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Spectator6

Why not make medical items "containers", allow hotkeys as actions rather than items?

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Spectator6

Now that heavy bleeds are in the game, players now have potentially two more medical items they need to juggle and manage.

It's entirely possible, then, for players to have 8-10+ slots of space dedicated to nothing but medical items.

If only there were containers designed specifically for carrying and using a wide variety of medical items... Something like a zippable pouch that could be carried on one's person... Something like, say, an...

IFAK

mojo-ifak-bag-open-front-advanced-coyote-brown.thumb.jpg.fb55e091002ec00d2b0343b278e9c6d7.jpg

Which got me thinking of two possible improvements...

1. Rework applicable medical items to function as containers

For example, an IFAK could hold a predefined assortment of medical items:

  • 6 minor bleed bandages
  • 1 large bleed bandage
  • 6 "health" recovery doses
  • 1 splint
  • 1 tourniquet

As each item is used/depleted, it is removed from the IFAK. The player is then able to refill it with supplies found in raid or, when out of raid, from his stash.

And different medical "containers" could allow for a unique assortment of goods to better differentiate their purpose beyond simply their size. So maybe a CAR Kit allows:

  • 6 minor bleed bandages
  • 4 "health" recovery doses
  • 1 splint

2. Action-specific keybinds

One way this could all be tied together from a user experience point of view is that rather than hotkeying specific medical items (ie 4 is a bandage, 5 is AI-2, etc) the user would instead be hotkeying different actions.

  • 4 = apply bandage
  • 5 = increase health
  • 6 = take painkiller
  • 7 = apply splint/tourniquet

And as long as he has his medical container in his rig or pockets, with bandages available, he'll be able to "apply bandage". 

The purpose of this is that it would help streamline how the user interacts with medical items while still allowing the more intricate elements of EFT's medical aspects to shine through.

Because, in real life, if a person is trying to stop bleeding and wants to wrap up his arm, he's not going to accidentally grab a painkiller and start trying to wrap it around his wound.

In the same way, then, with this different approach the player is instructing his character what he wants the character to try to do and, if the character has the needed supplies then he'll fulfill the action.

-----

Thoughts? Improvements?

Edited by Spectator6
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jockmcplop

This is really good idea imo.

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Spectator6
1 minute ago, jockmcplop said:

This is really good idea imo.

Thank you @jockmcplop!

Anything in particular stand out to you? Any way to make it better?

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Spectator6

Something that came up in the Reddit discussion with u/Kavorg is the fact that, for many players, there's a certain thrill/panic that comes from having to be "hands-on" when patching up your character.

The concern is that abstracting things out to "action hotkeys" may remove some of that immersion.

So maybe we can do a hybrid of sorts?

Allow for medical containers, but have something like an IFAK be a hotkeyed item that is displayed on-screen, with its contents hotkeyed as another "layer" (ie 4 could bring up the IFAK and 4 could also "apply bandage". OR, if we prefer to keep with the specific item, the user could set 4 to be the specific bandage)

Here's a quick and dirty mock-up for how that might look

image17.thumb.png.1a79d6e3299008025d2fcaa17c80a78d.png

Thoughts? Improvements?

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Spectator6

To counter the "OP"-ness of being able to jam pack an assortment of meds into what essentially becomes a single or two-cell item

  • Maybe enlarge the size so it takes up more space
  • Maybe have it be a dedicated area for certain rig layouts
  • Maybe limit the number of medical containers allowed on a player

The idea here being that if the player wants to be loaded to the gills with medical equipment, he'll have to bring out, say, the larger Grizzly pack or even something like the medical backpack rather than bring, say six fully packed one-cell each IFAK's (which I agree, could be very overpowered and unbalanced).

As for the size of IFAK's, to see it in context, here are some reference images

spacer.png

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Edited by Spectator6

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Awake

Maybe a dev can confirm or deny this, but I think I remember the devs talking about this topic before and they mentioned that customizable 'med packs' will come.

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Spectator6
4 minutes ago, Awake said:

Maybe a dev can confirm or deny this, but I think I remember the devs talking about this topic before and they mentioned that customizable 'med packs' will come.

Oh, that'd be awesome! Thanks for the heads-up @Awake!

