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Bolt Action Buff


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Starioshka

Currently there's no good reason to use Bolt Action Sniper Rifles since semi autos can do everything better.

Adding major recoil and accuracy debuffs (+30) on high end ammo (high penetration, under 80 damage) would make them difficult to use on semi auto/ full auto rifles, but essential for Bolt action guns which would have buffed stats by default to negate the accuracy loss. 

This would simply open up more options in regards to how one could play, hopefully without bringing back the boring one-tap to the chest that we had with mosin.

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p4nnus

check this out.

It explains pretty well why bolt-action guns are basically obsolete already. Theres not many pros to them, especially at the ranges we shoot at in EFT.

They shoot the same bullets as other semi-auto variants, so no reason for them to do any more dmg. They are mostly a bit more accurate, which can be helpful for people who shoot at extreme ranges. Those people are not a huge group anyways., not that it matters.

Your way of thinking is basically going bottom first in to a tree. It makes literally no sense in a game that aims for realism (to some extent) with the ballistics etc.

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p4nnus
10 minutes ago, Starioshka said:

@p4nnus Try reading again, because I haven't mentioned damage increase even once.

Don't care one bit about realism.

Oops, it seems you forgot that semi-autos dont have that much more recoil and they are almost as accurate at these ranges. 

If you dont care one bit about realism, I would suggest you play COD or Battlefield! :schappy:

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Yeavo
7 hours ago, Starioshka said:

What's with the attitude problems and how would you solve the near-useless-bolty problem?

Lower the price and make them available at lower levels.

Edited by Yeavo
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drdskidrow
7 часов назад, Starioshka сказал:

@p4nnus What's with the attitude problems and how would you solve the near-useless-bolty problem?

This game has a lot of weapons and a lot of mods for the sake of variety but a lot of them are garbage. I sometimes run bolt action sniper rifles for fun like Orsis' or DVL's but I don't expect much out of the raids because as the other guy said bolt actions are obsolete and a thing of the past. You've also got APB/APS pistols with drum mags that no1 uses, makarovs are garbage, SAIGA-9 is completely useless, etc. etc.

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Spectator6
16 minutes ago, Yeavo said:

Lower the price and make them available at lower levels.

Yep, I agree. They should be priced and made available accordingly.

Now, that said, I think players are in for a rude awakening. Because the ways in which the platforms are obsolete (fire rate and reload intricacies) may not have too much of a bearing on EFT in the hands of a prudent player who keeps his distance.

Why?

Because two or three well place shots from a shooter well concealed and in cover can be devastating to a squad (read: *SHOULD* be devastating...) irregardless of manual or semi. Unfortunately, BSG keeps messing with the damage/health values to further emphasize (require?) full-auto gunplay.

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p4nnus
8 hours ago, Starioshka said:

@p4nnus What's with the attitude problems and how would you solve the near-useless-bolty problem?

You come to the forums of a game that aims for realism(to some extent), suggest features and then say you dont care one bit about realism? I dont have an attitude problem, but I do think that its waste of your time to try to change EFT to be less realistic, when the direction should be and according to BSG will be towards the other way. Thus, as its a waste of your time, you should seek these less realistic bolt-action vs semi mechanics from a different game instead of trying to change EFT for the worse.

No need of solving, its not a problem, they are useless IRL so they should be useless in EFT too. If there will be longer distances in the open-world map or streets of Tarkov, bolt actions could shine there with their accuracy. I doubt the ranges are much above the 500-700 thats pretty much the max realistic kill distance in the maps we already have, so the semi-auto rifles we have will do just fine at these ranges, just like they do now.

That said, if sth is done, it should be with the availability as someone suggested. 

Did you stop to think about the fact, that the first .338 we got is a semi-auto rifle? 

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XxFGLxX

Bolt actions are mainly invalid, unless it’s long ranges.

Semi autos suffer where the gas expended on the piston to cycle the next round, robs some velocity from the round.

bolt actions recoil more, due to no buffers.

