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Teriun

Remove bunny hopping, strafe meta and sprint turning, please.

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Teriun

For a game such as EFT, You'd think movement should look different.

It is unfortunately not the case, because of the current movement system, the gameplay feels weird and quite arcady. Be it in close quarters or longer distances fights, all of those problems become apparent and goes to show how abusable and let us not be afraid to say it, unrealistic it all looks. I thought BHOP has been removed some time ago, but today I have been proven wrong, as a squad of 3 player scavs were making their way across an open field without any meaningful cover, all merry bunny hopping and turning on their heels while sprinting, as to dodge any potential gunfire, rendering all attempts of firing at them fruitless, since it makes it virtually impossible to score a hit on such an unpredictable target without wasting loads of rounds. This is not the only example of movement working wrong, it is just as insulting at short distance fights, where You will see people scooting all around the place just to "dodge" bullets coming at 'em. This should have no place in Tarkov.

I bought EFT to get a realistic, tactical and hardcore combat simulator, not a COD game on drugs with slightly advanced game elements. Me, and I'm fairly sure many more players hope this is getting looked into and potential fixes are to come. Thanks.

 

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Yeavo

Simply adding more inertia and momentum affected by weight to movement would go a mile to get this game feel more realistic. No more ADADADA -spamming if stafing would feel more sluggish. Jumping mechanic should be replaced with vaulting mechanic. This would also have the added bonus of allowing Devs more control over where players can and cannot get into.

Addition:

Why momentum affected by weight? Simply because that would balance out light weight gear vs. heavy gear and thus gearing for a raid would become tactical choice instead of the current clearly tiered gear meta. AD -spam would still be an option for those who prefer speed and mobility over protection. There is a reason why special operators sometimes choose to wear just simple chest plates over going in wih full protective vest. Speed sometimes trumps protection, while sometimes going in heavy is the tactically sound choice. Currently just look at the numbers and the higher tier armor it is with more protective area the better. There is no compromises to be made which isn't realistic in my mind.

Edited by Yeavo
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Salted1337

Wouldn't be a normal day on the forums if at least one person didn't make a thread about strafing and bunny hopping.

Fix desync and netcode issues first and then we can talk about movement. Currently in the state of things, people can abuse lean peeks more than they can abuse strafing side to side or bunny hopping. With how things are, you can headshot them and it will look normal to you, but on their screen they will only see your arm. Furthermore, I die behind cover loads of times. I would rather see those things get fixed which indirectly fixes strafing as people won't be teleporting on the ground which in turn means easier to track.

https://streamable.com/bbcgbo

Even the guy on the receiving end dies when he's behind cover in that clip.

Edited by Salted1337
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Yeavo

@Salted1337 Sure. I don't think I or OP ever suggested it should be priority number 1 but movement should be pretty high up there. Fixing desync and netcode would also aid countering adad -spammers. However no game is 100% desync free. Too many factors there many of which are outside devs control because they're coming from the client side.

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Salted1337
1 minute ago, Yeavo said:

@Salted1337 Sure. I don't think I or OP ever suggested it should be priority number 1 but movement should be pretty high up there. Fixing desync and netcode would also aid countering adad -spammers. However no game is 100% desync free. Too many factors there many of which are outside devs control because they're coming from the client side.

Not any other FPS game I've played besides Cold War or Modern Warfare where the netcode has been this bad. Even Arma 3 which also is client sided wasn't this bad either. I would rather have that netcode where people are lagswitching but at least it was consistent.

Additionally, audio is incredibly bad as well. Very inconsistent. Some sounds just don't get played when they should be played.

https://streamable.com/tesfqi

Audio, desync and netcode are my biggest gripes with the game currently. Not people bunny hopping or if they move side to side.

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Teriun

Poor netcode, broken sounds and much more are just as important. In the end, we all want Tarkov to feel and play great.

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GeneralBrus

Inertia is coming and BSG is aware that there are tons of ppl yelling for movement changes. So things will get better.

 

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InsightKnight

They could hot fix this in 5 minutes with a halving of the left and right strafe speed. It is a simple interger to change. :(

Close Quarter EFT fights feel so trashy with the current movement/lazergun spray mechanics. Even the SCAVs strafe move with perfect accuracy it is so immersion breaking.

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GhostZ69
14 minutes ago, InsightKnight said:

They could hot fix this in 5 minutes with a halving of the left and right strafe speed. It is a simple interger to change. :(

Close Quarter EFT fights feel so trashy with the current movement/lazergun spray mechanics. Even the SCAVs strafe move with perfect accuracy it is so immersion breaking.

Yeah, they could slap a band aid on it in 5 minutes, or they could actually do it RIGHT in ten minutes.  Seriously, this is such a simple thing to fix.

