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Warpather

New Flash ShotGun Balance Suggestion

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Warpather

I'm sure you are getting plenty of people saying it, but the new flash rounds for the new shotgun are pretty overwhelming. The fact that you literally get a completely black screen for like 10 seconds is insane in a game like this. Its cool though don't get me wrong! I just think it may need some attention is all. My suggestion would be to make it so that something like sunglasses reduces the effect of the flash by a very large margin. It would create an awesome usefulness for Eye protection and would balance it out quite a bit. The worst part about this solution is it probably means every loadout you ever run is going to cost another 25k roubles because you MUST have the sunglasses so you don't get memed on. Just my take on it, but either way it should definitely be toned down a bit because man it is not fun to play against. One of the most infuriating things i've come across in this game and that is saying alot given how hardcore this game is.

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Spectator6

Just my opinion here, but please no. I'd rather not have one gimmicky, lame thing countered by adding another gimmicky, lame thing.

From the IRL footage I've seen, flash shells should not be this effective. Like, not even close to a mythical 10-15 vision blackout. Even in low light environments and especially in well lit areas or outside on a sunny day.

So I'd rather they address the weapon on its own merits than try to cover over it with others features that may be equally absurd.

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p4nnus
2 hours ago, Spectator6 said:

Just my opinion here, but please no. I'd rather not have one gimmicky, lame thing countered by adding another gimmicky, lame thing.

From the IRL footage I've seen, flash shells should not be this effective. Like, not even close to a mythical 10-15 vision blackout. Even in low light environments and especially in well lit areas or outside on a sunny day.

So I'd rather they address the weapon on its own merits than try to cover over it with others features that may be equally absurd.

I agree with spectator. Look at games that went your route @Warpather.. if you try to work around a problem by adding something to counter it, instead of fixing it, you end up with Rainbow Six Siege, a cluster fdoop of balance, with counters to the counters of counters. 

If nothing else, this ammo is gonna be super rare in the finished game. You will literally almost never run in to it. Also gonna probably be nerfed a little bit, but I am only for a nerf if the power of the flash rounds arent as good IRL, aka if its unrealistic in the game.

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Spectator6
5 hours ago, p4nnus said:

but I am only for a nerf if the power of the flash rounds arent as good IRL, aka if its unrealistic in the game.

Just on the face of it...

If KS-23 "star" shells offered 10-15 secs of complete disorientation --to the point where a person cannot even see or react properly in any way-- then why aren't SWAT teams around the world fielding them? Why weren't they used in Fallujah house raids, etc? Just kick open a door, roll in with a few flash shotties and boom, situation under control. A truly effective non-lethal like that would be game-changing.

Even if we take a look at hand-held flash canisters, which I'd imagine offer more "bang" given their size and construction...

Even these don't seem to be a "end-all-be-all", just a momentary annoyance/nuisance.

Now, I understand some concessions and liberties need to be taken for the sake of gameplay (after all, we've gotta try to SOMEHOW simulate being confused/dazed, right?), but IMO the stun/black-out effects of the "star" shell need to be toned down significantly. Maybe a minor blackout, but keep the "burn-in" circle? Something like that could be a reasonable trade-off

Edited by Spectator6

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Warpather

Appreciate all the responses here and yea I 100% agree that balancing a meme with a meme just creates another meme. It was just a suggestion. I'm pretty used to most video game companies not caring at all or even having a desire for change so I presented this as a work around solution if it wasn't going to be nerfed. It is new though so maybe its too soon to make this sort of judgement :)

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p4nnus
21 hours ago, Spectator6 said:

Just on the face of it...

If KS-23 "star" shells offered 10-15 secs of complete disorientation --to the point where a person cannot even see or react properly in any way-- then why aren't SWAT teams around the world fielding them? Why weren't they used in Fallujah house raids, etc? Just kick open a door, roll in with a few flash shotties and boom, situation under control. A truly effective non-lethal like that would be game-changing.

Even if we take a look at hand-held flash canisters, which I'd imagine offer more "bang" given their size and construction...

