. but most weapons aren't registered that are in use outside a shooting range...

and now we fight in a fictional russian region, the land where this weapons was produced and used for a long time and lot of granpas store her weapon after ww2.

if this game would play in the us, how many m1 garand i would find ?

Edited by p30pl3h4t3m3
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Snake-Plissken
16 hours ago, p30pl3h4t3m3 said:

@afgan_

you started with this realistic bs. you would be surprised how much "antique" firearms are still in use in conflict zones.

lets say... syria.

glad internet is full of informations nobody really need 2 know.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_equipment_used_by_Syrian_opposition_forces

uhhh, mosin is listed... with a lot of other "antiques".

allright allright... let's see another "conflict". how about east ukraine ? sill ongoing conflict to this date.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_equipment_used_by_separatist_forces_of_the_war_in_Donbass

lot's of modern stuff, looks more like eft wiki list... but wait. oh no, mosin nagant is listed.

know what ?

you will find this weapon in nearly every conflict since ww2...

yeah it's rare in civilian and collectors hands as registered weapon. but most weapons aren't registered that are in use outside a shooting range...

and now we fight in a fictional russian region, the land where this weapons was produced and used for a long time and lot of granpas store her weapon after ww2.

if this game would play in the us, how many m1 garand i would find ?

I got what is considered a decent middle of the pack Mosin in America for $150 and it is of, and let me emphasize this, POOR quality. It barely shoots straight, the action is not by any means smooth, the trigger is awful and even the serial number isn't even put on the gun properly. If I didn't have to jump through a ton of hoops to make it legal I would definitely Obrez it.

That's because it, and most Mosins like it were mass produced during WW2 and poo out of factories into the hands of people as fast as possible. The gun Simo Häyhä would have used is worlds apart from the gun widely available today and I can tell just by looking at it the Mosin in this game is definitely not a Finish Mosin which is arguably the best quality you can get. Look up Finish Mosin and you will see what I'm talking about. When they got their hands on Mosins they replaced the bolts and barrels on each one because of how bad they were.

You're lucky to get a Mosin that was suspended in cosmoline most of it's life like I did and it is still of dubious quality for the reasons I listed above but even the ones stored properly like I have you are likely to get ones made with shoddy craftsmanship, barrels that were shot out during the wars, serial numbers that don't match, ect... What you're talking about are Mosins that have sat in civilian hands as a registered weapon which would be even worse quality due to probably getting frequent use or being mishandled for decades. The Mosins that run perfectly in this game are practically unicorns in the real world.

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King_Alf

There's zero reason to nerf the mosin; period.  Low levels don't have really any options to play against even mid-wipe players but the mosin with some trader ammo can actually take down a player.

The issue they contend with is though, it's slow as hell between shots, low players cannot get scopes, the ergo isn't good, it doesn't use mags and needs to be fed bullets, and basically if you don't see the other player first, and then hit your shot, you're probably not going to survive the bullet spray you're about to get.  If you ran into a group, forget it.

It's one of the few instances in the game where playing correctly/carefully/skillfully will result in a kill for the mosin user, even against players with lots of money.

So yes, the situation you describe(which I've almost never seen outside high levels running mosin quests) is kindof like a low risk/high reward one; but when it requires actual skill and tact to pull off successfully, that's totally fine.  Simply put, it's not an easy button.

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afgan_

@p30pl3h4t3m3 - weapons listed for conflicts are literally just that, they neither indicate the number, nor how useful it is. As such if you have local farmer who joined the forces or ISIS fighter who found it in basement - it is technically used in that conflict. I agree - in share numbers Mosins are still plentiful, in terms of actually "useable" (even if we stretch the meaning of it) weapon... there weapons no longer exist.

As you have mentioned Finnish Mosins... first of all what Simo Häyhä used was SAKO M/28-30 rifle, which was completely rebuilt rifle, with only modified/refurbished mosin bolt and receiver. The rifle had completely new sights, stock and barrel - made to much higher standard. Even in 1920's Finnish (and the rest of the world) considered Mosin as obsolete weapon, and only due to financial difficulties Finnish decided to rebuild Mosins to acceptable standards rather than developing new weapon. In summary by end of WW1 it was already obsolete, by end of WW2 it was definitely no longer serviceable.

