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MarcBorgia

damage system makes no sense

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MarcBorgia

Had matches where ive died to a guy after doing over 400 body damage to them and i have matches of getting 1 tapped in an armored chest by .366 rounds. If you are going for realistics how about fix that before adding things like weapon malfunctions and different bleed types. Consistancy is all i ask for.

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Thormato

Are you serious? Those different bleed types are the first direction in a better damage system, this shows that you didnt think about your suggestion...

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MarcBorgia

Didnt think much about it no, didnt need to. Make consistent damage and then ill be happy with different bleed types, 90% of the time i die from anythi g else other than bleeding out so how does different bleed types really improve the current damage system?

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gkcx2002

Yeah, I rarely bleed out. 99% of the time you die instantly or within seconds. Bleed types sounds cool and all but that will rarely come into play. The hit detection in this game is a joke. I've had scavs shoot me with laser beams  from 200 yards away and then I've had a scav dump a whole magazine on me from 20 feet away and only hit me once. I've had countless times that my reticle has never come off my target and only a few bullets get registered as hits out of an entire magazine! 

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GeneralBrus
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Thormato said:

Are you serious? Those different bleed types are the first direction in a better damage system, this shows that you didnt think about your suggestion...

well, i actually agree here, tarkov allows you to tank waaay to many bullets and at the same time you die too fast, because of the "inconsistancy" that hes talking about, the difference in how many shots you can take to your chest compared to your limbs is crazy, same goes for headshots compared to chest.

these "dmg steps" should be flattened, right now most firefights are decided by who takes the first unlucky headshot and more bullets increase this chance, thus the full auto meta.

Edited by GeneralBrus
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Rekonsile
3 hours ago, MarcBorgia said:

Didnt think much about it no, didnt need to. Make consistent damage and then ill be happy with different bleed types, 90% of the time i die from anythi g else other than bleeding out so how does different bleed types really improve the current damage system?

ap 366. will 1 shot through level 4 armor everytime... seems pretty consistant to me

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Tempten101

I feel what adds to this, is that with pre-popping painkillers becoming the norm, getting hit / losing limbs has almost no consequence.

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GhostZ69
1 hour ago, Tempten101 said:

I feel what adds to this, is that with pre-popping painkillers becoming being the norm, getting hit / losing limbs shot has almost no consequence unless you die.

That is fixed now.  Basically, bullets don't mean a damn thing in this game unless you die.  You are either 100% combat effective or you are dead.  There is not really any in between.  Which is sad, because back before the game became a twitch streamer butt kissing contest it was MUCH better in that regard.  Maybe, one day, they will move away from all of the gaminess they have added...  maybe...

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GeneralBrus
11 hours ago, Rekonsile said:

ap 366. will 1 shot through level 4 armor everytime... seems pretty consistant to me

U sure about that? 7n1 has more pen and only one shot killed lvl4 armor last patch if it fractured. 

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Biala_Mewa
18 hours ago, MarcBorgia said:

getting 1 tapped in an armored chest by .366 rounds.

What armor have you worn?

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Rekonsile
7 hours ago, GeneralBrus said:

U sure about that? 7n1 has more pen and only one shot killed lvl4 armor last patch if it fractured. 

It does far more damage than 7n1

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GeneralBrus
9 minutes ago, Rekonsile said:

It does far more damage than 7n1

well its 4 more dmg points, gotta double check if there is any video on that, I'm kinda interested now

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MarcBorgia

The chest is what 85hp? And even so, ive had plenty of raids that ive had multiple core parts blacked out, even the head, and didnt die. So how does getting 1 tapped in the chest make sense? Should just be blacked out. Thats why i said consistancy, i dont get why sometimes ive had almost everythi g blacked out and survive then others i get 1 tapped to the chest. Now having a blacked out head makes no sense to me so 1 tap head shots are good.

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LoginTaken

Agree.

 

The damage system is very flawed.  Been using M80 all day, hit all shots but one. All chest or head. Only the head-shots have been killing. Even if the player/scav wears no armor.

Even then if wearing armor, it should knock someone on their ass/break a rib. (within reason)

 

 

Right now the damage system needs.

1. Vital areas

- Heart, Spine, Lung etc.

2. Force damage.

-Piercing of the round is one thing, but the force behind it is another all its own.

 

All bullets should have purpose. They should just have more efficient varieties.

 

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Wurfy

Ooooh boy. The health and damage system is one of my pet peeves.

