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Body temperature lowering injector vs thermal camo cloaks/clothing


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p4nnus

BSG and other forum users,

I saw the moment when Klean suggested that you should add an injector to give the player "cold blooded" in the podcast late last year. Now you have implemented the concept at least to the data files of the game, thus it seems like you are actually considering it. While I dont think that it would ruin the game, I think it shouldnt make you completely invisible in the thermal, otherwise it stretches what is believable way too far and makes the injector too good of a counter. I suggest 3 different solutions for the problem:

1) As its known that the sight picture we see in thermals is due to change, as the temperature differences of the environment will be taken in to account later on as varying heat signatures in different objects. This will make the thermals more realistic and distinguishing targets a little bit harder. With that change coming in the future, the best way to implement this planned stimulant injector would be so, that it only makes your heat signature 50% dimmer. In essence this would mean that a moving target, especially out in the open, would still be spotted by a player with a thermal and good sight. However, someone moving from cover to cover in a concealed way would be significantly harder for the enemy to spot, just by using the thermal.

2) The stim makes you practically almost invisible, reducing your heat signature by 75-80%%, but if you run, your body temperature quickly rises even with the stimulant being active, thus revealing a slightly less visible (40-50% dimmer), but still somewhat visible heat signature to a thermal user with good vision. 

3) Forget the unrealistic and silly stim injector, which was suggested to you with a COD term and implement clothing / accessories that prevent your heat from getting out or shield you from thermals. This way of handling the situation would require more effort in dev't, but would be considerably more realistic and would also add to the tacticoolness factor in many ways. It could be either clothing that is maybe level capped at 35-40, maybe reducing the signature with 50% or 75%, with the running penalty still there. If it was an item, it could be i.e. a cloak that would either take up your backpack slot, headgear slot, both, or a new slot thats meant for it. This new slot could be for example this "special gear slot", which could be used with a ghillie as well.

Some ghillies have anti-thermal capabilities, but as with the other clothing/accessory options, some parts would always be at least partly visible in thermal (i.e. hands and eyes 50% dimmer, rest 75% if the PMC doesnt run). The thermal cloak (and ghillie too, why not?) could also have lesser visibility, something like the monocular NVG, thus giving it a downside. It could also have movement and head turning penalties and a hydration penalty of, i.e. 10% or 15%. If this was the case, this hydration penalty for a ghillie suit should be 30-50%.

Here is a picture of the cloak we use in FDF, as an AT SL I can confirm that anti-thermal gear is absolutely essential during this age, especially when drones are getting more common too.

image.png.a0a6d71084160b5cd8495f1d135b6593.png

To be clear: I understand that a counter for thermals is wanted, which is totally OK as pretty much all modern militaries are trying to actively develop such counter-measures too. I just wish it is done in a fashion, that doesnt make thermals obsolete and is a little bit more realistic than an injector that makes you Dr. Victor Fries for a moment. Nikita himself said, when talking about thermals: "Thermal is a game changer, its a life changer.. modern combat, modern war right now is all about drones and thermals, if you have them you have a superiority . . .in-game its kinda the same". To which Klean, whom I respect, responded with the suggestion about the stim. 

Also note, that everything and especially everything thats high-end, rare and very effective (thermals, best stims, best AP rounds) will be MUCH more scarce in the release ready EFT. This has been confirmed by BSG numerous times. 

So BSG, I know it would be a lot easier to just add this and call it a day, as Klean suggested, than implementing complex features like an anti-thermal cloak, but please be considerate about this feature and dont remove one part of the gameplay entirely with a single stim. All comments and critique would be greatly appreciated! :usmile:

 

Edited by p4nnus
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GeneralBrus
11 minutes ago, p4nnus said:

While I dont think that it would ruin the game, I think it shouldnt make you completely invisible in the thermal, otherwise it stretches what is believable way too far and makes the injector too good of a counter. I suggest 3 different solutions for the problem:

thermals are unrealistically OP, and a bloody "anti thermal vaccine" would also be unrealistically OP.

