Health of the game's PvP

[etra_kurdaj]

I've given up playing and quit after only a few days into this wipe. I've decided I had enough, but still have feedback for this beta and so take it with as much salt as you like.

 

The Lapua 338 is gross. It one shots thorax, even with armor. But this is kind of expected, because 7.62x51 two shots Thorax. So what's the point of a bigger gun if it isn't going to do more? If the Lapua gets nerfed, then why would you ever use it? This begs the question why it was ever introduced, if it's presence was going to be toxic?

I'm going to throw out some maxims:

• "Fast" PvP, defined as short Time-to-Kill, is bad. 
  • Large or easily accessible head hit boxes only facilitate this. One hit kills with any weapon are bad. 
    • The current gameplay meta is to focus on headshots because it's the best. 
    • Every bullet kills in one hit against an unarmored target
    • Face Shields are expensive, obnoxious to use, and are unreliable (you're paying for protection against the bottom 90% least used ammos and ammo types)
  • Either the head hit box needs to be shrunk to make those hits harder (reduce edge cases) or player ability to "snap fire" needs to be nerfed to the point where current gameplay is unrecognizable. 
    • Let's be real here. Anyone who's spent any amount of time at a gun range will know that accuracy is hard. Hitting targets cannot be done absent-mindedly or while distracted. It's why marksmanship is a skill to be developed and maintained. There is a procedure of ten items to ensure your weapon is ready, working properly, and to check that you are ready and you are working properly.
    • This game is laughably generous when it comes to player accuracy:
      • point fire is far too stable and accurate; functionally speaking, the only times a player should decide it's a good idea to NOT ads is when they've already decided on a spray-and-pray strategy, which should have as limited an effectiveness as you'd expect.
      • ADS is far too quick to achieve and player movement while ADS'd is far too fast, especially when the weapon has a scope or optics. 
        • precision shooting with optics depends on the person controlling their breathing, keeping their head rock-steady so their eye doesn't lose the sight picture, holding the rifle as still as possible to not lose focus of the target (and therefore usually being in a prone or fixed-bipod position) and you allow players to ADAD or MOVE AROUND while keeping this?
• The game is neither pursuing realism nor effective "gaming" fakery, instead I think it is pursuing the worst of either strategy
  • Headshots kill (or incapacitate, which is about the same) in one hit. Yea, that's realism. It's also unsatisfying and not fun. 
  • Rifle rounds fail to kill (or incapacitate) in one hit to the chest. That is not realism, but artificial extensions of Time-to-Kill are good, because again, "Fast" PvP is bad."
  • Highly effective weapons, like grenades and grenade launchers, are nerfed either in effectiveness or availability. 
    • Artificial limits towards acquiring these "good" weapons in pursuit of balance is not realistic.

What players are left with is a game where players have superhuman reflexes and aiming abilities, making impractical riles/weapons so completely dominating they have to be nerfed from how they are in reality. Why aren't all infantrymen issued large, 4' long high-caliber rifles?

• oh, because they're heavy? Difficult to rapidly move around with? Impossible to clear rooms with?
• Because 360 no-scoping isn't actually a thing, nor is jumping onto the railing of a catwalk, sprinting and pwning a four-man team in four seconds?

The conclusion of my parts are as follows:

• If these superhuman attributes (like how everyone can ADS any weapon with the skill of an Olympic shooter) were toned down
• If it took 3-5 seconds to "ready" with a scoped rifle
• If it took 0.5-2 seconds to "ready" with iron sights or even EOTECHs
  • If ADS follow-up shots required the shooter to re-ready their weapon (because firing a gun is disruptive to a stable firing position)
• If point fire were as wildly inaccurate as it actually would be in real life (imagine firing a gun and not having a clear idea where you're aiming, madness)
• IF THIS GAME ACTUALLY EMBRACED REALISM regarding the abilities of the PMCs fighting in it...

Then the devs probably wouldn't have to bother making other unrealistic decisions to achieve the goal of longer-time-to-kill and by extension, better PvP.