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InsightKnight
Just now, GhostZ69 said:

Yeah, they could slap a band aid on it in 5 minutes, or they could actually do it RIGHT in ten minutes.  Seriously, this is such a simple thing to fix.

Agreed. My point was they have zero excuse for leaving it the way it is but yes you are correct. These are foundational features that should have been built from day one.

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GhostZ69
Just now, InsightKnight said:

Agreed. My point was they have zero excuse for leaving it the way it is but yes you are correct. These are foundational features that should have been built from day one.

Yeah, movement is the first thing I set up when I start making a level.  The movement in this game is like calling Tron a 'Hardcore Realistic Driving Simulator" when the motorcycles make 90° turns at 90mph.  LoL and go from 0-90 in 0.01 seconds.  It is laughable at best.

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Recruit-

Bunny hop is normal, if you are running and jumping or obviously you will jump further than if you jump without momentum! And the injections, mmmm the truth is that they exist, well not all but the vast majority really do exist

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plisken
On 12/1/2020 at 4:16 PM, Salted1337 said:

Wouldn't be a normal day on the forums if at least one person didn't make a thread about strafing and bunny hopping.

Fix desync and netcode issues first and then we can talk about movement. Currently in the state of things, people can abuse lean peeks more than they can abuse strafing side to side or bunny hopping. With how things are, you can headshot them and it will look normal to you, but on their screen they will only see your arm. Furthermore, I die behind cover loads of times. I would rather see those things get fixed which indirectly fixes strafing as people won't be teleporting on the ground which in turn means easier to track.

https://streamable.com/bbcgbo

Even the guy on the receiving end dies when he's behind cover in that clip.

Ok.. do you understand that movement model problems and "netcode problems" go hand in hand? You are never going to have great netcode - its simply not possible with today's technology. EVERY SINGLE FPS ON THE MARKET has "poor netcode". One of the ways developers can address this is by game design with netcode issues in mind. More specifically to the argument at hand: movement models. Making LESS PREDICTABLE movement NOT POSSIBLE is one of the ways you address perceived "netcode problems" and "desync". 

The VERY SOLUTION  to the "NETCODE" PROBLEM YOU ARE DESCRIBING, IS DONE BY ADDRESSING THE MOVEMENT MODEL ----- NOT THE NETCODE.

So addressing this issue is killing two birds with one stone: its helping the perceived netcode issues, and it helps realism. 

Secondly, the people saying "well what about all these others issue like..". THIS issue is a SIMPLE FIX. Other issues, like audio, may require a COMPLETE REDESIGN to get to an acceptable standard. 

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Salted1337
2 hours ago, plisken said:

Secondly, the people saying "well what about all these others issue like..". THIS issue is a SIMPLE FIX

If it was a "SIMPLE FIX", they would've implemented it by now.

2 hours ago, plisken said:

Ok.. do you understand that movement model problems and "netcode problems" go hand in hand?

You evidently don't understand that more calculations need to be made if inertia is to be implemented. If inertia is going to be a variable that depends on gear weight and skills that requires further computations and requires more data to be sent in a packet or if the data is too big send multiple packets - which, you guessed it, will increase how big the packets that will be sent and bigger packets means more data that needs to be decoded by the server which will increase delay.

2 hours ago, plisken said:

The VERY SOLUTION  to the "NETCODE" PROBLEM YOU ARE DESCRIBING, IS DONE BY ADDRESSING THE MOVEMENT MODEL ----- NOT THE NETCODE.

Your caps lock got stuck or something?

2 hours ago, plisken said:

You are never going to have great netcode - its simply not possible with today's technology. EVERY SINGLE FPS ON THE MARKET has "poor netcode".

You evidently haven't played CS on 128 hz servers or Valorant. People would be blowing up the forums if netcode was ass. Even Valorant's early marketing was solely focused on netcode and anticheat. "Go to war on peeker's advantage" they said in their first video about their project. You can have good enough netcodes nowadays considering how much technology has evolved. Tarkov is using some deprecated library that they weren't bothered to change once it deprecated.

image.thumb.png.6c39bcd5ee49ca78e72a2e904c68d455.png

Edited by Salted1337

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Yeavo
22 hours ago, Recruit- said:

Bunny hop is normal, if you are running and jumping or obviously you will jump further than if you jump without momentum! And the injections, mmmm the truth is that they exist, well not all but the vast majority really do exist

Try hopping 10 or just 5 good hops like the PMCs do in this game. Measure the best height, length but most importantly meassure time the between those jumps. Doesn't matter if you have momentum or not. Even on steroids human muscles need to prepare for the jump and recover after. You simply cannot hop like that in real life. Not even professional athletes can do that. And athletes aren't wearing 60-140 lbs worth of gear on them + guns and possible loot.

