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etra_kurdaj

Unintended Consequences of the new Heavy Bleed mechanic

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etra_kurdaj
  • You can get fractures, so you need to pack a splint.
  • You can get bleeds, so you need to pack bandages. Or wait, all bleeds can be resolved through health kits, except for the cheese.
  • You can get heavy bleeds, so you need either a unique bandage or a more specific health kit. Maybe more than 1; depends on how much safety margin you feel comfortable about.
  • You can get blacked limbs, so you need a surgery kit.
  • You can get pain effects, so you need painkillers.

The point of mentioning all of the above is the game is steadily heaping more and more "needs" on the PMC. If you expect to extract alive, any serious PMC will need all of the above. Where is the PMC expected to store all of this? In the secure container? What about standard account players? Is the EOD mandatory for the purpose of having the space to bring a "complete" medical inventory?

How many slots has BSG budgeted to be "reserved" by mandatory "needs" in the PMC's inventory?

If these are needs the game expects the player to sacrifice inventory slots for, what is going to be the solution for player scavs, who typically spawn with far less? Will player scav spawn-loot-pools receive a buff vis a vie medical supplies?

What "expectations" does BSG have for the ideal PMC who expects to survive and extract after several combat encounters?

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davidj123456

Game is meant to be hard. Surviving is meant to be hard.
BSG have said this many times. 

If you are Standard Account; Epsilon Container is very easy to get.

Epsilon: CMS Kit, SICC Case, Golden Star/Ibuprofen, Stack of Ammo (for packing), Aluminium Splint, eTG-c Stimulant
Gamma: Replace CMS Kit with Surv12 Kit
Kappa: Same as Gamma but I would now also bring a MULE Stimulant, Extra Stack of Ammo (for packing), and an AKS-74U Gas Tube with a XRSU47SU Hanguard (for enemy attachments)

In my Rig EVERY RAID I PLAY I have: Salewa/IFAK/CAR, Propital Stimulant, AI-2 Cheese, Army Bandage, CALOK-B Hemostatic (in total all of this takes up 5-6 slots in my rig).
 

You have more than enough space. Learn to use it.

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Zeroa
10 minutes ago, etra_kurdaj said:
  • You can get fractures, so you need to pack a splint.
  • You can get bleeds, so you need to pack bandages. Or wait, all bleeds can be resolved through health kits, except for the cheese.
  • You can get heavy bleeds, so you need either a unique bandage or a more specific health kit. Maybe more than 1; depends on how much safety margin you feel comfortable about.
  • You can get blacked limbs, so you need a surgery kit.
  • You can get pain effects, so you need painkillers.

Fractures / Blacked Limbs
Light Bleeds / Heavy Bleeds
Pain Effects

Fractures / Blacked Limbs
= 3 Inventory Spaces
- 1 Surv12 Kit = 3 Inventory Spaces
or
- 1 Alu Splint & 1 CMS Kit = 3 Inventory Spaces

Light Bleeds / Heavy Bleeds = 2 Inventory Spaces
- 1 Salewa = 2 Inventory Spaces
or
- 1 IFAK & 1 Hemostat = 2 Inventory Spaces

Pain Effects = 1 Inventory Space
- 1 Pack of Painkillers = 1 Inventory Space
or
- 1 Ibuprofen = 1 Inventory Space
or
- 1 Vaseline = 1 Inventory Space
or
- 1 Goldenstar = 1 Inventory Space
or
- 1 Propitol = 1 Inventory Space

There are tons of combinations of medical items that can be created, the above being some of my own personal use examples.  It is also up to the player how many of items (6 Required Slots Total) are stored in the secure container for future use in the case of death.  Players that have not purchased different bundle options or done quests to get larger secure containers still only need to store two of the inventory spaces outside of the secure container, which in my opinion, can be very cheap (example, storing the painkillers and hemostat in the pockets) as they are easily replaceable.

I hope this helps! Good luck!