[Skullzy]

Good luck getting the larger community to back this. Everybody is so in love with their meta guns and improper perception of how realism should be handled in video games that you'll likely get flamed

[Eisenwanst]

Most of your points are accurate. But i think, were not longer the targetaudience for this game. It goes more and more in the direction of a fastpaced shootergame, which fits the streamerplaystyle. They need action and fast gameplay. Otherwise its not entertaining. 

[Vindsvept]

Honestly, I've given up after the 'found in raid' changes. I wish I could get a refund. Came back to see if the game has properly improved and by just browsing the forums, it's worse off then it was. Good job BSG, thanks for catering and pampering the streamers instead of listening to your community who has been with you since the start.

[Tempten101]

These are some very great points that follow the supposed direction of EFT. I like these suggestions a lot.

But well, the majority of players will most likely disagree because anything "realism" to them is considered "not fun", even if it helps the game.

[LoginTaken]

20 hours ago, etra_kurdaj said:

The conclusion of my parts are as follows:

• If these superhuman attributes (like how everyone can ADS any weapon with the skill of an Olympic shooter) were toned down
• If it took 3-5 seconds to "ready" with a scoped rifle
• If it took 0.5-2 seconds to "ready" with iron sights or even EOTECHs
  • If ADS follow-up shots required the shooter to re-ready their weapon (because firing a gun is disruptive to a stable firing position)
• If point fire were as wildly inaccurate as it actually would be in real life (imagine firing a gun and not having a clear idea where you're aiming, madness)
• IF THIS GAME ACTUALLY EMBRACED REALISM regarding the abilities of the PMCs fighting in it...

Then the devs probably wouldn't have to bother making other unrealistic decisions to achieve the goal of longer-time-to-kill and by extension, better PvP.

1. Going from shoulder to ADS is not difficult. Besides you are playing a PMC, who likely put some effort into learning how to shoot well before joining a PMC organization. Likely was even former military. If a actor in a matter of months can learn to do this with live ammo, you sure bet a person who has their actual life on the line, would put in similar effort. That does not apply to Scavs, but to be consistent and remove unnecessary RNG, it does in the game.

That said, the problem is not the Speed Between ADS and Shoulder, but how certain weapons have uncontrollable recoil, despite having ample means to compensate. Hence why "meta" guns exist. They are the only weapons that function within a reasonable degree (That said some  are rather ridiculous).

2.  See Answer 1.

3. See Answer 1.

Additionally, firing a gun should not disrupt a Stable Firing Position. It would not be stable if it did. Unless you are firing a high caliber rifle. Even then, you would use different techniques.

4. When you are firing a gun from the shoulder, without the use of sites, its not that difficult. I am sure it varies from person to person. But a military member would have little issue. I don't aim down the sites when Skeet shooting, but I still hit the target, because I have a stable firing position and proper handling of the weapon.

5. Look, there are large number of unrealistic aspects of the game. Though as I said when I first got into this game about 2 years ago (Used friends account back then, for those that like to Profile Dive). It is a game.

Sacrifices will be made to make it playable. Hence why wipes will never go away, and why you can heal wounds that in real life would render you useless. Just to name a few.

If the issue is time to kill, which I agree with, then there are other ways to do this. You mentioned one by making the Head-Hitbox more practical in size (Granted it should still be the size of the head).

Additionally....

A more complex damage system. Thorax and stomach should have the same variety of damage areas as the head does. The head has Eyes, Ears, Top of Head, Nape, Jaw etc.

The thorax should have Heart, Spine, Lung.

The Stomach should have Spine, Lungs, Kidneys (Or similar areas)

 

 

I agree with you that PVP can be really quick sometimes. But it should always have a chance to be so. If change is to be made, damage system needs to be more diverse, and the economy needs to change to make very good bullets harder to find. Thus insuring more use of Low and Mid Tier ammunition.

There is a reason the game is very popular at the start of the wipe. There are not hundreds of chads running around with meta guns and meta ammo.

Otherwise the wipe system will never go away.

Edited January 2, 2021 by LoginTaken
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[moisesjns]

THIS post. will be ignored by all the dumb fanboy who are going to kill this game.

