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Some thoughts on the current combat mechanics, from a new user...


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DocLongDong
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First off, I want to say I love this damn game. I am a new player (lvl 5) and have been playing casually for a few weeks. I have spent a lot of time as scav and offline trying to learn extracts and locations (mostly reserve and shoreline) and only occasionally do a fully geared PMC raid. With that said, I'd like to get other more experienced players thoughts on the following game mechanics, which are in my opinion annoying at best and experience breaking at worst:

1. Run and gun/fast peeking. There is no momentum while sprinting, so you can sprint into a building, ADS extremely fast with a high ergo gun and whirl around in a different direction without being hit. In other words the movement doesn't feel realistic or immersive while sprinting, and gives a big advantage to peekers and run and gun vs. players holding an angle. I guess what I'm saying is that imho movement while sprinting should be *much* smoother and a bit slower.

2. Sound is verrry janky? Near walls or corners of buildings, the ambient sound changes from the "outdoor" to "indoor" and back again without actually going indoor or outdoor. Also, gunshot sounds are not as directional as I would have hoped, people shooting in the open have sounds that seem to come from the wrong direction. If you actually hear gunshots in real life (outdoors), it is actually quite easy to determine the direction it is coming from if it's close.

3. Blacked out arms don't affect aim very much. If you got shot in the arm 3 times, your arm would probably be totally unusable. You probably wouldn't be able to hold your gun very well at all. Yet in tarkov I can still hit a guy at 200m just fine having two totally blacked arms. 

4. Bot scav behavior is totally unbelievable. 95% of the time they're totally unaware of what's going on, running out in the open with no cover, won't lean around corners, and have potato reflexes. The other 5% of the time (and 100% of the time for scav bosses/guards like Gluhar) they're complete head-eyes x-ray drop-shotting aimbots. Where's the in between? Surely BSG could program them to be more like actual player scavs.

5. Armor can totally protect against rifle rounds. If you get hit with a SINGLE 556 wearing class 4 armor, in real life you'd probably fall on your ass and crack a few ribs and be seriously hurt, even if the bullet didn't penetrate the vest. In tarkov, you can mag dump a guy with decent armor in the chest and he'll remain standing and be basically no worse for wear.

6. Movement effects of being shot: If you're being shot in the chest in EFT, you can pretty much keep shooting on target. I think the game would be a bit more tactical if movement/aim was more severely changed when you were being shot, even if bullets don't penetrate your armor.

7. No center of mass kill areas. Being shot in the heart is different than being shot in the shoulder, no? EFT doesn't seem to have a difference?

Again, I'm a fairly new player so take all of this with a grain of salt. I know BSG has to balance rEaLiSm vs making the game fun, but some of the above mechanics are very immersion breaking for me personally. I love the game but would like to see the gameplay be a bit more tactical and careful than it currently is.

Edited by DocLongDong
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Evilwayz
2 hours ago, DocLongDong said:

First off, I want to say I love this damn game. I am a new player (lvl 5) and have been playing casually for a few weeks. I have spent a lot of time as scav and offline trying to learn extracts and locations (mostly reserve and shoreline) and only occasionally do a fully geared PMC raid. With that said, I'd like to get other more experienced players thoughts on the following game mechanics, which are in my opinion annoying at best and experience breaking at worst:

1. Run and gun/fast peeking. There is no momentum while sprinting, so you can sprint into a building, ADS extremely fast with a high ergo gun and whirl around in a different direction without being hit. In other words the movement doesn't feel realistic or immersive while sprinting, and gives a big advantage to peekers and run and gun vs. players holding an angle. I guess what I'm saying is that imho movement while sprinting should be *much* smoother and a bit slower.

2. Sound is verrry janky? Near walls or corners of buildings, the ambient sound changes from the "outdoor" to "indoor" and back again without actually going indoor or outdoor. Also, gunshot sounds are not as directional as I would have hoped, people shooting in the open have sounds that seem to come from the wrong direction. If you actually hear gunshots in real life (outdoors), it is actually quite easy to determine the direction it is coming from if it's close.

3. Blacked out arms don't affect aim very much. If you got shot in the arm 3 times, your arm would probably be totally unusable. You probably wouldn't be able to hold your gun very well at all. Yet in tarkov I can still hit a guy at 200m just fine having two totally blacked arms. 

4. Bot scav behavior is totally unbelievable. 95% of the time they're totally unaware of what's going on, running out in the open with no cover, won't lean around corners, and have potato reflexes. The other 5% of the time (and 100% of the time for scav bosses/guards like Gluhar) they're complete head-eyes x-ray drop-shotting aimbots. Where's the in between? Surely BSG could program them to be more like actual player scavs.

5. Armor can totally protect against rifle rounds. If you get hit with a SINGLE 556 wearing class 4 armor, in real life you'd probably fall on your ass and crack a few ribs and be seriously hurt, even if the bullet didn't penetrate the vest. In tarkov, you can mag dump a guy with decent armor in the chest and he'll remain standing and be basically no worse for wear.

6. Movement effects of being shot: If you're being shot in the chest in EFT, you can pretty much keep shooting on target. I think the game would be a bit more tactical if movement/aim was more severely changed when you were being shot, even if bullets don't penetrate your armor.

7. No center of mass kill areas. Being shot in the heart is different than being shot in the shoulder, no? EFT doesn't seem to have a difference?

Again, I'm a fairly new player so take all of this with a grain of salt. I know BSG has to balance rEaLiSm vs making the game fun, but some of the above mechanics are very immersion breaking for me personally. I love the game but would like to see the gameplay be a bit more tactical and careful than it currently is.