Well, maybe because its a very low grade soviet manufactured shotgun made out of old AA turret barrels and designed for prison riot rather than room clearing. Fallujah house raids? One does not simply go to a doorway when its possible to throw a flashbang in. Did you even try to think about this at all?

21 hours ago, Spectator6 said:

Even if we take a look at hand-held flash canisters, which I'd imagine offer more "bang" given their size and construction...

What you have in the video are probably not proper mil grade flashbangs. These are probably riot control flash bangs, people have died to wounds of proper ones so its expected that ones with less explosive material are used in riot control. Our military doesnt really have flashes except for MP and counter-terrorist CQB forces, so I dont have personal knowledge of them, havent used one ever. From what Ive heard, from instructors etc, they are absolutely effective. The effect is also better indoors and if the area is not well-lit.

IRL a flash could impair your hearing for a much longer time. So they are actually not overly effective, this considered.

21 hours ago, Spectator6 said:

Even these don't seem to be a "end-all-be-all", just a momentary annoyance/nuisance.

Now, I understand some concessions and liberties need to be taken for the sake of gameplay (after all, we've gotta try to SOMEHOW simulate being confused/dazed, right?), but IMO the stun/black-out effects of the "star" shell need to be toned down significantly. Maybe a minor blackout, but keep the "burn-in" circle? Something like that could be a reasonable trade-off

To be frank, Im not saying that this couldnt be ok. I was kinda just replying to your 

On 10/24/2020 at 9:21 AM, Spectator6 said:

flash shells should not be this effective

comment. If you base these on what you see in riots and the like, its not an accurate perspective.

IMO I wouldnt want the rounds nerfed, I want them to be rare. Just like all powerful ammo will be in the 1.0 EFT, it will be scarce and the best of the best will be VERY rare. Balance thru availability rather than unrealistic nerfs!

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Philb0
On 10/24/2020 at 7:21 AM, Spectator6 said:

Just my opinion here, but please no. I'd rather not have one gimmicky, lame thing countered by adding another gimmicky, lame thing.

From the IRL footage I've seen, flash shells should not be this effective. Like, not even close to a mythical 10-15 vision blackout. Even in low light environments and especially in well lit areas or outside on a sunny day.

So I'd rather they address the weapon on its own merits than try to cover over it with others features that may be equally absurd.

Actually this round in real life when fired at close range and cause Permanent loss of hearing (not total) and intense retina burn. It's by no means a gimmick.

image.png.9929826267e57a1b87fbaa2929106c42.pngFor reference: Please read the following
 

 

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Spectator6
6 minutes ago, p4nnus said:

Did you even try to think about this at all?

Excuse me? C'mon @p4nnus, why the personal attacks? I thought you knew me better than that brother... 

9 minutes ago, p4nnus said:

What you have in the video are probably not proper mil grade flashbangs

Sure, that's a fair point!

10 minutes ago, p4nnus said:

If you base these on what you see in riots and the like, its not an accurate perspective.

I'm comparing them to 12ga star shells I've seen online. Granted, the 23mm is quite a bit larger. So yeah, maybe the difference is quite significant?

12 minutes ago, p4nnus said:

Well, maybe because its a very low grade soviet manufactured shotgun made out of old AA turret barrels and designed for prison riot rather than room clearing.

Maybe so. But would this fact help EFT's case in regard to how devastating the shotgun shell performs?

-----

10 minutes ago, Philb0 said:

Actually this round in real life when fired at close range and cause Permanent loss of hearing (not total) and intense retina burn. It's by no means a gimmick.

Hi @Philb0!

Yeah I bet you're right, I bet it is pretty loud. But would it be *THAT* much louder than the nearby discharge of a lethal 23mm shell? To the point where one leaves the person unfazed while the other renders him virtually blind and deaf for 20 seconds on end, even with earpro? That's the part I'm calling a "gimmick".

Now, if BSG were to experiment with, say, a 75% black-out and keep the retina burn... Or if they tighten up the "cone of effect" so it takes a more direct shot to a player's eyes... Adjustments like these may go a long way toward it playing out much better and not feel quite so overpowered.

