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To stop hatchet runners, start requiring guns for shooting padlocks and glass cases for loot


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Bane5

I've seen a million roundabout solutions to this problem presented, but the core of the issue needs to be finally addressed. Simply put, if you want people to actually bring guns for a task, they have to be necessary in the first place. Minimalism is human nature.

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The amount of security in the interchange mall is surprisingly light. Yes it is a warzone, but even then you'd expect valuable electronics to be in impact-resistant secure glass cases to avoid theft or for employee and storage rooms to be padlocked against random intruders. Military caches are also surprisingly open and unsecure as well when one of the biggest concerns of any armed force is preventing weapons or munitions from falling into the wrong hands. Some suspension of disbelief is always necessary for video game, but I think it'd be closer from a realism standpoint to have a bunch of military-grade gear and valuables be locked in secure containers than to have them simply be out in the open on the floor in a lot of areas (see labs, reserve, etc).

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Simply put, if you want to rush the best loot spawns, you're going to need a weapon that produces enough kinetic energy to go through the object in question. Take UL 752 Protection Standards for Bullet Resistant Glass Products for example:

  • UL 752 Level 1    9 mm - 3 shots
  • UL 752 Level 2    .357 Magnum - 3 shots
  • UL 752 Level 3     .44 Magnum - 3 shots
  • UL 752 Level 4    .30-06 - 1 shot
  • UL 752 Level 5    7.62 mm - 1 shot
  • UL 752 Level 6    .357 Magnum - underloaded 5 shots
  • UL 752 Level 7    5.56x45 - 5 shots
  • UL 752 Level 8  7.62 mm NATO - 5 shots - (Glass-Clad Polycarbonate materials)
  • UL 752 Level 9    .30-06 M2 AP - 1 shot
  • UL 752 Level 10    .50 BMG - 1 shot - (Aluminum oxynitride materials)

The same concept would apply for padlocks made out of cheaper materials versus up to lets say hardened steel. Marked rooms could have a flimsy rusted padlock on an outer regular door that must be shot off, but inside might be a reinforced metal cage that requires the key for example.

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Shotguns might become the Rat weapon of choice as a result (TOZ-106), but at the very minimum it would ensure that PvP actually happens in a PvP game. Some matches feel rather empty at the moment. Start requiring guns for the best contested loot areas and people will bring them.

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I've seen a million roundabout solutions to this problem presented, but the core of the issue needs to be finally addressed. Simply put, if you want people to actually bring guns for a task, they have

Nice way to attempt to fix an issue that hasn't existed for like 2 years.   Hatchlings are not a thing any more,everyone brings at least a handgun, and no one can get anything worth selling

That sounds like "someone else's game". How is their game a problem for you?  Exit campers are a problem because they shoot me and I die and I lose a bunch of stuff.  I understand the argume

JerryLove

Sure. 

And let's stop exit campers by making things unlootable within 100m of the exit. 

In fact: let's stop campers entirely... if you stay within the same 10m space for more than 90 seconds you get tagged and cursed. 

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kthomasr
Just now, JerryLove said:

Sure. 

And let's stop exit campers by making things unlootable within 100m of the exit. 

In fact: let's stop campers entirely... if you stay within the same 10m space for more than 90 seconds you get tagged and cursed. 

100m of an extract... KIBA and most of the tech stores would be within that range. Maybe even Ultra Medical storage.

Or a change to the key mechanic, making certain keys unable to be put in the gamma, similar to thermals. If the hatchlings want to rush those stores, they would have to risk the key. AND put the loot behind glass that has to be shot.

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xCrossFaith

I see a fatal flaw to this idea despite it sounding really well on paper:   When I started playing for the first time and lost everything so I had to be swapping between scav runs and rely on hatchet or knife runs, I didn't gave the slightest **** about those kind of boxes, I'll just wait until the raid was almost finished and loot the bodies and stashes around... So.. This would solve pretty much nothing 

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Bane5
Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, xCrossFaith said:

I see a fatal flaw to this idea despite it sounding really well on paper:   When I started playing for the first time and lost everything so I had to be swapping between scav runs and rely on hatchet or knife runs, I didn't gave the slightest **** about those kind of boxes, I'll just wait until the raid was almost finished and loot the bodies and stashes around... So.. This would solve pretty much nothing 

Its more about removing the incentives for high-level hatchet runners who want very specific items (i.e. Graphics Cards, quest items, etc) rather than low levels who are just satisfied with anything.