Is BSG seriously considering this? lol

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p4nnus
Just now, GeneralBrus said:

thermals are unrealistically OP, and a bloody "anti thermal vaccine" would also be unrealistically OP.

Is BSG seriously considering this? lol

Why are thermals unrealistically OP in your mind? 

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TechoverMana
1 hour ago, GeneralBrus said:

Is BSG seriously considering this?

Yes, any sort of realism has long left, we're straight up magic now. They can just go ahead and add in the mutants and unicorns already. BSG doesn't care anymore.

And they aren't realistically OP, thermals are in fact greatly underpowered for how their actual real performance is, (refresh rate is smooth 60HZ, not choppy whatever they have in the game, and greater range, digital zoom up to 8x on top of the 2.5 optical in game, and greater clarity than shown, ect)

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Spectator6

Excellent post @p4nnus!

I especially like your no 1 suggestion, though I know this can be a quite difficult nut to crack from an implementation/programming standpoint across EFT's entire asset base.

5 hours ago, p4nnus said:

1) As its known that the sight picture we see in thermals is due to change, as the temperature differences of the environment will be taken in to account later on as varying heat signatures in different objects. This will make the thermals more realistic and distinguishing targets a little bit harder. With that change coming in the future, the best way to implement this planned stimulant injector would be so, that it only makes your heat signature 50% dimmer. In essence this would mean that a moving target, especially out in the open, would still be spotted by a player with a thermal and good sight. However, someone moving from cover to cover in a concealed way would be significantly harder for the enemy to spot, just by using the thermal.

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ACuddlyBadger

Countering thermals is as simple as wearing clothing with insulation sandwiched between 2 layers of mylar. Insurgencies have been hiding under mylar for the longest time now. You can get simple backpacking tarps backed with mylar for dirt cheap today, those will block thermals if you fashion a cloak out of them. With fans, you can vent all your body heat out the bottom of your pants if you got a battery to power them. You can hide from thermals behind a window.  But in Tarkov, none of those limitations exist, so just simply remove thermals until they can be countered in a real and believable way. Not with some stupid ass needle potion. 

 

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Andrudis
10 hours ago, p4nnus said:

So BSG, I know it would be a lot easier to just add this and call it a day, as Klean suggested, than implementing complex features like an anti-thermal cloak, but please be considerate about this feature and dont remove one part of the gameplay entirely with a single stim. All comments and critique would be greatly appreciated! :usmile:

Nobody said stim will be the only way to counter thermals - they can add more later. Stim is the fastest way to test concept, because animation is already there and stim object - just the same object as other stims with different coloring. Also stim have limited by time effect(unlike having anti-thermal clothing) and can have drawbacks, even significant ones.

Also body temperature management is not yet in the game, but it was promised to be a thing to consider, so, possible, we can test both concepts at once.

As we are here to test and give feedback - that is what we should focus on. It is impossible to say before testing if this stim will be hard-counter to thermals, or something mostly useless. The final implementation is still far from now.

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p4nnus
11 hours ago, TechoverMana said:

And they aren't realistically OP, thermals are in fact greatly underpowered for how their actual real performance is, (refresh rate is smooth 60HZ, not choppy whatever they have in the game, and greater range, digital zoom up to 8x on top of the 2.5 optical in game, and greater clarity than shown, ect)

While I dont agree with everything you say, this is correct. Thermals are implemented in a way, where they are not as useful as they would be IRL. This is lost to many who think they are OP: they are already "balanced" by the refresh rate, bad image quality, inability to see thermal signatures to the correct distances and lack of correct zooms. 

Im not saying that there shouldnt be a balance with thermals too, but it should be done with availability & accessibility, just like all the other very powerful assets. In other words, these devices should be extremely rare, even way more rare than now (which will be the case in release ready EFT if the vision stays the same). 

The counters should be done in a realistic fashion, that doesnt make EFT fit in the Batman lore.