1. I actually disagree with this. The game should feel immersive and you can in real life sprint, stop and get on target very quickly when you are well trained. The unrealistic part is starts to become very difficult after you stop being able to control your breathing. This means after sprinting for long periods of time it should start to effect your aim speed. 

2. To an extent you can hear in real life. Although sounds till can bounce off of walls and echo which in real life can sometime abstract the sound.

3. You would be surprised what people can do when their adrenaline is flowing through them. There have been many stories of soldiers getting shot 15 times and continuing to fight. To be completely fair there have also been plenty of soldiers who have been shot in the arm once and immediately stopped. 

Lets be honest here. In real life you cant perform surgery on your arm and make it brand new in 20 seconds. Without certain unrealistic mechanics the game would be pretty poo that every single time you get in a fight you have to go extract...or crawl to extract if they shot out your legs.

4. I have zero problem with scavs. There has never been AI that have operated well. Scavs are meant to be less trained soldiers. Raiders are your trained elite. 

5. You could get a cracked rib. You could just get bruising. It all depends on how you got hit and where you got hit. 

Again this goes to poo game play. Imagine every single time someone shot you in the chest you got basically stunned and knocked on your ass. Basically whoever gets the first shot wins. 

6. Once again stun lock when hit leads to poo gameplay. 

7. Shoulder would be arm. Chest would be thorax. There is a difference in game.

 

I think this comes down to you trying to make a game like real life. At the end of the day you have to understand if they went full realistic it would be a poo game play experience. Rats would win all fights. First shot would always win. Whoever sees the other first wins. You would never be able to get into more than one fight if you get hit. You would waste countless hours crawling to extract likely to only be shot by a extract camper.

I would say play the game and learn it first. Play other games and realize what makes them fun. Stop trying to make the game over realistic to the point it is annoying and boring as duck. 

In real life there is also not random guns, ammo, rolex watches, graphics cards, and moonshine etc lying around for us to go and loot. Should we remove that too because it is not realistic. Maybe we should only have one life because in real life you only get one life. If you die your stash gets wiped. 

Sorry but i am tired as duck reading things like this.

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Spectator6

Hi @DocLongDong!

Welcome to the forums :)

You have a LOT of good point there, I agree with pretty much all of them!

Blunt damage in armor can be a tricky topic. I find it's hard to get good footage that's not heavily skewed toward promoting a certain brand or plate design and seeing as I have no direct experience with this out in the field, etc., I remain fairly agnostic toward either side of the debate.

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RACWAR
14 hours ago, DocLongDong said:

1. Run and gun/fast peeking. There is no momentum while sprinting, so you can sprint into a building, ADS extremely fast with a high ergo gun and whirl around in a different direction without being hit. In other words the movement doesn't feel realistic or immersive while sprinting, and gives a big advantage to peekers and run and gun vs. players holding an angle. I guess what I'm saying is that imho movement while sprinting should be *much* smoother and a bit slower.

I'm impressed you picked up on this while still being so new to the game. The run and gun gameplay has been discussed for a long time on here, and most of the more long time players want it gone, and want a more realistic or authentic experience regarding this matter, so yes, definitely an issue.

14 hours ago, DocLongDong said:

2. Sound is verrry janky? Near walls or corners of buildings, the ambient sound changes from the "outdoor" to "indoor" and back again without actually going indoor or outdoor. Also, gunshot sounds are not as directional as I would have hoped, people shooting in the open have sounds that seem to come from the wrong direction. If you actually hear gunshots in real life (outdoors), it is actually quite easy to determine the direction it is coming from if it's close.

Sounds is something that they have been working on for a long time as well, they are trying to implement a more accurate sound system, but so far the advances in that direction have been fairly minimal.

14 hours ago, DocLongDong said:

3. Blacked out arms don't affect aim very much. If you got shot in the arm 3 times, your arm would probably be totally unusable. You probably wouldn't be able to hold your gun very well at all. Yet in tarkov I can still hit a guy at 200m just fine having two totally blacked arms. 

Agreed. The lack of consequences and depth to a more realistic medial/injury system has also been discussed on here for a long time. Sadly, the devs have recently stated that they don't know if there is really a need for a more in-depth medical system, which personally, I just find mind boggling.

14 hours ago, DocLongDong said:

5. Armor can totally protect against rifle rounds. If you get hit with a SINGLE 556 wearing class 4 armor, in real life you'd probably fall on your ass and crack a few ribs and be seriously hurt, even if the bullet didn't penetrate the vest. In tarkov, you can mag dump a guy with decent armor in the chest and he'll remain standing and be basically no worse for wear.

6. Movement effects of being shot: If you're being shot in the chest in EFT, you can pretty much keep shooting on target. I think the game would be a bit more tactical if movement/aim was more severely changed when you were being shot, even if bullets don't penetrate your armor.

7. No center of mass kill areas. Being shot in the heart is different than being shot in the shoulder, no? EFT doesn't seem to have a difference?

All of this basically revolves around the same general topic, so I'll answer it combined. The effects of being shot is yet again a thing where many want to see more consequences as well. Personally, I have made a variety of suggestion myself regarding the addition of more fatal hitboxes such as heart and lungs, certain arteries, etc. Or the implementation of de-scoping for example, or dropping your gun on the ground after getting hit in the arm that holds most of the weight of the gun.

But I have no idea if the devs consider such things or if it's a lost cause.