About the only Buff I would support to bolt actions are faster bullet velocity.

An as your skill increases, the bolt cycling gets wicked fast.

I.E no wrist turn at bolt rotation,  it rather spun on palm. Now If that’s already a thing I think it’s golden. Just my .02

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dark2000
2 hours ago, XxFGLxX said:

Bolt actions are mainly invalid, unless it’s long ranges.

Semi autos suffer where the gas expended on the piston to cycle the next round, robs some velocity from the round.

bolt actions recoil more, due to no buffers.

About the only Buff I would support to bolt actions are faster bullet velocity.

An as your skill increases, the bolt cycling gets wicked fast.

I.E no wrist turn at bolt rotation,  it rather spun on palm. Now If that’s already a thing I think it’s golden. Just my .02

Semi autos usually do not suffer from gas cycling, because gas block are usually at the end of the barrel, so bullet get's most of it's veloncity in the part of the barrel that have no holes.

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viper921
On 1/12/2021 at 6:04 PM, p4nnus said:

No need of solving, its not a problem, they are useless IRL so they should be useless in EFT too. If there will be longer distances in the open-world map or streets of Tarkov, bolt actions could shine there with their accuracy. I doubt the ranges are much above the 500-700 thats pretty much the max realistic kill distance in the maps we already have, so the semi-auto rifles we have will do just fine at these ranges, just like they do now.

Better tell the Marines that bolt actions are useless, they just developed, finished trails on, and deployed a new one for nothing. https://www.marines.mil/News/News-Display/Article/1907257/corps-new-sniper-rifle-now-fully-operational/

Bolt actions are very accurate for what it costs to build them. Can you buy a semi-auto 7.62x51 that is just as accurate as a cheaper bolt action, sure it will just cost a lot more due to the precision machining needed. comparing a Mosin to an AR platform wasn't even being developed when the Mosin was first produced. an AR platform vs an SV-98 would be a better comparison.

You can buy a Mosin with a scope mount for cheaper than most pistols, the game should reflect that better.

 

 

 

 

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p4nnus
15 minutes ago, viper921 said:

Better tell the Marines that bolt actions are useless, they just developed, finished trails on, and deployed a new one for nothing. https://www.marines.mil/News/News-Display/Article/1907257/corps-new-sniper-rifle-now-fully-operational/

Bolt actions are very accurate for what it costs to build them. Can you buy a semi-auto 7.62x51 that is just as accurate as a cheaper bolt action, sure it will just cost a lot more due to the precision machining needed. comparing a Mosin to an AR platform wasn't even being developed when the Mosin was first produced. an AR platform vs an SV-98 would be a better comparison.

You can buy a Mosin with a scope mount for cheaper than most pistols, the game should reflect that better.

The context matters in this one. We are not talking about extreme ranges with EFT, but closed areas where the ranges never get above, 700m. What do you think, would a marine choose a bolt action to these kind of conditions or not? In a sort of SERE situation? 

If you watch the video, youll understand better.
This is the video I meant to link

Nothing you say doesnt change the fact that they are obsolete. Them being obsolete doesnt mean that they are not still used and probably will be for quite some time. Its just the fact that semi-autos have catched up in the quality and accuracy side of things, so theres no reason to use a bolt-action rifle if there is a choice. (Unless its these extreme ranges, but again, thats not relevant with EFT)

OP wanted to make unrealistic nerfs to semi-autos so the bolt-action rifles feel more powerful. Dont tell me your in favor of that. :scwhistle:

 

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Starioshka

@p4nnus It's sad how you spout all mighty about realism and yet you're okay with dying from 2 shots to the chest which is nearly impossible in a real life scenario. This is a game, it will never be simulation tier realistic because that's absolutely boring. If you want "Realism" go play insurgency. If you want actual realism play EFT in it's current 12.9 state. What I and the small minority of people who actually play the game, instead of crying about gear chads, is more options and choice. 

