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The law of unintended consequences


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JerryLove

I've noticed a pattern. 

  1. People aren't "engaging" in the raid enough. 
  2. BSG makes a change. 
  3. People engage in the raid less. 

I can't speak for everyone, but I can speak for me, and I know there are others out there like me. 

When all the "found in raid" changes went in to try to stop people from suiciding, it also stopped people from taking risks. If you want me to chad, or at least keep taking new risks after I have a few things, take away the FIR behaviors so that I can "see if I can find something better" or "what the heck, go kill someone" without the same level of risk. 

I know... I know... we want HARDCORE RISK (tm)... but what I really keep hearing on the forums from the hardcore risk crowd is "I hate how everyone is loot rushing", "I wish people would get more into fights", "I'm tired of low geared opponents". 

The problem is: the risk isn't equal. The people wandering around in class 6 armor with laser beams aren't experiencing a high loss rate, so you can't get them to tone down the gear. On the other side, the people coming in with the "I think I can take a scav maybe special" are dying too regularly to dream of putting a half-million rubles in gear on for a  raid they figure they will get spawn rushed in the first 30 seconds. 

But basically every change I see made or advocated appears designed to make the outcome worse. I know that's not the intent, but it's the consequence. You can't keep adding risk and wondering why people get more risk adverse. 

And honestly, it's absolutely the wrong call to not do kill/death ratio matching in raids. It makes raids boring for the great players and unwinnable for the bad ones. 

If you want me running around more geared; improve the insurance rates (hey: maybe bags and kits *shouldn't* be bigger on the inside?), let stuff in my stash stay FIR if I'm killed. Make stash progression not so slow (I'm EoD now, so I start second best, but spent most of my time with an Alpha stash). Make what I have to gain look appealing compared to what I have to lose... for me that's "I've got some definate revenue in the case, this run is a win, let me see if I can get some XP/do some missions/find even better gear. 

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xCrossFaith

The thing I'm most not feeling is the stuff in the secure container loosing the "found in raid" stat, same as not counting if you loot a guy and has a key or something brought in from outside, I don't give a damn where that guy found that item, for me, I found it in a raid, and should count such

I get the "but it's hardcore and realistic, if you die you should loose what you got" that's fair,  but if we keep that way of thinking it would be also fair if the meds meant to stop heavy bleedings also stopped small bleedings, by pure logic, or same as if you break a bone and don't have a splint to be able to improvise one with 2 mags or 2 wooden stocks IN raid, since it seems that term is loved a lot :P 

I assumed I'll just stay at level 2 traders since trying to get the quest items is not really worth it for me, by the time you find and extract said item being lucky you can do 2 or 3 scav runs and make triple the ammount of money and with the flea market even prices are higher, it's still more profitable in the long run for gearing up 

Edited by xCrossFaith
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Bane5
4 hours ago, JerryLove said:

If you want me running around more geared....... Make what I have to gain look appealing compared to what I have to lose... for me that's "I've got some definate revenue in the case, this run is a win, let me see if I can get some XP/do some missions/find even better gear. 

The game shouldn't try to the hold the hands of people who are too afraid to take risks in my opinion. If the average player refuses to put anything at stake, they should just be scraping by with minor scraps.

Just like in the real world, you have to make investments and spend money to make money. If you fall into a low equilibrium trap of low gear, and can't get better gear cause of low gear, its time to reset your account back to lvl 1 to try again (that option should be visible in-game and not on BSG's website).

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JerryLove
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Bane5 said:

The game shouldn't try to the hold the hands of people who are too afraid to take risks in my opinion. If the average player refuses to put anything at stake, they should just be scraping by with minor scraps.

"should" is a meaningless phrase of arbitrary subjectivity and as such in uncompelling. 

You've also shown in this response a surprising misunderstanding of the situation in play. It's so fundamentally in conflict with statements already made that I cannot imagine where to begin to deconstruct it. Perhaps if you go back and re-read this, and some of my other posts you've responded to, looking for how you have presupposed there will be an epiphany. 