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Vortex_Bear

All good points. Some of these topics have been discussed quite a lot, especially @Spectator6's posts go into great detail of how to make weapon handling more realistic and reduce the run and gun laserbeam full auto peaker's advantage meta that is currently present in this game, and we need an overhaul of aiming, recoil and movement systems in general. We currently don't know what BSG has planned, most of the streams discuss the same things over and over again to the point where I'm asking myself why they are still doing it, which is the obvious stuff such as cheaters, hatchlings, de-synch, new weapons, new maps, etc... or badly thought through ideas that streamers come up on the spot, while some of the best suggestions remain unanswered. I continue to hope that BSG does the right thing eventually by doing things 100% correctly and not stopping with their systems being only half way realistic. Surely they can find a way of finding the sweet spot so that the game is more tactical but just as much if not even more fun to play.

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DocLongDong
Posted (edited)
21 hours ago, Evilwayz said:

1. I actually disagree with this. The game should feel immersive and you can in real life sprint, stop and get on target very quickly when you are well trained. The unrealistic part is starts to become very difficult after you stop being able to control your breathing. This means after sprinting for long periods of time it should start to effect your aim speed. 

2. To an extent you can hear in real life. Although sounds till can bounce off of walls and echo which in real life can sometime abstract the sound.

3. You would be surprised what people can do when their adrenaline is flowing through them. There have been many stories of soldiers getting shot 15 times and continuing to fight. To be completely fair there have also been plenty of soldiers who have been shot in the arm once and immediately stopped. 

Lets be honest here. In real life you cant perform surgery on your arm and make it brand new in 20 seconds. Without certain unrealistic mechanics the game would be pretty poo that every single time you get in a fight you have to go extract...or crawl to extract if they shot out your legs.

4. I have zero problem with scavs. There has never been AI that have operated well. Scavs are meant to be less trained soldiers. Raiders are your trained elite. 

5. You could get a cracked rib. You could just get bruising. It all depends on how you got hit and where you got hit. 

Again this goes to poo game play. Imagine every single time someone shot you in the chest you got basically stunned and knocked on your ass. Basically whoever gets the first shot wins. 

6. Once again stun lock when hit leads to poo gameplay. 

7. Shoulder would be arm. Chest would be thorax. There is a difference in game.

 

I think this comes down to you trying to make a game like real life. At the end of the day you have to understand if they went full realistic it would be a poo game play experience. Rats would win all fights. First shot would always win. Whoever sees the other first wins. You would never be able to get into more than one fight if you get hit. You would waste countless hours crawling to extract likely to only be shot by a extract camper.

I would say play the game and learn it first. Play other games and realize what makes them fun. Stop trying to make the game over realistic to the point it is annoying and boring as duck. 

In real life there is also not random guns, ammo, rolex watches, graphics cards, and moonshine etc lying around for us to go and loot. Should we remove that too because it is not realistic. Maybe we should only have one life because in real life you only get one life. If you die your stash gets wiped. 

Sorry but i am tired as duck reading things like this.

 Hey thanks for the response, but I disagree. Let me offer some rebuttals.

In general, I totally get that the game has to be fun rather than just realistic. I'm not saying to make it 100% realistic. I'm just saying making it coherent (I personally think, maybe others disagree) would make it more fun. I love the game because the consequences are so high and decisions matter. EFT seems to be a game based on pseudo-realism (which is fine, and great!) but what I'm saying is just to make the combat mechanics logically coherent. 

 

Quote

1. actually disagree with this. The game should feel immersive and you can in real life sprint, stop and get on target very quickly when you are well trained. The unrealistic part is starts to become very difficult after you stop being able to control your breathing. This means after sprinting for long periods of time it should start to effect your aim speed. 

That's a fair point. However, you can still whirl around and sprint pretty much without momentum. I.e., desyncd running up and down stairs full sprint to charge a room, people are suprisingly difficult to hit. It's kind of weird to me.

Quote

2. To an extent you can hear in real life. Although sounds till can bounce off of walls and echo which in real life can sometime abstract the sound.

See my original point:

 Sound is verrry janky? Near walls or corners of buildings, the ambient sound changes from the "outdoor" to "indoor" and back again without actually going indoor or outdoor. Also, gunshot sounds are not as directional as I would have hoped, people shooting in the open have sounds that seem to come from the wrong direction. If you actually hear gunshots in real life (outdoors), it is actually quite easy to determine the direction it is coming from if it's close.

 

Quote

3. You would be surprised what people can do when their adrenaline is flowing through them. There have been many stories of soldiers getting shot 15 times and continuing to fight. To be completely fair there have also been plenty of soldiers who have been shot in the arm once and immediately stopped. 

I totally agree with this. The problem is that is takes away from the pseudo-realism of the game when I can still aim almost perfectly with blacked out limbs. I don't think anyone would argue that pretty good aim after getting both arms fractured with 7.62x54 is weird; it's just an immersion breaking decision on BSG's part. 

Quote

Lets be honest here. In real life you cant perform surgery on your arm and make it brand new in 20 seconds. Without certain unrealistic mechanics the game would be pretty poo that every single time you get in a fight you have to go extract...or crawl to extract if they shot out your legs.

I think this kind of high-stakes gunplay actually makes EFT fun in comparison with something like Call of Duty. The consequences for getting shot should be high. The reward for having arms-protecting armor that stops your aim from going to poo if you get shot in the arm should be high. Realism aside, I'm talking about fun. Things like this is why positioning and tactics are so fun in EFT (to me, at least).

