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A way to stop hatchet runners. 10 minute loot requirement.


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Evilwayz

I think simply make it a requirement that you need to be in the raid for at least 10 minutes in order to keep the items that you loot. Yes they could still run in and throw things in their gamma case or whichever version they have. If they are killed within that first 10 minute period the items they picked up and placed in their gamma case are then dropped on the ground.

This accomplishes 2 things. 

1. It gives players 10 minutes to hunt down hatchet runners. It also gives them an incentive to do so. If the hatchet runner speeds into a room the other players can still get the loot off of them, even if they shove it in their crate.

2. If they are able to get into the room and get what they want, they have to then successfully survive hiding for 10 minutes before they can leave. This also slows them down. I have seem many hatchet runners speed in and are out of the raid within 2-3 minutes. 

Edited by Evilwayz
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I think simply make it a requirement that you need to be in the raid for at least 10 minutes in order to keep the items that you loot. Yes they could still run in and throw things in their gamma case

Or... don't stop them.  I mean: Are you equally adamant to stop people who spawn rush? People who exit camp? How about all non-chads?  This is literally already the only (non-cheat) play method

Trust me dude, you got bigger problems

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scrappercb

Better yet, just make it that if you don't have a certain number of roubles worth of a load out (Say 50k roubles) you can't bring your secure case.  Hatchet runners who somehow hatchet run to techlight, kill a scav for a gun and make it out of the raid alive aren't the issue after all.  It's the suicidal throw things up my butt as fast as I can before I get my head blown off runners that are the problem.

Anyone that's too poor to afford a 50k rouble load out has scav runs to make the required loot to do so (And anyone that bad prob has bigger problems than hatchet running for graphics cards tbf).

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JerryLove

Or... don't stop them. 

I mean: Are you equally adamant to stop people who spawn rush? People who exit camp? How about all non-chads? 

This is literally already the only (non-cheat) play method that's been coded against... and with two seperate things (death stops found-in-raid and speedrun stops found-in-raid) 

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JerryLove
58 minutes ago, scrappercb said:

Better yet, just make it that if you don't have a certain number of roubles worth of a load out (Say 50k roubles) you can't bring your secure case. 

Or don't let anyone bring a secure case at all. Problem solved. 

It feels a bit like the "my playstyle is valid and yours isn't". 

There's probably a valid middle ground in better map design (put the good stuff behind SCAVS); but I don't really think an immersion breaking restriction in order to try to stop a playstyle is a good choice. 
 

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Hatchet runners who somehow hatchet run to techlight, kill a scav for a gun and make it out of the raid alive aren't the issue after all.  It's the suicidal throw things up my butt as fast as I can before I get my head blown off runners that are the problem.

I wonder how much of an issue it really is though. 

If their haul value is low, I don't see the harm. 
If their haul value is high, then 50k in gear won't be an impediment. (especially if that gear can be put in the case, or is stuff that comes back on insurance, etc)

But this has already been addressed with the "found in raid" requirement for flea-market sales (as well as many quests). 
 

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Anyone that's too poor to afford a 50k rouble load out has scav runs to make the required loot to do so (And anyone that bad prob has bigger problems than hatchet running for graphics cards tbf).

Given my exit rate; I suspect you aren't too far from "enjoyment breaking levels of poor"... but basically I can go in armed because I chose equipment that returns via insurance. 

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THEPaNzEE1

so i have no money no gun an no armor because i die from wall hackers an people camping ill i can do is go in with a axe how else can i play when you dont have anything to go in with because of all the people cheating for loot

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Agris_KR
26 minutes ago, THEPaNzEE1 said:

so i have no money no gun an no armor because i die from wall hackers an people camping ill i can do is go in with a axe how else can i play when you dont have anything to go in with because of all the people cheating for loot

Trust me dude, you got bigger problems

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scrappercb

 

55 minutes ago, JerryLove said:

Or don't let anyone bring a secure case at all. Problem solved. 

It feels a bit like the "my playstyle is valid and yours isn't". 

There's probably a valid middle ground in better map design (put the good stuff behind SCAVS); but I don't really think an immersion breaking restriction in order to try to stop a playstyle is a good choice. 
 

I wonder how much of an issue it really is though. 

If their haul value is low, I don't see the harm. 
If their haul value is high, then 50k in gear won't be an impediment. (especially if that gear can be put in the case, or is stuff that comes back on insurance, etc)

But this has already been addressed with the "found in raid" requirement for flea-market sales (as well as many quests). 
 

