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MadDrZ

Why is the skill ceiling for this game reversed?

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MadDrZ

So ive played Tarkov for 2 wipes now, and am just now getting into the most current wipe, ive had my reign as a god and as a peasant. So i gotta ask, why do the "fresh-meat" players have to face the hardest difficulty? Like cmon man, as a freshie for this wipe i have to say the levels 1-9 have it the WORST out of all the players, especially the players who just bought this game because they have no stats, no gear, no friends, and theyre so weak they die in one hit to anything stomach or above no matter the gun. Like the fresh player cannot have access to anything good until either level 10 or some really good luck. Meanwhile the level 10+ players can have the best gear and weapons/ammo and complete obliterate new player and scav alike. Doesnt this seem oddly wrong to anyone? The overleveled played can obviously gimp themselves down by doing hatchling runs, but the new player has no way to experience any of the high quality gameplay. Like if i persist as a freshie and become godlike, the skill ceiling just decreases. Ive gone from having to play each run perfectly and avoiding all damage to becoming a fat sack of armor who can only be killed by 40 leg shots or the highest ammo level. I can understand the difficulty the game is aiming for, but shouldnt the veteran players be sweating bullets and trying to improve their skills rather than the freshie who just learned how to loot having to play each run perfectly?

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gkcx2002

I'm struggling to get to level 10. Seems like the game will completely change for me once I'm able to use the flea market. That's one of the big issues with this game. It's so easy to farm money you can have what ever you want once you hit level 10. They should get rid of the flea market and make you actually work to get gear. 

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MadDrZ

Thats the argument im making. When youre below level 10 you dont have any redeeming qualities, but once you reach level 10 you have your ability levels, your vendor levels, and the flea market. So all of a sudden youve went from playing this game like a Covert ops bambi, to just being  your average action shooter protagonist. Its dumb that the players getting adjusted and just starting out have it harder than the level 10+. In addition to having it harder, the game tops it off by putting you in the SAME lobbies as the people with access to the higher abilities, gear, and the people who spawn in groups. Seems like after level 10 it becomes all downhill in skill from there. Cant hear? get a headset. Cant aim? get a gun stocked to the brim with attachments so its a laser pointer. dying in one hit? welp youve leveled up your resistance skills so now you can take a mosin to your gut as a hatchling and survive , oh and dont forget this KILLA armor and helmet w/ visor. Meanwhile the level 3 doesnt even know how to properly extract. Seems the game for the first 10 hours is just waiting and hoping simulator

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Zeroa
8 hours ago, MadDrZ said:

So ive played Tarkov for 2 wipes now, and am just now getting into the most current wipe, ive had my reign as a god and as a peasant. So i gotta ask, why do the "fresh-meat" players have to face the hardest difficulty? Like cmon man, as a freshie for this wipe i have to say the levels 1-9 have it the WORST out of all the players, especially the players who just bought this game because they have no stats, no gear, no friends, and theyre so weak they die in one hit to anything stomach or above no matter the gun. Like the fresh player cannot have access to anything good until either level 10 or some really good luck. Meanwhile the level 10+ players can have the best gear and weapons/ammo and complete obliterate new player and scav alike. Doesnt this seem oddly wrong to anyone? The overleveled played can obviously gimp themselves down by doing hatchling runs, but the new player has no way to experience any of the high quality gameplay. Like if i persist as a freshie and become godlike, the skill ceiling just decreases. Ive gone from having to play each run perfectly and avoiding all damage to becoming a fat sack of armor who can only be killed by 40 leg shots or the highest ammo level. I can understand the difficulty the game is aiming for, but shouldnt the veteran players be sweating bullets and trying to improve their skills rather than the freshie who just learned how to loot having to play each run perfectly?

I'm curious what you would have changed about a new players introduction to the game?

I know my start into the game was hard which prompted me to learn strategies, watch videos, make friends, learn the maps, and more that turned me into the player I am now.  And now that I can do these things I still work hard to learn new ways to take fights, new ways to build weapons for situations, new strategies to work with a squad to win group fights and so much more.  

 

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MadDrZ
19 minutes ago, Zeroa said:

I'm curious what you would have changed about a new players introduction to the game?

I know my start into the game was hard which prompted me to learn strategies, watch videos, make friends, learn the maps, and more that turned me into the player I am now.  And now that I can do these things I still work hard to learn new ways to take fights, new ways to build weapons for situations, new strategies to work with a squad to win group fights and so much more.  

