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How to make tarkov realistic again

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TacticalBazza
Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, GymTime said:

Why do so many have such an aversion to the word realism in games?

Nothing wrong with some realism. I don't want everything to be 100% realistic, but right now the combat is FAR from realistic in any regard.

We already have tons of arcade FPS shooters. Why can't we have one with elements of realism that isn't a milsim?

Because 'realism' as an argument holds no water, it's whipped out whenever it's convenient to justify whatever the person using it wants. Unfortunately 'realism' doesn't create an enjoyable game, simply because things that are hard in real life like carrying a load of weight, accurately shooting a gun, etc. are transferred to simple M+K input so when you make the game 'realistic' you are, by necessity, making it easier, due to the low movement speed necessary for it to be 'realistic', and also incentivise everyone playing like a pussy because you die in 1 bullet. It's not good design-wise.
 

Personally the aspect of EFT that appeals to me is the integration of MMO-like mechanics regarding progression and varied PvE objectives combined with the risk of losing your gear, in a PvP space. Unfortunately the FPS gameplay, the way that players actually interact with each other, sucks ass, because of the obsession with 'realism'.

Make all player characters move 10% faster and have 200% health and this game might be satisfying. Peeking out of a bush and getting a kill because you shot someone once who didn't even see you before they died isn't satisfying, and dying to it is frustrating.

Edited by TacticalBazza
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GymTime
Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, TacticalBazza said:

Because 'realism' as an argument holds no water, it's whipped out whenever it's convenient to justify whatever the person using it wants. Unfortunately 'realism' doesn't create an enjoyable game, simply because things that are hard in real life like carrying a load of weight, accurately shooting a gun, etc. are transferred to simple M+K input so when you make the game 'realistic' you are, by necessity, making it easier, due to the low movement speed necessary for it to be 'realistic', and also incentivise everyone playing like a pussy because you die in 1 bullet. It's not good design-wise.
 

Personally the aspect of EFT that appeals to me is the integration of MMO-like mechanics regarding progression and varied PvE objectives combined with the risk of losing your gear, in a PvP space. Unfortunately the FPS gameplay, the way that players actually interact with each other, sucks ass, because of the obsession with 'realism'.

Make all player characters move 10% faster and have 200% health and this game might be satisfying. Peeking out of a bush and getting a kill because you shot someone once who didn't even see you before they died isn't satisfying, and dying to it is frustrating.

See, you see it as black and white

There can't be some realistic elements. It has to be all or nothing.

I also disagree with increasing health by 200% and movement by 10%. There would be ZERO fear or immersion in this game. You could just run around mindlessly out in the open and wait until someone shoots you. Would get boring fast. Already so many other high TTK, fast paced FPS games out there.

Edited by GymTime

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ACuddlyBadger
26 minutes ago, TacticalBazza said:

Stop trying to design games based on realism, you suck all the fun out of the game. This game is already poor in the fun:time department already, the movement is clunky, the gunplay is unsatisfying and almost entirely decided by who sees who first, movement is slow, etc. The core concept of the game as an MMOFPS with persistent characters/loot and providing players with varied PvE objectives in PvP areas is good but 'realism' obsessed autists like yourself think it's a good way to design the game when it just makes it unenjoyable.

This game would be 100x as fun if everyone had double the healthbars they currently do so the gunplay (currently the weakest, least enjoyable part of the game) was actually fun to partake in. At the moment because of how frail the player is, the best strategy a lot of the time is to sit in a bush and not even play the damn game, just wait for someone to walk into your field of view then kill them in 1 shot with no recourse. Unsatisfying for the killer, and obviously unsatisfying for the victim. 

Of course that won't happen because all you realism autists would cry about it though. But it would improve the actual gameplay a hundred fold.

Put the game down Timmy, and come back to it once you've matured past breastfeeding. Berating other people as autists for wanting to have their own game is immature, condescending, and woefully naive when you have dozens of games in your taste for you to enjoy. 

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TacticalBazza
5 minutes ago, GymTime said:

See, you see it as black and white

There can't be some realistic elements. It has to be all or nothing.

I also disagree with increasing health by 200% and movement by 10%. There would be ZERO fear or immersion in this game. You could just run around mindlessly out in the open and wait until someone shoots you. Would get boring fast. Already so many other high TTK, fast paced FPS games out there.