8 hours ago, Spectator6 said:

I especially like your no 1 suggestion, though I know this can be a quite difficult nut to crack from an implementation/programming standpoint across EFT's entire asset base.

Thanks for the kind words! I know this part requires a lot of work, but BSG has mentioned the intention of making the environment richer in different warmth heat signatures. No details about this for a long time, but no contradicting info about it either, so Id expect this to happen at some point. Probably when they add the rest of the thermals. Nikita has said that they are planning on many other thermal devices as well and they will add them all together so that the balancing can truly begin in this regard. 

8 hours ago, ACuddlyBadger said:

But in Tarkov, none of those limitations exist, so just simply remove thermals until they can be countered in a real and believable way. Not with some stupid ass needle potion. 

Are you sure you can see through windows with them currently? Im pretty sure you cant..

I dont think we need to remove thermals, they are not that common that the WIP nature of them would create such big problems. I havent felt that way anyways and I do raid night raids quite often. But yeah, I agree, would personally want some other way of handling this as "stupid needle potions"! :schappy:

3 hours ago, Andrudis said:

Nobody said stim will be the only way to counter thermals - they can add more later. Stim is the fastest way to test concept, because animation is already there and stim object - just the same object as other stims with different coloring. Also stim have limited by time effect(unlike having anti-thermal clothing) and can have drawbacks, even significant ones.

You are absolutely correct, but as Klean suggested this feature, he used the phrase "just implement these injectors and be done with it"

I know it might just be a choice of words, but I also can imagine that its a lucrative idea to just have this as the counter and forget about realistic ways of countering thermals. 

Also, these injectors dont really work in a way where they would give data about other possible means. We dont know much, but so far the suggestion was "hide people from thermals" and then the "confirmation" about this suggestion being dev't by the discovery of these files. So we dont know if they truly hide people entirely from thermals, which is why Im making this suggestion; if these stims are introduced to the game, they shouldnt make you invisible. -7 C from body temp wouldnt really make you invisible to a thermal, it would just make your signature a little bit less visible. Still very visible tho. What I suggest can, when properly used, shield you entirely from a thermal when you also use natural concealment. 

3 hours ago, Andrudis said:

Also body temperature management is not yet in the game, but it was promised to be a thing to consider, so, possible, we can test both concepts at once.

As we are here to test and give feedback - that is what we should focus on. It is impossible to say before testing if this stim will be hard-counter to thermals, or something mostly useless. The final implementation is still far from now.

Ofc, you are correct. But this is not feedback, this is a suggestion about a feature we havent seen yet but is coming. This could serve as an idea for the first implementation of such stim. Thats the point of this post.

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TechoverMana
4 hours ago, p4nnus said:

The counters should be done in a realistic fashion

12 hours ago, ACuddlyBadger said:

so just simply remove thermals until they can be countered in a real and believable way.

Why should they bother when clearly it's clear no one cares about the realism thing. At this point they might as well just add a force field generator that has some flavor text saying it stops heat from escaping or something, like a James Bond watch that you just click and you turn invisible on thermals for 30s, and it needs 300s to recharge before another use, or just make it where the thermals only can give little 'pings' of something, or whatever they do. No reason demand BSG comes up with a realistic counter against something that's not even being done remotely realistically in the first place.

Why should a thermal cloaking stim bother you when we've already got a bunch of regeneration stims, stims that let you tank more bullets, instantly stops bleeds without just clotting up your entire bloodstream and killing you anyway, ect. Magic begets magic.

 

4 hours ago, p4nnus said:

that doesnt make EFT fit in the Batman lore

It's already far too late for that one. Batman would be envious of some of the things being passed around in Tarkov.

 

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p4nnus
18 hours ago, TechoverMana said:

Why should they bother when clearly it's clear no one cares about the realism thing. At this point they might as well just add a force field generator that has some flavor text saying it stops heat from escaping or something, like a James Bond watch that you just click and you turn invisible on thermals for 30s, and it needs 300s to recharge before another use, or just make it where the thermals only can give little 'pings' of something, or whatever they do. No reason demand BSG comes up with a realistic counter against something that's not even being done remotely realistically in the first place.