 

What i would change personally? Reduce healing times for level 9s and below so they can get back into the fight as PMC in 5 minutes, make the lobbies to where me as a level 5 cant be paired in with level 65  B3AR_GRILLZ and his 4 buddies. I do like that if you go broke the vendors help you or you can reset account, but the latter is counter intuitive. Umm the biggest help i could imagine that would entice  new players to stick to the game would be a tutorial or a grace period. Since a tutorial doesnt exist yet, id propose that if youre under the flea market level (9 and under) that the offline raids count as experience and every looted item becomes untradeable in the flea market, that way the players get to learn the maps, get a few guns, learn the AI, and actually get to have an average survival time of more than 21 seconds. With these changes, there is no real exploits that can be done as every item you have can only be sold to vendors so you cant become a billionaire before level 10, if the players decide to be headstrong and go in and abuse their 5 min PMC timer they'll inevitably face the reality that their gear is inferior to other PMCS, and if they play offline continously then theres very little worry they'll get the highest tier gun/ammo so they wont suddenly be geared to the teeth unfairly, most of their arsenal would be Scav guns which can be respectable but obviously arent the highest concern. That way the smart freshie can atleast join the public servers with some confidence/gear/money/ knowledge but ultimately theyre not really far enough ahead to be scary. Its respectable that you learned your strats and all that in the current game state, however anyone can do that given enough time, but that doesnt necessarily make the game "fun", meanwhile if the younglings can learn those things (obviously barring the squad tactics) whilst fighting the auto-aim scavs and atleast taste success 20% of the time it would make the game a whole lot more fun for them

Edited by MadDrZ

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Zeroa
24 minutes ago, MadDrZ said:

What i would change personally?
...
game a whole lot more fun for them

All of that is an interesting take.. I guess what I'm curious of is if you've played two wipes now at this point, what has you thinking about all this as seemingly it doesn't apply to you?  

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MadDrZ
15 minutes ago, Zeroa said:

All of that is an interesting take.. I guess what I'm curious of is if you've played two wipes now at this point, what has you thinking about all this as seemingly it doesn't apply to you?  

Im a freshie right now, as i said, this is my 2nd wipe. So im re-experiencing the weakness, additionally if im correct didnt the flea market just recently get cut off from the low level players? (i stopped playing for a while after I reached level 20ish the first wipe i played as there wasnt much else to explore in the game).So as i sit here coming back to the game as of 7am today the few rounds ive played and some moderate browsing on the forums inform me that a majority of low level players are not having fun. Finally, i have to ask as a comeback to your question: Even if i became the best at the game, wouldnt it be in everyones best interest that the new players and low-levels persist and have fun? Like so what if *I'M* experienced, the new players who got this game deserve to have fun instead of spending 7/8 of the time in a loading screen or waiting for a respawn, dont they? thats what makes the game have a way longer life-span and id honestly be really interested to see this game eventually hit 1.0

Edited by MadDrZ

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jockmcplop

imo the best way to improve the new player experience without changing the difficulty would be to make it so you can start buying some basic mods for early guns when you finish the first quest for each dealer. That way it still feels fresh as you approach level 10 instead of being an epic slog to get there.

So the approach to dealer level 2 is more like a gradient instead of a huge jump in mod availability at level 15.

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Zeroa
2 minutes ago, MadDrZ said:

Im a freshie right now,
...
see this game eventually hit 1.0

Gotcha! No for sure I can see you're approaching this topic from a place of love for the game, as I know we all have our different qualms with it from time to time.

Regardless of whatever you or I think is right, I am sorry to hear that you are not having fun.  The rest of this is simply my own approach given how the game is right now, whether that changes to align with your thoughts in the future or not.

My own brother took a break for a long while after some pretty good success last wipe and he's also struggling towards that game opening moment of unlocking the flea market.  To remedy those pains, as several players I know have done, we run together and work to help the fresh players complete tasks, farm scavs, and build their initial bank roll.  I, personally, have found that finding a group to connect with helps take the pressure off immensely and make the game more entertaining too!  Not to mention this provides an opportunity for tips, tricks, and game knowledge to be shared.

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MadDrZ
3 minutes ago, jockmcplop said:

imo the best way to improve the new player experience without changing the difficulty would be to make it so you can start buying some basic mods for early guns when you finish the first quest for each dealer. That way it still feels fresh as you approach level 10 instead of being an epic slog to get there.

So the approach to dealer level 2 is more like a gradient instead of a huge jump in mod availability at level 15.