If you want the game to be 'hardcore' surely that means the more highly skilled player wins. As it currently stands the actual mechanical skill in this game is very low due to the slow movement and instakill health bars. Doesn't seem very hardcore to me.

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oldschool15

full auto 60 round lazer beams while AD straffing, hoped up on golden star balm(so your fractured fibula is fine) seem arcadey to me

Increase recoil massively, make postioning matter more (add player momentum), make grenades more dangerous than a fire cracker, nerf some of the pain meds

Im on the realistic side of things, however i realize its a simulation. There are things to make the game playable that are part of the simulating part. Perfect example is surgical kits, great for simulation not realistic at all

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GymTime
55 minutes ago, TacticalBazza said:

If you want the game to be 'hardcore' surely that means the more highly skilled player wins. As it currently stands the actual mechanical skill in this game is very low due to the slow movement and instakill health bars. Doesn't seem very hardcore to me.

That's your own definition. You are assuming the TTK should be high so that only the player who can land the most shots wins.

Hardcore can also mean careful movement, listening to sounds, not always engaging an enemy, etc.

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TacticalBazza
1 minute ago, GymTime said:

That's your own definition. You are assuming the TTK should be high so that only the player who can land the most shots wins.

Hardcore can also mean careful movement, listening to sounds, not always engaging an enemy, etc.

It's an FPS game, of course the player who can land the most shots should win, that's the core aspect of interaction between players. Otherwise you end up with the current mess of incentivising people to sit in a bush and wait for 20 minutes, because if you don't do that you'll die to the other guy who is. A test of patience to see who can be afk-but-not-afk for the longest isn't exactly compelling gameplay and it's not 'hardcore' if it allows casuals to easily kill superior players by sitting still in a bush only to peek out and land one shot.

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GymTime
Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, TacticalBazza said:

It's an FPS game, of course the player who can land the most shots should win, that's the core aspect of interaction between players. Otherwise you end up with the current mess of incentivising people to sit in a bush and wait for 20 minutes, because if you don't do that you'll die to the other guy who is. A test of patience to see who can be afk-but-not-afk for the longest isn't exactly compelling gameplay and it's not 'hardcore' if it allows casuals to easily kill superior players by sitting still in a bush only to peek out and land one shot.

What I'm saying is with faster movement and a 200% health increase, there is less or no emphasis on what I mention and it all comes down to who can land the most/best shots.

You get both players rapidly strafing and spraying each other and the one who can land the most shots wins.

That is what all combat will boil down to

There will be no fear or pressure in the game. I can easily just sprint around out in the open, wait until someone shoots me (because it will take an entire mag to kill me) and then do some bunny hopping and strafing and try and land the most shots.

Edited by GymTime
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TacticalBazza
Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, GymTime said:

What I'm saying is with faster movement and a 200% health increase, there is less or no emphasis on what I mention and it all comes down to who can land the most/best shots.

You get both players rapidly strafing and spraying each other and the one who can land the most shots wins.

That is what all combat will boil down to

At a base level that sounds way better to me anyway than the current 'pop out of a bush and shoot someone once and they die' which isn't satisfying for either player. You're also discounting the increased tactical implementation of being able to more easily reposition during fights, heal up, make actually using cover more important.

Saw a PMC earlier in the trees on Customs, he didn't see me, I shot him twice, he died. He probably didn't have much fun and I can't say my experience was particularly exciting either.

Then I saw some of his buddies nearby, so I went and lay down in a nearby bush for 5 minutes and waited for them to leave. I stood up, slowly moved away from the area, and died in 2 bullets to one of them I hadn't seen. Not satisfying to be on either side of the engagement. The correct play for me would have been to lie still in that bush for another 20 minutes and hope the other dudes got bored before I did. Is this seriously the gameplay style you want to promote?

Controlling positioning, listening to sound, etc. should be a portion of the game, not the whole game. At this point the shooting mechanics of Tarkov are basically a formality because if you get the drop on the other player first it's basically impossible to lose the engagement. Those aspects you mentioned should give you an advantage in the fight, decided by a contest of who is better at the gunplay, they should not be the sole deciders of the fight to the point that whoever is better at aiming is irrelevant.

