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Servicer_Skynet

So. We're back at it again.

Oh no, you might say, what's this idiot doing back here?

W-wait, please listen, don't click away!

I, personally think that Tarkov is going to have to choose its battles. It is a video game, in the end. People will be people, after all, and the difference between real life and game is enough to make actions much stranger.

But, the game can encourage the more serious playstyle. While, of course, accepting room for the funny memes, and perhaps even giving them a spot. I, personally, come from the Hideous Destructor school of realism. It should feel good and be punishing, but also kick out dopamine whenever you win. In that then...

Generally speaking, players should be more fragile. Helmets protect less, health tweaked, etc. In exchange, ammunition is reduced in penetration.  Make those moments where your armour fails a moment of "oh crap, oh crap oh crap" rather than "of course."

The game should put more of a focus on thinking ahead and using your senses over gear-rolling.

It's late at night and I've kind of run out of things to say, but...

TLDR: The game should be punishing. You should fail, fail, fail, but when you win, you get a good kick out of it, and that's what keeps you going. It should FEEL like you're trying to just get by in a world where everything is so very scary. Players should have a lot of control over what they do; Sensibility should not be in the game. Let players attack the problem as they please, let them find what suits them. Stack as much armour as possible and slowly clear buildings to the extract? Sure. No armour, murder enemies in the field with a hatchet, profit? Sure.

 

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Tempten101

I want firefights in the game to feel more like the RAID live-action series BSG has made, and much less like I'm playing something like CoD.

I don't like this full auto low recoil gunplay, I want more emphasis on semi auto to land accurate shots.

Suppressive fire should be a thing.

Painkillers IMO are also a big culprit of why the game feels too forgiving. Everyone just pre-meds and constantly sprints around the map with no worries if they get shot. There needs to be more severe downsides or more conditions required to use painkillers.

Weight needs to matter more. Right now, it just effects regular movement speed, but it doesn't lower the max sprint speed. PMCs running around with huge rucksacks, heavy armor and long cumbersome rifles are just as fast as people wearing almost nothing, it's just ridiculous.

I just want EFT to be a bit more slower paced than whatever it is now.

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Spectator6
9 hours ago, Tempten101 said:

I want firefights in the game to feel more like the RAID live-action series BSG has made, and much less like I'm playing something like CoD.

+10000000000 this

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ACuddlyBadger

I want the game to emphasize how combat, movement, and general survival/ evasion feels. Currently I devote more mental effort to my stash, hideout, and the economy than I do in raid, and its just exhausting when I just want to hunt people that are trying to hunt me. EFT should feel like hunting or playing manhunt against other people, but it doesn't when everybody gets caught up in everything that doesn't matter in raid.  This game has too much poo that interferes with the in raid dynamic, or entirely sacrifices it, and BSG just needs to start amputating things from the game to nail the in raid dynamic down.  

Heres a very hot take; remove faceshields and armor. These are items that add complexity to the game while undermining realism and tactical play. There are no neck hitboxes, we don't have detailed armor hitboxes, and we don't have ballistic threats that require helmets besides bullets. What about fragmentation, spall, blunt trauma, and debris? All armor does is act like a crutch against lower gear opponents. Armor doesn't win firefights irl like it does in EFT. Faceshields won't do anything to stop a buckshot blast to the jaw/neck area. 

Another hot take; remove bitcoin. Passive income has no place in EFT.

Another take; Nerf the value of every absurd value barter item like AESA, GFX, LEDX etc. PMC pathing is too static and its too easy to make money doing farm runs.  

Basically BSG has totally lost sight of what the raids need to look like and they keep worrying about poo that doesn't matter in raids for reasons other than money. They aren't fixing raids at this pace. But they are making EFT like a freemium mobile game complete with base management, lame stat based combat, and timed cooldowns between raids in the form of stash management and food/water!

 

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defurbis

pvp is not going to feel good, and people are going to be bullet sponges regardless of thier armor until servers and bullet registration is fixed

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Servicer_Skynet
On 4/10/2021 at 4:17 AM, Tempten101 said:

I want firefights in the game to feel more like the RAID live-action series BSG has made, and much less like I'm playing something like CoD.

Frick RAID, I want Castle of Thorns! I want to see kinetic actions interspersed with tense tactical movement.

I want the average player to be like Tucker Beers, not streamers running at hypersonic speed.

