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Armor/Ammo Realism, is it Possible?


killer112998

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killer112998

     Hello Devs, before I start my post I'd like to include the current NIJ ballistic ratings that are standard for body armor.

The NIJ classifies body armor into 5 different threat levels: Level IIA, Level II, Level IIIA, Level III and Level IV; based on their ability to stop specified rounds at specified velocities.

Level II armor stops .38 Special, .40 Smith and Wesson, .45 ACP, 9x19, and .357 Magnum. Level IIIA stops .357 Sig, and .44 Magnum. Level III stops 7.62x51 M80 Ball, and 7.62x39 Ball. Level III Lightweight (UHMWPE) stops 5.56x45 M193. Level III+ AND Level III+ UHMWPE stops 5.56x43 M855 Green Tip (M855A1 AP). Lastly, Level IV stops .30-06 M2AP Black Tip

Disclaimer: All armor types able to take larger rounds will also defeat smaller calibers that lighter armor would only be able to defeat. 

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     To start,  I have been following this games development for years, and bought the game a little under two months ago to actually play. During my time playing, I have found many immersion breaking entities in the game, most commonly shown to me is armor, and ammo. We can all say the weapons function beautifully in tarkov, the animations are on point, the timing, bullet drop, zeroing all seem to be absolutely wonderful. My issue lies within the armor class scale, and how ammo penetrates it. I understand that games need to draw things back to keep the playability aspect, but the armor class ratings and how ammo penetrates is unfortunately downright wrong. I am by no means a ballistics expert, but it wouldnt take one to know that there is no such thing as level V or level VI armor.

     That being said, having small caliber ammunition such as 7N31 9x19 capable of punching through level VI Slick vests with ONLY eight rounds is ridiculous. Based on NIJ ratings, .30-06 M2AP Black tip (armor penetrating) ammunition WILL NOT penetrate level IV armor. Let me emphasize, .30-06 M2AP is created with a relatively high quality manganese-molybdenum steel core hardened to 785 Vickers, and it WILL NOT penetrate level IV armor, yet in game, we have 7.62x51 (US .308) that will SHRED level IV like it isn't there, and there are common scav weapon drops that will destroy armor like it isn't there, which simply isn't fair for the level 20-30 players who haven't unlocked all the armor and ammo trades to provide themselves with ample protection against someone with absolutely nothing to lose. I see the upcoming armor changes of removable plates and customizable vests as a HUGE win for battlestate dev team, as it would be no small feat to create the ability to do that, as such would be the first possibly accurate in game representation of armor the way it is in real life; however, I see this as an incredible loss for the player and fan-base of Tarkov. Minimizing overall protection of armor that already doesn't protect against common ammo is disheartening news at a minimum. Helmets will become even more useless, given there would be more ways to catch a bullet around the helmet, on top of that, vests might become all but useful as well; I don't have the Roubles, USD, or Euros to spend 120,000R on a vest every single time I die, or every single time it gets damaged to a throwaway point, on top of the already useless helmets that only seem to protect against non-raider scavs.

     The only way to re-balance armor in Tarkov, is to make it take much more of a beating. My vest in real life has 10x12 multi-curve level III+ multi-hit anti-spalling shooters cut plates, I can take every single common rifle caliber AND their armor piercing variants multiple times over and have NO fragmentation chance that would frag my neck or arms. Current NIJ ratings mark my vest as not able to defeat previously mentioned .30-06 M2AP. To put it bluntly in my from my own perspective, reducing armor effectiveness while simultaneously leaving overpowered ammo alone, in conjunction with an already unfinished armor design based on a fake armor class scaling is only setting this game up for defeat. The END GAME is where people are trying to reach, so we can play expensively yet comfortably. we want fort and altyns to be able to eat everything like it should as super heavy armor, so to see the playerbase even thinking about finding the most effective cheap cheap gear when they already have access to Class 4 Armor is a red flag. No one in their right mind should be bringing in expensive guns with crap armor and no helmet, because they know raider scavs with bad ammo, and players with overpowered ammo, will still one tap the head or chest. 

     The overall area of gameplay in tarkov right now is grim, and we need to know if its going to be revised to be more realisticor if we need to accept that this is what direction the game is going in, and that we need to start playing differently

Thank you for your time, and I apologize if I come off as hostile in my words, I try to include just facts but I am very passionate about EFT and wish it as much success as possible.

I wish everyone the best of luck, 

Rob.

Edited by killer112998
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BlooDxHound

'' I am by no means a ballistics expert, but it wouldnt take one to know that there is no such thing as level V or level VI armor.'' In the western world the highest class of body armor is IV. In russia there is GOST level 5 and 6, one of the GOST 6 levels being able to stop rounds similar to 50BMG.

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davidj123456

Scroll down to the Russian GOST Standard which is likely what the RUSSIAN devs are basing their game on.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_body_armor_performance_standards

Class 6A armor would protect against three hits, fired from 5.10 meters, of:

10.4 g (160 gr) 7.62×54mmR 7-BZ-3 (B32 API) armor-piercing incendiary bullets at a velocity of 800–835 m/s (2624–2739 ft/s).