Edited by TacticalBazza
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GymTime
Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, TacticalBazza said:

At a base level that sounds way better to me anyway than the current 'pop out of a bush and shoot someone once and they die' which isn't satisfying for either player. You're also discounting the increased tactical implementation of being able to more easily reposition during fights, heal up, make actually using cover more important.

Saw a PMC earlier in the trees on Customs, he didn't see me, I shot him twice, he died. He probably didn't have much fun and I can't say my experience was particularly exciting either.

Then I saw some of his buddies nearby, so I went and lay down in a nearby bush for 5 minutes and waited for them to leave. I stood up, slowly moved away from the area, and died in 2 bullets to one of them I hadn't seen. Not satisfying to be on either side of the engagement. The correct play for me would have been to lie still in that bush for another 20 minutes and hope the other dudes got bored before I did. Is this seriously the gameplay style you want to promote?

Plenty of players do what you mention. You need better gear/armor.

I've seen many players absorb multiple magazines worth of rounds while continually healing up and repositioning. You could have tossed some grenades if you had some.

I personally prefer games with a lower TTK and deadlier feeling guns. There's plenty of pure arcade shooters if that's what you're looking for. Halo, Fortnite, CoD, Overwatch, Destiny, etc.

No other game has replicated the tension that this game has for me personally.

Edited by GymTime

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oldschool15
Posted (edited)

well there does seem to be some common ground here

shooting people is to ez, so they could at least start by increasing recoil significantly and even decrease hitbox sizes

i see your point that longer ttk increases the value of your skill in shooting and we are playing a shooter after all

with that being said i purchased with the impression they were trying for a tactical shooter, im still not even sure if thats correct as i havnt seen it from the devs i could be wrong

in a tactical shooter your tactics are supposed to be the primary focus of the game. Position, Movement, and other decisions like if you fight or hide, type of gear you bring(which alters your playstlye)

Personally i like lower ttk as i am a better twitch shooter, and holding my aim is weaker but you could certainly have a high ttk tac shooter, i just find them unrealistic

Edited by oldschool15

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Salted1337
Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Redangelguts said:

Rising Storm, Red Orchestra, Squad, Project Reality

Highly populated,

Are you sure about that?

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image.png.bacccba48936f47baaea085e2d157c50.png

Even Insurgency Sandstorm has barely any players on it

image.png.65e2d02955503f56cde72f863bb68576.png

Edited by Salted1337

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ACuddlyBadger
10 hours ago, TacticalBazza said:

If you want the game to be 'hardcore' surely that means the more highly skilled player wins. As it currently stands the actual mechanical skill in this game is very low due to the slow movement and instakill health bars. Doesn't seem very hardcore to me.

"Mechanical skill"? The ability to use a mouse or keyboard better than someone else? Every other FPS game does this. Hardcore is a pretty convoluted term that I want to refrain from discussing. The thing that distinguishes Tarkov from other FPS games is that your reflexes and flicks don't matter, the most important criteria in a fight in this game is how you set yourself up before you even think of aiming your gun.

  • Are you peeking the same edge at the same spot, are you trying to reposition in cheeky ways to get a nasty angle?
  • Did you manage your ammunition properly?
  • Did you take enough care to fast/slow walk once you get into a new area to avoid being heard? Do you take the care to slow down enough to hear the slightest traces of another player over the sound of your own footsteps?
  • Did you take the care to learn more advanced looting techniques such as throwing your backpack and rig into a safe corner so you can harvest your kill and search it from the safety of an unknown corner? 
  • Do you have the ability to mod a gun to be good to use, but unappealing to loot? VPO-136's come back in insurance as long as you keep it relatively stock. 

This game punishes you for playing complacently thinking you can be saved by young reflexes because by the time you've compensated with your mechanical skill, you are dead. This is how the game is supposed to be. 

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BanditMaka

Yea I don't hate the suggestion. Not a bad list OP

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DatGreatKhan
18 hours ago, Redangelguts said:

I love hearing this, you're so wrong...

Rising Storm, Red Orchestra, Squad, Project Reality

Highly populated, ACTUAL "hardcore realism" (AS ADVERTISED)

I don't care if a game is realistic or not, but if they SAY it's going to be realistic, they TAKE MY MONEY... they better make it realistic...