Quote

4. I have zero problem with scavs. There has never been AI that have operated well. Scavs are meant to be less trained soldiers. Raiders are your trained elite. 

Fair enough. I'm probably not experienced enough with the game to comment more on this.

Quote

 

5. You could get a cracked rib. You could just get bruising. It all depends on how you got hit and where you got hit. 

Again this goes to poo game play. Imagine every single time someone shot you in the chest you got basically stunned and knocked on your ass. Basically whoever gets the first shot wins. 

 

I actually think that would be really fun :D

It wouldn't have to be all the time though. I mean BSG could have something like a chance of getting knocked down or stunned (similar to how they have chances for heavy/light bleeding) based on the kind of ammo. 9mm? Not so much. .308? A lot more. Imho it seems like it would be a really fun game mechanic.

Quote

6. Once again stun lock when hit leads to poo gameplay.

Does it? When people get shot in the head wearing an altyn they seemingly get stunned or thrown off aim and it makes the gameplay more interesting and immersive. I guess I'd just like to see a version of the same thing for thorax shots. Maybe I am mistaken here though.

 

Quote

7. Shoulder would be arm. Chest would be thorax. There is a difference in game.

Ok I did not know this!

Edited by DocLongDong
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XELENSI

Definitely agree with majority of your points, and one very important thing to me which I see a lot in this game is adapting to the consequences of your actions. Do you constantly die when standing in the open? Find safer routes. Do you constantly miss your shots? Invest in a more ergonomic and precise weapon, or work on improving your aim. This is what draws me to the game. <3

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Evilwayz
14 minutes ago, DocLongDong said:

 Hey thanks for the response, but I disagree. Let me offer some rebuttals.

In general, I totally get that the game has to be fun rather than just realistic. I'm not saying to make it 100% realistic. I'm just saying making it coherent (I personally think, maybe others disagree) would make it more fun. I love the game because the consequences are so high and decisions matter. EFT seems to be a game based on pseudo-realism (which is fine, and great!) but what I'm saying is just to make the combat mechanics logically coherent. 

 

That's a fair point. However, you can still whirl around and sprint pretty much without momentum. I.e., desyncd running up and down stairs full sprint to charge a room, people are suprisingly difficult to hit. It's kind of weird to me.

See my original point:

 Sound is verrry janky? Near walls or corners of buildings, the ambient sound changes from the "outdoor" to "indoor" and back again without actually going indoor or outdoor. Also, gunshot sounds are not as directional as I would have hoped, people shooting in the open have sounds that seem to come from the wrong direction. If you actually hear gunshots in real life (outdoors), it is actually quite easy to determine the direction it is coming from if it's close.

 

I totally agree with this. The problem is that is takes away from the pseudo-realism of the game when I can still aim almost perfectly with blacked out limbs. I don't think anyone would argue that pretty good aim after getting both arms fractured with 7.62x54 is weird; it's just an immersion breaking decision on BSG's part. 

I think this kind of high-stakes gunplay actually makes EFT fun in comparison with something like Call of Duty. The consequences for getting shot should be high. The reward for having arms-protecting armor that stops your aim from going to poo if you get shot in the arm should be high. Realism aside, I'm talking about fun. Things like this is why positioning and tactics are so fun in EFT (to me, at least).

Fair enough. I'm probably not experienced enough with the game to comment more on this.

I actually think that would be really fun :D

It wouldn't have to be all the time though. I mean BSG could have something like a chance of getting knocked down or stunned (similar to how they have chances for heavy/light bleeding) based on the kind of ammo. 9mm? Not so much. .308? A lot more. Imho it seems like it would be a really fun game mechanic.

Does it? When people get shot in the head wearing an altyn they seemingly get stunned or thrown off aim and it makes the gameplay more interesting and immersive. I guess I'd just like to see a version of the same thing for thorax shots. Maybe I am mistaken here though.

 

Ok I did not know this!

At the end of the day this all comes down to this being a game. You will never be successful making a game that is exactly like real life. 

You think stun lock sounds fun, but that is because of your inexperience. A majority of people in this game start out freaked out from PvP. Most PvP they lose so they end up using tactics to increase their change of winning. This ends up being ratting, extract camping, etc...

As everyone they eventually get better and start learning the maps. They know where people spawn. They know where people run to. They know where people camp. One of the best and most successful Russian players in Tarkov once said "Tarkov is all about map knowledge". Once you learn the map you can start moving fluid through it.

The more you camp, rat, and extract camp the longer it takes you to learn PvP and learn the map. 

Trust me you will get to a point where sitting around for hours on end gets boring and you want to start moving around. You want to actually get some loot to make money. You start enjoying the game more because instead of some random kit you got off someone you ratted you are making 10 million in the matter of a few hours. 

When you get to this point you start to appreciate really technical fights. Both players repositioning constantly trying to out position the other. Using grenades to move the other player and get better positioning.Timing your attacks. Back and forth and complete satisfaction when you win or appreciation when you lose. 

Then you have the rest of the fights that are just shooting a player sitting in a corner, which most of the times I win because they have wasted their time ratting instead of learning how to PvP in Tarkov....or on the rare occasion I get caught and realize I either deserved my death for not checking a corner or learn a new corner/area I had never been killed from before. 

Add in stun lock and it completely takes away all of that fun. Then it is just who shoot who first. Might as well just make all ammo take just one bullet to kill. It is the same thing.

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Spectator6
5 minutes ago, Evilwayz said:

At the end of the day this all comes down to this being a game. You will never be successful making a game that is exactly like real life. 