One of the things that has always bugged me about the current system is that a single IFAK can be used to either apply a bandage X number of times or increase health Y number of times. When in reality, there's no way the IFAK has 50 rolls of bandages in it (just making up a number). 

In this way, it may be more applicable to have an IFAK "run out" of bandages yet still be able to apply other medical needs.

That's kind of the other push behind this idea as well.

Edited by Spectator6

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jockmcplop
5 hours ago, Spectator6 said:

Thank you @jockmcplop!

Anything in particular stand out to you? Any way to make it better?

I just like the immersion. Med boxes not being refillable just isn't the way it works in real life and its one of those cases where it would actually make the game easier and more convenient to have it more realistic so why not?
I also think painkillers should be injected to have instant effect. Pills would basically do nothing in a raid setting. 

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DahToaster

Came to give this topic some much-deserved attention

 

I think an important part of this is that it needs to be properly balanced. What I was thinking is, if the CAR/Salewa/IFAK/Grizzly were all converteted to containers, it could look something like this:

-IFAK retains its 1x1 space, opens up to maybe a 2x3 or 3x3? It can take HP recovery (AI-2) and bloodloss items (bandage/army bandage/tourniquets/hemostatics). MAYBE a splint, I think that'd be reasonable but doesn't necessarily fit into realism because of their size.

-Salewas also retain their 1x2 space, and open up to 3x3 or so. They can take everything the IFAK can, plus pain medicines. This gives them a decent trade-off between utility and size, making it a reasonable choice between the IFAK and Salewa.

-Grizzlies will retain their 2x2 space, and have the most utility. They can take everything the others can, PLUS stims. They have something like a 3x4 space? It's important they remain a 2x2, as it means that even players with an alpha container can still reasonable bring it into a raid. It would even still remain a QOL improvement for them, considering how many players with an alpha container fill it entirely with meds.

 

I'm having trouble imagining how CARs would fit into it, but I'm imagining they'd probably just be a smaller version of the Salewa? Honestly the CAR is in a rather useless spot at the moment as it stands now that it lost its ability to stop bleeds. Let me know how this sounds. Obviously, the cost for each would skyrocket (as it does with any useful container).

 

Edit:

I also think a hotkey to open should remain, however there shouldn't be hotkeys to instantly use what's inside. The convenience of having them all internally stores should trade off with you having to manually use them.

Edited by DahToaster
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Spectator6
1 hour ago, DahToaster said:

Came to give this topic some much-deserved attention

 

I think an important part of this is that it needs to be properly balanced. What I was thinking is, if the CAR/Salewa/IFAK/Grizzly were all converteted to containers, it could look something like this:

-IFAK retains its 1x1 space, opens up to maybe a 2x3 or 3x3? It can take HP recovery (AI-2) and bloodloss items (bandage/army bandage/tourniquets/hemostatics). MAYBE a splint, I think that'd be reasonable but doesn't necessarily fit into realism because of their size.

-Salewas also retain their 1x2 space, and open up to 3x3 or so. They can take everything the IFAK can, plus pain medicines. This gives them a decent trade-off between utility and size, making it a reasonable choice between the IFAK and Salewa.

-Grizzlies will retain their 2x2 space, and have the most utility. They can take everything the others can, PLUS stims. They have something like a 3x4 space? It's important they remain a 2x2, as it means that even players with an alpha container can still reasonable bring it into a raid. It would even still remain a QOL improvement for them, considering how many players with an alpha container fill it entirely with meds.

 

I'm having trouble imagining how CARs would fit into it, but I'm imagining they'd probably just be a smaller version of the Salewa? Honestly the CAR is in a rather useless spot at the moment as it stands now that it lost its ability to stop bleeds. Let me know how this sounds. Obviously, the cost for each would skyrocket (as it does with any useful container).

 

Edit:

I also think a hotkey to open should remain, however there shouldn't be hotkeys to instantly use what's inside. The convenience of having them all internally stores should trade off with you having to manually use them.

Thank you @DahToaster, it was a pleasure discussing this with you further on the Reddit thread!

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davidj123456

Honestly I would really love to see this just as long as all the animations get to stay (BSG pls).
Different rigs and backpacks and clothings could have slots for this sort of stuff.