I agree, even with just some more variety there could be a vast difference for how the low level players can push through. Actually you make a good point, weapon modding for low level characters usually doesnt extend past a flash light and i know some of those mods can make a big difference for how the gun feels.

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MadDrZ
5 minutes ago, Zeroa said:

Gotcha! No for sure I can see you're approaching this topic from a place of love for the game, as I know we all have our different qualms with it from time to time.

Regardless of whatever you or I think is right, I am sorry to hear that you are not having fun.  The rest of this is simply my own approach given how the game is right now, whether that changes to align with your thoughts in the future or not.

My own brother took a break for a long while after some pretty good success last wipe and he's also struggling towards that game opening moment of unlocking the flea market.  To remedy those pains, as several players I know have done, we run together and work to help the fresh players complete tasks, farm scavs, and build their initial bank roll.  I, personally, have found that finding a group to connect with helps take the pressure off immensely and make the game more entertaining too!  Not to mention this provides an opportunity for tips, tricks, and game knowledge to be shared.

The game is better with friends but I've seen some really scumbag stuff with groups happen in this game (im not sure if its still applicable) but i remember watching some video where this guy would queue and group with randoms and then kill them at the extract or the very beginning of the raid. Honestly, if that happened to me when i first started this game i may have never picked it up again because those kids usually feel confident enough to bring their good kits and the guy queuing would usually bring just a mosin or something similar. You have to get people you trust which is very hard to do in a game where loot is everything. I remember the banner saying something like "How to get loot in EFT easily", really turned me off from group stuff after that

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Zeroa
3 minutes ago, MadDrZ said:

The game is better with friends 
...
stuff after that

Oh for sure that is pretty awful to happen.  I hope much of that is mitigated by people signing up for a Sherpa as well getting plugged in with proper groups via the Official Escape From Tarkov Discord.  I play with all types and there are so many ways to play this game it does take time to find a group to fit every style - but there's so many players now it is definitely possible!  

I'll never forget a buddy of mine, playing with him the first time, the week before he'd queued with a random group and gotten a blue keycard taken from in front of him when he asked if it was worth anything! And now he helps teach players how to hunt for ledx and such lol.  It's definitely up to each of us - and conversations like these - to improve the status quo for all. 

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MadDrZ
5 minutes ago, Zeroa said:

Oh for sure that is pretty awful to happen.  I hope much of that is mitigated by people signing up for a Sherpa as well getting plugged in with proper groups via the Official Escape From Tarkov Discord.  I play with all types and there are so many ways to play this game it does take time to find a group to fit every style - but there's so many players now it is definitely possible!  

I'll never forget a buddy of mine, playing with him the first time, the week before he'd queued with a random group and gotten a blue keycard taken from in front of him when he asked if it was worth anything! And now he helps teach players how to hunt for ledx and such lol.  It's definitely up to each of us - and conversations like these - to improve the status quo for all. 

Thats what it all boils down to my man. We have to take care of our newer and less experienced players and help them get along and provide them the avenues to succeed. I'd obviously (from my post) rather see the game itself help guide those players but its really encouraging seeing that a good chunk of the veterans are willing to help these players and even have found a way to group on in reliable ways. Every inexperienced player who gets the proper knowledge and mentality can some day get along and help the next wipes players when they inevitably roll in out of interest

Edited by MadDrZ
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Musashii89
25 minutes ago, MadDrZ said:

Thats what it all boils down to my man. We have to take care of our newer and less experienced players and help them get along and provide them the avenues to succeed. I'd obviously (from my post) rather see the game itself help guide those players but its really encouraging seeing that a good chunk of the veterans are willing to help these players and even have found a way to group on in reliable ways. Every inexperienced player who gets the proper knowledge and mentality can some day get along and help the next wipes players when they inevitably roll in out of interest

It only boils down to that because BSG have refused to fix known problems and imbalances for so long. Tired of under performing gaming companies lumping it back onto players to find a way to enjoy their game. Games used to be made for enjoyment.

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toadster

Maybe some easy way to engage this problem could be some "gateway" to be apart from full fledged players. Maybe with something like a Gearscore or that all pre-lvl 10 are separated from the other players - like kind of "entry servers".

On the other hand i personally like the struggling and also the feeling when i win against a fully armored guy while i´m just lvl 5 :D

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GavHill

While I agree that the pre level 10 in any kind of mid wipe situation is an absolute slog, several of the fixes suggested have already been completely ruled out by BSG. The first and foremost being separating lobbies. BSG has categorically said it will not happen.