Okay, boomer. The examples you listed are not hardcore or realistic. Rising Storm is literally a Day of Defeat: Source copy with shittier graphics than DoD:Source and features despite being made 7 years after. The other games you listed are not close to hardcore, let alone normal realistic gun fighting.

Second, just because a game says it is "realistic" doesn't mean it is invoking a 1:1 ratio from real life to video game. Otherwise, it would be boring as duck and have no original, unique features. In fact, EFT's main attention grabber is its quests, meme items, and its unique "raid" system (PMC vs Scav) fused with a somewhat "realistic" gunplay.

News flash my dude! You can't make a game that is 100%, 1:1 realistic in terms of combat because if that was the case, then no one would be having fun because there are no unique concepts/features. EFT is far from realistic aside from some of its gunfighting content. A lot of the items, ammo, and armor are made up for the sake of originality. If you want a combat simulation game that is so realistic, go invest in VR. 

Another funny thing is that if you wanted EFT to be so realistic like the OP is suggesting, you know you are full of poo. You would not want to walk for 15-20 minutes to your extract because you can't run with a broken leg while on painkillers. You would not want to go in a raid, have a blacked out stomach, and not able to do self-surgery on it like he is suggesting. I could name countless other examples, including the amount of times this game has had to re-adjust ammo/weapons in patches because of an imbalance. Because guess what? That ruins the dynamic of what EFT's raids are about.

"I don't care if a game is realistic or not, but if they SAY it's going to be realistic, they TAKE MY MONEY... they better make it realistic.."

If you don't care why are you responding so ignorantly? And EFT never said it is emulating real life. The term "realistic" doesn't imply "we are copying life in a 1:1 ratio into this game, for everything including combat". It simply implies it is close to reality to make it enticing, while also having original content and being balanced.

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DatGreatKhan
Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, oldschool15 said:

full auto 60 round lazer beams while AD straffing, hoped up on golden star balm(so your fractured fibula is fine) seem arcadey to me

Increase recoil massively, make postioning matter more (add player momentum), make grenades more dangerous than a fire cracker, nerf some of the pain meds

Im on the realistic side of things, however i realize its a simulation. There are things to make the game playable that are part of the simulating part. Perfect example is surgical kits, great for simulation not realistic at all

.... you sound like the stereotypical neckbeard that expects any game you play to be based on real life. What are you going to do now, beg for them to make them remove the ability to strafe at all? Lmao. I guarantee you watch action movies intentionally just to cry about how "unrealistic" they are.

Positioning is already a huge part of every single FPS to exist, including Tarkov. They don't need to do anything to "make positioning matter more". It's an element of every gunfight in Tarkov. You have multiple angles (buildings, etc.) everywhere to flank or re-position from. You can lean, prone, and even roll on your side for angles. Seems pretty positional to me.

Grenades are already dangerous enough, because you can die to a single grenade with the best gear in the game. There are even grenades (VOG-17) that blow up so fast that you don't even have time to react if you use it correctly.

If you want pain meds and surgical kits gone (which don't need to be nerfed) then enjoy walking to an extract with broken legs. Oh wait, you won't even make it in time because you'll either die on your way there or run out of time before extract.

People like you just want to make the game worse than it already is. Go invest in a Kickstarter VR combat simulation if you are that upset.

Edited by DatGreatKhan

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z_Omni_z

Uhhh well... I guess he's not wrong but it's definitely not a game I'd continue to play lol

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oldschool15
4 hours ago, DatGreatKhan said:

.... you sound like the stereotypical neckbeard that expects any game you play to be based on real life. What are you going to do now, beg for them to make them remove the ability to strafe at all? Lmao. I guarantee you watch action movies intentionally just to cry about how "unrealistic" they are.

Positioning is already a huge part of every single FPS to exist, including Tarkov. They don't need to do anything to "make positioning matter more". It's an element of every gunfight in Tarkov. You have multiple angles (buildings, etc.) everywhere to flank or re-position from. You can lean, prone, and even roll on your side for angles. Seems pretty positional to me.

Grenades are already dangerous enough, because you can die to a single grenade with the best gear in the game. There are even grenades (VOG-17) that blow up so fast that you don't even have time to react if you use it correctly.