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Naqel

I'd rather see things go in the exact OPPOSITE direction,  with medical items becoming more difficult to bring into a raid in large quantities.

A proper IFAK is definitely not the size of half a mag, and a lot of items in the game already have bogus small sizes (grenades especially).

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Spectator6
5 minutes ago, Naqel said:

I'd rather see things go in the exact OPPOSITE direction,  with medical items becoming more difficult to bring into a raid in large quantities.

A proper IFAK is definitely not the size of half a mag, and a lot of items in the game already have bogus small sizes (grenades especially).

Hi @Naqel!  Yeah, something being discussed on the reddit thread  is enlarging the exterior sizes and/or changing how they are carried. Rather than having them be "loose" containers, maybe having them "attached" to a rig in some way.

Would any of that make it more worthwhile in your opinion? 

Anything else we could consider?

21 minutes ago, davidj123456 said:

Honestly I would really love to see this just as long as all the animations get to stay (BSG pls).
Different rigs and backpacks and clothings could have slots for this sort of stuff.

Yeah, the anims are sick :)

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Spectator6

Here are some additional suggestions from the reddit thread:

  • EDIT 2: /u/Jarmak13 points out that it's common to have tourniquets attached individually for quick access. Makes me wonder if customizable rigs will allow for items like this to be attached to the shoulder straps...
  • EDIT 3: For those concerned about a lack of variety among "standardized" IFAK contents, perhaps they could easily come out with different layouts commonly used by various branches (Army, Air Force, USMC, etc, along with their Russian counterparts). Just slightly change the colors/skin used on the IFAK to differentiate. Thanks to u/GHOLIcat for the discussion
  • EDIT 4: /u/garett01 suggested that military style rigs (ie NOT the scav vests of the world) could have a separate "slot" dedicated to whatever medical container the player wishes to equip in that space. Think of it like the compass slot, but lootable by other players. Civilian rigs/garments, on the other hand, would not have this slot, meaning these players would need to carry loose medical items in their pockets/etc.

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Spectator6

EDIT 5: Some have expressed they like how the current system allows players to knock out two-birds-with-one-stone by being able to heal and stop bleeds at the same time with an IFAK/Salewa/etc.

u/RugTumpington suggested, what if different medical containers allow for this type of "double-up" functionality as one of their perks?

For example, let's say the player has an IFAK and that IFAK's have this "two for one" perk. The player presses 4, it "opens up" his IFAK. And if he selects a "heal" item, it simultaneously "uses/depletes" a bandage in the background to stop a bleed. Or, if desired, the player could choose a "bandage" action individually without any heal (kind of like how bandages work right now).

The difference here being that the bandage count is something that is actually "tracked" as a separate item within the container rather than as a "generic/catch-all" 300/300 points like we have now. So if the IFAK "runs out" of bandages, heal actions would then only heal and no longer bandage.

And, of course, the contents of the IFAK could be replenished with items found-in-raid according to its allowed "layout". (Thanks also to u/MassiveZucc for discussing further!)

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RACWAR

Definitely a YES from me!

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Spectator6
5 minutes ago, RACWAR said:

Definitely a YES from me!

Hello @RACWAR, thank you brother!

Anything in particular stand out to you?

Edited by Spectator6

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Naqel
17 hours ago, Spectator6 said:

Would any of that make it more worthwhile in your opinion? 

Anything else we could consider?

We are, fundamentally, playing a videogame: having a one button tool for most of our needs that works on a "charge" basis is a good compromise between realism and playability.
Not having to fumble with a bandage separately to healing is ultimately for the best, especially that those actions are usually analogous in videogames.

There is nothing here, or in the reddit thread, that would make the idea of replacing "300 total, 30 to bandage, 1:1 for healing" with "X heals + X bandages + X other" sound like a good idea. We do not need medkits to bring in even more micro-management.

Having a dedicated med pouch is also a bad idea for the pacing of gameplay and squad specialization, since it opens other slots in your rig to carry even more obscene amounts of grenades (which are way too tiny) and ammo (which is also ridiculously tiny when unloaded and shoved up the bum), at the same time as emergency meds.
We are, fundamentally, playing a videogame: even if you could carry all this junk on you realistically, there has to be some choices to make beyond "can I afford to do it?"