On 4/10/2021 at 3:24 PM, ACuddlyBadger said:

Heres a very hot take; remove faceshields and armor. These are items that add complexity to the game while undermining realism and tactical play. There are no neck hitboxes, we don't have detailed armor hitboxes, and we don't have ballistic threats that require helmets besides bullets. What about fragmentation, spall, blunt trauma, and debris? All armor does is act like a crutch against lower gear opponents. Armor doesn't win firefights irl like it does in EFT. Faceshields won't do anything to stop a buckshot blast to the jaw/neck area. 

...so simplify the game in order to make it as easy as possible while still making you able to say "it's realistic bro"

...mk

We do have fragmentation, we do have blunt trauma. And yes, blunt trauma is supposed to look like that. You take a bullet and you feel nothing, or at least very little. Faceshields are perfectly fine. You can spritz their head down to literally blind them with their own bodyarmour anyways...

Look, complexity is the name of the game in combat. If you want a good simulation, this is one. People will sell and buy bodyarmour, weapons, ammunition. People will improve themselves and their skills. People will wear armour as they deem necessary because this is a survival operation.

This isn't a military op, you cannot apply their schemas here because there is no medical ward waiting and there is no fire support. You are the army, you must pull logistics, recon, close quarters, suppressing fire, medical...

 

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ACuddlyBadger
29 minutes ago, Servicer_Skynet said:

Faceshields are perfectly fine. You can spritz their head down to literally blind them with their own bodyarmour anyways...

"As realistic as playable" If I have a shotgun loaded with buckshot an altyn and minimalist plate carrier won't stop him from getting his neck opened. I want to kill him first shot!

30 minutes ago, Servicer_Skynet said:

..so simplify the game in order to make it as easy as possible while still making you able to say "it's realistic bro"

...mk

iz as realistic as playable bro

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Isov_ivan
2 часа назад, ACuddlyBadger сказал:

"As realistic as playable" If I have a shotgun loaded with buckshot an altyn and minimalist plate carrier won't stop him from getting his neck opened. I want to kill him first shot!

 

Maybe you shouldn't run around with buckshot-loaded shotgun when adversaries are expected to be heavily armored? Eh? You know, probably there is some reason behind, say, 6B43 having neck protection. Probably BSG should remove armor like this because you want to one-shot anyone with buckshot? 

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Tempten101
6 hours ago, Servicer_Skynet said:

Frick RAID, I want Castle of Thorns! I want to see kinetic actions interspersed with tense tactical movement.

I want the average player to be like Tucker Beers, not streamers running at hypersonic speed.

Yeap. Castle of Thorns is good too. 😆

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Spectator6
6 hours ago, Servicer_Skynet said:

If you want a good simulation, this is one.

Depends on what we're expecting the game to properly simulate.

  • Flight path ballistics?
    • No. Some ammunition is not even close to being realistically portrayed.
  • Kinetic energy ballistics?
    • No. Tumbling, loss of force over distance, etc. These things are not presently modelled.
  • Material penetration?
    • Mostly no. The can-penetrate/cannot-penetrate inconsistencies of the game's assets make this unreliable at best
  • etc etc

While I agree that EFT does a good job at including a myriad of different concepts into the game, I feel it's a stretch to label its accuracy and commitment to realism as worthy of the "simulation" badge.

And who knows? Hopefully some of these areas will be improved as development continues :)

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ACuddlyBadger
9 hours ago, Isov_ivan said:

Maybe you shouldn't run around with buckshot-loaded shotgun when adversaries are expected to be heavily armored? Eh? You know, probably there is some reason behind, say, 6B43 having neck protection. Probably BSG should remove armor like this because you want to one-shot anyone with buckshot? 

I should run around with buckshot if people are wearing minimalist plate carriers. The hit probability alone should make buckshot viable against the slick faceshield helmet meta.  You referring me to the Zabralo is disingenuous, nobody wears 6B43. 

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SOVERElGN
On 4/15/2021 at 2:43 PM, Spectator6 said:

Hopefully some of these areas will be improved as development continues

Really hope so. IMHO, with all variety of armor grades and types of ammo implemented, it's essential to make all of them vital choice for desired purposes. The essential purpose each ammo type - option to defend yourself against any human wearing any body armor grade. Like it works IRL. Defend doesn't necesserely mean kill or even do some damage - first of all it means do not let another player to kill you. IRL you can easily do that with any ammo within its effective range. How? Just law of physics - each round applies a significant amount of kinetic pulse to a human body which creates a stopping power effect. That power usually makes you to take cover asap. No one IRL operator would stand under fire and aim for his foe instead of getting covered. As for now a stopping power isn't really implemented in this game yet. It's a major design flaw which makes gunfights feel arcade and not immersive at all.

