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CZelednikov

Pistol caliber damage

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CZelednikov
Posted (edited)

I have really hard time understanding how damage in this game works. I've just managed to kill one scav with Makarov by 8 shots. 
All to the stomach, all confirmed hits and he had no armour at all.
I have really hard time believing that this is realistic damage. Yes, I know I am supposed to aim for the head. 
But a pistol that would require entire magazine and hit with every single bullet would never be possibly accepted into service.
I know that ammo makes great difference but from realistic point of view it seems ridiculous.
PPSh on single shots is completely useless and TT-33 is not even worth mentioning since one magazine is not enough unless you hit the head. 

Edited by CZelednikov

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The_Ares

Each ammo type does a certain amount of flesh and armour damage. A full health PMC is at 420hp. 

Google ammo charts for damages etc and learn the round types. 

I suggest you buy an sks and load 7.62 PS rounds. Will be able to drop most players within a few shots. 

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Yeavo
18 hours ago, CZelednikov said:

I have really hard time believing that this is realistic damage.

No its not realistic and that is how the "hardcore MMO" crowd wants it. If a bullet to the stomach would cause massive damage and possible death then all that fancy gear you spend millions on would possibly be actually worthless when bullets start flying. This would mean that everyone would just hop in raid with minimum amount of gear on them and try to ambush eachother or "camp" and that would turn EFT from the divison/COD hybrid it is now to some sort of realistic survival stealth shooter. Oh the horror.

Just forget the word "realistic" and invest in good ammo. EFT is a MMO and if you treat is such it will all start to make sense. Imagine it as Diablo with assault rifles.

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S5_Mr_Wiggle
2 minutes ago, Yeavo said:

No its not realistic and that is how the "hardcore MMO" crowd wants it. If a bullet to the stomach would cause massive damage and possible death then all that fancy gear you spend millions on would possibly be actually worthless when bullets start flying. This would mean that everyone would just hop in raid with minimum amount of gear on them and try to ambush eachother or "camp" and that would turn EFT from the divison/COD hybrid it is now to some sort of realistic survival stealth shooter. Oh the horror.

Just forget the word "realistic" and invest in good ammo. EFT is a MMO and if you treat is such it will all start to make sense. Imagine it as Diablo with assault rifles.

diablo is a three quarter view and i dont have to deal with internet twat waffles hell bent  on killing me even when all i got is a vpo with a few echo rounds.

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Yeavo
Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, S5_Mr_Wiggle said:

diablo is a three quarter view and i dont have to deal with internet twat waffles hell bent  on killing me even when all i got is a vpo with a few echo rounds.

Well there really isn't anything like EFT out there. However its a weird mix of multiple genres and full of cursed problems: 

Sometimes multiple designs that sound cool on paper will turn out to be incompatible with eachother. This is what I feel has happened to EFT.

Edited by Yeavo

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ferguswag

I've seen bodycam footage of police mag dumping (as they typically do 😬) into someone who unflinchingly continues to charge at them... even if all those bullets to the stomach would be lethal realistically it doesn't mean that it instantly kills them. Some might be overcome by the pain, others might go full on hulk rampage immune to any pain at all. Why should the Scav not have an opportunity to shoot you back since you can't aim for the head?

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mattix
Posted (edited)

@yeavo

Eww gdc. Bunch of pretentious hipster devs who rather talk about how great they are at making games, than actually making them. 

 

@the_ares

Personally I dont like the damage system in the game. It's too 'autistic.' I dont have time or interest to micro manage what type of rounds are in my gun. I'll use what works and ignore what sucks. Which is a damn shame, because all that work put into ammo system feels wasted to me.

Edited by mattix

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CZelednikov
Posted (edited)

Well most of the time you are wearing bullet proof vests, no?
I am asking for resonable damage to unprotected target. I remember in some old videos that internal ballistics are going to be made realistically according to developers.Same with ammunition, so where is it?
For sake of gameplay I can ignore the fact that even with bulletproof vest you would still probably suffer from pain, loss of breath and maybe even some damage. But I see no reason for 8 rounds to the stomac into target with no vest. Most people who have no bulletproof vest have no expensive gear.

Also as mattix mentioned ignoring "less effective guns" or ammo will take away a lot of content. Makarov and Tokarev don't have to be in the game at all because they are useless. A lot of work wasted.

12 hours ago, Yeavo said:

No its not realistic and that is how the "hardcore MMO" crowd wants it. If a bullet to the stomach would cause massive damage and possible death then all that fancy gear you spend millions on would possibly be actually worthless when bullets start flying.

