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Weapon recoil changes (Really thought idea, at least worth reading)


GrumpyFox
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Hello there

Been playing Tarkov for 2 years now with around 3k+ hours on multiple accounts (hardcore + normal one).

The recoil subject seems to very touchy one in this game, usually it boils down to:

  1. Rage between people.
  2. Calling game unrealistic
  3. "Crying" about Meta weapons.
  4. Laser weapons go BRRRRRRRR
  5. Hold LMB to win

So far we had big amount of changes but some weapons are still better than the other ones and it's fine.

We can come to conclusion that EFT has some issues that could be worked out but needs proper adjustments rather than just raging and throwing dirt left right and center.

Lately I've seen ideas of changing how silencer adapters work and idea to negate adapter bonus once silencer is attached.

It's good idea, proper one I'd say.

Imo it doesnt fix overall issue that a lot of people tend to not exactly notice. At least I think it's an issue.

 

Have you ever wondered about 1 tiny little thing:

  • Spread of bullets and it's connection to recoil reduction system.

Have you asked yourself:

  • How come my gun turns into laser beam with almost to zero spread when I fire full auto when it's fully modded? Why does it feel like it gets more accurate the longer I fire?

 

Well I and many of you probably did. I was thinking if it's possible to try to push idea for devs to change it, make shooting more skill based rather than investing 250k into M4 or any other weapon to get lowest recoil and hold LMB on someones body. (one of points on the list above)

 

Well I thought of idea but not sure if it would be welcomed so thus my "suggestion idea", maybe someone will see some light in it or find it a good solution to create more skill based gunfights rather than one we usualy seee (BRRRRRRRR dead).

So first of all:

  • Right now if we attach laser to our weapon we can shoot without ADS as accurate as with it. What if we attached penalties to be less accurate regardless of having laser on or off
  • If we wouldn't ADS, let's say that over 7 m(could be whatever distance devs feel like is proper) which is usually effective point aiming distance we would apply penalties to accuracy, same when firing on the move without ADS
  • Currently if you ADS in, your movement speed drops by around 65%, without ADS you move around 65% faster, X% accuracy penalty would be clearly logical
  • This would push people to ADS more and try to prevent hip/point firing unless very close distance

Recoil reduction turning weapons bullet spread so small that it's basically laser beam

  • Devs tried to balance things out here and basically what we have seen was huge changes on weapon part stats but overall that was short term and just ruled out few guns as others were almost untouched and we're back to square 1 resulting everyone using just different builds or changing weapon completely.

I do have in mind 2 part solution here which might sound weird but sound logical (at least to me, please correct if it isn't)

Two part change would be like this:

Divide recoil reduction into 2 parts:

  • Visual Recoil and Gun Recoil.

Now please read carefully what I'm trying to propose here before jumping the gun on me.

Currently every gun has almost random spray pattern which is I think impossible to recreate by player and game adjust players recoil by implementation of Recoil Control skill.

I'm not against that skill. At max level it improved recoil control by 20% which is fine. (It doesn't really need tweaking, just faster leveling. Muscle memory is a thing overall and 20% sound reasonable)

So back to main topic and suggestions:

Visual Recoil

This would work the same as it is working now meaning that barely modded gun would fly all over the screen as it usually does giving you hard time tracking the target.

It would be still affected as it is by all mods we have in game. Meaning no changes. Better mods, better gun stability when shooting. (meaning there is incentive to mod your gun to make your shooting easier)

Gun Recoil

Now this is tricky. I've been thinking and "I" think it should be completely untouched by any in-game weapon part mod or should be reduced by minimal gains when using silencer/suppressor/compensators/muzzle brakers. (Flash hiders doesn't count, they're made for entirely different purposes as which are: Not blinding you in low light firing situations but it's not most important thing here).