You think stun lock sounds fun, but that is because of your inexperience. A majority of people in this game start out freaked out from PvP. Most PvP they lose so they end up using tactics to increase their change of winning. This ends up being ratting, extract camping, etc...

As everyone they eventually get better and start learning the maps. They know where people spawn. They know where people run to. They know where people camp. One of the best and most successful Russian players in Tarkov once said "Tarkov is all about map knowledge". Once you learn the map you can start moving fluid through it.

The more you camp, rat, and extract camp the longer it takes you to learn PvP and learn the map. 

Trust me you will get to a point where sitting around for hours on end gets boring and you want to start moving around. You want to actually get some loot to make money. You start enjoying the game more because instead of some random kit you got off someone you ratted you are making 10 million in the matter of a few hours. 

When you get to this point you start to appreciate really technical fights. Both players repositioning constantly trying to out position the other. Using grenades to move the other player and get better positioning.Timing your attacks. Back and forth and complete satisfaction when you win or appreciation when you lose. 

Then you have the rest of the fights that are just shooting a player sitting in a corner, which most of the times I win because they have wasted their time ratting instead of learning how to PvP in Tarkov....or on the rare occasion I get caught and realize I either deserved my death for not checking a corner or learn a new corner/area I had never been killed from before. 

Add in stun lock and it completely takes away all of that fun. Then it is just who shoot who first. Might as well just make all ammo take just one bullet to kill. It is the same thing.

What about for those players who don't view all-out-run-and-gun-ish PvP as being EFT's proper end-game like "state of being" (for lack of a better word) for players?

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Evilwayz
19 minutes ago, Spectator6 said:

What about for those players who don't view all-out-run-and-gun-ish PvP as being EFT's proper end-game like "state of being" (for lack of a better word) for players?

I am confused what you mean. You can choose to play however you want. It is more risky to play as a run and gun. You have to be very fast to react. Higher risk as you run into significantly more players, but also more reward as the more you kill the more gear you get. 

All games should reward high risk if successful.

It is high risk to run straight to dorms on customs, but marked room can make you millions in one swing of the door. 

It is high risk to run labs, but the loot is 2nd to none. There are a multitude of examples of this.

Ratting/Camping or Extract camping is LOW RISK. This should not have a high reward to it. Ratting already gives you a massive advantage. You hear them first. You see them first. You are ready for them first. Now you want to give them additional advantage via a stun lock. Makes zero sense. 

All games have high risk high reward systems in place. In World of Warcraft one of the most successful games in history Mythics and Mythic Raids are the most punishing and difficult. They also come with the best rewards in the game. All successful games have this in place.

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Spectator6
Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, Evilwayz said:

I am confused what you mean. You can choose to play however you want. It is more risky to play as a run and gun. You have to be very fast to react. Higher risk as you run into significantly more players, but also more reward as the more you kill the more gear you get. 

All games should reward high risk if successful.

It is high risk to run straight to dorms on customs, but marked room can make you millions in one swing of the door. 

It is high risk to run labs, but the loot is 2nd to none. There are a multitude of examples of this.

Ratting/Camping or Extract camping is LOW RISK. This should not have a high reward to it. Ratting already gives you a massive advantage. You hear them first. You see them first. You are ready for them first. Now you want to give them additional advantage via a stun lock. Makes zero sense. 

All games have high risk high reward systems in place. In World of Warcraft one of the most successful games in history Mythics and Mythic Raids are the most punishing and difficult. They also come with the best rewards in the game. All successful games have this in place.

Sure, I understand what you're saying there. And you're right, risk and reward varies quite a bit once the player starts pushing into more heavily trafficked areas!

The main thing I took away from your response with @DocLongDongis that you feel any sort of "stun lock" mechanic would largely "get in the way" of the more pure PvP experience.

And I'm just wondering... What if for some players that would actually be the point? What if they'd like to slow things down a bit and turn PvP away from its current run-and-gun, spin-on-a-dime, react-like-a-machine bent and toward a pacing that may be a at least somewhat more authentic?

 

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Evilwayz
1 hour ago, Spectator6 said:

Sure, I understand what you're saying there. And you're right, risk and reward varies quite a bit once the player starts pushing into more heavily trafficked areas!

The main thing I took away from your response with @DocLongDongis that you feel any sort of "stun lock" mechanic would largely "get in the way" of the more pure PvP experience.

And I'm just wondering... What if for some players that would actually be the point? What if they'd like to slow things down a bit and turn PvP away from its current run-and-gun, spin-on-a-dime, react-like-a-machine bent and toward a pacing that may be a at least somewhat more authentic?

 

A stun lock would not slow things down. It would drastically speed things up. 

If you wanted to slow things down you would decrease damage per bullet. 

Let me give you an example. Imagine you are moving through the map. Whether you are slowly moving or quickly moving. Doesn't matter...someone sees you first. All of a sudden out of nowhere you get shot. First shot knocks you on your ass. Stun locked you cant do anything and just are stuck there while you get hit a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and black screen. Great game mechanics. You couldn't react. Doesn't even matter what armor you were wearing. 

Frankly might as well just wear paca armor at that point. What is the point of level 5 or level 6 armor if you can just get stun locked and die. The whole point of the armor is to give you a chance to react. You in one fell swoop destroyed the entire game concept of armor.

Does that sound like fun to you?

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Spectator6
7 minutes ago, Evilwayz said:

A stun lock would not slow things down. It would drastically speed things up. 