If you want pain meds and surgical kits gone (which don't need to be nerfed) then enjoy walking to an extract with broken legs. Oh wait, you won't even make it in time because you'll either die on your way there or run out of time before extract.

People like you just want to make the game worse than it already is. Go invest in a Kickstarter VR combat simulation if you are that upset.

I dont watch movies at all, its probably been a year since i seen one. I play games

Positioning is a large part of every fps. Some games are more forgiving than others when it comes to that. Take fortnight for example where you can build structures, or cod where you can AD strafe or serpitine towards cover. I dont want a forgiving game, it should be brutal and being able to serpentine and AD spam unrealistically makes the game EZer than it should be

We just disagree about nades, they seem cleary weak to me

I dont want pain meds gone, and i previously stated surgical kits are great for gameplay. pain meds need nerfed, you shouldnt be able to do this because you used some lip balm

 

Finally the devs have said the game is going to get "worse" as you put it. im only putting my own opinion forward and i love to have discussions about why Im right or wrong, i appreciate your feedback

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DatGreatKhan
48 minutes ago, oldschool15 said:

I dont watch movies at all, its probably been a year since i seen one. I play games

Positioning is a large part of every fps. Some games are more forgiving than others when it comes to that. Take fortnight for example where you can build structures, or cod where you can AD strafe or serpitine towards cover. I dont want a forgiving game, it should be brutal and being able to serpentine and AD spam unrealistically makes the game EZer than it should be

We just disagree about nades, they seem cleary weak to me

I dont want pain meds gone, and i previously stated surgical kits are great for gameplay. pain meds need nerfed, you shouldnt be able to do this because you used some lip balm

 

Finally the devs have said the game is going to get "worse" as you put it. im only putting my own opinion forward and i love to have discussions about why Im right or wrong, i appreciate your feedback

I never said positioning is not apart of the game, but "AD" spam (which is just strafing, everyone does it in every FPS) is not that effective. Unless you are fighting someone with god awful aim, it won't make you invincible. And if we want to talk realistic, gunfights aren't "stand/crouch/prone still and tap/spray at someone". I see nothing wrong with strafing. Unless you want the game to reinvent the wheel of combat and require you to load a musket while standing in a firing formation, I think there doesn't need to be changes in that regard.

 

How does strafing or running in a "snake" make the game "EZ"? Unless you are really, really bad at aiming, it shouldn't be an issue at all. And tapping A/D constantly while fighting someone doesn't make you invincible as I said above... your body is basically in the same general area if you are "A/D spamming" as you are describing. It doesn't make the game more broken at all. Besides, imagine implementing a way to restrict ability to strafe in a... FPS... that's just dumb in my opinion. And "snaking" is really not abused either because you don't really run that fast in this game anyways. If players who strafe/snake around give you an issue, it's probably your aim not the game.

 

Also grenades - you never explained how they are "clearly weak". Grenades in real life, to my basic knowledge, don't blow people up more than a few meters away from it. In Tarkov, I've experienced death and even getting completely red and black limbs from a single grenade. I've been fucked up by grenades that weren't even near me, or their shrapnel flew 8m away and headshot me to death. How are grenades so underpowered, when they instant kill (even heavily geared) you like they should be doing?

 

I always laughed at the GoldenStar Balm because you wipe it on your face and don't take pain for 10 minutes, but I think there is nothing wrong with it. Aside from being a weird type of painkiller, I think it shouldn't be nerfed at all. I think it's pretty fair to have a painkiller that way because 1. it's expensive 2. it's temporary for around 10 mins 3. it doesn't give you more HP or allow you to become superhuman. Aside from the "realism" aspect (and I've said earlier that even in a combat-realistic game like Tarkov, there should always be original/creative features else it's boring) I don't see anything wrong with painkillers. And unless you are a PVP chad who slaps that stuff on every raid like LVNDMARK (who rushes everyone) it's not abused or giving any unfair edge to the game.