It's so arbitrary. Getting shot in the leg does nothing until it reaches some weird threshold and now it suddenly starts damaging the rest of you when you get shot there? And that threshold is, for example, always two rounds of 5.56 FMJ, never 3, never 1? Frankly there's so much wrong with the system, I can't be bothered to explain it here.

Spoiler

My ideas for a better health system:

First, bleeding should be a much bigger deal than it is right now. Currently if I start bleeding, I'll make a mental note of that and deal with it once I have time. In reality, though, arterial bleeding is the single biggest concern you can have. Even if your patient's heart has stopped and CPR is needed, massive bloodloss is STILL your first concern.

Getting shot in a limb at all should have the same effect that currently having a blacked out limb has, and it should always start bleeding. Med kits should only be able to stop that bleeding and nothing more (for limbs, at least). There should also be a fairly high chance of arterial bleeding, which should require you to drop everything you're doing and put a tourniquet on right away if you want to survive. Or just rush the enemy in the little time you have left in order to help your buddies or decrease the odds of your gear getting looted.

Putting on a tourniquet or getting your limb blacked out should take it out of commission entirely - for hands meaning that you can only use pistols (or fire your rifle one-handed if it's light enough and your other arm is uninjured). For legs it should rule out running entirely, drugs should be needed just to be able to run after a single hit.

Damage to a blacked out limb should just do nothing, unless a tourniquet has not yet been applied, in which case bleeding and arterial bleeding would still be possible.

Arterial bleeding in the stomach/thorax should require hemostatic gauze or applicators (Quikclot, Celox Applicator, that sort of stuff). Getting hit in the chest in general should in general have the potential to cause other interesting issues, such as instant death regardless of damage done (simulating heart/spine hits), sucking chest wounds which would stop stamina regen and would need to be treated within a minute or two before you die (requiring chest seals to treat, which would be a part of Salewa/IFAK/Grizzly or sold separately), getting hit in the armor that's only barely enough to stop the bullet could cause pneumothorax (slowly reduce stamina regen, once it reaches 0 you're, again, on timer to fix it - getting a penetrating chest cavity wound would be an option, although decompression needles should be preferred - again, part of IFAK/Grizzly or sold separately). Possibilities are endless, human bodies are weird like that.

Bullet hits should also cause wildly random amounts of damage. So for example, instead of your M80 always doing exactly 80 points of damage, it should do 80 points on average, with the probability of any given number being based on a bell curve - meaning that most hits would do 60-100, but numbers as low as 20 and as high as 140 would be possible, although very improbable.

Surgical kits could be the magical fix that solves anything you have, but takes ages.

This entire idea is achievable without having to rewrite the entire system, it's mainly just adjusting values and creating some new effects. And the result would be that getting shot even once would be a big deal, a firefight would be dangerous regardless of who you're fighting, even some dude with a Makarov could be a threat despite you having gear worth "yes" amounts of money, and you wouldn't just rely on headshots to get your kills. You'd have good incentives to take it slowly and carefully, but potentially also incentives to be fast and brutal. And once the firefight is over, if you're still alive, you could just use the surgical kit to get back to decent health and still have fun for the rest of the raid.

 

On 10/10/2020 at 4:48 PM, MarcBorgia said:

ive had plenty of raids that ive had multiple core parts blacked out, even the head, and didnt die. So how does getting 1 tapped in the chest make sense? Should just be blacked out.

If your chest or head blacks out, you die, except if it blacked out as a result of bleeding.

It's consistent, just arbitrary.

 

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MarcBorgia
21 hours ago, Wurfy said:

Ooooh boy. The health and damage system is one of my pet peeves.

It's so arbitrary. Getting shot in the leg does nothing until it reaches some weird threshold and now it suddenly starts damaging the rest of you when you get shot there? And that threshold is, for example, always two rounds of 5.56 FMJ, never 3, never 1? Frankly there's so much wrong with the system, I can't be bothered to explain it here.

  Hide contents

 My ideas for a better health system:

First, bleeding should be a much bigger deal than it is right now. Currently if I start bleeding, I'll make a mental note of that and deal with it once I have time. In reality, though, arterial bleeding is the single biggest concern you can have. Even if your patient's heart has stopped and CPR is needed, massive bloodloss is STILL your first concern.