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Nameless_Terror

I think the point your missing OP is that being shot is a traumatic event. Despite it being the main draw to the game for many, PVP is not the main goal. Surviving the raid is. The heavy bleed is a good step I guess but over all I wish they were less forgiving of injuries in raid. Out of raid healing is silly.  

I extract often without needing my meds. I either win the fight before I was seen or I don't see it coming is often the case. I still won't do anything but a suicidal run on factory without salewa, painkiller, and a splint, but unless I'm "people hunting" on a larger map I wouldn't bother with lots of meds or surgical kits. You really don't have to fight if you don't want to most of the time. 

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SkyCloud

The idea is not to get shot. You need to take responsiblity of your survival. If you get shot how so ever, you should need any and every kind of equipment which can save your life.

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Bracobe

The thing that make silly to me is to need two different things for heavy bleed and light bleed. Anything that can take care of a heavy bleed can surly take care of a light bleed.  While it may wasteful and unpractical it is not undoable.

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Xeraphas
4 hours ago, etra_kurdaj said:
  • Is the EOD mandatory for the purpose of having the space to bring a "complete" medical inventory?

 

It's starting to feel like more and more of a combat advantage to have to space slots at this point just pack a glizzy in the alpha is what Im about to start doing and I haven't even been bringing keys into raids because of space issues. I wish we had a keybar/sicc/docs slot like the compass slot where we don't need to use the case for it.

Being able to start with gamma you can basically have your glizzy/cms and still have 3 spaces while an alpha has to risk that stuff =/

They said they were going to add that 1x1 med pouch but they still haven't and idk why since it would be easy af to program since there is already the meds case and med backpack they already have all the container logic and all they really have to do is decide to add that in unless they decide not to because they make more money selling gammas.

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Schaefer

Why do you have to pack your medical stuff into your safe container?

There are a lot of options for rigs and backpacks with more then enough space.

There are even two backpacks that are only meant for medical items.

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Xeraphas
5 minutes ago, Schaefer said:

Why do you have to pack your medical stuff into your safe container?

There are a lot of options for rigs and backpacks with more then enough space.

There are even two backpacks that are only meant for medical items.

Because you can't get back meds/ammo in insurance. You lose it when you die if it's not in your container. They add more and more meds and medical conditions and you risk more and more money from carrying those new meds. 

The alternative is having eod and not risking that money.

Edited by Xeraphas

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Schaefer

The alternative is to just risk loosing your stuff.

The game is not about hoarding money.

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BrettB
5 hours ago, Nameless_Terror said:

Despite it being the main draw to the game for many, PVP is not the main goal. Surviving the raid is.

This. 1000%

Its not called a firefight in tarkov.

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Xeraphas
1 hour ago, BrettB said:

This. 1000%

Its not called a firefight in tarkov.

You die you respawn. Unless that were to change the main goal is to get kills/money. There is no reason to survive besides getting a bit more xp or keeping the stuff you found.

Surviving is easy you can just camp and the game sucks and then I mind as well go play other games which is what I have been doing a lot because I just feel like tarkov isn't worth the time you put into it anymore. 

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BrettB

I couldnt disagree with you any more.

Getting kills means eliminating a threat = survive

Getting money = buying better protection to, you guessed it survive.

I know you already know this, but its not Counter-Strike

Edited by BrettB
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etra_kurdaj
On 10/23/2020 at 6:17 PM, Zeroa said:

Fractures / Blacked Limbs
Light Bleeds / Heavy Bleeds
Pain Effects

Fractures / Blacked Limbs
= 3 Inventory Spaces
- 1 Surv12 Kit = 3 Inventory Spaces
or
- 1 Alu Splint & 1 CMS Kit = 3 Inventory Spaces

Light Bleeds / Heavy Bleeds = 2 Inventory Spaces
- 1 Salewa = 2 Inventory Spaces
or
- 1 IFAK & 1 Hemostat = 2 Inventory Spaces

Pain Effects = 1 Inventory Space
- 1 Pack of Painkillers = 1 Inventory Space
or
- 1 Ibuprofen = 1 Inventory Space
or
- 1 Vaseline = 1 Inventory Space
or
- 1 Goldenstar = 1 Inventory Space
or
- 1 Propitol = 1 Inventory Space

There are tons of combinations of medical items that can be created, the above being some of my own personal use examples.  It is also up to the player how many of items (6 Required Slots Total) are stored in the secure container for future use in the case of death.  Players that have not purchased different bundle options or done quests to get larger secure containers still only need to store two of the inventory spaces outside of the secure container, which in my opinion, can be very cheap (example, storing the painkillers and hemostat in the pockets) as they are easily replaceable.