And if something so utterly devastating and disorienting can be "countered" by a pair of tinted Oakley's, then yeah, that'd feel pretty gimmicky in my opinion. I'd rather them remove it from it altogether than introduce this sort of "gamey" rock-paper-scissors situation. But who knows? Maybe I'm wrong, that's entirely possible too :)

And again, if flash shells were so effective IRL, why haven't we seen them fielded anywhere? Maybe it's just me, but IMO that's a valid question to ask.

 

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Philb0
1 minute ago, Spectator6 said:

Hi @Philb0!

Yeah I bet you're right, I bet it is pretty loud. But would it be *THAT* much louder than the nearby discharge of a lethal 23mm shell? To the point where one leaves the person unfazed while the other renders him virtually blind and deaf for 20 seconds on end, even with earpro? That's the part I'm calling a "gimmick".

Now, if BSG were to experiment with, say, a 75% black-out and keep the retina burn... Or if they tighten up the "cone of effect" so it takes a more direct shot to a player's eyes... Adjustments like these may go a long way toward it playing out much better and not feel quite so overpowered.

And if something so utterly devastating and disorienting can be "countered" by a pair of tinted Oakley's, then yeah, that'd feel pretty gimmicky in my opinion. I'd rather them remove it from it altogether than introduce this sort of "gamey" rock-paper-scissors situation. But who knows? Maybe I'm wrong, that's entirely possible too :)

And again, if flash shells were so effective IRL, why haven't we seen them fielded anywhere? Maybe it's just me, but IMO that's a valid question to ask.

 

Don't get me wrong i'm not saying i think the round is perfect as it is in game. I've had many a conversation on how intrusive it is and i would love to see a litle rework done on it personally. If you click the link i posted Tabias explains who currently uses the shells, it's honestly a good read.

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Spectator6
11 minutes ago, Philb0 said:

Don't get me wrong i'm not saying i think the round is perfect as it is in game. I've had many a conversation on how intrusive it is and i would love to see a litle rework done on it personally. If you click the link i posted Tabias explains who currently uses the shells, it's honestly a good read.

Yeah, thanks for linking it @Philb0!

Judging from tobiassolem's comments, it seems they're not settled on the effect yet either. Which is good to hear! 

tobiassolem:

> So perhaps if we were to be realistic (based on a regular flashbang) the duration would be 2 seconds (in daylight) up to 5 seconds during the night. But the "afterimage" should last for much longer.

That definitely sounds more reasonable, IMO! The fact they might start taking the ambient light-levels into account is a big thumbs-up!

 

Edited by Spectator6
clarify

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GeneralBrus
On 10/24/2020 at 10:49 AM, p4nnus said:

I agree with spectator. Look at games that went your route @Warpather.. if you try to work around a problem by adding something to counter it, instead of fixing it, you end up with Rainbow Six Siege, a cluster fdoop of balance, with counters to the counters of counters. 

If nothing else, this ammo is gonna be super rare in the finished game. You will literally almost never run in to it. Also gonna probably be nerfed a little bit, but I am only for a nerf if the power of the flash rounds arent as good IRL, aka if its unrealistic in the game.

agree 100 %, everyone would use sunglasses then, no need for more extra mechanics, thats fixing the symptoms , the problem is the round itsself.

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p4nnus
1 hour ago, Spectator6 said:

why the personal attacks?

Sorry Spectator, didnt mean to say it as an attack. TBH Id expect anyone knowing this weapon, the basics of room cleaning and flashbangs. My excuse is that Im a Finn and we speak quite frankly, or bluntly, but I just meant to ask you, did you think it through. 

"Why werent they used in Fallujah" is a no-brainer. Srsly tho, didnt mean to offend you.

2 hours ago, Spectator6 said:

I'm comparing them to 12ga star shells I've seen online. Granted, the 23mm is quite a bit larger. So yeah, maybe the difference is quite significant?

The amount of explosive and/or brightly burning material can be varied even in the hand-thrown grenades. Id expect this to have a mil-spec amount of juice in it. Soviet.. 70s... prison riot.. denier.. you know what I mean?