Edited by Bane5
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kthomasr
Just now, xCrossFaith said:

I see a fatal flaw to this idea despite it sounding really well on paper:   When I started playing for the first time and lost everything so I had to be swapping between scav runs and rely on hatchet or knife runs, I didn't gave the slightest **** about those kind of boxes, I'll just wait until the raid was almost finished and loot the bodies and stashes around... So.. This would solve pretty much nothing 

The issue is people hatchling to the high tier loots and risking nothing. Being a hatchling and picking up the scraps is something I fully support. I have even given hatchlings armor and helmets, but never weapons. Go find those on your own so you cant shoot me. XD

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skimer

Nice way to attempt to fix an issue that hasn't existed for like 2 years.

 

Hatchlings are not a thing any more,everyone brings at least a handgun, and no one can get anything worth selling in safe container if they die anyways, if you can't find an specific item it isn't because a magical hatchling spawn inside the loot rooms and took 40 spaces of loot and put it in a 2x2 container, but mostly it is because it is rare loot and it doesn't spawn most of the time.

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Bane5
Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, skimer said:

everyone brings at least a handgun,

This goes beyond hatchets. This is to give an incentive to bring more than just a low cost pistol as well as to affect the risk vs reward structure of the game more fundamentally. Better guns/ammo can actually mean better loot opportunities now.

Edited by Bane5
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JerryLove
10 minutes ago, kthomasr said:

The issue is people hatchling to the high tier loots and risking nothing. 

That sounds like "someone else's game". How is their game a problem for you? 

Exit campers are a problem because they shoot me and I die and I lose a bunch of stuff. 

I understand the argument "hatchet runners are a problem because they deprive the level of loot without real opportunity for other players" or such... heck: I can even understand "they aren't fun to fight" (but don't dare make that argument unless you support matching based on skill); but why worry about someone else's risk? 

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Bane5
47 minutes ago, JerryLove said:

And let's stop exit campers by making things unlootable within 100m of the exit. 

In fact: let's stop campers entirely... if you stay within the same 10m space for more than 90 seconds you get tagged and cursed. 

My 2 cents on the exit camper phenomena is that no special roundabout game mechanics are required. Once cheap remote controlled camera drones and quadcopters make it into the game, a lot of the playstyle's viability will melt away. It is the real-world solution to the "camping problem" after-all.

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skimer
1 minute ago, Bane5 said:

This goes beyond hatchets. This is to give an incentive to bring more than just a low cost pistol as well to affect the risk vs reward structure of the game more fundamentally.

A pistol is a viable weapon, if you can't kill with it, then that is on you.

And a toz is around the same cost so, you just hate handguns I guess.

 

Besides thanks, go many bugs and a few streamers with access to the lead dev it self, we now have a massive issue with meaning less flesh damage, totally Unrealistic and honestly dumb bullet sponginess with no real penalties for getting hit. In real life a guy with a makarov can kill a dude a fort armor, with just a single bullet to the neck, or just hit him several times in the legs as soon as one bullet hit the bone,the other guy is likely out of combat and bleeding to death unless someone else applies a tourniquet and some bandages fast.

The point been that in a combat simulator, gear  should never save your firefights, because it often doesn't in a real fight, and the only reasons we keep having this broken meta where only AP matters and stopping power is a myth are that a few streamers like it as it allows them to have highlights of them easily killing people that didn't have AP rounds, and that there are bugs in the health system that hasn't been fixed yet.

As soon as armor zones are introduced people whom rather spam expensive gear rather than develop skills will cry really hard about it, yet it is the way the game should be, so I just hope they keep correcting course towards the game they sold rather than keeping the game's ballistic system broken to benefit a few that paw in free advertisement.

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JerryLove
11 minutes ago, Bane5 said:

My 2 cents on the exit camper phenomena is that no special roundabout game mechanics are required. Once cheap remote controlled camera drones and quadcopters make it into the game, a lot of the playstyle's viability will melt away. It is the real-world solution to the "camping problem" after-all.

The real world solution is that there aren't pre-defined exits that you must get to on a specific timeframe. 

The real world solution is that snipers must eat, and drink, and sleep. 

The real world solution is all sorts of things.. and, of course, snipers kill people. 

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Bane5
1 hour ago, JerryLove said:

The real world solution is that there aren't pre-defined exits that you must get to on a specific timeframe.

If you're under pressure to escape a military cordon before your ship leaves port, I'd say yes it does happen in the real world. But changing exit timers is already on the horizon with tagged and cursed raiders and map mortar strikes.

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JerryLove
11 minutes ago, Bane5 said:

If you're under pressure to escape a military cordon before your ship leaves port, I'd say yes it does happen in the real world. But changing exit timers is already on the horizon with tagged and cursed raiders and map mortar strikes.

Does your ship lack counter-snipers? 

Does it also lack support from other vessels or aircraft? 

Is there no communication? 