EFT is a true RPG. Your actions have consequences and you have many choices to deal with problems. Let's not dumb it down to "tactical shooter" levels.

@drdskidrow

Saiga-9: high accuracy, low recoil, extremely cheap, mediocre round

Makarov: Hatchling run with ranged weapon

APS: perfect for that one 3 PMC kill quest with pistols

And I'm not making stuff up to spite you. This game is about OPTIONS and Possibilities, which apparently you fail to see.

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p4nnus
18 hours ago, Starioshka said:

 It's sad how you spout all mighty about realism and yet you're okay with dying from 2 shots to the chest which is nearly impossible in a real life scenario. This is a game, it will never be simulation tier realistic because that's absolutely boring. If you want "Realism" go play insurgency. If you want actual realism play EFT in it's current 12.9 state. What I and the small minority of people who actually play the game, instead of crying about gear chads, is more options and choice. 

EFT is a true RPG. Your actions have consequences and you have many choices to deal with problems. Let's not dumb it down to "tactical shooter" level

Realism is a spectrum. Ive never claimed that EFT will be the Matrix. Im actually all for a critical hit zone feature, like theres in Red Orchestra series. When you get shot in the heart or spine, for example, you die. The round should ofc hit these parts with enough force, so a round that barely penetrates an armor plate wouldnt always do the job. But wait.. did I say I was fine with something related to shots in the chest? Dont remember doing so, I think you imagined that part. :usmile:

I dont even really know if youre saying that 2 shots to the chest is too much or too little. It all depends on the situation. Ofc balance is needed too, I dont think the 85 hp thorax ruined the game, but I didnt think the change was needed either. I was not getting one tapped too much, but then again I never played this like some COD game, running around like a headless chicken.

Hahahah Insurgency. Everything from movement speed, ADS time, recoil, TTK and weapon sway have been changed to be more casual, against the "semi-realistic" tones it used to have (read: semi) all just to make the game more for the casual audience. I have nothing good to say about that game anymore, except maybe for the gore, thats cool.

Im not saying that the current state wouldnt be quite realistic. Its not as unrealistic as some people think, but then again some things are very unrealistic, like helmets and armor (which will get better when the plate hitboxes are added sometime in 2021 presumably).

Dumb it down to tactical shooter level? Thats the craziest sentence Ive read.. well.. maybe this week, I read a lot of crazy sentences from silly people here on the forums. :sctroll: But yeah, if you listen to Nikita speak about EFT, its bound to get a lot more tactical, more complex, probably a lot more slower pace due to inertia and armor changes, etc. More realism = more HC = more like a tactical shooter, as youre gonna need to use (realistic) tactics and strategies more to survive consistently.

This thread was about making bolt-actions better by unrealistically making semi-auto rifles worse. How has ANYTHING you are rambling about have anything to do with that? 

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drdskidrow
В 14.01.2021 в 21:47, Starioshka сказал:

@p4nnus It's sad how you spout all mighty about realism and yet you're okay with dying from 2 shots to the chest which is nearly impossible in a real life scenario. This is a game, it will never be simulation tier realistic because that's absolutely boring. If you want "Realism" go play insurgency. If you want actual realism play EFT in it's current 12.9 state. What I and the small minority of people who actually play the game, instead of crying about gear chads, is more options and choice. 

EFT is a true RPG. Your actions have consequences and you have many choices to deal with problems. Let's not dumb it down to "tactical shooter" levels.

@drdskidrow

Saiga-9: high accuracy, low recoil, extremely cheap, mediocre round

Makarov: Hatchling run with ranged weapon

APS: perfect for that one 3 PMC kill quest with pistols

And I'm not making stuff up to spite you. This game is about OPTIONS and Possibilities, which apparently you fail to see.

you might like niche guns, I respect that, I personally haven't seen anyone run those guns apart from super low levels that got their gear from scav runs most likely. You've got options but there are far more better options that those by a mile and at a very insgnificant difference in cost. M9A3 for instance is better than all of those 3 you mentioned, so is the glock and it's very popular. Personally I did my PMC kills with a TT  and an m45 in 2 runs.