Things that have happened though are in the recent patch medical healing being free for players under level 5, which I think should honestly be level 10 but there ya go.

A good suggestions was to increase early mod ability, while new players don't always have a lot of cash, being able to put even a few attachments on a gun can make all the difference. A nice lil muzzle brake and an average scope can change a bog standard unmodded AK into something that can actually be aimed and fired at an enemy.

I think there are productive ways to help early players, and not very productive ways to help. Shielding players from high levels until level 10, would only make it so you think you're actually doing pretty well, then you hit 10 and get utterly smashed instead of actually struggling earlier while you have the free healing.

I'd also support reduced scav run timers while both the PMC and Scav are under level 10. I wouldn't support it above Scav level 10 because that just allows people to really exploit it by building up a lot of stuff without running PMC at all, so I'd suggest it be a "whichever hits 10 first means you go back to normal timers"

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gkcx2002
6 hours ago, GavHill said:

While I agree that the pre level 10 in any kind of mid wipe situation is an absolute slog, several of the fixes suggested have already been completely ruled out by BSG. The first and foremost being separating lobbies. BSG has categorically said it will not happen.

Things that have happened though are in the recent patch medical healing being free for players under level 5, which I think should honestly be level 10 but there ya go.

A good suggestions was to increase early mod ability, while new players don't always have a lot of cash, being able to put even a few attachments on a gun can make all the difference. A nice lil muzzle brake and an average scope can change a bog standard unmodded AK into something that can actually be aimed and fired at an enemy.

I think there are productive ways to help early players, and not very productive ways to help. Shielding players from high levels until level 10, would only make it so you think you're actually doing pretty well, then you hit 10 and get utterly smashed instead of actually struggling earlier while you have the free healing.

I'd also support reduced scav run timers while both the PMC and Scav are under level 10.

Quote

I wouldn't support it above Scav level 10 because that just allows people to really exploit it by building up a lot of stuff without running PMC at all,

so I'd suggest it be a "whichever hits 10 first means you go back to normal timers"

By level 7 I had 14 milliion Rubles in my stash and had a full stash of modded weapons from just doing scav raids. At the point I had extracted maybe a half a dozen times with my PMC and only killed 3 pmcs with that bank roll in my stash. So it can be exploited before level 10. 

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MadDrZ
1 hour ago, gkcx2002 said:

By level 7 I had 14 milliion Rubles in my stash and had a full stash of modded weapons from just doing scav raids. At the point I had extracted maybe a half a dozen times with my PMC and only killed 3 pmcs with that bank roll in my stash. So it can be exploited before level 10. 

Assuming you mean a level 7 PMC, no thats not *really* an exploit because both your scavs and PMCs level up seperately. As you scav more and earn experience your average scav becomes better whether it be more valuable barter goods or more likely to have helmets/armors etc, you get the idea. So if you dedicate yourself to just scavving and neglect the PMC long enough, then of course you can earn millions just scavving, after all they are just randonly equipped throwaway characters. Additionally i wouldnt say 14 million is insane, isnt that the cost of like a THICC case or one of the rarer lab key cards off the market? I havent checked in a long time so idk but 40 million is usually in the "rich" category

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MadDrZ
8 hours ago, GavHill said:

I think there are productive ways to help early players, and not very productive ways to help. Shielding players from high levels until level 10, would only make it so you think you're actually doing pretty well, then you hit 10 and get utterly smashed instead of actually struggling earlier while you have the free healing.

Theyre all suggestions and they all come with potential ups in down in terms of the future of the gameplay, however there needs to be a unique balance. As i've said its really unusual that the bambi players have to play more on their toes and more perfectly then the higher level players since the bambies are considered lucky to survive any shot, meanwhile someone with access to the flea market can equip the fat armor and good bullets and just play risk free in most instances. Additionally i would like to point out the "smashing" things, to be honest when people first start playing this game and decide to scav first, they get smashed regardless in the future, you literally go from only a few active enemies while being a scav, to everyone being your enemy as a PMC and with the aim bot scavs, you eventually just get smashed on. We've just accepted that as part of the game at this point and learned to enjoy it

22 hours ago, Musashii89 said:

It only boils down to that because BSG have refused to fix known problems and imbalances for so long. Tired of under performing gaming companies lumping it back onto players to find a way to enjoy their game. Games used to be made for enjoyment.

I can agree to some of this, but we should probably be a little more lenient in the case of this game, after all isnt it like in .14? or something far away from completion. Us playing now and submitting our complaints and suggestions now shape the game later down the line, we just chose to willingly accept it now lol

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