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Spectator6
22 minutes ago, SOVERElGN said:

As for now a stopping power isn't really implemented in this game yet. It's a major design flaw which makes gunfights feel arcade and not immersive at all.

Right. 

And that may be a difficult nut to crack from a gameplay standpoint.

My understanding of "stopping power" is that it usually has more to do with the central nervous system than raw physical force.

For example, from the studies I've read on certain .45 rounds, the "stopping power" comes from a literal shock impulse that radiates through the body internally, creating a momentary "stunned" sensation (I'm talking specifically from the round entering the body and expanding, not one being absorbed by armor) where certain aspects of the nervous system temporarily "shut down". And that is what contributes to a "stopping" result. Not that the THWACK of the bullet offsets the body's movement from a physics/force standpoint, but that it can more or less "short circuit" the body for a moment.

This also seems to be corroborated in the footage I've seen from police taking rounds into their soft armor. While the 9mm round does not impart enough raw physical force to knock a person down, there can be a certain psychological/physiological factor that comes into play. I'd imagine this is not quite as strong as the internal "shock" of the .45 entering the body, but can still be effective in eliciting a certain reaction from a person.

(NSFW, officer takes round to vest, swearing, etc)

In situations like the above, it's also possible this "fall down" reaction is further compounded by the officer's subconscious desire to get the heck out of of dodge and quickly remove himself from the line of fire. To "let" himself fall back with the shot and remove himself out of the way, as kind of a two-for-one.

Now, that said, would something like this play out well in a game? Where players are "detached" from the sensations and are relegated to icons and various HUD readouts? "Wait, why the heck is my guy not moving!?!? Why is his weapon lowered!?!?"

If the player could "be there" IRL, he'd have the associated sensations that help the scene make sense (ie "YOUCH! Dang, I just got shot! MAN that stings!")

But without that? It all may be very confusing to the player. (ie "Oh, wait, in the upper left of the screen, there's this red blinking thing, that means my guy is stunned or whatever. Guess I need to wait a bit for that to go away before I can resume my attack..")

Would something like that be immersive or annoying? It seems to me that all comes down to how seamlessly they can integrate it. If the average player can readily "make sense" of what's happening to his character, his mind would be allowed to "stay in" the fiction and his imagination would fill in the gaps. But if it becomes too much of a cerebral thing (ie reading HUD readouts, discerning icons, etc), that may pull the player out of the fiction and ruin the experience a bit.

Does that make sense? Is that kind of what you're getting at too @Sovereign?

Edited by Spectator6
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SOVERElGN

@Spectator6 whoa, lots of words :D and you got a point for sure.

Usually a stopping power effect is simulated with a simple camera sway (so called flinch). Back in alpha stage it was much more noticeable than now - what a rough and immersive gameplay it was...

I'd implement the stopping power in both ways - central nervous system and raw physical force. But the second at least would fine for a start considering how "quick" BSG are at developing gameplay mechanics. Since players can't be "there" and feel gunshots, the game should simulate what character feels with: forced body parts and body position animated adjustment, brief visual effects, head camera movement - in regards of physical impact. Some random character's mumbling and swearing would also be very immersive. In short - the game should apply all available actor status and visual technics that makes a player understand a fact - your char got a shot, dude.

Of course, gunshot should cause not only physical impact (which should cause respective body position adjustment up to fall down), but some kind of neural pain effect even if a bullet got stopped entirely by an armor. We don't have neural system implemented in game, but basic body parts and health points pools. So I think neural pain affect may be partly simulated with: brief visual pain affect, short term respective immobility penalties (stamina pool and regain loss, body part action speed decrease) and maybe blunt HP loss.

Certainly no need to say that in case an armor got penetrated your char obviously feels not only the effects described above but also loose a significant amount of HP at least, besides all other possible injuries like bloodless and fractures.

In short I suggest any gunshot should make player understand what his char feels at the moment of getting shot and shortly after that. That understanding should make a player to learn a simple truth -  your char being under fire is ineffective at all. All that understanding may only come to a player from available mechanics and visual & sound effects. 

Want to survive gunfights - first of always get cover when got shot. That a simple rule of thumb all player should follow despite on armor and gear they use at any char level. Not following that rule should lead to inevitable death eventually, like iRL.

Another rule of thumb for gunfight - always be first and hit enemy before he does.

If we want to play a realistic brutal survival game with real world weapons, armor and ammo - all these things should be handled like IRL and should work like IRL. That's an essential for gunfights be interesting and rough, and essential if we want all game content has practical case of use.

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