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viper921
On 1/13/2021 at 7:07 PM, p4nnus said:

OP wanted to make unrealistic nerfs to semi-autos so the bolt-action rifles feel more powerful. Dont tell me your in favor of that. :scwhistle:

No I don't but I think but real world testing shows that you hit more shots with less ammo using a bolt action, sometimes you want to take that first shot and hit with it. Here is a comparison of modern weapons to show that, not a WW 1 gun vs a brand new gun. The semi-wins as I would expect at only 327m, but notice how many misses the bolt-action has in comparison.

 

 

 

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p4nnus
1 hour ago, viper921 said:

No I don't but I think but real world testing shows that you hit more shots with less ammo using a bolt action, sometimes you want to take that first shot and hit with it. Here is a comparison of modern weapons to show that, not a WW 1 gun vs a brand new gun. The semi-wins as I would expect at only 327m, but notice how many misses the bolt-action has in comparison.

Yeah you do, but thats not always the case when someone is firing back at you. When this is the case, or when the distances vary much more and you have CQB and who knows what situations, theres absolutely no reason to use a bolty. Watch the video (the 2nd one, which  I meant to post).

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viper921
2 hours ago, p4nnus said:

when someone is firing back at you.

If your a sniper team alone and being engaged, its time to move. If your a sniper team attached to a unit they are laying down fire too.

2 hours ago, p4nnus said:

When this is the case, or when the distances vary much more and you have CQB and who knows what situations

This is why you can carry 2 weapons IRL and in game. many backpacks are actually made with a sleeve for a bolt action rifle. Generally you want to keep your bolt actions barrel "cold" or un-fired until your ready to use it for a shot where you need it. Since barrel characteristics change as you fire rounds and warm up a barrel. This way your first cold shot will be accurate.

2 hours ago, p4nnus said:

Watch the video (the 2nd one, which  I meant to post).

I watched it, they compare ww1 / ww2 bolt actions to an m1, a ww2 rifle.

you want a modern bolt action in game to make a shot like this:

 

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Jsaccs

As others have pointed out, bolts dont really have a place in the game 90% of the time. But i do feel that having some sort of recoil penalty or minimum recoil on high pen ammo is needed. They already use this feature but it feels like it needs to be upped. Being able to spray m995 with 40 vertical recoil at 800 rpm is just nutty. For example, .366 ap has a whopping 35% recoil modifier.

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Saint_Ajora

Guys, the streamers just got BSG to nerf boltys (again). It's probably not changing back anytime soon. Bolt actions NEED to hit that first shot to be at all viable. Snipers should be feared and carefully hunted, not charged at through open fields. When you hear the crack of a Mosin, M700, or DVL; your first thought should not be "lets go charge straight at them." It should be "crap, we gotta avoid his kill zone and flank them."

MBAGA (Make Bolt Actions Great Again)

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Yeavo
1 hour ago, Saint_Ajora said:

Guys, the streamers just got BSG to nerf boltys (again). It's probably not changing back anytime soon. Bolt actions NEED to hit that first shot to be at all viable. Snipers should be feared and carefully hunted, not charged at through open fields.

Here is what grinds my gears so much about Tarkovs current direction. Streamers and new players want to make it all about aggressive charging and reaction time head clicks. Exact skill set you need in CS:GO minus the team tactics because no bomb plants.

On 1/14/2021 at 9:47 PM, Starioshka said:

It's sad how you spout all mighty about realism and yet you're okay with dying from 2 shots to the chest which is nearly impossible in a real life scenario.

Sure. People don't die from getting shot to the thorax and stomach, but they sure as hell won't keep fighting for long. So effectively they are out of the fight. If BSG decides to add a mechanic that makes you fall down and wait there for medical assistance I'm all aboard thorax shots not killing you but until then the next most realistic thing is just making so that you die. And no need to post articles about outliers. We also have people who have had bullets go straight through their head, between the brain lobes and survived with most of their body and mental functions intact. Those are outliers. Do the exitance of such people mean EfT should realistically have bulletsponge head hitboxes?