 

Edited by CZelednikov

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inabearsuit
Posted (edited)

You absolutely could unload a mag of 9mm into someone and not kill them unless you hit the head. Or any smaller caliber round for that matter. Tupac was shot 4 times by a .40 (2 in the chest) and initially survived. Suge Knight was shot 6 times and took himself to a hospital. Just google it and you'll find countless stories of people being shot 10, 15, 20+ times and surviving. In 2018, a man was shot 30 times by masked men in Toronto, and he's still alive. 30 times.

Trauma surgeons talk about having patients with numerous rounds in them, but none of the shots did enough serious damage and the patients survived. And sometimes a single round can kill someone. It's all about what gets hit inside the body. Just because you unloaded into a scav's "stomach" doesn't mean he realistically would die, especially not immediately. Someone shot in the stomach, especially in a high adrenaline situation, would absolutely be able to fire back.

The best way to stop someone, whether in the game or realistically, is to shoot their head.

Edited by inabearsuit

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RatParadise
12 hours ago, inabearsuit said:

You absolutely could unload a mag of 9mm into someone and not kill them unless you hit the head. Or any smaller caliber round for that matter. Tupac was shot 4 times by a .40 (2 in the chest) and initially survived. Suge Knight was shot 6 times and took himself to a hospital. Just google it and you'll find countless stories of people being shot 10, 15, 20+ times and surviving. In 2018, a man was shot 30 times by masked men in Toronto, and he's still alive. 30 times.

Trauma surgeons talk about having patients with numerous rounds in them, but none of the shots did enough serious damage and the patients survived. And sometimes a single round can kill someone. It's all about what gets hit inside the body. Just because you unloaded into a scav's "stomach" doesn't mean he realistically would die, especially not immediately. Someone shot in the stomach, especially in a high adrenaline situation, would absolutely be able to fire back.

The best way to stop someone, whether in the game or realistically, is to shoot their head.

Wrong, 3-5 rounds even of a 9mm penetraiting to a center area of stomach are guaranteed to damage/destroy a spine. Bullet doesn't even have to hit a spine itself, a generated shockwave would be enough. At this point a potentional target is not returning fire no more. 

Generally speaking, you disable a target instantly by damaging spine directly or with shockwave of a bullet, same with heart and brain. Spine, heart and brain make for switch off leverage.

Also shots to arms would make it impossible to return fire instantly as well. Any reasonable limb damage that would force a target to drop weapon or fall on ground should kill instantly. "Rising storm" games portray it well, this game not at all. 

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inabearsuit
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, RatParadise said:

Wrong, 3-5 rounds even of a 9mm penetraiting to a center area of stomach are guaranteed to damage/destroy a spine. Bullet doesn't even have to hit a spine itself, a generated shockwave would be enough. At this point a potentional target is not returning fire no more. 

Generally speaking, you disable a target instantly by damaging spine directly or with shockwave of a bullet, same with heart and brain. Spine, heart and brain make for switch off leverage.

Also shots to arms would make it impossible to return fire instantly as well. Any reasonable limb damage that would force a target to drop weapon or fall on ground should kill instantly. "Rising storm" games portray it well, this game not at all. 

Your comment makes so many assumptions such as:

1) Ability to put all the rounds into a tight grouping in the center of the abdomen or chest. Hint: extremely unlikely.

2) 9mm concussive force is enough to damage nearby vital systems. Hint: It's not.

3) Shots to limbs would instantly prevent someone from returning fire. Hint: Not guaranteed.

 

Have you ever been in the military or police and actually been in combat? Or is your knowledge of ballistics and combat solely based on TV and video games? I've personally seen people hit multiple times and continue to fight.

Edited by inabearsuit

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Speznat

bullet damage in this game is a bad joke, they should patch it to realism its so far off it makes me wanna puke.

they should advertise there game as

"Tarkov"

"The same default shooter you had 100times before"

"Arcade gameplay, Game design like COD and Battelfield, and No realism at all"

that would be honest advertisment.

  • Sad 1

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RatParadise
3 hours ago, inabearsuit said:

Your comment makes so many assumptions such as:

1) Ability to put all the rounds into a tight grouping in the center of the abdomen or chest. Hint: extremely unlikely.

2) 9mm concussive force is enough to damage nearby vital systems. Hint: It's not.

3) Shots to limbs would instantly prevent someone from returning fire. Hint: Not guaranteed.