Given my exit rate; I suspect you aren't too far from "enjoyment breaking levels of poor"... but basically I can go in armed because I chose equipment that returns via insurance. 

I've got plenty of money, but it would be nice to be able to find graphics cards in raid rather than a trio of dead hatchlings at techlight every game.

Agree better map design and hiding higher tier loot behind scavs would be a definite improvement.  The current scav spawn system where they only appear in any number a few minutes in obviously makes the problem worse.

Also agree the removal of secure containers wouldn't be a bad thing.  Either that or make loot like graphics cards unable to be stored in them a la thermal sights etc.

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Blunt3dge

One way would make the secure container meds only, or a count down timer on high tier loot. Which can only be placed in say a backpack or rig until count down expires then can be place in container.

But none of this would be implemented as people would moan that they can't make money quickly.

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The only ones who would benefit from no SC would be the cheaters. They can see every item in the game. Now you wouldnt even be able to hide the good stuff in the SC.

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JerryLove

I don't want to walk over ground already trodden by me; but I think I'd like to better spell-out my case/position. 

I don't think we should stop ax runners from ax running... just like I don't think we should stop campers from camping, rushers from rushing, or rats from ratting. 

What I *do* think should be done is to look at where there's an issue that something is unbalanced, and adjust accordingly, and as organically as possible. 

  • For spawn rushers, you improve spawn locations to make them harder to get to, easer to get from, have good concealment/cover relative to other spawn locations, or easier to defend. In other words: fix the map.
  • For campers you create fewer choke-points (especially at exit) and make sure that there are ways to get to / through those choke points with reasonable cover. Again: fix the map. 
  • For "grab and die" axe runners; you make sure that your levels best gear cannot be quickly rushed without a fight. Put SCAVS on the primary route in, and spawn those immediately. Put a timer on the door if you must (I'm sure on some levels we could make a justification), or a multi-step process (many exits are built this way; why not loot locations?). This pushes axe runners to tier 2 goods, or slows them down such that a non-axe-runner has a good shot at getting to the loot first... possibly over the body of the axe runner. 

Because as tired as you might be of finding dead naked people; the bottom tier players (and there will always be bottom tier players) are tired of dying every mission and getting nothing. I think this game can, and should, accommodate more than one playstyle. 

Edited by JerryLove
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Evilwayz
16 hours ago, scrappercb said:

Either that or make loot like graphics cards unable to be stored in them a la thermal sights etc.

I actually really love this idea. Remove the high ticket items like bitcoin, tetris, graphics card, ledx etc from being able to be put into the secure container. Frankly I think that is an amazing solution.

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JerryLove
1 hour ago, Evilwayz said:

I actually really love this idea. Remove the high ticket items like bitcoin, tetris, graphics card, ledx etc from being able to be put into the secure container. Frankly I think that is an amazing solution.

What is the actual purpose of a secure container? 

If it's not for storing high-ticket items... what is it supposed to do? 

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Redkneck90
3 hours ago, JerryLove said:

What is the actual purpose of a secure container? 

If it's not for storing high-ticket items... what is it supposed to do? 

Utility to aid you in your raids

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JerryLove
3 hours ago, Redkneck90 said:

Utility to aid you in your raids

That's so vague as to be unhelpful. 

It seems apparent their purpose is to protect some assets from your death... otherwise there are chest rigs and backpacks. 

But if it's not to protect found items, then what? Is it really just to bring in keys and medicine that you don't lose if you die? Seems there are simpler ways for the former (and why do they get bigger?) and the latter seems relatively unimportant. 

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behi09ma
2 hours ago, JerryLove said:

That's so vague as to be unhelpful. 

It seems apparent their purpose is to protect some assets from your death... otherwise there are chest rigs and backpacks. 

But if it's not to protect found items, then what? Is it really just to bring in keys and medicine that you don't lose if you die? Seems there are simpler ways for the former (and why do they get bigger?) and the latter seems relatively unimportant. 

tbh the main reason that Devs cant remove that container is the players like you who can't play the game without the secure container. if they have not sold those EOD editions with gamma container, they have removed it already.

i always use the container as a utility space, the bigger they get, you can bring more utility item in raid, like stims, aqua, more bullets. and im pretty sure there will be some changes to that container soon, and i hope they block the container in raids, so players can not put FIR items in it. 

just imagine after a pvp, you loot bodies with bitcoin, ledx and high value items in their backpack. this will encourage players to pvp more for sure. and people will come to raids with some gear to protect the loot they have in their bag.

like i said the only reason that devs can make big changes or dirrect changes on containers, is the players who got used to the current state of the game and can't adopt to changes, so the result will be crying posts on reddit and forum.