2 hours ago, Spectator6 said:

Maybe so. But would this fact help EFT's case in regard to how devastating the shotgun shell performs?

This is the point. IMO the gun perform probably pretty much as well as it does, the round, well maybe tweak the blindness vs blindspot effect.. anyways it should be effective, for sure, but the balancing should be done via ways that are connected to some other qualities of the gun; so that there is a space for it in the game. Its made from AA weapon barrels that didnt get thru the quality inspection, its manufactured in reasonably small amounts, same with the ammo. So it should degrade semi-fast and be rare. Rarity could mean its expensive too, if you think about flea market. Maybe the flash ammo could be 100 000 roubles per round.. maybe 200k? 

Just to point out and to be honest, Im not an expert on KS-23. I just know what Ive read (very little) and can maybe understand it through my training and modern urban combat principles.. :scwhistle:

2 hours ago, GeneralBrus said:

agree 100 %, everyone would use sunglasses then, no need for more extra mechanics, thats fixing the symptoms , the problem is the round itsself.

If you think about it like this, is it any different: 

KS-23 is 1,5% of weapons in EFT. The weapon is seldom sold on flea market at prices of 3-4 million roubles. The rounds are as said above.. You barely ever see it.. but its as powerful as now.

Would you be ok with this 1/100 raids very rare curiosity weapon, or not?

 

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GeneralBrus
1 hour ago, p4nnus said:

Sorry Spectator, didnt mean to say it as an attack. TBH Id expect anyone knowing this weapon, the basics of room cleaning and flashbangs. My excuse is that Im a Finn and we speak quite frankly, or bluntly, but I just meant to ask you, did you think it through. 

"Why werent they used in Fallujah" is a no-brainer. Srsly tho, didnt mean to offend you.

The amount of explosive and/or brightly burning material can be varied even in the hand-thrown grenades. Id expect this to have a mil-spec amount of juice in it. Soviet.. 70s... prison riot.. denier.. you know what I mean?

This is the point. IMO the gun perform probably pretty much as well as it does, the round, well maybe tweak the blindness vs blindspot effect.. anyways it should be effective, for sure, but the balancing should be done via ways that are connected to some other qualities of the gun; so that there is a space for it in the game. Its made from AA weapon barrels that didnt get thru the quality inspection, its manufactured in reasonably small amounts, same with the ammo. So it should degrade semi-fast and be rare. Rarity could mean its expensive too, if you think about flea market. Maybe the flash ammo could be 100 000 roubles per round.. maybe 200k? 

Just to point out and to be honest, Im not an expert on KS-23. I just know what Ive read (very little) and can maybe understand it through my training and modern urban combat principles.. :scwhistle:

If you think about it like this, is it any different: 

KS-23 is 1,5% of weapons in EFT. The weapon is seldom sold on flea market at prices of 3-4 million roubles. The rounds are as said above.. You barely ever see it.. but its as powerful as now.

Would you be ok with this 1/100 raids very rare curiosity weapon, or not?

 

doesnt matter how often something happens, hell if we make lvl 6 bodyarmor cost 4 million roubles, it would still be just as strong,

I dont like the "rarity" argument, because it doenst fix the balance issue, its just moves it to the top 10 % of the players.

the point is, this flashshot is muuuch stronger then a flashband, and thus its just straight broken.

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p4nnus
6 hours ago, GeneralBrus said:

doesnt matter how often something happens, hell if we make lvl 6 bodyarmor cost 4 million roubles, it would still be just as strong,

I dont like the "rarity" argument, because it doenst fix the balance issue, its just moves it to the top 10 % of the players.

the point is, this flashshot is muuuch stronger then a flashband, and thus its just straight broken.

The way its designed theres not as much risk of shrapnel, so there can be a lot more explosive and brightly burning material. I think normal flashes should be changed accordingly, or maybe the m84s that come at some point will be stronger.. 

Zaryas are the first iteration, just like pacas and forts were the only armor for some time. 

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Kastewyn

THERES NO COUNTERPLAY WITH THESE ROUNDS

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