 

Have you ever been in the military or police and actually been in combat? Or is your knowledge of ballistics and combat solely based on TV and video games? I've personally seen people hit multiple times and continue to fight.

Concentrated fire of 9mm will blow target's internal tissue and damage organs badly. High bullet velocity at close range and fragmentation nature are much more than enough. Professionals always aim at center mass and try to group their shots if possible. Combat veterans generally agree that it takes 5 shots to take a target down for good. 

And as for limb damage, i'm not implying that any limb damage should be instagib in the game. But realisticly speaking it's important to understand that bullets brake bones very fast and nasty and even if a traget wouldn't feel pain instantly due to pain shock, limbs won't be responding after severe damage and panic will take over soon following a horrific pain. Which should be same as death in the game. 

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inabearsuit
Posted (edited)
59 minutes ago, RatParadise said:

Concentrated fire of 9mm

If the crux of your argument is "concentrated fire" in an actual firefight, that just isn't going to happen. Most people do not "shoot well" in combat. Depending on the sources, its estimated that the average soldier or LEO has an accuracy rate of 15-25% in combat with a MOA of ~4.0. If you're using a 9mm with averages like that, you aren't blowing anyone's insides out.

In fact, we can even delve into action of the bullet versus reaction of the affected tissue. Significant portions of tissue in our bodies are extremely elastic and cohesive in structure, making them resistant to extreme injury (especially in consideration of 9mm). This resistance also means these tissues can counteract the expansion of the injury around the bullet's path and absorb some of the kinetic energy of the 9mm round. If we look at the frontal area of the body, these types of bullets (9mm, .40, .45) could pass through 75% of our body without hitting anything significant. And of that other 25%, much of that is considered fatal but not immediate (certain arteries, vessels, etc).

9mm rounds can also go through-and-through because they don't fragment, expand, or tumble in the way we'd expect a 5.56 (eg) round to. And we also have to consider bullet velocity, entry angle and path, etc.

And that's the entire point of this post, that putting 8 rounds of 9mm into someone "should" instantly incapacitate someone in combat. With a MOA of 4, those rounds will pepper the midsection but no guarantee of incapacitating the target. The only way to guarantee instant stoppage of an enemy is to hit the central nervous system.

So now we have to consider a video game scenario: players shoot much better in video games than someone would in real life. So, if people scream for "realism" like some of this community, you have to balance ridiculous accuracy of video game players with realistic combat accuracy. And in this game, the body is divided into 7 basic sections with no consideration of actual vital areas of the body or where CNS tissue is. That means the best way to balance all of this is by allowing PMCs and Scavs to withstand a few extra rounds to non-vital sections like limbs or abdomen.

Edited by inabearsuit

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RatParadise
20 minutes ago, inabearsuit said:

If the crux of your argument is "concentrated fire" in an actual firefight, that just isn't going to happen. Most people do not "shoot well" in combat. Depending on the sources, its estimated that the average soldier or LEO has an accuracy rate of 15-25% in combat with a MOA of ~4.0. If you're using a 9mm with averages like that, you aren't blowing anyone's insides out.

In fact, we can even delve into action of the bullet versus reaction of the affected tissue. Significant portions of tissue in our bodies are extremely elastic and cohesive in structure, making them resistant to extreme injury (especially in consideration of 9mm). This resistance also means these tissues can counteract the expansion of the injury around the bullet's path and absorb some of the kinetic energy of the 9mm round. If we look at the frontal area of the body, these types of bullets (9mm, .40, .45) could pass through 75% of our body without hitting anything significant. And of that other 25%, much of that is considered fatal but not immediate (certain arteries, vessels, etc).

9mm rounds can also go through-and-through because they don't fragment, expand, or tumble in the way we'd expect a 5.56 (eg) round to. And we also have to consider bullet velocity, entry angle and path, etc.

And that's the entire point of this post, that putting 8 rounds of 9mm into someone "should" instantly incapacitate someone in combat. With a MOA of 4, those rounds will pepper the midsection but no guarantee of incapacitating the target. The only way to guarantee instant stoppage of an enemy is to hit the central nervous system.

So now we have to consider a video game scenario: players shoot much better in video games than someone would in real life. So, if people scream for "realism" like some of this community, you have to balance ridiculous accuracy of video game players with realistic combat accuracy. And in this game, the body is divided into 7 basic sections with no consideration of actual vital areas of the body or where CNS tissue is. That means the best way to balance all of this is by allowing PMCs and Scavs to withstand a few extra rounds to non-vital sections like limbs or abdomen.

