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Some thoughts on stamina mechanics


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SR_Madruga

First of all I wish all the best for this game and the studio behind it, you're hard workers and such an amazing team.

The recently changes on stamina system, specially when aiming, made me think about some mechanics that I understand are absolutely necessary or need to be revised on the actual state of things, I will enumerate to be more clear:

1 - Two stamina bars makes no sense

thoughts: Let's start from the premise that stamina is an overall physical condition of a being, following that I can't understand how I can sprint 2 miles, stop and aim perfectly, I can even hold my breath... I think stamina should be one bar and all the actions should be taken on that bar, if you sprint a lot you will have to recover before can aim correctly, specially when aiming on a scope or iron sights.

2 - Gun always up stance drain 0 stamina

thoughts: Another thing that clearly is not realistic is the always up stance not draining stamina, as I see it should drain stamina at a lower rate than when you're properly aiming on iron sights or a scope, following that it should exist an action to lower your gun, so you can save stamina, it would make the game more tactical and less call of duty style, it would diminish the hip fire headshots nonsense and slow down a little bit more the raids.

As we move towards an open world scenario I see this features absolutely needed to make people use more brains and less guts...

Thanks for the opportunity to share this.

Edited by SR_Madruga
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gNecrOz
41 minutes ago, SR_Madruga said:

1 - Two stamina bars makes no sense

 

2 - Gun always up stance drain 0 stamina

I disagree with number 1 and I agree with number 2 here is why:

You are using the running of two miles but also referencing yourself. Are you a trained special operative, militia member, or and active soldier in and army? The idea was implemented to show that you can do something like 100 pushups, then stand up and though you could not use your arms, you could do 100 squats after that or jog a mile. We used to have a single stamina bar, it did not play out well. I also do not think anyone in Tarkov is sprinting 2 miles, but I will need to look at the maps and consider. After doing that, using customs for example, taking the longest distance possible from cross roads by the Orange Tanker to Dorms is about 655m which in miles is shy of half a mile. Taking the more optimal route, across the junk bridge and through the woods is even less so at 593m. I asked the question earlier because, the PMCs are trained soldiers. Sprinting some 600 meters should be well within the wheel house of a soldier and being able to aim and react to the situation around them. 

As for number two, I would appreciate a stance change from Point shooting to relaxed or non threatening stance. If they would indeed implement that, then yes, I agree that point shooting should have a steady drain on the arms or some kind of overall arm stamina reduction that could be mitigated with Aim Drills Skill. I would say that a nonthreatening stance in the game would make for some interesting interactions, similar to the friendly wiggle, and allow for more player cooperation or at the very least sabotage. 

Edited by gNecrOz
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SR_Madruga
24 minutes ago, gNecrOz said:

I disagree with number 1 and I agree with number 2 here is why:

You are using the running of two miles but also referencing yourself. Are you a trained special operative, militia member, or and active soldier in and army? The idea was implemented to show that you can do something like 100 pushups, then stand up and though you could not use your arms, you could do 100 squats after that or jog a mile. We used to have a single stamina bar, it did not play out well. I also do not think anyone in Tarkov is sprinting 2 miles, but I will need to look at the maps and consider. After doing that, using customs for example, taking the longest distance possible from cross roads by the Orange Tanker to Dorms is about 655m which in miles is shy of half a mile. Taking the more optimal route, across the junk bridge and through the woods is even less so at 593m. I asked the question earlier because, the PMCs are trained soldiers. Sprinting some 600 meters should be well within the wheel house of a soldier and being able to aim and react to the situation around them. 

As for number two, I would appreciate a stance change from Point shooting to relaxed or non threatening stance. If they would indeed implement that, then yes, I agree that point shooting should have a steady drain on the arms or some kind of overall arm stamina reduction that could be mitigated with Aim Drills Skill. I would say that a nonthreatening stance in the game would make for some interesting interactions, similar to the friendly wiggle, and allow for more player cooperation or at the very least sabotage. 