If you wanted to slow things down you would decrease damage per bullet. 

Let me give you an example. Imagine you are moving through the map. Whether you are slowly moving or quickly moving. Doesn't matter...someone sees you first. All of a sudden out of nowhere you get shot. First shot knocks you on your ass. Stun locked you cant do anything and just are stuck there while you get hit a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and black screen. Great game mechanics. You couldn't react. Doesn't even matter what armor you were wearing. 

Frankly might as well just wear paca armor at that point. What is the point of level 5 or level 6 armor if you can just get stun locked and die. The whole point of the armor is to give you a chance to react. You in one fell swoop destroyed the entire game concept of armor.

Does that sound like fun to you?

Sorry, my bad @Evilwayz! I should have clarified, I didn't mean to hone in on stun lock specifically, but on the overall picture. And by "slow things down", I wasn't talking about time-to-kill, but about player behaviors. 

Maybe I'm misinterpreting @DocLongDong's comments, but the thought seems to be that by INCREASING the overall risk for getting into a gunfight, might that result in players being a bit more cautious? Maybe not quite so keen to rush headlong into PvP fights? If players are more strongly "penalized" for getting hit first, how might that influence the pacing and flow of players?

And again, I don't mean to argue, just thinking out loud a bit :)

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Evilwayz
1 minute ago, Spectator6 said:

Sorry, my bad @Evilwayz! I should have clarified, I didn't mean to hone in on stun lock specifically, but on the overall picture. And by "slow things down", I wasn't talking about time-to-kill, but about player behaviors. 

Maybe I'm misinterpreting @DocLongDong's comments, but the thought seems to be that by INCREASING the overall risk for getting into a gunfight, might that result in players being a bit more cautious? Maybe not quite so keen to rush headlong into PvP fights? If players are more strongly "penalized" for getting hit first, how might that influence the pacing and flow of players?

And again, I don't mean to argue, just thinking out loud a bit :)

The more you punish or penalize getting hit first the more you reward a low risk playstyle. Sitting in corners, camping, extract camping. 

There is a reason why a majority of single player games actively design the game to punish camping. PUBG/Fortnite Blue Circle of Death. Counterstrike has a terrorist bomb mechanic. Call of duty has game modes that reward points by moving towards that objective...do not move towards the objective you might get kills, but lose the game. 

Top game developers do this because it prevents their game from dying. Allow me to explain.

All FPS games are comprised of aggressive players that push objectives, and move around the map. There are also always regardless of game design players that will find a way to camp. Like in PUBG you will often find a team that gets weapons and immediately moves to the very center of the circle to camp hoping that the circle will not make them move eventually. 

In Tarkov there is zero game mechanics outside of getting to loot areas first that punish camping or force them to move. They need players to move past them in order to have successful raids. When you keep rewarding those players for camping like giving them an additional advantage as you suggest then what happens is the aggressive players either start camping themselves or quit playing out of annoyance of just getting wacked by a rat every game. Then slowly, but surely you lose the players moving around the map.

Eventually there is just the campers. Sitting and waiting. Camping. Yet game after game they see nobody. The game starts to feel like a dead zone. Eventually they get bored of sitting around for hours with zero rewards. Zero players. They then also quit. 

There is a reason why top game developers actively design game mechanics to move campers. This is the reason.

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Evilwayz

Meant why the majority of FPS games actively design the game to punish camping.

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Spectator6
1 hour ago, Evilwayz said:

The more you punish or penalize getting hit first the more you reward a low risk playstyle. Sitting in corners, camping, extract camping. 

There is a reason why a majority of single player games actively design the game to punish camping. PUBG/Fortnite Blue Circle of Death. Counterstrike has a terrorist bomb mechanic. Call of duty has game modes that reward points by moving towards that objective...do not move towards the objective you might get kills, but lose the game. 

Top game developers do this because it prevents their game from dying. Allow me to explain.

All FPS games are comprised of aggressive players that push objectives, and move around the map. There are also always regardless of game design players that will find a way to camp. Like in PUBG you will often find a team that gets weapons and immediately moves to the very center of the circle to camp hoping that the circle will not make them move eventually. 

In Tarkov there is zero game mechanics outside of getting to loot areas first that punish camping or force them to move. They need players to move past them in order to have successful raids. When you keep rewarding those players for camping like giving them an additional advantage as you suggest then what happens is the aggressive players either start camping themselves or quit playing out of annoyance of just getting wacked by a rat every game. Then slowly, but surely you lose the players moving around the map.

Eventually there is just the campers. Sitting and waiting. Camping. Yet game after game they see nobody. The game starts to feel like a dead zone. Eventually they get bored of sitting around for hours with zero rewards. Zero players. They then also quit. 

There is a reason why top game developers actively design game mechanics to move campers. This is the reason.

So in your mind it's either all or nothing?

Isn't it possible it exists more on a spectrum? Do players have to be able to absorb 80%+ damage without immediate repercussions?  I can't tell you how many times my squad and I have landed six+ shots on someone only to have him keep charging and bum rushing us without a care, and that always rubs us the wrong way. Especially since EFT claims it is a simulator, something altogether different from CS or PUBG, etc.

I suspect they could nudge things more toward realism and it would still allow for interesting play styles that are both engaging and plausible.

As for mechanics to get players moving, it may not be right to say that EFT has none.  What about extractions? What about loot hot spots? What about provisions?   

Sure, it may not be as explicit, but in my mind it doesn't have to be. There's room for something more nuanced and emergent.