Quote

Just like in the real world, you have to make investments and spend money to make money. If you fall into a low equilibrium trap of low gear, and can't get better gear cause of low gear, its time to reset your account back to lvl 1 to try again (that option should be visible in-game and not on BSG's website).

I don't think "the real world" means what you think it means. Your statement is rhetorical and, as with arbitrary statements, uninteresting. 

You aren't discussing or even arguing. You are proselytizing premised on a misunderstanding of the issue being discussed. 

Your posts greatest sin is that it responds to a statement of pragmatisim with rhetoric. It's not just that you haven't supported a case forward, but that you've actually offered none. You are pounding on the lectern without offering anything constructive. 

And when your failure to make a case results in a failure to persuade, you'll blame the audience again and not yourself. 

Edited by JerryLove
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Bane5
13 hours ago, JerryLove said:

I know... I know... we want HARDCORE RISK (tm)... but what I really keep hearing on the forums from the hardcore risk crowd is "I hate how everyone is loot rushing", "I wish people would get more into fights", "I'm tired of low geared opponents". 

On discussions about FIR, hatchlings, and loot changes, the goal isn't to make everyone suddenly be a chad who is risking a giant gearset and seeking glory in gladiatorial combat. Rather its put strong incentives so that targets have the bare minimum capability to shoot back (and with a minimum amount of variety too beyond just only a TOZ or a 9mm pistol occasionally). The risk floor minimum of the game can be raised just slightly without imperiling all new players.

 

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Shurshalla
19 hours ago, JerryLove said:

"I'm tired of low geared opponents"

They really say so? Hm... Guess we read different post then, because what I read mostly, says we are low levels and ubergeared ppl are killing us just by sneeze. :)

15 hours ago, Bane5 said:

time to reset your account back to lvl 1 to try again (that option should be visible in-game and not on BSG's website)

I think this is better as it is. Website is somewhat safer from hacking than regular players PC. I'm just getting too paranoid I guess, after I read what hackers can do with other players PC in RDO. BSOD's and crashes are known, but there are unconfirmed account resets.

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JerryLove
9 hours ago, Bane5 said:

On discussions about FIR, hatchlings, and loot changes, the goal isn't to make everyone suddenly be a chad who is risking a giant gearset and seeking glory in gladiatorial combat. Rather its put strong incentives so that targets have the bare minimum capability to shoot back (and with a minimum amount of variety too beyond just only a TOZ or a 9mm pistol occasionally). The risk floor minimum of the game can be raised just slightly without imperiling all new players.

I don't think it can. Because the gains have been cut repeatedly already, and I've already watched the risk complaing escalate. 

You just illustrated it here where "hatchelling's are a problem" has become "TOZ or 9mm-lings" are a problem. 

I understand what you think you are trying to address; but I don't think it is what you think it. s

3 hours ago, Shurshalla said:

They really say so? Hm... Guess we read different post then, because what I read mostly, says we are low levels and ubergeared ppl are killing us just by sneeze. :)

Yes. For example: Bane5 said in the post above yours says he wants "targets have the bare minimum capability to shoot back"

Except then says the bare minimum (a TOZ or 9mm) really isn't enough either (side note: Of the few player kills I've made, they included a geared Chad killed by my 9x18). 

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GeneralBrus
23 hours ago, JerryLove said:

I know... I know... we want HARDCORE RISK (tm)... but what I really keep hearing on the forums from the hardcore risk crowd is "I hate how everyone is loot rushing", "I wish people would get more into fights", "I'm tired of low geared opponents". 

yea, ppl want harder to get loot and more players with gear at the same time.

The game was so much better 2 years ago ( gameplay balance wise, not talking about technical issues ), because there was actually variety, and ppl were using different loadouts! Right now its all about min maxing because everything has gotten soooo expensive, even if you have the money to spend, the knowledge of not being able to make money with successful pvp destroys the purpose of pvp.