 

I think Tarkov is already a very punishing game. I like that they are adding interesting concepts like connecting the maps together, which would in turn make it even more punishing. However aside from balancing armor/ammo/weapons for gameplay sake, I don't think it needs to be 100% realistic to real life because it wouldn't be fun. Tarkov is punishing by the ways you die (raiders, scavs, players, etc.) already in my opinion. Players with good guns/ammo can one/two shot you, or you can be one shot by being shot in the face/eyes. And considering the game's state with servers (which are TERRIBLE) and buggy networking code, you get punished terribly by numerous other factors due the "survive or no loot" concept and the fact that the game is in beta. I think it's probably one of the most punishing games, almost like the Dark Souls of a multiplayer game. Sure, make it more punishing ONLY when the servers are not god awful (lag, de-sync) and buggy - but in my opinion, I don't think it needs to be more punishing by making it "more realistic" - that would just make it unfun and not original or unique as it already is.

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Redangelguts
Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, Salted1337 said:

Are you sure about that?

firefox_go2FcXc64j.jpg.5e48f565a02b9b977ddfd3150527c0e3.jpg

firefox_5aihJ1XbGm.jpg.b367058b091f229bbf4e9d049429e971.jpg

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Even Insurgency Sandstorm has barely any players on it

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Pretty damn good if you ask me... compared to what they compete with... Battlefield 4 being the last modern game that's similar? Except insurgency which I think is just too much like counter-strike... with 2 hits instead of 3-4 hits to chest. Not QUITE the level of realism.

Also Arma 3 and DayZ, both currently on the Top 100 played FPS games, doing quite well, really close to real bullet damage, also every hardcore CoD lobby that still exists... In fact it seems like more hardcore style games are being played when their are realistic guns in use, especially considering more often than not even Counter-Strike will have higher bullet damage factoring in arm and stomach damage being so weak in Tarkov.

The real reason they're low population in my eyes is the game concept is stale, like BF4.

I understand hardcore is the niche, I like the niche... it's a valid and profitable niche, hardcore is a consistently used term in games and represents real bullet damage, I feel tricked by their usage of the term. Softcore games are fun, I like the lazer funhouse games as much as the next man, but it's an oversaturated market for those games, hence why I jump at a game like EFT when I researched what it was.

I could go on a big shpeel as to how it's a certain childish notion to want to strafe and shoot and "control recoil like teh 1337 Shroud" but it's actually totally cool and an amazing thing to do; the apex of difficulty being ultra fast games like Quake where you have to track them going a million miles an hour. Almost EVERY game is some moderate version of this, in fact with reduced movement to fill the gaps in between; hence why it makes perfect sense to occasionally have games like what Tarkov was set out to be, like those high bullet damage games set out to be.

There is a kind of maturity and in fact, like I was insulted, a "boomer" mentality that now since my mind has lower reaction time and is more matured to be able to calculate and utilize positioning and tactics I want more tactical games.

I never see my opposition intelligently argue the real point; they used the term wrong, they might have made a glaring error in terminology... or maybe I am making an error in terminology? It feels cheap, it feels like what I've seen time and time again with softcore gaming and popularity, bend your company to gain maximized profit and forfeit your word, your bond, your credibility. THIS is what you should argue with me about, I'm personally not interested in the argument of which style of game is "better".

Edited by Redangelguts
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oldschool15
Posted (edited)

Response to Khan

-I use AD strafing my self when I get caught in the open and subjectively it seems to increase the chances I survive for a little longer. Its not strafing that seems out of place, its the change of direction faster than FKN DEON SANDERS in his prime

-I use serpentine retreat when being shot at from a distance, as well as observe popular youtubers use the same tactic. If there was some sort of momentum it would reduce the effectiveness. From personal experience it is very effective vs bolt action weapons even at closer ranges

-Frags is just feel honestly, I bring 2 into every raid and have 0 frag kills for my frag quest. The last time I died to a frag was a scav airburst VOG'n me or some S***, and it was like 2 weeks ago. In squad I wreck people playing as a rifleman with tons of frags just underhand chucking em over walls, its ez frags. Like i said they just feel weak

-When you break a leg you shouldnt be able to sprint because you spent a few seconds taking some pain meds

I agree tarkov is already very punishing, I believe making it "more realistic"(i agree its a simulation, and realism is just an abstraction) would make it more fun for some and less for others probably less for the majority 

Edited by oldschool15

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LoginTaken

I would be happy with a realistic damage, sound and spawn system that is not utter garbage.

 

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Hamm
12 hours ago, oldschool15 said:

 

 

 

That boy was thirsty lmao. Thank you for this i laughed hard

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