  • By changing this, we would get rid of laser beam weaponry and I think completely change mentality of players in choosing first tactic when in gunfight: Hold LMB until target dies.
  • This would also involve coming up with new tactics in gameplay and make game more skill based as it originally was supposed to be.
  • The longer you fire in full auto the less accurate gun would as it should be.

So how this would work you ask and why would I mod my gun?

  • Well if you've been reading till this point and do you a lot of PvP you understand the importance of gun stability when firing and how much it helps when your gun isn't all over the screen. Meaning you would still want to mod your gun to lowest visual recoil as possible.
  • This would also delete unreal overall weapon recoil reduction % which affects bullet spread.

Let's use MK47 as example as it is newest addition to the game:

  • Unmodded gun from trader has overall recoil set at 346 combined (vertical + horizontal)
  • Modded gun has overall recoil set at: 148/152 combined (vert + horizontal depending if you use RK1 or Shift grip)

As you can see that's around 45% overall recoil reduction and more than 55% vertical recoil reduction which is purely insane.

I also understand this would change game almost 180* in terms of firing difficulty.

  • With this change devs could focus more on just base recoil of the gun if it needed nerfing/balancing instead taking for example 350 mods into consideration and overlooking 50 in the progress.
  • With this change devs could re-balance some weapon parts ergonomics or players could just build their guns in different manner allowing them to be more ergonomical without having to sacrifice one or another. (Ergonomics could play bigger role than just ADS speed / duration mechanic)

 

With upcoming Intertia I can't really see how current gun recoil system will serve it's purpose other than having even easier time killing people with low bullet spread weaponry.

Not sure how this post will be taken in but I'm guessing it won't be taken positively.

Overall I hope we get better gun recoil system than we have now kinda turn this game into.... Ugh.. I hate that but... It turns it pretty much into COD gunplay.....

What do you guys think? Post it down below maybe we can come up with different and better idea to forward it towards devs or maybe devs will comment themselves

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HELLO,

I think with the inertia , the game is going to change , speaking about recoil, about spamming A and D, and other things,

i am sure about that because Nikita said he hates meta gun, and i hate also the new gun MK-47 with 35 recoil :(

Lets hope

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Sounds like Battlefield 2 -3 -4, rust in 2015, recoil system. There's a reason it has been replaced with actual recoil. It doesn't work and it's insulting to play with, you can't put in more practice to get better at it.

Edited by Starioshka
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2 hours ago, Starioshka said:

Sounds like Battlefield 2 -3 -4, rust in 2015, recoil system. There's a reason it has been replaced with actual recoil. It doesn't work and it's insulting to play with, you can't put in more practice to get better at it.

Ofcourse you can.

The main difference is that you can't spray and control your recoil like you can do for example in CS/CSS/CSGO.

You know that Tarkov allways pushes for realism as far as possible, lately as far as playable.

Right now with current system you can only get better at one thing: Getting your reticle to your target faster and more accurately and that's where getting better at shooting basically stops.

Everything else after clicking left mouse button is decided by auto-recoil adjustments + weapon mods.

 

While I do understand that to some this idea sounds as bad as weight system sounded like but after numerous amount of tweaks it founds it's place in the game and actually fits perfectly (sometimes you feel like it still could use some tweaking).

I think the same should be done with shooting in EFT.

Full auto would still be viable tactic but not the primary one, if you met someone at distance of 10 meters I'm pretty sure full auto would still kill him pretty fast.

Thing is, single firing/bursts firing should be priority and your main way of firing a gun.

You allways can put practice into being a better shooter, point is how far skill ceiling go and how much you wanna invest your time to get better. Tarkov is game where you sink hundreds hours just to get basics done (maps, learning quests, modding, traders, economy). Shooting in Tarkov never was anything hard unless weapons were unmodded.

 

But back to what my idea would eliminate as to addition to mentioned above:

How many videos have we all seen where people spray full auto for ranges like 150-200 meters and kill guy in seconds because gun is overly accurate?