We have a very different understanding of anatomy. From my knowledge human body is very fragile, even more so compared to other animals. We are not meant to take heavy hits and our body is not made to resist any projectiles from rocks and arrows to devastating bullets. Especially considering all the likely internal bleedings that is impossible to fix with "dressing". Imagine one man with a decent hammer giving a proper hit with it to another man's chest. You can compare 9mm hit with it more or less. The difference is that impact from 9mm will be more narrow but deeper on it's path through a body. Anyway i think it's fine that we see ballistic damage differently, i'm not a surgeon and neither are you. 

We can agree that there is no guarantee of instant incapacitation from body shots and for me it's unfortunate that the game limits that possibility when irl it still happens frequently. For me it ruins a lot of weapons as sometimes i just don't feel like i'm using a firearm. It's either a meta rifle or not. 

Since this game is considerably about weapons, i will always root for gunplay realism and damage realism to some point. It's all connected for me and important. Any other apects of realism, i don't care so much, we are playing a game after all, should be hell fun. From real life perspective people would avoid open gunfights in such haotic scenario and prefer ambushes and "HIT EM WITH A RAT ATACK" famous youtuber agenda. 

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CZelednikov
Posted (edited)

I agree with RatParadise.
My point is not whenever it is possible for some people to survive magazine from Makarov. and of course there is no guarantee that you will kill target with 9mm to the chest either. There are people who survived hit to the head with a shotgun having half of their face decimated. So yes, it is obviously possible but since it would be terribly hard to simulate every possible scenario after you get hit by a bullet it would be much easier to simply kill a player.
But for example take Far Cry 2. If you hit the enemy several times, they will fall down unable to properly stand let alone shoot, sometimes they will try to slowly hind behind the cover and the threat they posses to you is minimalized as he can't even hit you. Even  when their woulds are not lethal and most of their body still functions. 
But there is no such thing in Tarkov. As long as the enemy stands, he is 100% dangerous, once you use enough bullets he is 100% dead. I don't mind using 6 rounds for example to kill someone but I want to see some kind of decrease of danger with each shot. For example - two shot to put him down, another two for paralyze him and another two kill him.
Sure both Mak and TT older pistols and they are single stacks but we are not using double stack magazines because single stack magazines do not hold enough bullets to kill person. We use them to increase probability of hit and increase the time behind to trigger. If a pistol was not capable of killing person using it's entire magazine even in optimistic scenario in which you you score a hit then that would be quite a serious flaw, don't you think? 9mm was used for quite a long time and as far as I know single stack 9mm pistols worked. If lethality of pistols was as low as in Tarkov most armies would probably not consider anything smaller than .50 AE. 
I think it is resonable to assume that several shots with Makarov to the stomach from several meters would almost certainly kill you or incapacitate you. It might not, but it most likely will.
Rising Storm 2 did pretty good job simulating vital shots.
Compare Makarov from Rising Storm 2 with one from Escape from Tarkov. Rising Storm does not even consider probability of getting hit to ribcage (casing fragmentation and terrible wounds with internal bleeing) and simulates only spine and heart. If you won't hit these you'll probably kill the men with 3 shots to the chest or so. But considering the distance I am using Makarov (up to 25m, usually around 15m) I can still easily aim at the chest and kill the guy. With just two spots for these vital shots and fair chance of getting them I usually end up killing people with Mak with 2 shots on average. Keep in mind these soldiers are still laying on the ground dying - they are not killed instantly. But of course the player is already waiting for next spawn because bleeding to death on the ground and paralyzed is probably not very enjoyable. Not to mention that they don't seem to be wounded either. They stand run and shoot without any problems.
I can't recall too many cases in this game when I actually needed more than one magazine. In Tarkov on the other hand I can't remember case when one magazine was enough (excluding headshots). 
All in all - sure. You might survive several shots with a pistol to the stomach or chest. Maybe even an entire magazine in very rare scenarios. But these are not rare scenarios in Tarkov. They are completely common. But killing someone with 1-2 shots to the chest without headshots? That's impossible scenario in the game.

Edited by CZelednikov

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LoginTaken

Damage system is bad.

No, that is not fair....

 

Its underdeveloped.

 

 

 

Right now the devs have a health system that is not realistic, though to be fair it can't be due to the fact its a game, but that being said. The system does have plans to be improved upon. Adding in more hit locations and more refined damage values.

 

As right now its bad.

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