Getting shot in a limb at all should have the same effect that currently having a blacked out limb has, and it should always start bleeding. Med kits should only be able to stop that bleeding and nothing more (for limbs, at least). There should also be a fairly high chance of arterial bleeding, which should require you to drop everything you're doing and put a tourniquet on right away if you want to survive. Or just rush the enemy in the little time you have left in order to help your buddies or decrease the odds of your gear getting looted.

Putting on a tourniquet or getting your limb blacked out should take it out of commission entirely - for hands meaning that you can only use pistols (or fire your rifle one-handed if it's light enough and your other arm is uninjured). For legs it should rule out running entirely, drugs should be needed just to be able to run after a single hit.

Damage to a blacked out limb should just do nothing, unless a tourniquet has not yet been applied, in which case bleeding and arterial bleeding would still be possible.

Arterial bleeding in the stomach/thorax should require hemostatic gauze or applicators (Quikclot, Celox Applicator, that sort of stuff). Getting hit in the chest in general should in general have the potential to cause other interesting issues, such as instant death regardless of damage done (simulating heart/spine hits), sucking chest wounds which would stop stamina regen and would need to be treated within a minute or two before you die (requiring chest seals to treat, which would be a part of Salewa/IFAK/Grizzly or sold separately), getting hit in the armor that's only barely enough to stop the bullet could cause pneumothorax (slowly reduce stamina regen, once it reaches 0 you're, again, on timer to fix it - getting a penetrating chest cavity wound would be an option, although decompression needles should be preferred - again, part of IFAK/Grizzly or sold separately). Possibilities are endless, human bodies are weird like that.

Bullet hits should also cause wildly random amounts of damage. So for example, instead of your M80 always doing exactly 80 points of damage, it should do 80 points on average, with the probability of any given number being based on a bell curve - meaning that most hits would do 60-100, but numbers as low as 20 and as high as 140 would be possible, although very improbable.

Surgical kits could be the magical fix that solves anything you have, but takes ages.

This entire idea is achievable without having to rewrite the entire system, it's mainly just adjusting values and creating some new effects. And the result would be that getting shot even once would be a big deal, a firefight would be dangerous regardless of who you're fighting, even some dude with a Makarov could be a threat despite you having gear worth "yes" amounts of money, and you wouldn't just rely on headshots to get your kills. You'd have good incentives to take it slowly and carefully, but potentially also incentives to be fast and brutal. And once the firefight is over, if you're still alive, you could just use the surgical kit to get back to decent health and still have fun for the rest of the raid.

 

If your chest or head blacks out, you die, except if it blacked out as a result of bleeding.

It's consistent, just arbitrary.

 

Ill try to get a screen shot the next time its happens. Maybe its something thats been fixed recently but its definitely happened to my friends and i multiple times.

Edited by MarcBorgia

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MarcBorgia

And again get one shot in an armored chest with the worst .308 ammo in game. It doesnt make sense

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Wurfy
18 hours ago, MarcBorgia said:

Ill try to get a screen shot the next time its happens. Maybe its something thats been fixed recently but its definitely happened to my friends and i multiple times.

I don't know what a screenshot would prove.

You get a blacked out chest/head as a result of bleeding, what's a screenshot supposed to show?

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MagicPaw

The fact that M80 ball can't kill in one blow to the unarmored chest, when a fictictious cartridge like the .366 AP can do that through level 4 armor tells me everything I need to know.

"Streamers didn't want to get one-tapped so frequently, the +5 thorax HP were implemented to draw out the TTK." - oh really? M80 didn't even 1-tap through level 4 before that, anyway. Why make all bolt action rifles obsolete then, and effectively replace them with a made up cartridge fired from a semi-automatic civilian gun? Is that realism? Is that drawing out the TTK?

And let me guess, at this point the Vepr-203 has shot up in price so much, it's not even funny anymore.

And what about the constant increase in player movement speed? When did you last see slow methodical room-clearing in this game?

The core aspects of this game are anything but realistic, they're laughable.

But, all they ever do is keep adding little gimmicks, maps, mods and guns on top, instead of addressing these issues.

Just more sugar coating on the rotten candied apple.

If that's what these people eat, let 'em have it, I guess.

 

At least they seem to be going after the massive desynch, now... The issues listed above have, however, only very little to do with the horrible netcode and server performance in this game.

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Xeraphas
On 10/7/2020 at 4:25 PM, gkcx2002 said:

Yeah, I rarely bleed out. 99% of the time you die instantly or within seconds. Bleed types sounds cool and all but that will rarely come into play. The hit detection in this game is a joke. I've had scavs shoot me with laser beams  from 200 yards away and then I've had a scav dump a whole magazine on me from 20 feet away and only hit me once. I've had countless times that my reticle has never come off my target and only a few bullets get registered as hits out of an entire magazine! 