Listen dude... the above might as well be a 50 caliber bullet for what it is worth... 

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killer112998
28 minutes ago, BlooDxHound said:

 In the western world the highest class of body armor is IV. In russia there is GOST level 5 and 6, one of the GOST 6 levels being able to stop rounds similar to 50BMG.

Well poo, the more you know. either way, the actual breakdown of what ammo can pen what armor is still wrong. Any hard plate plate carrier will defeat any and all 9x19, and if a slick(class six GOST) can only take eight or nine rounds before giving out entirely, theres an issue.

Edited by killer112998
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On 9/8/2020 at 6:39 PM, killer112998 said:

Well poo, the more you know. either way, the actual breakdown of what ammo can pen what armor is still wrong. Any hard plate plate carrier will defeat any and all 9x19, and if a slick(class six GOST) can only take eight or nine rounds before giving out entirely, theres an issue.

Two different players fired 8 bullets. 4 bullets of M855A1 and another 4 bullets of M81. I got killed with only that in the Torax with a level 6 armor. It's completely useless to use level 6 armor at this point.

Another episode. I had level 4 armor this time. The other player fired BT bullets against my level 4 armor. I survived without a stomach, two legs and an arm. I don't know how much bullets hit me this time. I know I got lucky this time because he had a weapon with a lot of recoil. My armor still had half durability (20 out of 40) and he was almost out of bullets. I have the opinion that, while the armor still have durability, it shouldn't be possible to hurt the player.

Edited by KaptainHel
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Servicer_Skynet
On 9/8/2020 at 12:26 PM, davidj123456 said:

Scroll down to the Russian GOST Standard which is likely what the RUSSIAN devs are basing their game on.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_body_armor_performance_standards

Class 6A armor would protect against three hits, fired from 5.10 meters, of:

10.4 g (160 gr) 7.62×54mmR 7-BZ-3 (B32 API) armor-piercing incendiary bullets at a velocity of 800–835 m/s (2624–2739 ft/s).


Listen dude... the above might as well be a 50 caliber bullet for what it is worth... 

This could not be farther from truth. Unless it is the 7n31. In which case what the duck.

On a good day, you're cutting up GOST 3. If dice gods say no, then...

On 9/8/2020 at 11:50 AM, killer112998 said:

   The only way to re-balance armor in Tarkov, is to make it take much more of a beating. My vest in real life has 10x12 multi-curve level III+ multi-hit anti-spalling shooters cut plates, I can take every single common rifle caliber AND their armor piercing variants multiple times over and have NO fragmentation chance that would frag my neck or arms. Current NIJ ratings mark my vest as not able to defeat previously mentioned .30-06 M2AP. To put it bluntly in my from my own perspective, reducing armor effectiveness while simultaneously leaving overpowered ammo alone, in conjunction with an already unfinished armor design based on a fake armor class scaling is only setting this game up for defeat.

I want to point out that your Armor Republic "NIJ III" plates will not stop any rifle bullet at or beyond 3200fps. 193 beats this easily. Even account of NIJ III plate steel from Armor Repub folding like a deck of cards to M80 ball has surfaced.

On 9/8/2020 at 12:39 PM, killer112998 said:

Well poo, the more you know. either way, the actual breakdown of what ammo can pen what armor is still wrong. Any hard plate plate carrier will defeat any and all 9x19, and if a slick(class six GOST) can only take eight or nine rounds before giving out entirely, theres an issue.

1: *loads Stiletto AP 9x19*

All jokes aside, you need to upgrade to around GOST 5 before being proof to pistols. for now. hvap .44 mag is coming for your buttcheeks bad guy, bend over But yes, hardplate is exceedingly good vs small caliber fire. I mean, if unbacked ESAPI can take hits of .22 in the 80s range, then...

Spicy spicy.

On 9/14/2020 at 8:49 AM, KaptainHel said:

Two different players fired 8 bullets. 4 bullets of M855A1 and another 4 bullets of M81. I got killed with only that in the Torax with a level 6 armor. It's completely useless to use level 6 armor at this point.

Another episode. I had level 4 armor this time. The other player fired BT bullets against my level 4 armor. I survived without a stomach, two legs and an arm. I don't know how much bullets hit me this time. I know I got lucky this time because he had a weapon with a lot of recoil. My armor still had half durability (20 out of 40) and he was almost out of bullets. I have the opinion that, while the armor still have durability, it shouldn't be possible to hurt the player.

I still don't get why A1 EPRs are so strong. Those are some spicy fuckers, goddamn! They threaten GOST Five! GOST FIVE! HOW?!

They should be at a deadlock with GOST Four, why are they punching through level five vests?!

M61 is literally better M993.

Why. Nikita, why?

The best penetrator an ASh-12 can field is only able to cut FIVE reliably! This should be clearing Six easily! It's not enough that ASh has massive recoil, it is now ALSO ineffective in job it was MADE FOR! AAARGH!

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