I hope this helps! Good luck!

So to answer my questions in order:

Quote

Where is the PMC expected to store all of this? In the secure container? What about standard account players? Is the EOD mandatory for the purpose of having the space to bring a "complete" medical inventory?

How many slots has BSG budgeted to be "reserved" by mandatory "needs" in the PMC's inventory?

The player is expected to "budget" about six slots towards medical items. Raiding with fewer than 6 slots worth of meds is running a risk, reducing survivability for loot potential. 

EOD is mandatory in the sense of not having to replace lost medical items constantly. Especially if secure container reform goes through, and items can only be removed from it and not added to it, then the SC will become a de facto med bag (which it probably should be anyway).

Quote

If these are needs the game expects the player to sacrifice inventory slots for, what is going to be the solution for player scavs, who typically spawn with far less? Will player scav spawn-loot-pools receive a buff vis a vie medical supplies?

Player scavs are SOL. They'll just be hard-mode.

Quote

What "expectations" does BSG have for the ideal PMC who expects to survive and extract after several combat encounters?

The ideal PMC will be prepared for all status effects at a budget of six inventory slots. 

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Fumungus

i have EOD, mainly to support the game. the extras items u get are kinda redundant to me, the gamma is nice but the epsilon was sufficient. 

i carry an ifak and hemo bandage in pockets. i carry a 5 piece splint, pain meds and cms in secure container  with SICC case for keys and money.

recently i will carry a salewa instead   i also noticed that the grizzly heals most ailments so i have considered taking one into raid to replace most meds.

 

a recent run on interchange (which i barely play) saw me take the usual meds into game and i almost bled to death before finding a car kit in emercom. basically all scav battles and my arm got blacked out 3 times.

 

scav play is just that. you are a scavenger. if u know the maps u can find what u want usually. most scavs recently have been spawning with decent equipment and some meds. i spawned on woods with an sv98 and thermal scope, factory key and exp fuel tank. that was a wild mission 

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revplague

So what you are stating it seems, correct me if im wrong, is that you rather loot more then have medical supplies. The only thing keep in my gamma is my sicc case, extra ammo and other slots are for lets say graphics cards , tetris , ledx. There are plenty of options for medical supplies. The hemo stat takes up 1 cell just like a bandage BUT has 3 uses. I usually keep a surv or a cms kit in my backpack. An either a car kit or a ifak in my rig with pks in pocket. Its absolutely feasible and not a hassle to do, you just have to balance loot to wanting to extract. 

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Salted1337

Salewa in your vest with maybe an IFAK extra if you're looking to hold W. Put a grizzly and surv12 in your container if you're EOD. Problem solved. Grizzly will fix most injuries and they are dirt cheap nowadays and spawn bare places. Plus it has 1800 hp. You can run that grizzly for a long time before having to replace it. Sure it's not the most efficient because it's 2x2 but it's a game changer if you're aggressive and you don't want to keep buying meds over and over.

If you're not EOD, get epsilon ASAP and you can run grizzly with CMS instead.

Edited by Salted1337

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GentlemanJ

The game is not tailored to make you comfortable. I started out with standard edition, ended up upgrading to EoD to support the game because I have sinked over 60 hours within 3 weeks.
Sure, having a huge Gamma container helps a lot, I'm not going to lie, but my meds go into my backpack/rig so I can secure container space for SICC and roubles/etc....
The game is supposed to feel hard, and I love that they actually managed to make it feel that way.