Your over-exaggeration is not beneficial to you nor the conversation. We both know that BSG dont want the setting to be completely bonkers, they want it to be believable. I believe full realism was never intended, if it was promised this mustve been mostly due to Nikitas bad english at the time. He corrected his statement to "as realistic as playable", not to claim that we are there yet. I believe we will get at least closer to that, but what Im sure of is that there is no intention of bringing some James Bond gadgets to the game. A chemical to lower your body temp is closer to being a possibility, a believable feature, than some force field. The latter is IMO, but I think you know that James Bond gadgets are not sth BSG is after, if you think about what has been implemented and said. The story revolves around TerraGroup making fishy chemical experiments in Tarkov, these experimental and weird stims fits in this world. 

Weve had a lot of discussions go towards "realism or not" and "BSG is lying about everything or not" lately, so Id like for this discussion to be about this feature and suggestion and not about those subjects in general. You can believe in as many conspiracy theories as you want, but lets talk about these stims and more realistic ways to implement counters to the thermal in this thread.

18 hours ago, TechoverMana said:

Why should a thermal cloaking stim bother you when we've already got a bunch of regeneration stims, stims that let you tank more bullets, instantly stops bleeds without just clotting up your entire bloodstream and killing you anyway, ect. Magic begets magic.

Because those stims are not making a single feature of the game obsolete. They have found their place in the game, but might still be tweaked as BSG has said that the medical features will get more complex and will be further balanced. They dont win a firefight IMO, they are there to help if used correctly but dont change the tide of the firefights on their own, too much at least. Not to say that we'd know if the new stim would do that, but this post was to suggest ways of implementing this new stim with a guarantee that it wouldnt make thermals obsolete. 

About the other stims, I wanna tell you sth. I never use them. I dont even use morphine. I use basic meds like IFAKs and Salewas and painkillers. The basic painkillers. And I do just fine. Ive never felt that people with stims would gain an edge on me. If someone thinks that the stims boost someones performance so much, that they are OP now, and they die to enemies gaining an advantage from stims, they should investigate their firefights and try to find other problems in them first, IMO.

To conclude this; I also dont think that BSG is actively lying about the fact that the medical system will see a heavy balancing act, nor that they would lie about new conditions still being on the way. Whats been said is that EFT will become much more HC than it is now and having less opportunities to recover from firefights without retreating would fit in what has been said. 

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p4nnus
18 hours ago, TechoverMana said:

It's already far too late for that one. Batman would be envious of some of the things being passed around in Tarkov.

You should really start to realize that EFT is not done yet. If you do think that it has reached its final form in these regards, why are you even playing it or discussing it on the forums? If Id believe that so passionately, I wouldve left already. Not asking you to leave nor to shut up, just saying..

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TechoverMana
9 hours ago, p4nnus said:

We both know that BSG dont want the setting to be completely bonkers, they want it to be believable.

The regen stim and thermal stim, the magic painkillers, ect are bonkers. They are not believable unless your operating fantasy v realism scale only goes from DBZ to Metal Gear Solid.

9 hours ago, p4nnus said:

I believe full realism was never intended

I agree with you on that now. It was never intended, just advertised as such, falsely, for a year or two.

9 hours ago, p4nnus said:

bringing some James Bond gadgets to the game

Again, they're already in the game. James Bond wishes he could get Q to whip up half the medical items in the game. I'm sure he'd love to be able to fix a gunshot wound in seconds with a quick little autoinjector.

9 hours ago, p4nnus said:

A chemical to lower your body temp is closer to being a possibility, a believable feature, than some force field.