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keyciraptor

thats really a good idea. i cant imagine how people without gamma are playing right now because i am going in raids with almost full gamma, only with medics:

3 slot survkit for black or broken limbs

2 slot saliwa for light and heavy bleeding and general healing

1 slot vaseline

1 slot injection, usually sj1 or sj6

usually have my sicc with me and thats it, 9 of 9 slots are full^^

 

Sry for people with only 4 slot alpha containers, thats really a joke. They either lose a lot money when they bring every medic with in raid and die or they simply dont bring medic for every condition but die cause of it... xD

 

Somewhat reworking it would be amazing. But i guess it would be far off the realistic stuff, i mean jumping of the 3 floor without to humble or anything, instantly ready to shoot and adadad around only cause you lubricated your lips with vaseline is totally ok but beside that, everything else is just not realistic xD

Edited by keyciraptor
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RACWAR
27 minutes ago, Spectator6 said:

Hello @RACWAR, thank you brother!

Anything in particular stand out to you?

Well, one thing that I thought might be less optimal, is that you then would have even more items bound to your hotkeys for meds as before. Leaving less space for other items such a grenades to be bound as well.

On 10/21/2020 at 4:21 PM, Spectator6 said:

2. Action-specific keybinds

One way this could all be tied together from a user experience point of view is that rather than hotkeying specific medical items (ie 4 is a bandage, 5 is AI-2, etc) the user would instead be hotkeying different actions.

  • 4 = apply bandage
  • 5 = increase health
  • 6 = take painkiller
  • 7 = apply splint/tourniquet

Right now you can press one key, and that will heal and bandage at the same time, but the idea with the IFAK only being a container would take that benefit away.

BUT

I really like the addition in this part:

On 10/21/2020 at 6:57 PM, Spectator6 said:

Here's a quick and dirty mock-up for how that might look

I really liked the mock-up image, and I think that, if a particular hotkey would always be set to "open IFAK" or "open Salewa", which then brings up the overlay menu with the container as shown in the image, which then could overwrite your keybinds for your grenades and other items you have bound for as long as this medical container menu is open - I think that would solve the issue of taking up too many hotkeys, white at the same time providing a more manual and gritty way of aiding your character, which I like, since it would be more realistic.

It would also take away the "healing while running", which is something I really don't like. And it would slow down gameplay, making healing yourself a more critical moment that you can't just squeeze in while dodging in and out of rooms in the middle of a firefight.

13 minutes ago, Naqel said:

Not having to fumble with a bandage

But that's exactly what would make this idea so great.

As I've written above:

1 minute ago, RACWAR said:

white at the same time providing a more manual and gritty way of aiding your character, which I like, since it would be more realistic.

It would also take away the "healing while running", which is something I really don't like. And it would slow down gameplay, making healing yourself a more critical moment that you can't just squeeze in while dodging in and out of rooms in the middle of a firefight.

 

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Spectator6

@Naqel

Thanks again for your input!

Maybe I'm misreading it a bit, but I'm a little confused by some of what you're saying.

25 minutes ago, Naqel said:

We do not need medkits to bring in even more micro-management.

Being able to aggregate medical items into a dedicated slot makes them **MORE** accessible, no?

Being able to use an "action hotkey" rather than a specific item hotkey makes the medical interaction **MORE** consistent and streamlined, no?

It seems to me, then, the only thing that may introduce a bit more "micro-management" would be that a medical container's contents would become the responsibility of the player to keep and eye on and refill, etc. Is that your main observation as well?

25 minutes ago, Naqel said:

Having a dedicated med pouch is also a bad idea for the pacing of gameplay and squad specialization, since it opens other slots in your rig to carry even more obscene amounts of grenades (which are way too tiny) and ammo (which is also ridiculously tiny when unloaded and shoved up the bum), at the same time as emergency meds.

If you're arguing that some of the relative external sizes could use a second pass, then I'll agree with you there :) 

Can you explain a bit more what you mean in regard to pacing? Would having to interact with the IFAK container make it "too slow" in your opinion? 

Personally, it maybe interesting to experiment with having medical treatment become a bit more a dedicated action. For example, it may be interesting that whenever a player "opens up" his IFAK, his character stops and goes into an "in rig" pose (ie, it's not a "free" peek).