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Sivisoko

Hi Salted1337 and GentlmanJ,

 

Consider moving your private conflict on who is better to private messages, as you are spamming thread with personal conflict etc.

 

Thanks,

Sivisoko

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Lunat1cX
On 10/23/2020 at 8:56 PM, etra_kurdaj said:
  • You can get fractures, so you need to pack a splint.
  • You can get bleeds, so you need to pack bandages. Or wait, all bleeds can be resolved through health kits, except for the cheese.
  • You can get heavy bleeds, so you need either a unique bandage or a more specific health kit. Maybe more than 1; depends on how much safety margin you feel comfortable about.
  • You can get blacked limbs, so you need a surgery kit.
  • You can get pain effects, so you need painkillers.

The point of mentioning all of the above is the game is steadily heaping more and more "needs" on the PMC. If you expect to extract alive, any serious PMC will need all of the above. Where is the PMC expected to store all of this? In the secure container? What about standard account players? Is the EOD mandatory for the purpose of having the space to bring a "complete" medical inventory?

How many slots has BSG budgeted to be "reserved" by mandatory "needs" in the PMC's inventory?

If these are needs the game expects the player to sacrifice inventory slots for, what is going to be the solution for player scavs, who typically spawn with far less? Will player scav spawn-loot-pools receive a buff vis a vie medical supplies?

What "expectations" does BSG have for the ideal PMC who expects to survive and extract after several combat encounters?

Nikita said so himself that this game is meant to be a "fighting simulator in a hazardous environment." He never said that this game to meant to be fun for everyone who plays it. Just get used to it or don't play if you can't handle it. 

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etra_kurdaj
5 hours ago, Lunat1cX said:

Nikita said so himself that this game is meant to be a "fighting simulator in a hazardous environment." He never said that this game to meant to be fun for everyone who plays it. Just get used to it or don't play if you can't handle it. 

The issue isn't whether the game is hard or not, or whether that difficulty level is good or not - but how do the developers intend for us to play it.

 

Obviously, they have a vision and it is possible to play "wrong", and I'm seeking clarification on the dev's expectations for us.

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etra_kurdaj
10 hours ago, revplague said:

So what you are stating it seems, correct me if im wrong, is that you rather loot more then have medical supplies. The only thing keep in my gamma is my sicc case, extra ammo and other slots are for lets say graphics cards , tetris , ledx. There are plenty of options for medical supplies. The hemo stat takes up 1 cell just like a bandage BUT has 3 uses. I usually keep a surv or a cms kit in my backpack. An either a car kit or a ifak in my rig with pks in pocket. Its absolutely feasible and not a hassle to do, you just have to balance loot to wanting to extract. 

There are two equations in play (in my mind)

  1. maximizing loot. It shouldn't be complicated to simply state that 'more loot space' > 'less loot space'
    1. movement/ergo penalties aside, a smart choice is to always choose 'more loot space'
    2. with loot space being rewarded (by being able to loot more), the player must build a pre-raid kit with that in mind

BUT, you can always shed superfluous items to make room for better items

  1. so it would actually make a lot of sense to enter every raid loaded to the gills with extra ammo and meds, and drop them as-needed to make room for loot. 
  2. In this manner, the player is always optimized for the most amount of combat / combat consequences as needed

But this brings to mind the second equation:

2. reducing annoyance of rebuilding kits 'fewer clicks' > 'more clicks'

  1. players will absolutely pay for the convenience of getting back into the game more quickly. The stash and hideout are neat, but they aren't what anyone would pay to experience - it's all about getting back into a raid ASAP.
  2. the equation of 'more loot space' > 'less loot space' is subverted by this desire, so the equation really is
    1. 'less loot space at greater convenience' > 'more less space at less convenience'
  3. It is a source of friction to players to - in a death streak - rebuild a raiding kit consisting of:
    1. helmet
    2. headphones
    3. face covering
    4. chest rig
    5. backpack
    6. primary weapon (if you have one ready and don't need to build a new one)
    7. mags
    8. correct ammo in mags
    9. grenades
    10. salewa
    11. heavy-bleed bandage
    12. pain meds
    13. splint
    14. surgery kit
    15. stims