And you talking about Mosin being available... even original AK47 is rare find in working order, the only problem is that people just generally regard all AKs as AK47s, not matter if it is AKM, 74 or 103... they all called AK47s :D Yet again thing like original 47 is now extremely rare.

@King_Alf - I disagree... the problem is that you don't need much skill to use Mosin... what you need is luck! The whole killing or being killed with mosin thing is luck or the lack of it. In short when one does stupid Jaeger quests, they simply take Mosin and gamble.. there is basically chance when shooting that that you will get 50/50 chance of kill (or maybe 30/70)... if you play long enough this means in shots 100 raids you may have killed 50 people. Again ot because of the skill, just pure luck....

If you missed the shot or if they tanked it, then you are most likely to die. Same from other side - if you survived first hit from the bush somewhere or the mosin guy simply missed, then you likely survived. This is just so common occurrence that you just run woods and suddenly... bam you lost your stomach or hand, spray naked mosinling in the bush and just swear "ducking mosinling just blacked out my stomac or tron off the hand".. other times you just die instantly. Is not a viable consistent weapon system, but it is glass cannon with very real 1-shot probability and overall it is based just on the luck - not something which is realistic or adds immersion in the game 

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King_Alf

@afgan_I guess we're going to have to disagree then.  From my view, a bolt-action, super-loud, large-caliber top-loading slow-ass long rifle is the height of skill to use.  You either get it right or you're probably dead.  You have to think about and make each shot count rather than hold the shoot button and point.  I can say for 100% certainty that the huge majority of my mosin kills are not "luck", but careful sneaking and being aware of player movements and habits.  If I have a mosin, I'm looking to shoot you in the back, not engage you.

It's a sniper tool, not a short engagement weapon.  That's literally how it's supposed to work.  I guess you think you should be able to tank sniper rounds and again, I just can't agree.  Making it more expensive to use is just another needless punishment against low level players in a game that starts hard and actually gets easier as you progress we don't need more of that.

To be frank, it's a game where you're going to die a lot, and usually, death just isn't "fair".  I honestly think it's a bigger problem that most of the other rounds available to low players are so ineffective.

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afgan_

@King_Alf I cannot see any skill in just lying in the bush waiting for somebody to pass and then just hoping you can oneshot them (and hoping that nobody will bring termal into the game). As I said, the only hope with mosin is that they die from single shot... if you missed or if they don't die from one shot... it is very likely they will kill you. I mean in rare occasions if you well hidden in the bush, then they may not find you and you may have second shot.. which may be enough.

I guess in this regard that is realistic, playing with mosin places you in massive disadvantage and making you play like proper bush monsters - it is nasty. 

I don't think I should be able to tank any bullet, nevermind 7.62x54r and that is one os the main issues for me. Sometimes you see mosiling first, hit them few times, but then they just do 360 and lucky shot you.. which should not be possible for multiple reasons... one - nobody should be able to aim after taking few hits... and two - nobody should be able to hit from the hip with antique weapon when flicking 360 from 100m .

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King_Alf

I hate to break it to you, but this game is not going to get rid of the bush wookies any time soon, and for reference, I've been killed by way more other guns shot from bushes than mosins.  As in real life, if someone gets the jump on you and you don't know they're there next to you, you're almost certainly going to have a bad time regardless what he's got pointed at you.

All that said, I think it's weird how bushes don't have any collision applied to them, you can sit in the middle of them, move through them without any visual indicator, lay down flat inside a bush... None of that makes sense... There should be a part of the bush that you can't just walk through or sit in, and the bush should also be visibly "disturbed" by the person occupying it's physical space.  If my buddy goes outside and jumps in a hedge, he's going to look like an idiot sitting on a bush awkwardly rather than blend into the middle of the bush with no indication he's there.

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PardTheTroll
vor 32 Minuten schrieb afgan_:

I cannot see any skill in just lying in the bush waiting for somebody to pass and then just hoping you can oneshot them

I´d say it takes two skills. Patience and aim. Pretty sure no one sits for even half the raid time on the same spot. I like to ambush people, but you can only ambush someone, if you know where he will be. Not possible by randomly sitting in a bush. Sure, one might bring up Resorts for example. Camp in a room and wait for someone to come. Not sure how successful that would end. Too many ways to traverse/escape. But that is just my opinion. 🙃

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