Right now It IS easier to hold LMB and more optimal due to first 3-5 round kick to shoot at someone because leading target gets easier the longer you fire. (depends on firing position, prone you actually almost don't see any spread of a gun).

If my idea would eliminate these kinds of plays or shooting 5 guys in CQC while sprinting 90% times (run position to firing position, repeat) and would require you to actually ADS (60-65% movement penalty) then we would get way more tactical approach to fights.

What would gain from it:

1. Importance of cover would rise rather than who push first wins.

2. Medium/Long range distances Armor you wear would just gain from it so you would start shooting at targets in vital areas rather than LMB until it stops moving.

3. Ammo usage would be way lower thus you wouldn't ever need to bring 300 bullets with you if you decide to PvP (5x 60 rounders)

4. This would mean you don't want waste it unless you want to supress your target in CQC or when playing in group.

 

Imo as I said I don't expect this idea to go thruu but everyone knows current recoil system we have doesn't really fit Tarkov and feels odd compared to every other mechanic in game.

Game is really fun till people start hitting lv20 so they just go for best modded guns.

What if my idea somewhat impacted the way currently guns work and mods would play crucial role but in different manner than they do now? (Slap as many as possible to obtain lowest recoil with highest ergo possible atm)

What if supressors wouldn't give as much sound reduction when paired with supersonic bullets as they do now?

What if actually mods didn't play as big role as they do now and it's more about skill based combat? (Involving more skill at higher levels of available mods)

 

I remember that recoil system been mentioned a lot of times, be it by Landmark, Pestily, Slushpuppy and many others just to try to get some changes done.

 

We could also do it easy way and give us promised : 0.0 head bobbing instead of 0.2 we have now

 

I hope things change until full release and intertia will impact such run and gun gameplay

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@GrumpyFoxI guess there are good intentions behind this, but this would literally be going backwards. This system of cone recoil worked for ancient games that could not implement current recoil trends in video games due to engine limitations. It is simply not good. Sorry.

 

You can easily confirm that nobody would like this by looking at Rust around 2015. It had this exact cone recoil system and the developer got so many messages and complaints that he had to drop development of everything else and swap cone recoil for real recoil. 

The intention behind it also was to limit players ability to just wreck everybody if they're good enough and force single shoots.

Edited by Starioshka
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Posted (edited)
46 minutes ago, Starioshka said:

@GrumpyFoxI guess there are good intentions behind this, but this would literally be going backwards. This system of cone recoil worked for ancient games that could not implement current recoil trends in video games due to engine limitations. It is simply not good. Sorry.

You can easily confirm that nobody would like this by looking at Rust around 2015. It had this exact cone recoil system and the developer got so many messages and complaints that he had to drop development of everything else and swap cone recoil for real recoil.

I do understand that there might and probably are some intentions behind it.

You are also talking about real recoil implemented to Rust, initially it was RNG cone then they turned it into spray pattern which is exact same system as CSGO has which would be bad for Tarkov. Also Rust is bad idea of comparision to EFT and ARMA would be more accurate one.

Rust is bad idea of comparision to anything by looking at it's development progress and how devs listened WAY too hard to community and turned their game 180* to what it was promised.

I don't see how my idea would be going backwards if anything it's moving forward

The things you are saying are actually in game.

This game have cone but not in the way you think it does. Every gun pointing forward shoots in cone thats just how it works, guns don't shoot in direction of shooter, they shoot forward.

Tarkov has realistic spread without any mods which gets reduced by weapon mods so hard that it affect bullet physics and turns it into the cone you are so against.

Let me show how it works so it's easier to visualize:

obraz.png.4d4341f0b587a23c803574415b131fdd.png

This is visualization and below I will post how it actually looks in game without third one as it's impossible to create. (First one can be used as third one).

As you can see first one seems pretty realistic, in my taste a little bit too tight for full auto still.

Now for the second one, this is how recoil looks on 90-95% guns after modding it fully, the lower caliber the tighter spread. So if anything, we are going backwards here in my eyes and delete skill involvment

Now third one would be how it would look if you did full auto with same mods, it could be tighter slightly bit more and be less acurrate the longer the range is.