This is CS, valorant, Overwatch arenashooter bullshit not realistic tactical shooter movement. Real soldiers move rather sluggishly when weighted down by all the gear their wearing. Sure people can run even with heavy gear on but that affects acceleration and deceleration even more so. When you are running full speed with 100lbs on you, you can't just go into almost immediate stop. A hatchling or pistoling could do it (maybe) but not fully geared PMC. That is why I want weight to matter, because when claiming realism physics matter.

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Recruit-
5 hours ago, Yeavo said:

Intente saltar 10 o solo 5 buenos saltos como lo hacen los PMC en este juego. Mide la mejor altura, longitud, pero lo más importante mide el tiempo entre esos saltos. No importa si tienes impulso o no. Incluso con esteroides, los músculos humanos deben prepararse para el salto y recuperarse después. Simplemente no puedes saltar así en la vida real. Ni siquiera los atletas profesionales pueden hacer eso. Y los atletas no llevan entre 60 y 140 libras de equipo + armas y posible botín.

Esto es CS, valorante, Overwatch arenashooter bullshit, no un movimiento de shooter táctico realista. Los soldados reales se mueven con bastante lentitud cuando están abrumados por todo el equipo que llevan. Seguro que las personas pueden correr incluso con marcha pesada, pero eso afecta aún más la aceleración y la desaceleración. Cuando corres a toda velocidad con 100 libras sobre ti, no puedes detenerte casi de inmediato. Una cría o una pistola podrían hacerlo (tal vez) pero no un PMC completamente equipado. Por eso quiero que el peso importe, porque al afirmar el realismo la física importa.

a very simple solution, GET OUT THE BUNNYHOPPING!!!!

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Yeavo
6 hours ago, Recruit- said:

a very simple solution, GET OUT THE BUNNYHOPPING!!!!

Exactly. Now there is couple of solutions I would recommend to make the movement feel more realistic when it comes to bunnyhopping issue. Lower the jump height and increase its stamina drain or/and give jumping a longer cooldown timer lets say 1 to 2 sec. Or remove jumping all together and replace it with vaulting mechanics. I'd personally prefer the latter since that would allow devteam more control over where players can go and where they can't.

Edited by Yeavo

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Kimuri

Nikita already pointed out that they're adding inertia to block the ADAD issue.

Why do people keep complaining and complaining. 

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Yeavo
16 minutes ago, Kimuri said:

Nikita already pointed out that they're adding inertia to block the ADAD issue.

Why do people keep complaining and complaining. 

Because BSG has been talking about this and made promises to make movement more realistic for at least two years now. Instead they increased the jump height to make movement resemble even more arcade arena shooter, and most worryingly of all Nikita was proud of it.

I think (some) twitch streamers have brought with them a massive crowd of players that want more hardcore CS:GO with MMO grinding. These players don't want realistic tactical shooter, they want hardcore arcade shooter.

The original EFT sales pitch was uncompromisingly realistic hardcore shooter with rpg elements. Now the "hardcore" part of the game is in direct opposition to "realism" part.

To clarify: Doing backflip 360 noscope headshot with while base jumping from a mountain top is hardcore, but its far from realistic.

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Kimuri
10 minutes ago, Yeavo said:

Because BSG has been talking about this and made promises to make movement more realistic for at least two years now. Instead they increased the jump height to make movement resemble even more arcade arena shooter, and most worryingly of all Nikita was proud of it.

I think (some) twitch streamers have brought with them a massive crowd of players that want more hardcore CS:GO with MMO grinding. These players don't want realistic tactical shooter, they want hardcore arcade shooter.

The original EFT sales pitch was uncompromisingly realistic hardcore shooter with rpg elements. Now the "hardcore" part of the game is in direct opposition to "realism" part.

To clarify: Doing backflip 360 noscope headshot with while base jumping from a mountain top is hardcore, but its far from realistic.

Okay, let's talk about this.

A few wipes ago, BSG implemented being overweight: you can no longer sprint and run as you would before that with 100kg on you.

Last dev blog, Nikita said they're going to implement inertia to combat the ADAD issue currently being brought up by everyone by making it so that your character 'leans' to one side before moving.

When you get shot, you now lose stamina. 

 

As far as I can tell, they are doing something about it but it's just not priority. 

Edited by Kimuri

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Yeavo
1 minute ago, Kimuri said:

A few wipes ago, BSG implemented being overweight: you can no longer sprint and run as you would before that with 100kg on you.

Which I sounded good on paper..

But then they increased skill effects and introduced stims to nullify these changes but only for those who have the level and cash. Sometimes I think BSG doesn't really know what they want to do with EFT. They've drifted pretty far from their original mission statement and I believe that is mostly because the suggestion from streamers.