Thanks for making the post richer @gNecrOz

You made a point on the first case, made me reconsider the idea. It's true that trained people should be capable of similar feats, but I don't see why scavs could do it exactly the same way that PMCs do. Thanks for the beautiful complementation on the second case.

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gNecrOz
5 minutes ago, SR_Madruga said:

Thanks for making the post richer @gNecrOz

You made a point on the first case, made me reconsider the idea. It's true that trained people should be capable of similar feats, but I don't see why scavs could do it exactly the same way that PMCs do. Thanks for the beautiful complementation on the second case.

I also agree with that. SCAVs are scary monsters of inhuman feats of infinite ammo and nearly infinite stamina haha. I would presume that as the game progresses to completion we will see a more tuned in AI and actions for said SCAVs. I feel like the SCAV bosses and their minions should remain unchanged and I won't even talk about Raiders... I still have nightmares. 

Also you are welcome friend. I am not here to fight with people, just have simple discussions and debates, and since I have been here since 2017 (just not super active in the forums till late) I figured I could help to shed light on some past mechanics and reasoning's the old heads of the game bring to the table (myself being an old head as well 

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Jsaccs

Whatever the realistic ideas that may exist in trained forces, in a video game, having 2 different stamina bars promotes run and gun behavior. Which of course is fine if thats the intended goal... But there should be some tweaks; arm stam, IMO, should reduce at a rate dependant on the available run stam. As a quick test, I went into an offline raid. Holding ADS took about 25 seconds or so to drain. Then I sprinted until the stam was 100% gone and then ADS'd; it took the same amount of time to drain the arm stam. This concept seems ridiculous to me. IMO, if your run stam is half gone, your arm stam should drain at double the speed; this is an inverse ratio that constantly changes as you gain/lose stamina.

I like the second idea alot. Being at a constant ready to point-fire with no downsides is a bit too OP, especially considering how bizarrely accurate it is. PUBG of all games, actually has an "aim" function; you have a standard hipfire, an aim fire which is a more accurate hipfire and i think it slows your walking, and then you have your ADS. A similar distinction added to tarkov would justify accurate point-fire (since ive been told its a legitmate and accurate stance IRL in CQC) while also nerfing it in the way that its an actual stance youd have to get into while costing stam.

Youd have to wonder though if itd have to be a low ergo stance, should it take longer to ADS from this "at ease" stance? Makes sense since your gun isnt already at your shoulder.

Edited by Jsaccs
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viper921
4 hours ago, gNecrOz said:

Sprinting some 600 meters should be well within the wheel house of a soldier and being able to aim and react to the situation around them. 

Trained soldier or not, sprinting increases heart-rate which makes its harder to hold muscles still, which makes it hard to aim accurately. No way anyone is going to sprint even 100m with full combat gear, flip around and hit a head-sized target at 100m.

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gNecrOz
2 hours ago, Jsaccs said:

...

Two things, I agree with your idea of the stamina in the arms being tied to a ratio in the legs. That is an interesting concept and I can get behind it. The way it is currently is the arm stamina will begin to drain leg stamina when you deplete the arms and you will begin to shake the gun. 

Second, the other thing to remember about Tarkov is we are not hip firing, this is why it is so accurate. We are point shooting, a method in which you shoot while the but of the rifle is tucked but you are not accurately looking down the iron sights or whatever optic you have out. This why it feels so powerful and why most other shooters that do not use this concept have a "Hip Fire" which is so inaccurate. Thus I like the idea of being able to drop the rifle to a relaxed position, if nothing else to allow for faster stamina regeneration and to allow for no aggressive looking interactions. Something else we have to consider though, there are only so many keys and combinations we have left and I think BSG are slowly running out of ergonomic locations to make this an easy task 🤣

 

1 hour ago, viper921 said:

Trained soldier or not, sprinting increases heart-rate which makes its harder to hold muscles still, which makes it hard to aim accurately. No way anyone is going to sprint even 100m with full combat gear, flip around and hit a head-sized target at 100m.

