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Damage system is broken or there's cheats preventing damage/death


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I shot a pistol runner (no armor) 5 times in the chest with Poleva slugs with a Saiga, within about 2 seconds as he jumps off a 2 story stairway in Big Red (Customs), and he lives - the guy's a level 9. I see the blood eject from his chest as my Polevas hit him so I know I have hit him 5 times. What gives? (he then proceeds to 'lucky-shot' me 1 shot with his pistol in my face and I die. I get that someone can be very lucky and one-shot a armor 4 class (with helmet class 4) PMC with a PB, sure - it happens and I feel like a noob for letting it happen to me, but that guy should not be standing after taking 360 damage (end screen) to his chest. Either he was cheating or the game's damage system is broken.

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Nameless_Terror

Trust me when I say I feel your pain. I'm of the opinion we have WAY too much heath in general and especially torso (lungs/heart). Is there any chance you were hitting limbs and stomach? The visual blood in game is spotty at best. In the same way you see the target jerk when shot, the blood doesn't always reflect what hits are being registered. 

I've never heard of a damage cheat yet but I know hit reg is a big issue. Don't forget to look at "hits"  and accuracy. You can have multiple hits for the same round. look at shots fired times accuracy to get the true number of shots landed on target. Arms are some of the best armour in the game and I've died to many a player and scav who was saved by the arms absorbing the shot first. 

 

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I don't record my games - there's no recording. I did chat with the guy afterwards though, he admits he had a lucky one-tap shot (it happens, that's not the issue). The issue is how can a PMC take 360 damage (as per end screen) to a SINGLE body part (I machinegunned the Saiga within 1-2 seconds in the same spot) and still live. He told me I blacked his arm, leg and stomach but I saw blood from thorax and not the parts he mentioned. I'm not trying to whine and I didn't have very good gear, just armor class 4 helmet, armor class 4 body armor and a cheap 80K saiga with Poleva slugs, pretty much the 'luxury' version of a pistol runner. I don't really mind losing the gear as in total it was maybe 200K with the bags and rigs, what gets me though is that if I can't kill a pistol runner without armor with 5 shotgun hits up-close, how can I even think of downing anything else? I'm moving away from shotguns altogether after this experience, back onto the KEDR, it's a shame coz I enjoy the shotguns - I one-shot most scavs, and every scav dies after 2 shots, just not PMCs.

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Nameless_Terror
2 minutes ago, PeskyMaus said:

He told me I blacked his arm, leg and stomach but I saw blood from thorax and not the parts he mentioned.

Bad visual/sync on the games end. Unfortunately the game design seems to make anything less than a kill shot irrelevant.  Black and broken limbs have little effect as you experienced. 

PS. Don't give up on shotties. MP 153 (semi auto) and 7 or 8 round extension with 8.5 magnum. You'll like it more than the saiga. Untill they do something about limbs absorbing damage so well, slugs aren't the way to go. 

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Thanks Nameless_Terror, love shotguns in most games so glad to see not all is lost, I'll try the 8 slot short-barrel MP153 and see how I go, thanks for the tip on the buckshot, I'll give it a go!

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DeadmodeUK

Without video evidence, it sounds like a serious desync issue. After watching Veritas' latest video analysing the netcode behaviour of EFT, it explains a lot of what we see in these types of engagement outcomes.

Unfortunately, there's a high chance that he was not quite where your client thought he was, therefore your shots missed or hit less vital areas than they appeared to. 

After all these years, netcode is STILL Tarkov's Achilles heel and continues to have the potential to prevent this game being truly great.

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davidj123456
8 hours ago, PeskyMaus said:

I shot a pistol runner (no armor) 5 times in the chest with Poleva slugs with a Saiga, within about 2 seconds as he jumps off a 2 story stairway in Big Red (Customs), and he lives - the guy's a level 9. I see the blood eject from his chest as my Polevas hit him so I know I have hit him 5 times. What gives? (he then proceeds to 'lucky-shot' me 1 shot with his pistol in my face and I die. I get that someone can be very lucky and one-shot a armor 4 class (with helmet class 4) PMC with a PB, sure - it happens and I feel like a noob for letting it happen to me, but that guy should not be standing after taking 360 damage (end screen) to his chest. Either he was cheating or the game's damage system is broken.