I've been complaining about this a lot. The game felt a lot better earlier in the wipe and now the servers feel like they did 2 years ago again. I swear BSG breaks the netcode over and over again with every little change and we end up back at square one too often. The other thing I don't like is with the netcode feeling worse I get a lot more sus deaths and often it feels like people have been cheating more. Maybe it's server lag and people are jiggle peeking corners and not rendering because their client registers them in the same position they were in before the lag and that's how they know where I am even at a long distance when I've been staring at a corner where they hid. Who knows people could be using radar or just lag switch but because the servers are so inconsistent I never know what's broken and often give a lot wiggle room on what feels suspicious and will only report people that are very obviously cheating which is very few with most of the old obvious hacks getting fast bans like I haven't seen a fly hacker in a while but it's one of the few things I could almost assuredly report but even fly hacking might not be obvious enough with the right lag in a few places of the game. There is a known collision issue in woods in the lumber where scavs will walk 20 ft off the ground and with the right lag people could end up looking like a fly hack there.

They do need to add new content and there is currently obvious issues with late game and wiping and the play cycle but they really need to figure out what's been killing the servers the last month. Everyone I play with and myself have had consistently higher ping than we used to by about 30-50ms and hit registration has been really awful.

Consistency would at least help with how people feel about their deaths. (a death cam or at least some info would really help too like even it it's just the position of your enemy and you and the path the shot took drawn with a red line it would make things feel so much better with consistent gameplay.

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ghost14

Last update sucks, heavy bleeding, dehydration etc. fu*k it. I fail tasks which were already very hard to finish, now I die 10m from extract, such a great fun.

Edited by ghost14

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davidj123456

If they heal then you can do 1000 damage to them in the end screen lmfao.
The guy you did 400 damage to may have been on propital... may have been on etg-c... or p22... or meldonin... or healed... or you got unlucky... etc etc etc

Most 366 rounds do more than 85 damage which is the HP of the Thorax. 366AP can penetrate level 4 armor. What do you expect?

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Kthelmir

i wonder when they will finally make it so that when you use painkillers you get the opposite effect of what it is now visually. If you pop morphine your vision does not become sharper then normal.

Painkillers should kill the pain and keep your guy from whining and wheezing alerting the whole map to your location. They should make you able to overcome some pain but they should not make your vision better. If you pop morphine or other strong analgesics you become numb and disoriented at times. 

So yeah alot in this medical system does not make sense. Also analgesics should take a little before they kick in. 

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Spectator6
On 10/8/2020 at 4:44 AM, GhostZ69 said:

That is fixed now.  Basically, bullets don't mean a damn thing in this game unless you die.  You are either 100% combat effective or you are dead.  There is not really any in between.  Which is sad, because back before the game became a twitch streamer butt kissing contest it was MUCH better in that regard.  Maybe, one day, they will move away from all of the gaminess they have added...  maybe...

Hello @GhostZ69!

Which, ironically, may have less to do with the damage system and more to do with the healing system.

As long as players are able to repair non-blackened body parts back up to 100% health, there will likely always be a lack of "grey area" in the game.

IMO, it'd be interesting to experiment with health degrading for all damage, not just for those limbs that are blackened, then surgery'd, and healed.

Each time a body part is damaged, some amount of its max health gets removed. And this could be stairstepped a bit. So minor damage received? Only a small amount is reduced. Brought down to 50%? Maybe max health drops by 15%. Brought down by 75? Maybe max health is reduced by 25% (just to throw out numbers).

This way, rather than body part health being an all or nothing with regard to blackened or not, let it all degrade.

I suspect that right there would go a long way toward preventing players from being either full 100% or limping and coughing to their dooms. Because as long as a player can get back to 100%, if he can spare a few more moments, why NOT patch the arms back up to mint condition? This would almost guarantee that everyone who has been in contact will have least some battlescars to show for it.

Thoughts? Improvements?

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fosben

just had a bad experince towards a non geared player at night raid. I sat down aiming at sniper scaw when I heard a player running. I snuck into a bush: 
I had M1 rig+helmet and nv. pp-19 w/silencer. did 304 damage to him from behind, he turned around shot 2 shots 9x19mm pso in my head/jaws from about 20-30 meters..... I died. he had no problem strafing after I hit him.. 

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