Yes, normally we'd just call the drastic lowering of body temperature hypothermia, which will kill you very quickly, especially lowering it by enough to no longer show up on thermals, aka, room temperature. That usually means you're a corpse. You probably could get such an effect if you injected yourself with enough liquid nitrogen or some other cryogenic material, but with a means of keeping it from instantly boiling in your bloodstream. The added magic comes from making your body suddenly function at room temperature. AKA, working like a zombie, literally walking dead magic. So, no, if anything, the thermal stim is even more unbelievable than a forcefield.

 

9 hours ago, p4nnus said:

lets talk about these stims and more realistic ways to implement counters to the thermal in this thread.

There's already things you can do, most of it is just clothes that reduce (not eliminate) heat signature, something like a ghille suit with enough leaves and branches helps match the environment. But their mind isn't on that, they want a easy stim, something good and gamey. A ghille suit would get too many complaints about balance and crying about hard to pick out snipers. So again, sort of pointless since even the semi-realistic options can't be on the table because the cognitive paradigm are there still. "As realistic as playable" means the realistic option is off the table because it's not 'playable'. So, why bother even with the veneer of it then?

 

9 hours ago, p4nnus said:

They dont win a firefight IMO

Yes, the regen stim that'll recover you mid-fight will have no influence on the outcome, nor I guess would the literal bullet tanking stim, the ability to eat more bullets certainly couldn't swing a fight, or the one that stops bleeds. Do you think steroids and PEDs have no influence on athletic performance?

9 hours ago, p4nnus said:

Whats been said is that EFT will become much more HC

They keep saying it, and it keeps not being true. The game as it is right now is far, far easier to be successful with than it was in the past. Flea market, hideout, 15 min scav runs, within a week people are rolling in cash and gear, and the quests are almost pointless since the flea market pretty much allows you to sidestep them entirely. So no.

9 hours ago, p4nnus said:

having less opportunities to recover from firefights

Yes, and the addition CMS kits and stims really showed their commitment to that idea, and people just regurgitate the lip service thinking its gospel.

9 hours ago, p4nnus said:

If you do think that it has reached its final form in these regards, why are you even playing it or discussing it on the forums?

I don't think its reached its final form, in fact, I think it's going to get worse based on how the last like 10 or so major patches/wipes have been, and I'm mostly just waiting to see how far its going to go, like waiting to see how bad the train wreck is going to get when it finally goes off the rails, or in a sense a canary in a coal mine and trying to chirp out the warnings.

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p4nnus
On 1/19/2021 at 11:48 PM, TechoverMana said:

The regen stim and thermal stim, the magic painkillers, ect are bonkers. They are not believable unless your operating fantasy v realism scale only goes from DBZ to Metal Gear Solid.

Well, a force field gadget would be further stretching what is believable, IMO. But remember, nothing about these stims and painkillers is set in stone, BSG has said this very clearly. It would be beneficial to you to think in less black and white.

On 1/19/2021 at 11:48 PM, TechoverMana said:

I agree with you on that now. It was never intended, just advertised as such, falsely, for a year or two.

You dont take in to account how the language and PR skills of BSG have matured. The scope has also been determined as theyve got more money from sales and more understanding on what they can do with Unity. I agree that they have walked back on some statements, but I still think its understandable. Its their first game of this scope and with this engine. Theres a lot of never been done before mechanics etc, so ofc it will take time to shape up the balance. We are still not even close to it. This all just boils down to the same question: do you believe that BSG will deliver, or for some reason keeps lying but still makes EFT less HC and realistic than it is now. They are saying the opposite as you should know.

On 1/19/2021 at 11:48 PM, TechoverMana said:

Again, they're already in the game. James Bond wishes he could get Q to whip up half the medical items in the game. I'm sure he'd love to be able to fix a gunshot wound in seconds with a quick little autoinjector.

Over-exaggerations, again. Injectors are not gadgets comparable to some force-field generators. Different kind of technology. A gadget would be more mechanical in my understanding, but anyways. You need to also remember that what is seconds to us, is a longer time in EFT world. 