 

DEVS are going for a Fast profit, Fast  rotating playerbase. They love streamers because they attract noobs/ people who never even heard of tarkov.  And this brings people who than get on, play have fun, complain and quit.

 

I do not know about you guys, but i followed this game since like 2016, i bought it in 2018/2017 Some time after BIG FRY got banned for NDA. I thought this game would be like stalker, roaming map, finding gangs of scavs, most of them hostile according to story, and than players too. I thought i would be worried about finding scavs in every building. Instead scavs are Static spawns in same place all the time. the biggest worry is not SCAVS (which is already breaking the storyline of game i mean this city is massive, but i only find 10 scavs max on each map?? and not even are they working together but they split up into 2 man groups across the map?) but PMC are the main threat, with scavs being practically no threat once you know the game (spawns never change)

 

Im really dissapointed, I wanted to like this game like i love stalker, I mean Look at Stalker 10 + years later its still amazing, and people still MOD it! This game is as the devs have said, going to be abandoned for another game. And this game will probably die on their next games  release.

[InsightKnight]

On 1/1/2021 at 7:37 PM, etra_kurdaj said:

The conclusion of my parts are as follows:

• If these superhuman attributes (like how everyone can ADS any weapon with the skill of an Olympic shooter) were toned down
• If it took 3-5 seconds to "ready" with a scoped rifle
• If it took 0.5-2 seconds to "ready" with iron sights or even EOTECHs
  • If ADS follow-up shots required the shooter to re-ready their weapon (because firing a gun is disruptive to a stable firing position)
• If point fire were as wildly inaccurate as it actually would be in real life (imagine firing a gun and not having a clear idea where you're aiming, madness)
• IF THIS GAME ACTUALLY EMBRACED REALISM regarding the abilities of the PMCs fighting in it...

Not one of these bullet points are realistic. The problem is having equal accuracy while moving thus causing a rush meta combined with peekers advantage. If you are being shot at in no logical curcumstance would it take you multiple seconds to aim through glass. Your reflexes would be moving faster than they ever have in your entire life. Point firing is incredibly easy close quarters so again are you suggesting if i raise a rifle at someones tosoe that ecompasses the entire rifle that somehow the rounds should miss as if to come out of the barrel at 90 degrees? Again the problem is being able to move with no major accuracy penalty. If someone runs into my face and I dump a magazine at high ready they should feel it. Now if I am running around a corner and do the same thing well then yes there should be a penalty.

I have said it many times; when your head bob mechanic while moving is stronger than your rifle recoil while moving there is a serious problem with your games gunplay ...

Edited January 3, 2021 by InsightKnight

[johncage213]

no karma system, just mindless shoot on sight. really hope they implement pve. it's really the only way to save this game

[SlavDawg]

Agree with almost all of the points OP is pointing out.

at this point I really hate the fact that at some point it becomes just a COD game. All people know what guns are "meta" the skill elements are leveled up to maximum the PMC does become almost a superman.. you have 50/60kg  of equipment and still able to bunny hop.. or move like crazy ADADADAD and manage to give head shot whilst doing so.

I still think they need to remove the skill recoil completely and let players control recoil what will show who is really skilled at aiming and who is not. 

I have bought this game in 2017 as I loved the concept back in the day, unfortunate this is currently doing a complete opposite of what it suppose to be: a hardcore realistic survival shooter with RPG elements.

 

 

[MTZtje]

Agree with all of the above, especially the fact its heading the wrong way. I'm a relatively new player but i have encountered enough to have a few thoughts.

The movement, the spawns, the weapons, the wishes of the dev team (console port, really?)
The spawns especially, what fun is it to spawn next to eachother with these loading times?
Also; i do not think its hard to fix the spawns. Just think of it like if A is taken A1,A2,A3 can't be used (spots around it). It isnt hard to fix this extreme issue allot (most) people experience, its not rocket science.

As said above; the superman physics, what is this, call of duty?
You either call a book by its cover or dont pretend its something which it is clearly not.

Obviously the popularity is nice but i guess there might be too much money coming in, as its just becoming another (name one out of the other 249876) shooter(s).

./end rant