Correct, this will hopefully be tweaked a little in the movement adjustments that I hear have been mentioned. The "ADADA" that most players even myself, do to make being hit a harder thing, should be removed in this coming patch (Whenever that will be). Also, yes running in full combat gear would indeed put stress and strain on the body, but not everyone is running around with 35+ kilos of weight when a raid starts. I like to run light, I usually wear light rigs, no bags, and light armor with no helmet. I am an average of like 13 Kg depending on my weapon. So with all these variables taken into effect, you have to mess with turning speeds on guns and stamina drains mixed with running etc. We already have Ergo which kind of handles that, but it becomes very complicated and coding is quite complex when it comes to several pools of numbers and algorithms and trying to nail them down exactly. 

I am all about the hyper realism, I mean I play Terrafrimacraft by Dunk when I want to play some mindless MC. So I am all for that, but we have to try to balance the scales here too, at the end of the day it is still a game. A hardcore one, but a game no less, and when things become a little too tedious and complex you have to make a sacrifice somewhere. I feel like this is one of those compromises.

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viper921
2 hours ago, gNecrOz said:

I am all about the hyper realism, I mean I play Terrafrimacraft by Dunk when I want to play some mindless MC. So I am all for that, but we have to try to balance the scales here too, at the end of the day it is still a game.

The issue is they've decided to implement a realistic damage system without a realistic shooting system. A very simple short term fix to this is to have ADS stamina get drained while running and regenerate quickly while walking or standing still. This emulates the heart rate drop after doing things. Also ADS stamina should affect hipfire accuracy.

Having a looping  static ADS stamina per second generated, then actions that drain various ADS stamina per second would solve the issue because then you can make it so you can sprint short distances but still ADS, or hold your sights up for X minutes based on ergo. some example figures below:

  1. Regenerate 100 ADS stamina per second no matter what action, with a pool of 10000 ADS stamina
  2. Sprinting drains 600 ADS stamina per second, so you can sprint for 20 seconds before being out of ADS stamina
  3. Standing aiming Drains 300 ADS stamina per second, so you can stand and ADS in place for 50 seconds.
  4. Crouching aiming Drains 250 ADS stamina per second, so you can stand and ADS in place for 75 seconds.
  5. Prone aiming Drains 200 ADS stamina per second, so you can stand and ADS in place for 100 seconds.
  6. walking drains 25 ADS stamina per second
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Jsaccs
7 hours ago, gNecrOz said:

Second, the other thing to remember about Tarkov is we are not hip firing, this is why it is so accurate. We are point shooting

 

9 hours ago, Jsaccs said:

A similar distinction added to tarkov would justify accurate point-fire (since ive been told its a legitmate and accurate stance IRL in CQC)

Yes, I know 🤪

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gNecrOz
9 hours ago, viper921 said:

The issue is they've decided to implement a realistic damage system without a realistic shooting system. A very simple short term fix to this is to have ADS stamina get drained while running and regenerate quickly while walking or standing still. This emulates the heart rate drop after doing things. Also ADS stamina should affect hipfire accuracy.

Having a looping  static ADS stamina per second generated, then actions that drain various ADS stamina per second would solve the issue because then you can make it so you can sprint short distances but still ADS, or hold your sights up for X minutes based on ergo. some example figures below:

  1. Regenerate 100 ADS stamina per second no matter what action, with a pool of 10000 ADS stamina
  2. Sprinting drains 600 ADS stamina per second, so you can sprint for 20 seconds before being out of ADS stamina
  3. Standing aiming Drains 300 ADS stamina per second, so you can stand and ADS in place for 50 seconds.
  4. Crouching aiming Drains 250 ADS stamina per second, so you can stand and ADS in place for 75 seconds.
  5. Prone aiming Drains 200 ADS stamina per second, so you can stand and ADS in place for 100 seconds.
  6. walking drains 25 ADS stamina per second

I would love to see it tested in the Experimental Servers 👍

 

4 hours ago, Jsaccs said:

Yes, I know 🤪

🥴 sorry I missed that, I Was reading and replying to several posts last night sorry haha 😅

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