If you've got a sniper trained on the entrance to your ship, your ship has issues long before you do. 

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JerryLove
31 minutes ago, p4nnus said:

REDACTED

And I don't want you to worry either. When they do, they people whining about hatchet runners now will  come crying about pistolers next asking for BSG to save them from pistol tyranny since they won't be able to man up and handle pistoleers either. 

Seriously dude: you have to suspect the sort of response your language is going to get. Or is it on-purpose flame-baiting? 

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skimer
32 minutes ago, p4nnus said:

REDACTED

It it wasn't, it has been ages since I have seen a single loot spawn running hatchling.

There people trying to pull pistol runs and others completing shitty quests, but anyone rushing a mark room now days has lvl 4 armor at least and a modded weapon, at this point it is just bashing ghost and people that don't just want loot but all of the loot in a map, both make little sense.

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Bane5
9 hours ago, skimer said:

And a toz is around the same cost so, you just hate handguns I guess.

I'm sure that the ammunition for 20-guages can be adjusted in price afterwards. While buckshot and low-quality slugs can remain cheap, the cost of higher velocity slugs can be upped significantly so as to require bigger investment than pistols.

9 hours ago, skimer said:

Besides thanks, go many bugs and a few streamers with access to the lead dev it self, we now have a massive issue with meaning less flesh damage, totally Unrealistic and honestly dumb bullet sponginess with no real penalties for getting hit. In real life a guy with a makarov can kill a dude a fort armor, with just a single bullet to the neck, or just hit him several times in the legs as soon as one bullet hit the bone,the other guy is likely out of combat and bleeding to death unless someone else applies a tourniquet and some bandages fast.

The point been that in a combat simulator, gear  should never save your firefights, because it often doesn't in a real fight, and the only reasons we keep having this broken meta where only AP matters and stopping power is a myth are that a few streamers like it as it allows them to have highlights of them easily killing people that didn't have AP rounds, and that there are bugs in the health system that hasn't been fixed yet.

As soon as armor zones are introduced people whom rather spam expensive gear rather than develop skills will cry really hard about it, yet it is the way the game should be, so I just hope they keep correcting course towards the game they sold rather than keeping the game's ballistic system broken to benefit a few that paw in free advertisement.

I agree and even have this thread that you might like about exactly what you just mentioned about bullet sponges.

 

But with this change, nothing says that you can't still succeed with a pistol. If you want to still do low risk pvp with a pistol and ambush people at high value loot areas, and then use their looted guns to smash and grab valuable stores and caches, fine by me. But low risk kit users are going to have to actually back up their playstyle with success in pvp/pve combat for high-grade loot access.

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JerryLove
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But low risk kit users are going to have to actually back up their playstyle with success in pvp/pve combat for high-grade loot access.

Low risk users are generally also the low-success users. 

That Tarkov is brutal is great. 

That Tarkov takes the people who would already be "losing" for lack of skill, blocks them from high functioning equipment, and also makes their characters actually weaker than their opponents (as their skills like strength and endurance are low) , and then make them pay more and get less for what they do have (dealer rep), is downright evil. 

Let's make their lives even harder by also making it so, even if they get to where the loot is, they can't have it. 

They may not be the only low risk users, but they are a large portion. 

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Bane5
Posted (edited)
58 minutes ago, JerryLove said:

Low risk users are generally also the low-success users. 

That Tarkov is brutal is great. 

That Tarkov takes the people who would already be "losing" for lack of skill, blocks them from high functioning equipment, and also makes their characters actually weaker than their opponents (as their skills like strength and endurance are low) , and then make them pay more and get less for what they do have (dealer rep), is downright evil. 

Let's make their lives even harder by also making it so, even if they get to where the loot is, they can't have it. 

They may not be the only low risk users, but they are a large portion. 

I don't buy it. New players can run a cheap VPO-200 series from jaeger or a mosin with its almost 1000m/s velocity. The cost of those weapons systems is literally just a scav run sprinting to extract for a run through and then vendoring all the gear.

Having to bring 50k roubles worth of gear if you want to go to high risk loot areas isn't going to bankrupt people. Managing to go broke on that low of a budget before an account reset cooldown comes back online would be an even more impressive feat.

Edited by Bane5
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Bankoletti
12 hours ago, JerryLove said:

Sure. 

And let's stop exit campers by making things unlootable within 100m of the exit. 

In fact: let's stop campers entirely... if you stay within the same 10m space for more than 90 seconds you get tagged and cursed. 

This could even be solved in a kind of realistic way: Areas around extracts are contaminated by some poisonous or radioactive substance, which only allows you to quickly move and extract without any health impacts. As soon as you stop and/or spend any prolonged time in the contaminated zone, you start experiencing symptoms - very blurry vision (impossible to aim), heavy breathing (loud), severe health degradation and so on.

