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Bjason1

Constant armor nerfing

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Bjason1

As ammo is continually buffed every few days, armor is getting nerfed.  It's almost pointless to wear anything less than level 5 armor.  Meaning the barrier to entry to even learn to play against players is 150k+ on armor.  So, if you die 3 times, most new players are going to be doing scav runs for a few days before they can even try again.

Why make a whole tiered system of armor if only the final 2 tiers is viable?

Why not just ditch half the ammo in the game and everything but level 5 and 6 armor?  It would get rid of massive clutter and would have literally 0 effect on gameplay.  We don't need a bunch of fluff items.

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HijackDallas

In the end, they make an overhaul for all armors, so even tier 5+6 armor will become useless.

Because smgs an shotguns are after that more valuable. 

 

Right now, the armor protect the areas of a body even, if there´s no armor

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oldschool15
Posted (edited)

I know this is anecdotal, but I have so many examples of this. I literally hit a guy 8 times with 7.62x39 bp, meanwhile during the fight i get shot 4 times having a blacked out arm and leg (I should have been out of the fight, wasnt wearing armor). After hiding for a while, cms limbs, healing up, and packing mags went back to see if he was dead. Nah he was still there, and took a shot at me. I just ran off, ditching my pack strait to hole in fence. (9min 20sec runthrough, sadness)... Another game running 5.45 7n39, i had 4 kills and 42 hits on target, seriously (I killed everything I shot at). Those are just the two that stick out in my mind from last night

 

I in no way think armor needs buffed or ammo needs nerfed, i have no interest in playing the division or halo. If your caught out of position it shouldnt take many hits to put you out of the fight permanently. I hear streamers saying the ttk is to short, and they want to be able to make up for mistakes with skill. The skill of this "realistic" game should be not being seen, being in position, not out chading everyone on the map

Now reduction in the size of the head hit box, thats a change i could go for

Edited by oldschool15
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TechoverMana

Helmets and face shields are already way, way more protective than they've ever had any right to be compared to how they are IRL. Most helmets are really only meant for fragments, and maybe a pistol round directly (ricochet is always a possibility, IRL even people's skulls have occasionally had a rifle round bounce off instead of punching through at the right angle), but almost all rifle rounds would treat them as little more than paper.

The part about the plates and having their own hitboxes is true as well, only the ESAPI plate or whatever the equivalent is in russian armor would provide the top level of protection, and the 'soft' areas only usually rate up to 3A, good against pistols and buckshot. Problem is, is that even with the hit zones or whatever, those vests should pretty much totally defeat any pistol and shotgun rounds, but BSG will find a way, even if they've just got to make things up about a particular round, or it's performance, to try to reach some sort of magical parity between weapons that simply doesn't exist IRL. But hearing more and more what comes out from BSG or Nikita, it sounds more like they've just dropped it in favor of whatever actual paradigm they're pursuing.

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RainmakerM4

I need alllllllllllllllllllllllllll those items and then some

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ACuddlyBadger

Armor and damage needs a reconstruction imo.

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GymTime
2 hours ago, ACuddlyBadger said:

Armor and damage needs a reconstruction imo.

100% agree

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chrisragnar
10 hours ago, TechoverMana said:

Helmets and face shields are already way, way more protective than they've ever had any right to be compared to how they are IRL. Most helmets are really only meant for fragments, and maybe a pistol round directly (ricochet is always a possibility, IRL even people's skulls have occasionally had a rifle round bounce off instead of punching through at the right angle), but almost all rifle rounds would treat them as little more than paper.

The part about the plates and having their own hitboxes is true as well, only the ESAPI plate or whatever the equivalent is in russian armor would provide the top level of protection, and the 'soft' areas only usually rate up to 3A, good against pistols and buckshot. Problem is, is that even with the hit zones or whatever, those vests should pretty much totally defeat any pistol and shotgun rounds, but BSG will find a way, even if they've just got to make things up about a particular round, or it's performance, to try to reach some sort of magical parity between weapons that simply doesn't exist IRL. But hearing more and more what comes out from BSG or Nikita, it sounds more like they've just dropped it in favor of whatever actual paradigm they're pursuing.

I'd say helmets are usually just so you don't get knocked out by falling or flying debris from explosions, irl. In game, I don't mind them protecting from lower caliber. But if they are going to stick with having limb DMG pretty much useless I'd at least like one leathal body part accessable with most ammo.