How do you know you did not hit his arms, legs, or stomach by mistake...?

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8 hours ago, Nameless_Terror said:

Trust me when I say I feel your pain. I'm of the opinion we have WAY too much heath in general and especially torso (lungs/heart).

Absolutely agree. Sadly BSG is going the opposite direction and increasing health instead of reducing it.

Increasing health is NOT the way to go in terms of giving people more of a chance to survive or making the game less frustrating because dying to a one-shot is too common.

No! Making it harder to aim and shoot is how you solve that issue! AKA removing FOV change on ADS!

Edited by RACWAR
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captainrussia21
11 hours ago, PeskyMaus said:

The issue is how can a PMC take 360 damage (as per end screen) to a SINGLE body part (I machinegunned the Saiga within 1-2 seconds in the same spot) and still live. He told me I blacked his arm, leg and stomach but I saw blood from thorax and not the parts he mentioned.

How can you "see" that blood came out of thorax? AFAIK there are no vosual cues for what body parts are bing hit in Tarkov. Just blood splatter meaning [some body part] was hit. Thats it.

You hit his arms and legs, and thats why he didnt die.

Saiga is amazing. Don't use crappy poleva slugs (they are so bad at this stage of the wipe anyway, its newbie ammo) use Flechette or AP-20s. Personally I've had mixed experience with AP20s (for same reason - as I hit legs/arms, and not thorax when I want to), so Flechette is definitely the way to go. Flechette doesn't care what body part you hit, its a 3 shot-kill on most targets. 2 shot if you hit thorax/head area. The spread is pretty tight on the flechette nails as well. 

3 hours ago, RACWAR said:

Sadly BSG is going the opposite direction and increasing health instead of reducing it.

But Pestily cried that we need to nerf Mosin or increase HP pools...

Edited by captainrussia21
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captainrussia21
1 hour ago, Nameless_Terror said:

Sometimes it registers pretty well.

Only registers on a head AFAIK, and only on a dead body.

Feel free to show me "thorax hits" or "arm hits" on a live and moving target... ;)

Also Im pretty sure those hits render on your machine locally (and not on the server) - unfortunately resulting in "false hit info" being rendered during desync's or lag.

1 hour ago, I-No said:

that being said... it is my opinion based on personal experience and loads of statements from credible content creators and community members... bullets do not properly nor realistically penetrate arms right now. I am under the impression that it is a "known issue" being worked on.

does your opinion and personal experience take into account actual game mechanics? Or you just pull stuff out of thin air?

(over)penetration of [any body part] happens based on a formula, that takes into account bullet pen value, damage, velocity and a flesh's pen value of 29.

https://escapefromtarkov.gamepedia.com/Ballistics#Armor_and_penetration

Body parts get (over)penetrated same as armor, except they all have a pen value of 29. So any bullet under 29 pen will not pen body parts and will not fragment. (It will still deal "flesh" damage value to flesh though).

There is also a hidden stat called "penetration chance" (has nothing to do with armor), that affect's bullet's ability to pen objects (like doors), but I assume it also affects ability to penetrate limbs (and whether a limb is whole or blacked - probably plays a role in the equation as well)

https://tarkovaftermidnight.wordpress.com/

Edited by captainrussia21
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actually I will do the math for me.

Korund Class 5 vs Poleva - 6

45 durability but can never be penetrated because of the "KNOWN BUG". Generously assuming 5 hits to the plate carrier. Hit #1 is completely mitigated and best case scenario does maybe like 5 durability damage. 
hit #2 vs a now 40/45 Korund (40/45=88.9% mitigation.) this round deals 15 damage ( 10% of the 150 flesh damage that the slug is capable of) to the thorax best case scenario and maybe 5 more duarbility lost.
Hit #3 vs 35/45 Korund (35/45= 78% mitigation) this hit at best will deal 32 damage for a total of 47 thus far.
hit #4 vs 30/45 Korund (30/45+ 67% mitigation) This hit deals 49 damage... the target is now dead

But if a single slug hits an arm... or the stomach the target lives.