 

 

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-CosmiK-

As Behi09ma stated it, just prevent people to put gpu, ledx and valuables in kappa, and baaam problem solved.

Stick with ammo, meds, keys and dogtags. And the goal will be once again to escape from tarkov, and not to rush as fast as possible the closest POI... Plus you get fancy loot on PMC kills.

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LoginTaken
2 minutes ago, -CosmiK- said:

As Behi09ma stated it, just prevent people to put gpu, ledx and valuables in kappa, and baaam problem solved.

Stick with ammo, meds, keys and dogtags. And the goal will be once again to escape from tarkov, and not to rush as fast as possible the closest POI... Plus you get fancy loot on PMC kills.

Then people will just rush to the next best thing.

This will not solve the "Problem"

 

There is no problem with people trying to rush.

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JerryLove
52 minutes ago, behi09ma said:

tbh the main reason that Devs cant remove that container is the players like you who can't play the game without the secure container. if they have not sold those EOD editions with gamma container, they have removed it already.

You know you are on the low road when you start using phrases like "players like you". 

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i always use the container as a utility space, the bigger they get, you can bring more utility item in raid, like stims, aqua, more bullets. and im pretty sure there will be some changes to that container soon, and i hope they block the container in raids, so players can not put FIR items in it. 

Ohh. I recognize this one.. "my playstyle is valid and yours is not". 

You believe that your use should be allowed... after all: don't want to lose all those stims, aqua, bullets etc to a spawn rush; but someone else's is not. 

Also: the FIR status is removed if you die in raid... so the extent to which you can put FIR items is the same as the extent to which you can put them in your backpack. 

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just imagine after a pvp, you loot bodies with bitcoin, ledx and high value items in their backpack. this will encourage players to pvp more for sure. and people will come to raids with some gear to protect the loot they have in their bag.

Yes. Because the chad playstyle is valid and the rat playstyle is not valid. 

The high-gear playstyle is valid and the low-gear playstyle is invalid. 

I suspect what this would mostly do is encourage exit camping. Right now, the only downside to exit camping is that there are pieces of loot you can only get from actually looting it yourself (bitcoin, ledx, and high value items). Looting yourself is invalid, but exit camping is valid. 

And woe be to the 25% of people who are in the bottom 25%. There's little in the way of an opportunity to slowly crawl to gear as anything but an ax run is going to be nigh-guaranteed loss. 

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like i said the only reason that devs can make big changes or dirrect changes on containers, is the players who got used to the current state of the game and can't adopt to changes, so the result will be crying posts on reddit and forum.

Do you have this in writing from the devs? It feels like projecting. 

It feels like "players like you" have been crying posts on redit and the forum and the result has been the removal of FIR upon death, and the addition of FIR requirements for the flea (ending an entire trading meta game), as well as "run through" status'... but none of that is enough. Your preferences must be catered to completely or else it's devs caving to everyone else. 

When you are used to privilege, equality feels like oppression. 

As I mentioned somewhere recently, I think putting most of the high-quality loot where a quick, non-combat run can't get there (because of timed entry, or at-beginning-of-raid spawned scavs or the like) is a great idea. I don't think we should be getting rid of playstyles (rat, chad, camper, rusher, naked); I think we should just make sure you can't meta one to the expense of the others. 

  • Face shots and leg meta keep chads somewhat limited. You can put on the worlds best gear and still die quickly to a short volley. It's a shame that the speed hit can be offset by strength.
  • Ax runners can be mitigated with as described above
  • Exit campers can be addressed with more viable exits and more careful level design. 
  • Spawn rushers can be dealt with via better protected spawn points. 

And so on and so forth. I like the secure container; but letting it get large seems to be one of those "thinking of a single-player game in a PvP game" issues that EfT has a number of. 

BTW: I got EoD about a week ago because I wanted to support the game and I'm interested in the expansions. The case is a bonus; but I'd already upgraded via missions and purchases. So... you know. To add insult to injury: your premise is wrong. 