 

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chrisragnar
On 5/13/2021 at 9:29 PM, DocLongDong said:

First off, I want to say I love this damn game. I am a new player (lvl 5) and have been playing casually for a few weeks. I have spent a lot of time as scav and offline trying to learn extracts and locations (mostly reserve and shoreline) and only occasionally do a fully geared PMC raid. With that said, I'd like to get other more experienced players thoughts on the following game mechanics, which are in my opinion annoying at best and experience breaking at worst:

1. Run and gun/fast peeking. There is no momentum while sprinting, so you can sprint into a building, ADS extremely fast with a high ergo gun and whirl around in a different direction without being hit. In other words the movement doesn't feel realistic or immersive while sprinting, and gives a big advantage to peekers and run and gun vs. players holding an angle. I guess what I'm saying is that imho movement while sprinting should be *much* smoother and a bit slower.

2. Sound is verrry janky? Near walls or corners of buildings, the ambient sound changes from the "outdoor" to "indoor" and back again without actually going indoor or outdoor. Also, gunshot sounds are not as directional as I would have hoped, people shooting in the open have sounds that seem to come from the wrong direction. If you actually hear gunshots in real life (outdoors), it is actually quite easy to determine the direction it is coming from if it's close.

3. Blacked out arms don't affect aim very much. If you got shot in the arm 3 times, your arm would probably be totally unusable. You probably wouldn't be able to hold your gun very well at all. Yet in tarkov I can still hit a guy at 200m just fine having two totally blacked arms. 

4. Bot scav behavior is totally unbelievable. 95% of the time they're totally unaware of what's going on, running out in the open with no cover, won't lean around corners, and have potato reflexes. The other 5% of the time (and 100% of the time for scav bosses/guards like Gluhar) they're complete head-eyes x-ray drop-shotting aimbots. Where's the in between? Surely BSG could program them to be more like actual player scavs.

5. Armor can totally protect against rifle rounds. If you get hit with a SINGLE 556 wearing class 4 armor, in real life you'd probably fall on your ass and crack a few ribs and be seriously hurt, even if the bullet didn't penetrate the vest. In tarkov, you can mag dump a guy with decent armor in the chest and he'll remain standing and be basically no worse for wear.

6. Movement effects of being shot: If you're being shot in the chest in EFT, you can pretty much keep shooting on target. I think the game would be a bit more tactical if movement/aim was more severely changed when you were being shot, even if bullets don't penetrate your armor.

7. No center of mass kill areas. Being shot in the heart is different than being shot in the shoulder, no? EFT doesn't seem to have a difference?

Again, I'm a fairly new player so take all of this with a grain of salt. I know BSG has to balance rEaLiSm vs making the game fun, but some of the above mechanics are very immersion breaking for me personally. I love the game but would like to see the gameplay be a bit more tactical and careful than it currently is.

If you are at a disadvantage holding an angle, then it's a bad angle. A good angle is when the person pushing can't see you. Like when you align two covers so you only see a few pixels slit between. Then when you see movement in the slit you push out and thus have the peekers advantage. 

Agree that black out limbs should have more effect. But please no more aimpunch. I do t know what game everyone els is playing. But when I'm ads and get hit the gun goes flying everywhere atm already.

How armor works needs to make sens from the gameplay perspective. Just forget how irl works. It's a game.

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decamillis
17 hours ago, chrisragnar said:

How armor works needs to make sens from the gameplay perspective. Just forget how irl works. It's a game.

They should probably stop marketing this game as a Hardcore fps simulator on the front page if that's the case.

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Evilwayz
On 5/14/2021 at 6:33 PM, Spectator6 said:

So in your mind it's either all or nothing?

Isn't it possible it exists more on a spectrum? Do players have to be able to absorb 80%+ damage without immediate repercussions?  I can't tell you how many times my squad and I have landed six+ shots on someone only to have him keep charging and bum rushing us without a care, and that always rubs us the wrong way. Especially since EFT claims it is a simulator, something altogether different from CS or PUBG, etc.

I suspect they could nudge things more toward realism and it would still allow for interesting play styles that are both engaging and plausible.

As for mechanics to get players moving, it may not be right to say that EFT has none.  What about extractions? What about loot hot spots? What about provisions?   

Sure, it may not be as explicit, but in my mind it doesn't have to be. There's room for something more nuanced and emergent.

 

If you are hitting someone six times and they are still alive then you are clearly using the wrong ammunition. 

Skimp on armor and your gun before you skimp on ammunition. 

This is not a game problem. This is a you problem.

 

As for mechanics. Players camp the extractions. Why care about loot hot spots when you can just let other players do the looting for you. Provisions...? Is it that difficult to bring some food and water with you? These are not exactly things that counter camping. If anything they make camping more profitable. 

You know where players are going so you can camp hot loot areas. You know where players will extract so camp the extracts. These do not stop camping they promote it.

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Spectator6
6 minutes ago, Evilwayz said:

If you are hitting someone six times and they are still alive then you are clearly using the wrong ammunition. 

Skimp on armor and your gun before you skimp on ammunition. 

This is not a game problem. This is a you problem.

Ha! 

Wow, we must be playing different games from each other...

7.62 BP, all upper chest and head, total damage of 122. Even by the game's own math he should have been dead (85 + 35 = 120)...

BUT NOPE!

His little **immediate** spin-on-a-dime mag-dump puts me down.

These types of situations happen far too often. 

So please, take your "this is a you problem" stuff elsewhere, something is clearly not right with the game's underlying damage and/or health systems. 