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chrisragnar

I think limb DMG is a major issue, and most of it stem from painkillers magically instantly and fully negating any effekt of blacked limbs. I would never unironically try to kill someone with a pistol caliber, maby If you had full lvl 6 armor you could kill someone by shooting their limbs with pistol caliber. But anything less than lvl 6 and they will one shot you while you need to reload at least once. And they won't get slowed by black legs, no dizzy or shakes from black arms? Make pills alot worse by forcing painkillers to be taken after DMG is suffered and having a delayed effect, and morphin alot more expensive but instant effect. 

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TechoverMana
1 hour ago, chrisragnar said:

In game, I don't mind them protecting from lower caliber.

I think most helmets from the last few decades, PAGST, MICH, ECH are rated at NIJ level 3A, where it's good up to .44 magnum.

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TheHappyMile
Posted (edited)

Ammo should be way harder to obtain by eighter finding it in-raid or crafting. if traders only sell mediocre ammo, class 3/4 could become useful again in the majority of encounters, while a fe AP-rounds in the mag can still to wonderful things

Edited by TheHappyMile
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AlphaPhiAlpha

I think before going over a whole rework of ammo/armor/penetration they amount of available good ammo/piercing rounds should be reduced. Just make it FiR or craftable (consuming either very expensive stuff or having to barter items from traders first every time, which are limited to a certain amount (shells or whatever)). That would give lower tier armors and lower tear ammo a spot. 

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Kthelmir
Posted (edited)

There is no good way of fixing this. Warfare will always be a armsrace. If you restrict ammo types too much all armor will become too strong and restricting armor too much will reduce the TTK even further.

All i can say is play economically feasible loadouts. Always ask yourself, "will these extra 200k in attachments, 50k more for that lvl 4 helmet or 250k for that lvl 5+ armor really increase my chances to a degree that warrants me losing all that money?"

I have about the same results using "low tier" equipment, that i have using "high tier" equipment. My SR is around ~50% most of the time playing solo.

How you play and when you act has way more influence on whats happening than what toys you bring.

Edited by Kthelmir

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Goldarv

Yeah I spent 150k on the new lvl 5 chest rig to try it out just to get 1 tapped by a mosin in the chest. I don't honestly think it's so much as the armor being or not being effective, I believe it is the price. If you spent 80k for top tier armor and a lucky newbie got a off a good shot it wouldn't be as bad as spending 150-300k. Just my 2 cents

And another note, I find spending 20-50k upgrading an ak-74 that I extracted with off of a scav more of an investment than buying any armor.

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Blaat112
1 minute ago, Goldarv said:

Yeah I spent 150k on the new lvl 5 chest rig to try it out just to get 1 tapped by a mosin in the chest. I don't honestly think it's so much as the armor being or not being effective, I believe it is the price. If you spent 80k for top tier armor and a lucky newbie got a off a good shot it wouldn't be as bad as spending 150-300k. Just my 2 cents

If everything is cheap, the whole game would be different.

Part of the game is taking the gamble to bring in gear. If you remove the gamble part or make it alot smaller (or cheaper if you will) the feeling of achievement would be alot smaller too.

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Kthelmir
Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Blaat112 said:

If everything is cheap, the whole game would be different.

Part of the game is taking the gamble to bring in gear. If you remove the gamble part or make it alot smaller (or cheaper if you will) the feeling of achievement would be alot smaller too.

Please explain to me how achieved you feel when i onetap you out of your lvl 6 armor with a bullet that cost me less then 1% of your total equipment value.

Price balancing is a good step in the right direction but keep in mind what i said earlier. 

Edited by Kthelmir

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Blaat112
1 minute ago, Kthelmir said:

Please explain to me how achieved you feel when i onetap you out of your lvl 6 armor with a bullet that cost me less then 1% of your total equipment value.

If you dont understand how risk and reward systems work I suggest you look it up.

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Kthelmir
2 minutes ago, Blaat112 said:

If you dont understand how risk and reward systems work I suggest you look it up.

I do. Do you however ? 

If you run expensive gear, all you do is increase the risk and reduce the possible payout. Especially if i take you down with a 7,62x39BP round from a barely modded SKS from half way across the map with next to no risk of being detected. But please explain to me how risk and reward works, i am dying to learn new things every day.

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Blaat112
10 minutes ago, Kthelmir said:

I do. Do you however ? 

If you run expensive gear, all you do is increase the risk and reduce the possible payout. Especially if i take you down with a 7,62x39BP round from a barely modded SKS from half way across the map with next to no risk of being detected. But please explain to me how risk and reward works, i am dying to learn new things every day.