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captainrussia21
19 minutes ago, I-No said:

but there is a reason we cannot use cantid + PKO sights anymore

Lol really?

1675687786_2020-11-0919-53(0).thumb.png.e7f8420d568bc910b12b8c74ebece64a.png

19 minutes ago, I-No said:

because there is a bug with the arms hit box...

There was a bug, sure. But I heard it got fixed.

19 minutes ago, I-No said:

and things aren't properly penetrating...

Don't mix up penetration and hit boxes. 2 different things. The problem with the hit box was purely hit box related (where the hands are held up and how it prevented the thorax from being hit, unless over-penetration happened, just like IRL)

14 minutes ago, I-No said:

Furthermore... Poleva3 does not penetrate lvl3 armor and poleva6 is only "Slightly effective" which means the scenario you mentioned is not only possible... but probable when you consider that literally eveyone even "budget players at this point are running class 5 armor and above... realistically your rude retort answered you original post.

Not sure what imaginary scenario you are thinking up in your head. All I said that that Poleva is a shitty ammo. And I advise strongly against its use at the current stage in the wipe. Thats all. There is no "scenario" that I mentioned. 

15 minutes ago, I-No said:

there is literally a note from BSG staff that states ammo at penetration power 20 and below is currently bugged and never penetrates armor no matter what...

Lol really? Wanna read that over one more time? Does the note say "does not pen" or "does not fragment"? Good reading skills.

Therefore Poleva (3 or 6, same difference for sake of fragmentation) cannot fragment, as the pen has to be over 29 in order to fragment in current state of the game (sure we can call it bugged, but its the reality and the current mechanic that we all have to deal with)

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captainrussia21
29 minutes ago, I-No said:

actually I will do the math for me.

Korund Class 5 vs Poleva - 6

45 durability but can never be penetrated because of the "KNOWN BUG". Generously assuming 5 hits to the plate carrier. Hit #1 is completely mitigated and best case scenario does maybe like 5 durability damage. 
hit #2 vs a now 40/45 Korund (40/45=88.9% mitigation.) this round deals 15 damage ( 10% of the 150 flesh damage that the slug is capable of) to the thorax best case scenario and maybe 5 more duarbility lost.
Hit #3 vs 35/45 Korund (35/45= 78% mitigation) this hit at best will deal 32 damage for a total of 47 thus far.
hit #4 vs 30/45 Korund (30/45+ 67% mitigation) This hit deals 49 damage... the target is now dead

According to BattleBuddy:

Poleva - 6. Pen = 20; Flesh = 150; Armor DMG = 50

1) First Hit - 0% chance to pen. Blunt damage applied = unknown, b/c we dont know what "blunt throughput" stat is (but probably like 2-5 pts). Armor DMG applied = 7 pts (Korund is now at 38/45)

2) Second Hit - 0% chance to pen. Blunt damage applied = unknown, b/c we dont know what "blunt throughput" stat is (but probably like 2-5 pts). Armor DMG applied = 6 pts (Korund is now at 32/45)

3) Third Hit - 0% chance to pen. Blunt damage applied = unknown, b/c we dont know what "blunt throughput" stat is (but probably like 2-5 pts). Armor DMG applied = 6 pts (Korund is now at 26/45)

4) Fourth Hit - 0% chance to pen. Blunt damage applied = unknown, b/c we dont know what "blunt throughput" stat is (but probably like 2-5 pts). Armor DMG applied = 6 pts (Korund is now at 20/45)

5) Fifth Hit - 0% chance to pen. Blunt damage applied = unknown, b/c we dont know what "blunt throughput" stat is (but probably like 2-5 pts). Armor DMG applied = 7 pts (Korund is now at 14/45)

6) Sixth Hit - 12% chance to pen. Blunt damage applied = unknown, b/c we dont know what "blunt throughput" stat is (but probably like 2-5 pts). Armor DMG applied = 6 pts (Korund is now at 8/45). If 12 % pen triggers and the slug penetrates = our target will be dead As even after reduction 85+ dmg will be dealt to the thorax

7) Seventh Hit - 97.3% chance to pen. Blunt damage applied = unknown, b/c we dont know what "blunt throughput" stat is (but probably like 2-5 pts). Armor DMG applied = 6 pts (Korund is now at 2/45). If 97.3 % pen triggers (it better at this point) and the slug penetrates = our target will be dead. As even after reduction 85+ dmg will be dealt to the thorax

TLDR: Poleva is trash vs class 5. You need 6 hits (at best) to get a 12% chance to "one tap" a thorax, 7 hits to be at 97% of one-tapping.