You'd be completely justified in calling the player lazy, but being able to skip a third of the above by sacrificing loot space by keeping the multi-use items in the Secure Container

  • Nobody has any expectation that all 12 uses of Ibuprofen will be consumed in a single raid
  • It is also silly to imagine choosing to buy new Ibuprofen's every raid, you'd have selected a different pain med
    • The item only makes sense if you're going to chuck it into your Secure Container and forget about it until you need it
    • same for 5 use Aluminum Splints
    • same for 15 use Surv12 kits
    • same for 65k per use stims

It weighs on the player's mind to waste the unused uses of these multi-use items. You could have been more efficient, instead you're buying and equipping the same item over and over. 

 

To summarize: Why don't players play 100% efficiently all the time, keep their SC's wide-open for loot?

Because it's a pain in the ass to re-buy meds over and over. When you're on your 300th raid of the wipe (my account is at 599), you start looking for shortcuts to make getting into the next raid faster. You make sub-optimal choices because you've decided 'convenience' is more important than 'best'.

It's also why players don't stuff their rig and backpack with spare meds and ammo and shed them as-they-loot. Because doing so costs too much effort. One raid in ten requires more ammo than a 60 rd mag provides, so why would I bring 1000 rounds? One raid in twenty requires more healing than a single salewa provides, so why would I pack 10 of them?

So what does this mean to the developers? The players who enter hundreds, or thousands of raids, are not going to the effort of rethinking their kit for each raid. A 'meta' kit is selected by the player and they're building that - in the quickest way possible - for every raid, and are just living with it.

This is the reality of any arcade-based game design, with a replayable game loop. Players will search more efficiencies, not just efficient ways to win, but also efficient ways to play - with the lowest cost of effort to themselves. It is important to know what the game developers have intended as to how the player should play, so the players can find that 'least effort' path. 

You can disagree, you can call it lazy or sheeplike thinking, but it is what every player is doing once they reach a wealth level where they can afford to do it (unless a quest is forcing them out of this pattern). 

Why do players stuff cheap meds in their SC? Because it's easier to play like that. It's fewer clicks in-between raids. It's more efficient use of high-use items. 

 

I'm really just surprised to find myself needing to convince BSG staffers and forum moderators of these obvious and self-evident truths. 

Don't you guys play the game?

Edited by etra_kurdaj
spelling error

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GeneralBrus

Grinding is not hard, no matter how you see it, as long as the only factor to be successful in getting gear is TIME, then the entire discussion is just incredibly stupid.

On 10/24/2020 at 7:15 AM, Schaefer said:

Why do you have to pack your medical stuff into your safe container?

cuz its expensive, infact ppl are so broke, they actually have gear fear for even something like a car medkit.

Buy hey, since these guys are just casuals and dont even try playing the game we should just all spit on them right?

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N1shazu
On 10/24/2020 at 1:56 AM, etra_kurdaj said:

The point of mentioning all of the above is the game is steadily heaping more and more "needs" on the PMC. If you expect to extract alive, any serious PMC will need all of the above. Where is the PMC expected to store all of this? In the secure container? What about standard account players? Is the EOD mandatory for the purpose of having the space to bring a "complete" medical inventory?

I Understand your point of view but these are problems only for solos.

If you play in a squad (it is supposed to be a team based game after all) you can easily spread out the items between the team members and/or just have one member as a “medic” that brings all the stuff for the team.

Heavy bleeds are a good fresh change to game mechanics, much more penalties for getting shot at are still needed in EFT in my opinion.

 

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Spectator6

@etra_kurdaj

What do you think of something like this?

While I applaud and encourage the heightened risks of getting shot (especially once proper armor hitboxes are implemented), I do wonder,  would allowing players to "pack" IFAK's etc benefit the game? After all, that's their intended purpose IRL. 

See post above for a lot of great discussion by the community.

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