None of this is to say that I would agree with the choices that have been made with stims, but as Ive said, I dont think they really change the tide on battles. Ive never fealt that Im at a disadvantage even If I only use medkits and painkillers. If you feel like you are, you should maybe see if theres sth else to improve in your playing instead of complaining about the injectors.

On 1/19/2021 at 11:48 PM, TechoverMana said:

Yes, normally we'd just call the drastic lowering of body temperature hypothermia, which will kill you very quickly, especially lowering it by enough to no longer show up on thermals, aka, room temperature. That usually means you're a corpse. You probably could get such an effect if you injected yourself with enough liquid nitrogen or some other cryogenic material, but with a means of keeping it from instantly boiling in your bloodstream. The added magic comes from making your body suddenly function at room temperature. AKA, working like a zombie, literally walking dead magic. So, no, if anything, the thermal stim is even more unbelievable than a forcefield.

You would be surprised whats possible with modern chemistry. It could be just lowering the temp of skin tissue blood or veins or sth like that. Yeah, its still not realistic, but more realistic than your silly force field generator. And for example, the regen stims are not so unbelievable, if you stop falsely thinking that the blacked out limb is somehow entirely gone, as its clearly not. We have chemicals IRL that stimulate cell-growth, muscle tissue and other kinds too. 

Eventhough I made this suggestion, its true that we havent seen how this is implemented. Im hoping that it wont totally hide you, but from what we know I fear that might be the case. Ghillie suits have been mentioned to be sth that will be implemented at some point, so Im hoping once thats done, we might get rid of these (if there is a need).

On 1/19/2021 at 11:48 PM, TechoverMana said:

There's already things you can do, most of it is just clothes that reduce (not eliminate) heat signature, something like a ghille suit with enough leaves and branches helps match the environment. But their mind isn't on that, they want a easy stim, something good and gamey. A ghille suit would get too many complaints about balance and crying about hard to pick out snipers. So again, sort of pointless since even the semi-realistic options can't be on the table because the cognitive paradigm are there still. "As realistic as playable" means the realistic option is off the table because it's not 'playable'. So, why bother even with the veneer of it then?

Now you just make this up. There has been mentions of a ghillie suit, which will be implemented at some point. This stim is just much easier to implement so its being tried. As I said, Id prefer the former with no need for a stim like this, even temporarily, but it can be implemented so that it doesnt make thermals obsolete. Thats my main concern.

But yeah, pls dont claim that ghillie suits would be off the table as they have been promised. Thanks!

On 1/19/2021 at 11:48 PM, TechoverMana said:

They keep saying it, and it keeps not being true. The game as it is right now is far, far easier to be successful with than it was in the past. Flea market, hideout, 15 min scav runs, within a week people are rolling in cash and gear, and the quests are almost pointless since the flea market pretty much allows you to sidestep them entirely. So no.

Patience. Maybe you should take a break?

On 1/19/2021 at 11:48 PM, TechoverMana said:

Yes, and the addition CMS kits and stims really showed their commitment to that idea, and people just regurgitate the lip service thinking its gospel.

Patience. BSG has said that everything is placeholder. 

On 1/19/2021 at 11:48 PM, TechoverMana said:

I don't think its reached its final form, in fact, I think it's going to get worse based on how the last like 10 or so major patches/wipes have been, and I'm mostly just waiting to see how far its going to go, like waiting to see how bad the train wreck is going to get when it finally goes off the rails, or in a sense a canary in a coal mine and trying to chirp out the warnings.

A canary in the coal mine, I see. Very noble of you. I can understand that. But yeah, theres been even explanations to why this stage is as it is. The Early Access dev't has been going towards what is a more casual stage, as weve been at the stage of implementing the less demanding and less difficult to dev features. Things like doing surgeries to your buddy, or armors having the plate hitboxes, are more demanding and have been left for a later stage of what is basically a very long open alpha. BSG has stated that during 2021 we will probably start to see a lot of rebalancing, i.e. the meta will be destroyed and everything, as the feature set starts to get closer to finished, if not done entirely. 

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