You'd be much better off putting 5 poleva slugs into someone's arm to fully kill them (but 5 hits to the arm is still horrible TTK)

 

EDIT: poleva-6 can (over)pen flesh. It will just never fragment. Flesh (over)penetration and fragmentation are 2 different things that you keep confusing.

But Poleva-6 in general is bad ammo. And thats all the scenario that you need to know.

Edited by captainrussia21
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captainrussia21
1 minute ago, I-No said:

are you aware that this math does not check out at all and even if it did it only pertains to armor damage... 

Im aware that Veritas' math checks out and BattleBuddy is a really good app. And yeah, when there is 0% pen, we are talking armor damage only (save for the little "blunt dmg" dealt to flesh, which I already noted).

You need to learn how to concede in a lost argument, ;) its a very rare trait these days.

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kennyream66

The system is broken and nobody cares or notices or they just say "hardcore shooter bro get better". You can clearly do tests after thousands of raids and realize that the face shields are either broken or work too well. The bullet system is broken and some just simply work better than others. This game is only fun during a wipe and I have now quit the game twice with 100+ million in stash value with dozens of gear sets at the ready. There is zero point in taking in expensive gear and at one point the garbage green helmet was the best choice (and usually no helmet is the best choice). Nikita doesn't care about the players and wants to move on to the next project already. Funnel funds to streamers to get more people to buy the game was the last years primary focus. Will I be back for wipe? Absolutely. Will it be worth it? Probably not again.

 

I'm assuming they still allow bunny hopping to go faster? Close to ZERO recoil on guns for modding it? If so, still trash to call it realistic.

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Servicer_Skynet
19 hours ago, kennyream66 said:

The system is broken and nobody cares or notices or they just say "hardcore shooter bro get better". You can clearly do tests after thousands of raids and realize that the face shields are either broken or work too well. The bullet system is broken and some just simply work better than others. This game is only fun during a wipe and I have now quit the game twice with 100+ million in stash value with dozens of gear sets at the ready. There is zero point in taking in expensive gear and at one point the garbage green helmet was the best choice (and usually no helmet is the best choice). Nikita doesn't care about the players and wants to move on to the next project already. Funnel funds to streamers to get more people to buy the game was the last years primary focus. Will I be back for wipe? Absolutely. Will it be worth it? Probably not again.

 

I'm assuming they still allow bunny hopping to go faster? Close to ZERO recoil on guns for modding it? If so, still trash to call it realistic.

To be fair, recoil is kind of a issue rn.

I'm of the opinion a lot of guns should have better recoil in the first place. Like, the recoil on an AKM or M4A1 is just silly.

One of the most grevious issues is the armor system. A lot of basic FMJ loads are way too challenging. "M80 beats GOST 6A lol", for instance. I get the idea though, and I think that it's not going to change until later. Because of the hitboxing, armor covers more than it should, but also doesn't perform to spec.

Who knows, maybe they'll start handing out explosives. Wanna beat armor? Get a grenade and roll it to that heavy armor's feet.

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captainrussia21
1 hour ago, Servicer_Skynet said:

To be fair, recoil is kind of a issue rn.

I'm of the opinion a lot of guns should have better recoil in the first place. Like, the recoil on an AKM or M4A1 is just silly.

huh?

Recoil is not bad at all, and M4A1 can have one of the lowest recoils in the game. AK's and AKM are okayish... in the end of the day its your recoil skill that will determine the "real" recoil and that skill is pretty OP. The base (or modded) stats on the weapon itself are only half of the picture...

1 hour ago, Servicer_Skynet said:

One of the most grevious issues is the armor system. A lot of basic FMJ loads are way too challenging. "M80 beats GOST 6A lol", for instance. I get the idea though, and I think that it's not going to change until later. Because of the hitboxing, armor covers more than it should, but also doesn't perform to spec.