Quote

This is a game, it will never be simulation tier realistic because that's absolutely boring.

https://www.escapefromtarkov.com/#about says "Escape from Tarkov is a hardcore and realistic online first-person action RPG/Simulator with MMO features and a story-driven walkthrough."

So @p4nnus is right about what EfT should be, since that is the game that was sold to him (and to me). He should just stop being a optimistic fanboy and start being a bit more sceptic about the current direction.

Edited by Yeavo
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Yeavo
On 1/14/2021 at 3:07 AM, p4nnus said:

If you watch the video, youll understand better.
This is the video I meant to link

Ian and Carl make a great point, when applied to short and medium ranges. Bolt actions aren't combat rifles, and haven't been since the widespread adaption self-loading rifles. 

However that's not all that there is to it. Bolt-action is simply the most reliable option when you need to deliver that 1 deadly accurate shot over longer distances. That is the reason they are still used by snipers all over the world and in every military. I believe FDF only uses SVD:s in urban environment where distances are negligible, everywhere else its Sako TRG (and I've seen some weird 80s "modernized" Mosin-Nagant being used by the Finns as well). There is a reason why snipers or at the very least their spotter carries a selectfire rifle in addition to bolt-action rifle.

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GeneralBrus

Bolt-action rifles are definitely more accurate than your regular DMR at longer ranges.

While in games like arma, where your regular fighting range is over 200 meters bolt-actions can have a realistic accuracy advantage, especially when your fighting range even gets beyond 1000 meters ( which happens a lot in arma and mods)

tarkovs problem is that you never fight someone whos more than 100 meters away, unless maybe some troll is trying to snipe on top of the reserve dome, but even than the fighting range wont get beyond 300 meters,  so its obvious that semi auto DMRs deal the same amount of dmg  per shot than a bolt action, and as long as those sniper bullets wont one hit kill, being able to do follow up shots is always the better choice. 

And for every one of you Uber Lords that think headshots should be the way to go for every gun:

no need to even take a DMR then.... regual AK with PSO will do the job even better cuz its cheaper and has a large mag.

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GeneralBrus
On 1/14/2021 at 8:47 PM, Starioshka said:

 It's sad how you spout all mighty about realism and yet you're okay with dying from 2 shots to the chest which is nearly impossible in a real life scenario. This is a game, it will never be simulation tier realistic because that's absolutely boring.

Can you pls stop using the same nonsense all the time?

being dead and not being able to fight back is effectively is the thing. because both scenarios will cause that you lose and die, at least eventually!

In tarkov you can survive 15 shots without wearing armor, and even worse you can still be 100% combat ready after these 15 shots. This is breaking the immersion! 

In real life your hit 3 times? THATS IT, YOUR OUT! 

Most realism shooters know that its difficult to introduce a system where you get decapacitated after you get hit, so they just tend to let you die, which is in itself not realistic cuz you don't necessarily die after you get your legs blown off and your arms cut off, now tell me tho, can you still fight having no limbs left?

If your hit in your stomach, your entire stance will be messed up, your back muscles hold your body together and carry the weight of your upper body!

Sure if a small piece of shrapnel gets stuck in your chest, or if a 9mm bullet passes through your Kevlar armor after losing 90% of its velocity, you can still stand aim and return fire, WITH GREAT PAIN THO, which will still influence your accuracy.

AND THIS NONSENSE: "This is a game, it will never be a simulation tier realistic because that's absolutely boring"

Its boring to you not to us!

So a fast time to kill is something that will please most ppl that want realism in a "HaRdcOrE sHoOteR"... sadly this description has lost its original meaning, some of the forum mods had been using the word "immersive" instead of hardcore or realistic.... and thats probably a smart idea.

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