Edited by Bankoletti
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JerryLove
8 hours ago, Bankoletti said:

This could even be solved in a kind of realistic way: Areas around extracts are contaminated by some poisonous or radioactive substance, which only allows you to quickly move and extract without any health impacts. As soon as you stop and/or spend any prolonged time in the contaminated zone, you start experiencing symptoms - very blurry vision (impossible to aim), heavy breathing (loud), severe health degradation and so on.

The problem is radius. The camper might be 100m away (or more). 

Of course: you could put smoke grenades, or smoke from fires, obscuring vision near the exit stopping sniping into there (can't see). Add more exits, lowering the number of people coming to any one exit. Put up cover. Include scavs near some (adds danger to the person exiting but forces a the camper to act too... unless the camper is a scav). 

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JerryLove
8 hours ago, Bane5 said:

I don't buy it. New players can run a cheap VPO-200 series from jaeger or a mosin with its almost 1000m/s velocity. The cost of those weapons systems is literally just a scav run sprinting to extract for a run through and then vendoring all the gear.

My exit success rate is right near 25% (something that will presumably go down under you plan as right now I go in with more than just an unmodded mosen). If one successful SCAV run gets me one shot at a PMC run, I can do a PMC run every 80 minutes. Hell, that means I'll get one successful PMC run every 6 hours of play. Sounds like a fun game. 

Plus, everyone will start complaining  about the SCAV run-throughs (just like the complain about hatchet runs).

That 25% success funds my running for 3 reasons. 

  • I tend to run very light 
  • I tend to get my stuff back from insurance (so my real costs to run are around 20k or so). 
  • the 1-in-4 successes might net me 100k
  • Some stuff makes it back in my container, that either goes to dealers or gets converted to sellable in the hideout (via crafting). A pair of power cables is pretty lucrative (relatively) even without FIR. 
Edited by JerryLove
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Pupedits
2 hours ago, JerryLove said:

My exit success rate is right near 25% (something that will presumably go down under you plan as right now I go in with more than just an unmodded mosen). If one successful SCAV run gets me one shot at a PMC run, I can do a PMC run every 80 minutes. Hell, that means I'll get one successful PMC run every 6 hours of play. Sounds like a fun game. 

Plus, everyone will start complaining  about the SCAV run-throughs (just like the complain about hatchet runs).

That 25% success funds my running for 3 reasons. 

  • I tend to run very light 
  • I tend to get my stuff back from insurance (so my real costs to run are around 20k or so). 
  • the 1-in-4 successes might net me 100k
  • Some stuff makes it back in my container, that either goes to dealers or gets converted to sellable in the hideout (via crafting). A pair of power cables is pretty lucrative (relatively) even without FIR. 

Sounds like the casual Timmy from next doors.. 25% rly..?

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JerryLove
14 minutes ago, Pupedits said:

Sounds like the casual Timmy from next doors.. 25% rly..?

Oh good. A disparaging reference. That's helpful and constructive. 

And to be precise: 27 percent across 266 raids. 

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Bane5
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, JerryLove said:
  • the 1-in-4 successes might net me 100k

This might be the reason for the difference in our perspectives.

If I wanted to make some money, I'd be running night-time woods as a PMC. Not even using a thermal, I can load up a giant backpack full of packs of sugar, chocolate bars, and bolts from all the various camps and supply caches in the northern side of the map. A typical run might be like 500k minimum profit but often higher, retailing most of the goods to the flea market. Maybe every 1/15 runs might be an unlucky death to a thermal user, but otherwise its pretty risk free as you just head-tap all the scavs at the loot areas from distance with a scope through night vision.

All the funds go immediately into a big gearset to run a quest so I can quickly gain rep for traders.  Success can vary wildly here (some quests are pretty big gauntlets to complete), but I have just under 50% survival rate, and I've never ran as a group--only solo (but I do have to go through the map pretty slowly). So long as you can get water collector hideout level 2 through jaeger rep, the bitcoin farm comes pretty quickly.

Don't really need scav runs, but if I do run them, generally you spawn in groups with other AI scavs. All I have to do is simply head-tap my immediate neighbors and grab their guns, rigs, and backpack; then its off the exit immediately for 100k of merchant vendor loot. Any bags or coats on the way to extract are really just a bonus. Last time I checked, I had a 40% survival rate on scav (assuming the overall tab is correct when in-game as a scav) and that is even with me doing a lot of not-caring and berserk rushing a player I see because I got no initial investment loot risk as a scav.

Edited by Bane5
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