Also its done by stamina drain which feels really arcady. Weight should IMO have immediate effect on movement rather than increase ones stamina drain. Also realistically carrying a lot heavy gear around is tiring and makes you sweat, but heavy protective gear doesn't breath that well, so it increases your body temperature which makes you sweat even more (believe me, I hated patrolling in full armor and even today if going to range/competition I wear only basic platecarrier IV breast and back plates) so having the hydration meter lower faster would also make the game feel more realistic.

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Yeavo
15 minutes ago, Kimuri said:

Last dev blog, Nikita said they're going to implement inertia to combat the ADAD issue currently being brought up by everyone by making it so that your character 'leans' to one side before moving.

Its kind of sad that Nikita needs twitch streamers to start shouting at him to realize ADAD -spamming is an issue. But what comes to suggested solution it once again sounds nice, we'll just have to see how its implemented.

Personally I'd also add leaning the other way. When begining movement your character leans one way and when coming to a stop you'd lean the other. You can try this at home by quickly stepping a few steps left and right in quick succession.

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Kimuri
2 minutes ago, Yeavo said:

Which I sounded good on paper..

But then they increased skill effects and introduced stims to nullify these changes but only for those who have the level and cash. Sometimes I think BSG doesn't really know what they want to do with EFT. They've drifted pretty far from their original mission statement and I believe that is mostly because the suggestion from streamers.

Also its done by stamina drain which feels really arcady. Weight should IMO have immediate effect on movement rather than increase ones stamina drain. Also realistically carrying a lot heavy gear around is tiring and makes you sweat, but heavy protective gear doesn't breath that well, so it increases your body temperature which makes you sweat even more (believe me, I hated patrolling in full armor and even today if going to range/competition I wear only basic platecarrier IV breast and back plates) so having the hydration meter lower faster would also make the game feel more realistic.

Is this not the case currently?

The heavier you are the more energy you use + you can't move in full speed. Stims have been introduced recently, I'm sure they'll tweak this and reduce the rediculous effects they have right now.

On the other hand, when the game releases, these stims are going to be so rare they have to be worth using.

 

We're all here to make sure Tarkov goes in that direction and listening to Nikita you can tell the current state is not what he wants. I'm sure inertia will be added, weapons will be less accurate, damage and realistic punishments will be implemented. 

 

I mean.. If you have a shotgun with proper rounds and enough meds to stop a bleeding you'll be a rich man in the full release of Tarkov. 

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Yeavo
4 minutes ago, Kimuri said:

Is this not the case currently?

The heavier you are the more energy you use + you can't move in full speed.

Frankly I don't feel any significant difference compared to my real life experience of carrying poo around on field. Energy drain isn't the same as hydration drain and liquids are heavy when carrying large enough amounts for long enough periods of time. When going in raid heavy one should bring more drinks or spend more time in raid looking for something to drink and less time looking for GPUs to bring back to hideout.

8 minutes ago, Kimuri said:

We're all here to make sure Tarkov goes in that direction

Which is the whole purpose of this thread.

9 minutes ago, Kimuri said:

and listening to Nikita you can tell the current state is not what he wants.

I get this feeling too, however I feel Nikita is in a bit of bind when it comes to Twitch community and the playerbase they've brought with them. These people expect and "hardcore action Jonh Wick experience with cool modded guns and awsome kitted gear, dude" -kind of experience which is pretty far from Nikitas and BSGs original vision.

12 minutes ago, Kimuri said:

On the other hand, when the game releases, these stims are going to be so rare they have to be worth using.

 

13 minutes ago, Kimuri said:

I'm sure inertia will be added, weapons will be less accurate, damage and realistic punishments will be implemented. 

 

14 minutes ago, Kimuri said:

I mean.. If you have a shotgun with proper rounds and enough meds to stop a bleeding you'll be a rich man in the full release of Tarkov. 

To this I can only say: Good. Make the game punishing and make every piece of gear you loot and take with you in raid be a tactical choice. Make the player suffer for poor decisions but make also make different pieces of gear and weapons excel in different situations and be a hindrance in others. Make the game about thinking before acting. Make it about tactical thinking and not about running and gunning while jumping around in meta gear.

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Neomancan

I fully disagree with OP. Campers (aka "tactical players") have much much much more than enough advanteges in this game already. So further nerfing the speed of PMC would make the game allllloooooot slower.

Oh and wanna talk about realism? Even if you are wearing the best helmet irl, one shot from a 9mm gun would make you disoriented, you would at least drop on the floor for a few minutes if not fully unconscious or dead. No matter how many times you inject yourself with morphines, with a shot from a simple 9mm gun to your leg, you would drop down on the floor, holding your leg, shouting in pain etc. etc. 

As you can see, too much realism would make the game completely unplayable. So increase your sensitivities a lil bit and practice tracking more. Thanks.

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