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behi09ma
15 minutes ago, LoginTaken said:

Then people will just rush to the next best thing.

This will not solve the "Problem"

 

There is no problem with people trying to rush.

you are right, there is no problem with rushing the high loot are, but right now the problem is, if a player has a good spawn and is fast (which are the naked guys) can get there and secure the loot and die. but with blocking the container, there will be no good or bad spawn, and if you get the one who got the loot, you can own that loot.

btw don't get me wrong, i don't care about the loot. i just don't want to see super mario players on shooter game, cause they kill the immersion atleast for me. and if you have not noticed, the devs don't want hatchet runners also, which they have added the tagged and curse.

 

7 minutes ago, JerryLove said:

You know you are on the low road when you start using phrases like "players like you". 

 

yeah my bad, i wanted to say the logic behind players that think like you :D

8 minutes ago, JerryLove said:

Ohh. I recognize this one.. "my playstyle is valid and yours is not".

i never said that, and i think the devs also should not force players to play the game the way they want, but in a shooter game, which it kinda simulate the gunfight experience, who wants a super mario player, who runs around?! thats my point

11 minutes ago, JerryLove said:

You believe that your use should be allowed... after all: don't want to lose all those stims, aqua, bullets etc to a spawn rush; but someone else's is not. 

Also: the FIR status is removed if you die in raid... so the extent to which you can put FIR items is the same as the extent to which you can put them in your backpack. 

no. i don't give a fck, to those gear and items that i bring inside the raid. if i could, i would remove the secure container, but since they have sold the secure containers with real money to EOD editions, that option in not valid and people can sue them. so by blocking the container, atleast people can use it as utility case. don't be on denial and try to understand me. 

yeah i know how the FIR status works. but it couldnt and cant stop players to do hatchet runs for gpus, ledxes and cards.

18 minutes ago, JerryLove said:

Yes. Because the chad playstyle is valid and the rat playstyle is not valid. 

The high-gear playstyle is valid and the low-gear playstyle is invalid. 

I suspect what this would mostly do is encourage exit camping. Right now, the only downside to exit camping is that there are pieces of loot you can only get from actually looting it yourself (bitcoin, ledx, and high value items). Looting yourself is invalid, but exit camping is valid. 

And woe be to the 25% of people who are in the bottom 25%. There's little in the way of an opportunity to slowly crawl to gear as anything but an ax run is going to be nigh-guaranteed loss. 

i think you are wrong. as i said, i like this game cause you can play the game, the way you want.(there will be always a meta gear for sure but atleast players like me that do not follow those kinds of craps, can survive and have fun in this game) i always try to stay away from meta in this game and go with some gun builds that satisfies me and feels right to me.

yeah i know that i may put myself in a disadvantage situations when i get into players with meta builds, but who cares if i feel good with my own gun and gear, even if i lose the fight. and the one tap headshot is the reason that proves the high gear playstyle will not work in every fight.

the exit camping concept got to old to complain. every change that BSG make, people bring this aspect to forums all the time. anyways, like i said, everyone is allowed to play the game the way they want as long as the game allows it (i don't mean the super mario naked guys :D ). you and me should be ready to get those campers when we try to extract.

but if the game add more extract points, the chance to die to those campers will get less. now the game allows players to camp on shoreline and interchange because of the few extraction points, so people use that.

 

33 minutes ago, JerryLove said:

Do you have this in writing from the devs? It feels like projecting. 

nah if you know Klean, he worked for BSG a few years and now he is close to nikita himself. nikita himself said Klean that the only reason that they can't remove the secure container is this.

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JerryLove
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you are right, there is no problem with rushing the high loot are, but right now the problem is, if a player has a good spawn and is fast (which are the naked guys) can get there and secure the loot and die. but with blocking the container, there will be no good or bad spawn, and if you get the one who got the loot, you can own that loot.

Of course there are good and bad spawns. Good spawns because they can get sniping positions on other spawns. Bad spawns because they are in the middle of a number of other spawns. You don't, or at least shouldn't, solve the problem of spawn locations by doing something other than changing spawn locations. 

This issue can be solved in-universe with map changes; or is can be solved with nanny systems altering the rules to stop people from doing X. Guess which one is more immersive. 

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btw don't get me wrong, i don't care about the loot. i just don't want to see super mario players on shooter game, cause they kill the immersion atleast for me. and if you have not noticed, the devs don't want hatchet runners also, which they have added the tagged and curse.