The armor system is actually pretty nice (at least its more realistic then any other game). Armor does not "just reduce DMG taken like in Fortnite LUL", but actually blocks all (almost all) dmg if the round does not pen. And if the round pens - almost 0% DMG is blocked. Pretty much how it works IRL. At lest no silly things like "heavy armor = 40% DMG reduction lulkek", which is a very unrealistic videogame approach.

1 hour ago, Servicer_Skynet said:

Who knows, maybe they'll start handing out explosives. Wanna beat armor? Get a grenade and roll it to that heavy armor's feet.

again, Im confused as to whether we are playing the same game? There are plenty of explosives in Tarkov... and have been for a very long time. And rolling grenades is actually a thing. You can toss a nade or you can roll it too... its left click vs right click when holding a nade.

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Servicer_Skynet
On 11/12/2020 at 11:18 AM, captainrussia21 said:

The armor system is actually pretty nice (at least its more realistic then any other game). Armor does not "just reduce DMG taken like in Fortnite LUL", but actually blocks all (almost all) dmg if the round does not pen. And if the round pens - almost 0% DMG is blocked. Pretty much how it works IRL. At lest no silly things like "heavy armor = 40% DMG reduction lulkek", which is a very unrealistic videogame approach.

The funny thing about armor is that in some cases it does pretty well at keeping you alive. According to ballistics testing by a well respected expert going by the name of DoctorGKR, post IIIA soft, 5.56 looks more like .22LR.

Also, uh... If you want realism I would recommend AAPM and UAS for ArmA 3.

...will I get banned for plugging other games? :P

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You really seem to look for reason but the way i see it, 90% of players come running wherever i am and shot 0.1 seconds after getting out of cover directly in the head. Also, shot them from behind with a saiga, they don't die, they turn around, headshot.

I think cheaters feel at home, somehow.

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davidj123456

A lot of people forget that you can easily be aimed at someone's Torso but hit their arms or top of their legs by mistake. These limbs can help absorb some of the damage and prevent a PMC from dying.

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  • 4 months later...
ooomittyooo

i forgot about this fourm post everyones input made me carry on playing its a rough game but now that ive put 2000+ hours into the game 
im slapping players like a god such a good game once you know 100% what you are doing such a fun game to play also Buying a decent Gaming Pc helped me alot most of the issues was caused with desync and poor fps from low hardware 

thanks for everyone's input it made me become a better tarkov player 


 

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MTtheRealist

I have to agree 100% that the damage consistency is well.... non existent. Here is what happened to me when I died to a player scav last night...

It showed I shot 28 rounds that raid and missed 8 shots. I was using a decked out .308 MDR and running M61. Player scav was ratting, I found him. Naded him. He ran out. I unloaded a whole 20 round clip till it ran out, and he shot me in the thorax once to kill me. Remember, I unloaded a whole 20 rd clip and only missed 8 shots all raid. That means that scav took 12 shots of m61 at the MINIMUM, and lived......

can someone please explain this? I would really like to know if this is something the BSG staff is planning to fix when the game is ready for release. If not, I feel like I am wasting my time testing the game..

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Eisenwanst

Sounds like desync to me. But you know, its in the best state ever, so it must be your hardware or something else. 

But youre not alone. I cant kill anything. I unload magazins full of good ammo in players and scavs. And i die every time. I mean, im really bad in this game. And i miss a lot of shots. I get that. But atleast i should have some luck from time to time. 

And i cant explain, why just some players have this problem. My gamingrig is mediocre and i have a good internetconnection. I dont have problems with other games. Whatever. I should play something else, until they fix this things. But thats not a big loss. The say the next wipe comes with streets. If i remember correctly. And that should be at the end of the year. In the best case. And that means, we have months and months before us, with a flooded economy and bored players wit the best gear available. I think, streets will come in the middle of 2022. So they have to wipe atleast two times in the meantime. I think, we will see the factoryexpansion in summer. Wipe included. It will be fun, to play some weeks after the wipe. It feels like the game runs better after a wipe. Maybe just imagination.

Edited by Eisenwanst
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