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Helo229

Bullshit ammo mechanics

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Helo229

I got in 1 gun fight in this raid. I hit a guy 12 times with 7.62x39 PS ammo. I did 358 damage to him, personally. I did 113 damage to his armor, which if even half my hits were to the torso, should have been completely cored regardless of what level it was.   He might have had time to use a single hit from his cheese while I reloaded. I got one shot to the chest with a nagant and fall over dead. I get my armor wasn't up to the job against that. What armor in this game is up to 12 hits of 7.62 PS? At what point was it determined that you have to run top tier ammo or roll with a Nagant into every fight?

I'm a little pissed that this is the direction the game has taken, where if you're not either using 1300+ ruble per shot ammo, or a mosin nagant, you're basically throwing nerf darts. The fact that you can only effectively kill anything with headshots, and that you can literally mag dump into armor and they're still able to effectively fight back unless you're using one of 5 ammo types in the game. This dude was moderately geared and I think in Zuk press armor, there is no reason 12 hits shouldn't have dropped him. 

2020-07-17[22-55] (0).png

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TacticalBazza

I shot an unarmoured PMC at point blank range 7 times with .366 TKM FMJ (98 damage btw) this morning and did 396 damage (0 blocked by armour) and he just doesn't give a poo and one taps me. Yes dear reader 98x7 is in fact ~700 and yet 396 is the number I dealt.

The health system in this game doesn't make a lick of sense.

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oldschool15

So much all of this!!!

Hit a guy with a mag dump(5.45 BT), all of the rounds that hit must have hit stomach or above(i cant remember how many hits I had exactly, alot) 357 damage delt to body, I get one tapped.... This was a few seconds after spawn on factory btw, had enough time to get my golden star used as soon as i spawned and the fight started

 

The list of these moments goes on and on. Ima stop myself here🤐

 

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behi09ma
1 hour ago, Helo229 said:

I got in 1 gun fight in this raid. I hit a guy 12 times with 7.62x39 PS ammo. I did 358 damage to him, personally. I did 113 damage to his armor, which if even half my hits were to the torso, should have been completely cored regardless of what level it was.   He might have had time to use a single hit from his cheese while I reloaded. I got one shot to the chest with a nagant and fall over dead. I get my armor wasn't up to the job against that. What armor in this game is up to 12 hits of 7.62 PS? At what point was it determined that you have to run top tier ammo or roll with a Nagant into every fight?

I'm a little pissed that this is the direction the game has taken, where if you're not either using 1300+ ruble per shot ammo, or a mosin nagant, you're basically throwing nerf darts. The fact that you can only effectively kill anything with headshots, and that you can literally mag dump into armor and they're still able to effectively fight back unless you're using one of 5 ammo types in the game. This dude was moderately geared and I think in Zuk press armor, there is no reason 12 hits shouldn't have dropped him. 

 

have you realized that you landed those shots not only on the armor but also on your opponents legs and arms and stomach?! btw shots can go through arms and hit the thorax also, so 1 bullet can count 2 hits if it goes through the arms. so i assume you have landed most of your shots on arms and legs (not the same arm or leg, cause if you have landed all your shots on one area you could get him easily) and some of your shots get passed the arms and counted more, which in this case the dmg will get reduced by hitting the thorax (armor). your accuracy is not that good so yeah, you have no idea where you were shooting when the firefight started. if you could land a few shots on thorax and armor you could kill him easily, but you have not hit armor that much.

next time if you want to make these kinds of discussions, come with a video, not a post game stats.

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dpintos95
2 hours ago, Helo229 said:

I got in 1 gun fight in this raid. I hit a guy 12 times with 7.62x39 PS ammo. I did 358 damage to him, personally. I did 113 damage to his armor, which if even half my hits were to the torso, should have been completely cored regardless of what level it was.   He might have had time to use a single hit from his cheese while I reloaded. I got one shot to the chest with a nagant and fall over dead. I get my armor wasn't up to the job against that. What armor in this game is up to 12 hits of 7.62 PS? At what point was it determined that you have to run top tier ammo or roll with a Nagant into every fight?

I'm a little pissed that this is the direction the game has taken, where if you're not either using 1300+ ruble per shot ammo, or a mosin nagant, you're basically throwing nerf darts. The fact that you can only effectively kill anything with headshots, and that you can literally mag dump into armor and they're still able to effectively fight back unless you're using one of 5 ammo types in the game. This dude was moderately geared and I think in Zuk press armor, there is no reason 12 hits shouldn't have dropped him. 

With Tarkov's health system, the only damage that results in a kill is "blacking" a Torso or Head.  It's likely that you hit arms/legs/stomach a lot - arms, legs, and stomach combined have 320 HP.  You said he had Zhuk-3 Press Armor, which is class 3.  7.62 PS should penetrate class 3 like a knife through butter — two bullets to the chest would have killed him.