11 minutes ago, RACWAR said:

Right now you can press one key, and that will heal and bandage at the same time, but the idea with the IFAK only being a container would take that benefit away.

See EDIT 5 here

This would be a way to keep the "two for one" healing+bandaging actions, have them tied to specific medical container types as part of their "perks".

11 minutes ago, RACWAR said:

It would also take away the "healing while running", which is something I really don't like. And it would slow down gameplay, making healing yourself a more critical moment that you can't just squeeze in while dodging in and out of rooms in the middle of a firefight.

Yes, I'd welcome that improvement as well, good observation! As I mention above, "accessing" a medical pouch could be similar to accessing your inventory. The player stops and has an "in inventory" pose. This would prevent players from getting a "free peek" while moving/running/parkouringlikeakangaroo.

Edited by Spectator6
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Angrybiker

I like the idea of having some kind of 'medbag slot'.

Not had chance yet to read the reddit stuff and only had a quick glance through this thread as I'm cooking and have 3 kids running riot but if it's not already been suggested:

An Idea to deal with the multiple bound hotkeys issue and eliminate the quick hit of a predefined key for an action. Why not have a specific key to open the 'medbag' slot which is then held and use mouse scroll wheel to select the appropriate or desired item. Much like the select mag when R is held. It's obviously more time consuming than just hitting a key to say apply a bandage for a small bleed and wouldn't remove any immersion for those that like it, as some thought would be needed to select what you wanted.

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Spectator6

Hello @Angrybiker thank you for participating :) Sounds like you're multi-tasking like a pro over there!

4 minutes ago, Angrybiker said:

It's obviously more time consuming than just hitting a key to say apply a bandage for a small bleed and wouldn't remove any immersion for those that like it, as some thought would be needed to select what you wanted.

Maybe... One of the main ideas right now is to have it "function" like a separate inventory screen to mimic how the player needs to open/access/look-into the IFAK to find what he wants. 

See this quick-n-dirty mockup as a rough example

https://imgur.com/3MmNBcS

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Angrybiker
8 minutes ago, Spectator6 said:

Maybe... One of the main ideas right now is to have it "function" like a separate inventory screen to mimic how the player needs to open/access/look-into the IFAK to find what he wants. 

See this quick-n-dirty mockup as a rough example

https://imgur.com/3MmNBcS

Yep I'm understanding what you mean now mate, gonna sit down and have a look through the Reddit shortly.

It's definitely a brilliant Idea. It would certainly help out Alpha container users until they can get the bigger containers unlocked(I know, I am one haha).

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Naqel
1 hour ago, Spectator6 said:

Being able to aggregate medical items into a dedicated slot makes them **MORE** accessible, no?

Everything can already be aggregated by using the item durability mechanic, that's what the Grizzly FAK is for, and it could be reasonably applied to other kits (old and new) without changing the design.
It is an acceptable breach or realism: your supplies last for less, but you always have the right ones.
 

1 hour ago, Spectator6 said:

Can you explain a bit more what you mean in regard to pacing? Would having to interact with the IFAK container make it "too slow" in your opinion? 

"Too slow" is not the complaint I am making here. That would be an improvement.

But if people suddenly found themselves in possession of extra slots in their rigs and/pockets they would almost inevitably fill those slots with grenades and ammo, which we are already able to bring far too much into the Raid.
This would, in turn, likely promote an even more aggressive "shoot everything" play-style from the people who can afford it.

I will concede however on item size balancing possibly resolving this issue pre-emptively.

1 hour ago, Spectator6 said:

Personally, it maybe interesting to experiment with having medical treatment become a bit more a dedicated action. For example, it may be interesting that whenever a player "opens up" his IFAK, his character stops and goes into an "in rig" pose (ie, it's not a "free" peek).

Much like my first point, this too can be achieved without altering the design and merely changing the implementation.
Some people already store key medical tools (surgery kits and injectors) in Secure Containers that require the inventory to be opened, the safety of a container is a fair sacrifice for not having them assigned to a hotkey.

Making the more potent and valuable medical items not fit into a rig achieves organically (through interactions of existing systems) something that the proposed change would make arbitrary (a strict and dedicated rule), on top of requiring design time and effort beyond number changes.

Edited by Naqel

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