So what you are saying is you want this game to be more like Call of Duty? Armor shouldnt cost anything. Sence of risk should be at a minimum. Got it.

I dont know if i want that. But you are entitled to your opinion.

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Kthelmir
1 minute ago, Blaat112 said:

So what you are saying is you want this game to be more like Call of Duty? Armor shouldnt cost anything. Sence of risk should be at a minimum. Got it.

I dont know if i want that. But you are entitled to your opinion.

Don't see me saying that anywhere but you are entitled to your halucinations.
My entire point was that playing economically smart is the way to go. Expensive gear is not a guarantee and most certainly is not worth the risk. 

The more you invest the less your payout is, especially if you die. The less your gear costs the faster you make a profit that you can reinvest.

How this translates into "CoD great, hurr durr." is beyound me but hey good talk.

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Goldarv
Posted (edited)

Don't think he is saying that, believe he has got my point on balancing it. The point is armor 9 out of 10 times it is better not to be bought due to price. Armor doesn't matter when you have map knowledge and patience, but having a little price balancing (not CoD cheap) won't hurt the game.

Edited by Goldarv

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oldschool15
Posted (edited)

why not just increase the recoil of all the guns? especially on full auto and hip firing

this wouldnt solve the mosin problem, but i really dont think its a problem if mosin man misses he should be dead or you should be in cover, if not thats on you

Edited by oldschool15
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Bjason1
Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Kthelmir said:

Don't see me saying that anywhere but you are entitled to your halucinations.
My entire point was that playing economically smart is the way to go. Expensive gear is not a guarantee and most certainly is not worth the risk. 

The more you invest the less your payout is, especially if you die. The less your gear costs the faster you make a profit that you can reinvest.

How this translates into "CoD great, hurr durr." is beyound me but hey good talk.

Dude literally what you're saying is the correct way to play this game is using cheap loadouts.  Then why have expensive gear at all if it doesn't help and just reduces your earnings?  Just fluff?  Stuff to make your guy look cool?  I think you need to get off your knees and pull BSG's rectum away from your face so you can take a breath and think about the mechanics of the game and risk vs reward and how earning potential should work.

Edited by Bjason1

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KiloNein

Doing ammo buffs while there's a serious issue in the background with either hitreg, ammo, or armor, is completely idiotic.

You had the BS and Igolnik issue earlier, but I think that's only part of it.

Something is wrong this wipe with ammo and armor. I've been one shot with buckshot in the thorax wearing a level 4 vest before. I've been one shot in limbs and die, and I've gotten one shot in the head with a zsh and faceshield by 5.45 PS.

Something is seriously wrong, and instead of diving into it and fixing it, we're getting half ass, broken, and misguided "fixes" to the game.

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Bjason1
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, KiloNein said:

Doing ammo buffs while there's a serious issue in the background with either hitreg, ammo, or armor, is completely idiotic.

You had the BS and Igolnik issue earlier, but I think that's only part of it.

Something is wrong this wipe with ammo and armor. I've been one shot with buckshot in the thorax wearing a level 4 vest before. I've been one shot in limbs and die, and I've gotten one shot in the head with a zsh and faceshield by 5.45 PS.

Something is seriously wrong, and instead of diving into it and fixing it, we're getting half ass, broken, and misguided "fixes" to the game.

Spot on man.  I think something is messed up.  It's more than damage calculation, its collider / trigger registration since there are multiple meshes placed on top of one an other.  I was a Unity developer for quite some time and that's my best guess.  I obviously can't tell you their solution for layering or replacing colliders, and if they are using meshes or boxes or what, but however way you slice it, it's a complicated issue.  Believe it or not, it can be difficult to get good collider / trigger registration even on standard meshes (square, cylinder, sphere, etc.) in Unity, and worse with the more complicated armor meshes they are using.

There's a lot they have to fiddle with and its just super difficult to test.  There's a few different methods for checking the collider / trigger registration built into unity.  I have run into this issue myself creating colliders for space ships in a 3d game, and having trouble getting registrations on the shields and such when those colliders were layered.  You can fix a collider to a transform, but sometimes they "fall off" or dislodge themselves from the transform when there is a lot of processing.

It also depends if they are using colliders (which require a rigidbody) vs a trigger which do not.  They may be using rigidbody colliders because that makes sense if they want the bullet to have a chance to pass through the armor, but it's actually better to use a trigger, destroy the bullet gameobject, then do a function to check pass through damage and apply it to the player, instead of letting the bullet pass through then attempt another collision on the player to apply damage.

Edited by Bjason1

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