Although they were recently buffed, 7.62x39 ARs have CRAZY recoil.  I think you basically destroyed every part of his body except his thorax/head.  The Zhuk-3 Press Armor guards the thorax and stomach, so your "damaged absorbed by armor" could have been all stomach shots, or 1 stomach 1 thorax.

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oldschool15

does it seem legit to you that someone who has taken so much damage can simply return fire ezpz?

Wheres the massive debuff from getting shot?

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behi09ma
4 minutes ago, dpintos95 said:

With Tarkov's health system, the only damage that results in a kill is "blacking" a Torso or Head.  It's likely that you hit arms/legs/stomach a lot - arms, legs, and stomach combined have 320 HP.  You said he had Zhuk-3 Press Armor, which is class 3.  7.62 PS should penetrate class 3 like a knife through butter — two bullets to the chest would have killed him.

Although they were recently buffed, 7.62x39 ARs have CRAZY recoil.  I think you basically destroyed every part of his body except his thorax/head.  The Zhuk-3 Press Armor guards the thorax and stomach, so your "damaged absorbed by armor" could have been all stomach shots, or 1 stomach 1 thorax.

nice analyze there. the problem is, people always think that everything on their side is ok and all the problems are from the outside. not good aiming and blaming the ammo mechanics. if people could instead of making excuses for their mistakes, try to find the actual problem, that would be perfect.

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Mariner
3 hours ago, behi09ma said:

nice analyze there. the problem is, people always think that everything on their side is ok and all the problems are from the outside. not good aiming and blaming the ammo mechanics. if people could instead of making excuses for their mistakes, try to find the actual problem, that would be perfect.

I’d say 12 hits on a target in a combat situation is good aim. I don’t know how you could sum that up as a mistake. Because he didn’t click on the head?

It’s a shame we have to have these conversations.

Regardless of where those shots land, the ammo/damage mechanics means that most hits are rendered meaningless until the fight is over.

That’s the actual problem.

12 hits with a large caliber rifle is more than enough to put a target down and it should also be in a game that wants to portray any kind of realistic behaviour.

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behi09ma
1 minute ago, Mariner said:

I’d say 12 hits on a target in a combat situation is good aim. I don’t know how you could sum that up as a mistake. Because he didn’t click on the head?

It’s a shame we have to have these conversations.

Regardless of where those shots land, the ammo/damage mechanics means that most hits are rendered meaningless until the fight is over.

That’s the actual problem.

12 hits with a large caliber rifle is more than enough to put a target down and it should also be in a game that wants to portray any kind of realistic behaviour.

like i said in my previous post, you need to see the firefight in video. you can't what happened in that fight from numbers.

he said his opponent maybe healed, or even maybe those hits are not only for that fight, as you know the post raid screen shows the whole raid, not the last fight. and read my earlier post, as i said if a bullet hits your arm, it will pass through your arm and hit the other part of your body if it's on the bullets way with less dmg, so it will count as 2 hits.

 

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GeneralBrus

Well the point is no 1 should be able to survive 12 bullets, thats just bad ballance and creates these super random " i played better, then him but still died" moments...

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MagicPaw
vor 24 Minuten schrieb behi09ma:

like i said in my previous post, you need to see the firefight in video. you can't what happened in that fight from numbers.

he said his opponent maybe healed, or even maybe those hits are not only for that fight, as you know the post raid screen shows the whole raid, not the last fight. and read my earlier post, as i said if a bullet hits your arm, it will pass through your arm and hit the other part of your body if it's on the bullets way with less dmg, so it will count as 2 hits.

I don't think you know what people are complaining about here.

We are complaining that non-thorax- or headshots have no immediate effect, and people keep 90% of their combat effectiveness until their HP pool drops to 0.

We'd like to see some effects from being shot, instead of being able to swallow a pill and keep doing everything like before, even if you're at 2% of your health.

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Mariner
7 minutes ago, behi09ma said:

like i said in my previous post, you need to see the firefight in video. you can't what happened in that fight from numbers.

he said his opponent maybe healed, or even maybe those hits are not only for that fight, as you know the post raid screen shows the whole raid, not the last fight. and read my earlier post, as i said if a bullet hits your arm, it will pass through your arm and hit the other part of your body if it's on the bullets way with less dmg, so it will count as 2 hits.

 

He said he got in 1 gunfight so I’m happy to take post raid numbers on this.

I understand how the mechanics work on over penetration for arms. I’m also aware that more often than not, arms act almost as a second layer of armour that soak up way more damage than they should.

Even if every hit was a “double” of some kind, that’s still 6 hits from 7.62. That’s an astonishing amount of firepower to take and then raise, aim and accurately fire a bolt action rifle.