Im wating for the armor plate hitzones, cuz if even bad ammo will be able to kill chads, that could fix a lot of problems the game has right now...

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traumacode

I don't disagree with some of your points, but there's a big problem with your logic OP: the K/D ratio applies to killing players and scavs.  So a player who mainly gets their K/D from scav kills will be paired up with players that almost exclusively PvP (Ie labs and factory runners).  By the K/D matching logic as it stands, these players will be pitted up against each other and not be a very good form of match making.  If they separated the scav K/D and the player K/D or sort by PMCs killed, this woul work IMO.

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JerryLove
47 minutes ago, GeneralBrus said:

yea, ppl want harder to get loot and more players with gear at the same time.

So the idea is that there will be more gear in play if we make gear harder to get and harder to keep? 

You understand how that sounds, right?

Quote

The game was so much better 2 years ago ( gameplay balance wise, not talking about technical issues ), because there was actually variety, and ppl were using different loadouts! Right now its all about min maxing because everything has gotten soooo expensive, even if you have the money to spend, the knowledge of not being able to make money with successful pvp destroys the purpose of pvp.

This statement is confusing on so many levels 

10 players spawn on a map. Why can't the PvP players make money? What's stopping them? One hatchet runner? Two? 

Because if 90% of the player base isn't doing PvP, you have to ask yourself if it's a PvP game. Conversely, if 90% of the player base is doing PvP, the one hatchet runner is a minor blip. There's more than enough gear to go around. The hatchet runner gets, sometimes, whatever spawns at the "most likely high-value spot that's easily rushed" and the PvP player gets the pick of what's left. 

Of course, if you really want a PvP game and not a scavenging survival game with PvP; you get rid of the loot entirely. This will also stop loot rushing... but we aren't going to do that, and we don't want to, because contrary to the statements of anyone... that's not what the design of this game supports. 

Of course: If you aren't good at PvP, you can't make money at PvP either... I notice no one seems concerned for that. It's like "make money via PvP" isn't really the issue because 1) you can still and 2) it only applies to people who don't die. 

Quote

Im wating for the armor plate hitzones, cuz if even bad ammo will be able to kill chads, that could fix a lot of problems the game has right now...

Most likely just changes the meta. 

You can already one shot people in full armor. Either use a mosen to the head or a shotgun tot he legs; and honestly, not that many people seem to have face shields. 

25 minutes ago, traumacode said:

I don't disagree with some of your points, but there's a big problem with your logic OP: the K/D ratio applies to killing players and scavs.  So a player who mainly gets their K/D from scav kills will be paired up with players that almost exclusively PvP (Ie labs and factory runners).  By the K/D matching logic as it stands, these players will be pitted up against each other and not be a very good form of match making.  If they separated the scav K/D and the player K/D or sort by PMCs killed, this woul work IMO.

I do certainly think the k/d ratio should be based on PMC fights, not scav fights. 

Though should someone get put into a field where they cannot perform well, they will get killed a lot and that will move them down-stream. Conversely, should matching put them in too low a grouping, they will quickly advance. 

So while I think PMC ratios are what should be looked at, it's self-correcting either way. 

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Shortstacker
1 hour ago, GeneralBrus said:

yea, ppl want harder to get loot and more players with gear at the same time.

The game was so much better 2 years ago ( gameplay balance wise, not talking about technical issues ), because there was actually variety, and ppl were using different loadouts! Right now its all about min maxing because everything has gotten soooo expensive, even if you have the money to spend, the knowledge of not being able to make money with successful pvp destroys the purpose of pvp.

Im wating for the armor plate hitzones, cuz if even bad ammo will be able to kill chads, that could fix a lot of problems the game has right now...

How was it better two years ago? Everyone had the same amount of money, if not more, and good ammo was even MORE plentiful. 
 

Up until maybe a year ago, I legit ran 995 on all my .556 platforms because the ammo was dirt cheap.

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