And don't just take my word for it, there's PLENTY of evidence showing a lot of "head-scratching" moments.

 

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Evilwayz
46 minutes ago, Spectator6 said:

Ha! 

Wow, we must be playing different games from each other...

7.62 BP, all upper chest and head, total damage of 122. Even by the game's own math he should have been dead (85 + 35 = 120)...

BUT NOPE!

His little **immediate** spin-on-a-dime mag-dump puts me down.

These types of situations happen far too often. 

So please, take your "this is a you problem" stuff elsewhere, something is clearly not right with the game's underlying damage and/or health systems. 

And don't just take my word for it, there's PLENTY of evidence showing a lot of "head-scratching" moments.

 

I can promise you this is due to desync and not the game mechanics. You say you hit his chest and head, but the game is registering you hitting other areas. 

This has happened to me plenty of times, but more often than not it works as intended. I cant tell you how many people I have one tapped with M61 to the head or two tapped to the chest. 

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DocLongDong
On 5/17/2021 at 11:17 AM, Spectator6 said:

Ha! 

Wow, we must be playing different games from each other...

7.62 BP, all upper chest and head, total damage of 122. Even by the game's own math he should have been dead (85 + 35 = 120)...

BUT NOPE!

His little **immediate** spin-on-a-dime mag-dump puts me down.

These types of situations happen far too often. 

So please, take your "this is a you problem" stuff elsewhere, something is clearly not right with the game's underlying damage and/or health systems. 

And don't jeust take my word for it, there's PLENTY of evidence showing a lot of "head-scratching" moments.

Totally agree. Even as a very new player I can tell that desync + the current game mechanics make what would otherwise be a truly special game incredibly frustrating. Rushing advantage is tremendous, especially when you have set up an ambush around a corner or in a hallway. I feel like I have been on both sides of this quite a bit.

Me, a scav, rushing a room with a PMC camping in it, waiting for me, I have terrible ammo in a ppsh: somehow put 4 shots on his face and I take one shot in the leg. I know it was total horseshit, he knows it was total horseshit, no one's happy.

Me carefully setting up an angle, creeping at the end of a hallway, laying down with a class 5 helmet and class 5 armor, got m80 loaded in the chamber, player scav rushes around corner, he's desync'd as duck and doesn't know I'm here, I hit him once in thorax, he whirls around on a dime and headeye's me. I know it was total horseshit, he knows it was total horseshit.

It's just dumb and most everyone knows it. The number of "tarkov in X seconds" videos out there are evidence that I am not the only one who see the whirly-bird movement + desync + combat mechanics as needing fundamental improvement.

Also @EvilwayzI respect your opinion as a more experienced EFT player than me but what you're saying very strongly smells of "I am good at the game as it is so don't change it". 

 

 

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Evilwayz
On 5/19/2021 at 12:48 AM, DocLongDong said:

Also @EvilwayzI respect your opinion as a more experienced EFT player than me but what you're saying very strongly smells of "I am good at the game as it is so don't change it". 

I have zero issues with them changing things, but change things in the correct direction. Players have to realize ultra realism does not work for a VIDEO GAME. There are always going to be unrealistic things that make a game fun. 

Also if you are going to fix things...fix the correct things. As an example the one guy complained that it takes a guy takes 6 shots and runs off. For one I think we can all agree he probably sprayed and hit the guy in the arms legs and stomach. I gave him the benefit of the doubt and said it could be due to desync which does happen. 

The problem to solve here is Desync. Zero issues with them fixing that. The armor and ammo mechanics are perfectly fine. Want to one tap someone go bring in a 338 with AP rounds. Want to 2 shot people bring in any gun running M61 (also one taps to the head). Want to 3 shot people bring in 995, AP SX, or Igolnik. Want to 4-6 shot people bring in a 7n31 or ss190. Keep in mind as you keep going guns start shooting faster. So a 950 rpm vector or 1100 rpm MP9 will match the kill rate pretty closely of a 2 shot burst of a M1A or SA58.

So sure fix things, but fix the right things.

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high1
On 5/15/2021 at 1:46 AM, Evilwayz said:

The more you punish or penalize getting hit first the more you reward a low risk playstyle. Sitting in corners, camping, extract camping. 

There is a reason why a majority of single player games actively design the game to punish camping. PUBG/Fortnite Blue Circle of Death. Counterstrike has a terrorist bomb mechanic. Call of duty has game modes that reward points by moving towards that objective...do not move towards the objective you might get kills, but lose the game. 

Top game developers do this because it prevents their game from dying. Allow me to explain.

All FPS games are comprised of aggressive players that push objectives, and move around the map. There are also always regardless of game design players that will find a way to camp. Like in PUBG you will often find a team that gets weapons and immediately moves to the very center of the circle to camp hoping that the circle will not make them move eventually. 

In Tarkov there is zero game mechanics outside of getting to loot areas first that punish camping or force them to move. They need players to move past them in order to have successful raids. When you keep rewarding those players for camping like giving them an additional advantage as you suggest then what happens is the aggressive players either start camping themselves or quit playing out of annoyance of just getting wacked by a rat every game. Then slowly, but surely you lose the players moving around the map.

Eventually there is just the campers. Sitting and waiting. Camping. Yet game after game they see nobody. The game starts to feel like a dead zone. Eventually they get bored of sitting around for hours with zero rewards. Zero players. They then also quit. 

There is a reason why top game developers actively design game mechanics to move campers. This is the reason.

Man ur on point here, i couldnt agree more.

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