Then you should be complaining about avatar abilities. Max out your strength and endurance and you get Mario. Add a system with no inertia. 

That said: what about the universe suggests that you wouldn't have people dashing from place to place parkouring to try to be bad targets? It seems like (except for the willingness to get killed), you are advocating against realism because you don't like the way it looks. 

And yea: Tagged and cursed shows an awful lot of why it's wrong-headed to try to tackle this from something other than a map design standpoint. In addition to being "unrealistic" and "breaking immersion"; it's solved with a 6k ruble markarov that I'll get back after every raid. 

I know. Let's stop pistol runners next. Then we'll stop people without armor. Then people with only one piece of armor. You know what: you have to have a helmet, body armor, a visor, two rifles with no fewer than 3 mods each, a pistol, a large (not small) backpack, a chest rig, and a partrich in a pear tree or lightning strikes you every 10 seconds. 

These "well I just need this one thing" quickly snowballs into exactly what I said before "play exactly this way and no other"... because it doesn't work. 

Look at how much has been done on just hatchet runners. 

  • Can't leave too early, lose FIR.
  • Can't die, lose FIR.
  • Can't turn in for missions, or trade of flea: need FIR. 
  • Tagged and Cursed. 

And yet people are still complaining about hatchet runners. 

I don't think I want full-auto rifles with no recoil, dual scopes, and ammo that would pen a tank on avatars who don't make noise, have arms of oak, and put marathon runners to shame...

I mean: if you *really* are dying for a map full of geared up chads fighting it out to the death; stop losing equipment when you die. You'll get your wish when gear fear is gone. But if you don't want to do that (I don't want to do that)... there are consequences. 

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i never said that, and i think the devs also should not force players to play the game the way they want, but in a shooter game, which it kinda simulate the gunfight experience, who wants a super mario player, who runs around?! thats my point

That sure sounds like "play this way and not that".

I wish these players would stop retreating when I'm fighting them. This is a shooter; stand and fight. 
I wish these players would move some instead of standing there and trading shots. This is a shooter. Try to move.
I wish these players would stop coming in lightly geared; you should max everything, this is a shooter. 
I wish these players would stop coming in so heavily geared. Turns it into an armor war. This is a shooter. 

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don't be on denial and try to understand me. 

You lost that consideration when you opened with "players like you". 

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the exit camping concept got to old to complain. every change that BSG make, people bring this aspect to forums all the time. anyways, like i said, everyone is allowed to play the game the way they want as long as the game allows it (i don't mean the super mario naked guys  ). you and me should be ready to get those campers when we try to extract.

I hope you understand how you gave conflicting statements (or at least begged the question). 

You say people should be able to do what the game allows, but the topic is what should the game allow and how. 

You also say people should be able to do what they want, but not if they want to hatchet run. Not if they want to loot and scoot. Not if they want to exit rush....

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you and me should be ready to get those campers when we try to extract.

It's usually a headshot from I don't even know where. I don't really hatchet run; but I do tend to low gear zero-to-hero (partially because of my terrible success rate); which often means I'm coming out with a pistol and unscoped rifle. Someone camped in one of a half-dozen locations on Interchange, likely with a buddy looking out for someone coming abound behind them, guarding the approaches and doing 150m kills... naw. I'm not going to be able to do much. 

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jockmcplop

The simple solution is putting scavs where the igh value loot is. 

Let people hatchet run, but i wish it wasn't such a prevalent meta because as it is now it requires absolutely zero skill and makes the game unbalanced in favour of bypassing actually playing the game.

If hatchet runners need to avoid or kill scavs instead of sprinting to the high value loot and then dying having removed that loot from existence within 30 seconds of the raid starting the game will be more fun for everyone.

 

To be clear,  its not the playstyle itself i have a problem with, its how that playstyle affects the game balance for everybody else, which could be fixed with minor changes to scav spawns so that hatchet runners can't just ruin the game.

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4 hours ago, JerryLove said:

I know. Let's stop pistol runners next. Then we'll stop people without armor. Then people with only one piece of armor.

Right ... if BSG will never do skills brackets, some try to convince them for gear brackets. :P

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2 hours ago, jockmcplop said:

The simple solution is putting scavs where the igh value loot is. 

Wrong in my mind ... put boss and minions as humans not AI to guard hotspots.

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