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z_Omni_z

Been there so many times! Beyond 2-3 weeks into wipe it's not wise to run PS ammo in general for this reason. I know it doesn't seem "right" but that's just how it is currently. I got away from 7.62 all together though this wipe with the price of 855A1 after the unlock. Just pick up an HK or M4 and you'll never have to worry about this again. =D

Although... You'll be spending 40k-50k more per gun (or more depending on your preferences). Honestly though, when you're comparing it to the cost of the ammo/mags for the top tier 5.45 and 7.62 it starts to balance out.

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Mariner
5 hours ago, z_Omni_z said:

Been there so many times! Beyond 2-3 weeks into wipe it's not wise to run PS ammo in general for this reason. I know it doesn't seem "right" but that's just how it is currently. I got away from 7.62 all together though this wipe with the price of 855A1 after the unlock. Just pick up an HK or M4 and you'll never have to worry about this again. =D

Although... You'll be spending 40k-50k more per gun (or more depending on your preferences). Honestly though, when you're comparing it to the cost of the ammo/mags for the top tier 5.45 and 7.62 it starts to balance out.

Your advice is sound, mate but kind of missing the point of the original post.

That fact that 7.62x39 is considered an ineffective round means things have gone very, very wrong.

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z_Omni_z
9 minutes ago, Mariner said:

Your advice is sound, mate but kind of missing the point of the original post.

That fact that 7.62x39 is considered an ineffective round means things have gone very, very wrong.

Valid point. 

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oldschool15
13 minutes ago, Mariner said:

That fact that 7.62x39 is considered an ineffective round means things have gone very, very wrong.

Such a simple statement, Such a true statement. I love it

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ferguswag

This is pretty common, to me at least. I'd like to know what type of armor he had. This situation only really happens when you black all their limbs/stomach. You did 358 damage before dying, so it's not like the gun wasn't doing anything. If you want to survive in this situation you need to land more shots on the torso or use better ammo, plain and simple. In slightly different circumstances you probably would be fine with 7.62x39 PS ammo, but that is the whole point of using expensive ammo, it maximizes those scenarios in which you'd be coming out on top. Unfortunately this just wasn't one of them.

Remember to always top off mags with the good ammo 👍

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Helo229

I havent been on the forum much, but the complaint the I should have been using better ammo is moot. The guy likely had lvl 3 armor on, which the PS ammo defeats easily. The carry-through of flesh damage would have been lower with "better" ammo. It's not an issue of the ammo being effective, it had the pen value to defeat the armor, and higher pen = less flesh damage. About 95% of the armor you run into on players and scavs is lvl 3-4 unless you're in labs, or a tank in factory/reserve. People are dumping money on M61 to go into woods like people are geared in forts and slicks for that map, it's overkill. 

 

The original point I tried making and most people are getting, is that taking 80% of someone's health should render them combat ineffective. 12 hits, hell, 6 hits if you're counting doubles, should put them out of the fight. Severely concussed, the dehydration blackout vision, inability to shoulder a long gun, go into shock, some type of status where they're not able to effectively fight like they don't have between 6-12 holes in them. Force people to carry a pistol or do surgery to shoulder a rifle after a blacked out arm. 

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ACuddlyBadger

Death needs to be a slow and painful regression, not an instantaneous black screen. What is the point of having limb health and all that poo if it doesn't even matter unless you hit the vitals? I can't black out some dudes left arm to make him drop his 8kg primary on the ground? I can't leg him to cause him to fall over unable to get up until he splints? 12 hits, at least 10 of those were to limbs and the stomach. Both arms were surely blacked out, those always go first when someone shoots you from the front, yet he was still able to operate a 4kg rifle.

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gkcx2002
39 minutes ago, ACuddlyBadger said:

Death needs to be a slow and painful regression, not an instantaneous black screen. What is the point of having limb health and all that poo if it doesn't even matter unless you hit the vitals? I can't black out some dudes left arm to make him drop his 8kg primary on the ground? I can't leg him to cause him to fall over unable to get up until he splints? 12 hits, at least 10 of those were to limbs and the stomach. Both arms were surely blacked out, those always go first when someone shoots you from the front, yet he was still able to operate a 4kg rifle.

It's a valid complaint. If your arms are gone how are you able to hold a weapon much less aim accurately? If you get the jump on somebody it should be hard for the other guy to aim accurately if they are being shot. 

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LoginTaken

Ammo and damage system is just horrible as is.

There is a lot of improvement that is needed.

 

If I shoot someone in the neck it should kill them. If I shoot someone in the spine it should paralyze them/kill them. Same for heart and lungs.

I don't care how much armor you wear, if I mag dumb several slugs into your chest close range, you are gana be hurting.

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