Below I'll post how current recoil translates to game when firing from standing high position on certain ranges.

obraz.thumb.png.27636d110ce2d1443e41a6b40a0fb735.png

Now this is MK47 fully modded and fully unmodded with 2 ways of firing from around 10-15 meters. Which is still too accurate for my taste

As you can see both fully modded weapons regardless of controlling manually or not are extremely accurate while I understand that it's around 15 meter ranger. The disparision between unmodded and modded is way too big and doesn't look like 55% recoil reduction but more likely 70-90% (There was also no visible kick with modded one).

Down below I'll post how it works on longer ranges with same gun.

Controlled fully modded weapon. I can tell you from the firing distance posted at the end my gun missed maybe 2 bullets over the wall

obraz.png.f4adfdc0db64dacf4de1721c7f4ac68f.png

Below is fully controlled unmodded weapon. You can see how many shots actually missed of 30 rounds as most of bullets did hit the hill behind that wall

obraz.thumb.png.7b7235dc22687ce801e7694a87f568ba.png

 

You can see how big of a difference it is and how accurate gun still is in full auto with mods and how inaccurate it is with fully unmodded weapon.

This is the distance I was shooting from.

obraz.png.6e9626152de0084b7a3276fb099ec32e.png

 

Now if we take consideration weapons that have lower recoil than my MK47 which had 46 +/- vertical and 108 horizontal (which is 154 total) like M4's that get to subpar 30 vertical and 60-70 horizontal (which can be at lowest around 100 or so). Ofcourse the lower recoil you are able to hit the more accurate you are on long distance, caliber is also accounted for every weapon recoil but in the end with every weapon we can get to same results as posted on images above.

While as I said my problem isn't with firing between distances 1-10/15 meters it starts at distances like shown above.

This is all from my end of showing how full auto works in this game and how broken it is and hopefully we will see some changes in future regardless if my idea is taken in consideration or not.

Edited by GrumpyFox
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@GrumpyFox"Backwards" as in it's an old system which rose strictly from the limitations of the time. Is it bad? Certainly.

Now this is all nice and all, but if mods get reduced recoil characteristics what would be the point of using them at all if they do next to nothing? So far Tarkov has been strictly about distinct, nearly black and white, trade offs for each and every action. Does delegating gun mods to the function of decoration really have a place here?

Quote

Also Rust is bad idea of comparision to EFT and ARMA would be more accurate one.

Common misconception if you're trying to bring it up here: ARMA recoil is realistic. 

It isn't. It's vastly bloated. Modern firearms don't bounce like rabbits, they're designed to stop that from happening.

Edited by Starioshka
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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, Starioshka said:

@GrumpyFox"Backwards" as in it's an old system which rose strictly from the limitations of the time. Is it bad? Certainly.

Now this is all nice and all, but if mods get reduced recoil characteristics what would be the point of using them at all if they do next to nothing? So far Tarkov has been strictly about distinct, nearly black and white, trade offs for each and every action. Does delegating gun mods to the function of decoration really have a place here?

Common misconception if you're trying to bring it up here: ARMA recoil is realistic. 

It isn't. It's vastly bloated. Modern firearms don't bounce like rabbits, they're designed to stop that from happening.

I'm not entirely sure if both of us are talking about the same thing or there is just conflict in understanding each other.

As I mentioned in my original post weapon mods would still have their use.

The most important unchanged factor would be:

  • Fully modded weapon would behave with it's visual firing as it is now, bullets spread would be barely affected as it should be tho.

Gun parts are mostly used for attachments/modularity of the weapon. Doing mods in real life won't bend or turn your weapon into no spread gun. Certain parts improve accuracy in real life but you fire your guns in semi, you WANT to fire your guns semi and not full auto.

That is the whole issue in Tarkov, they bend physics of bullet spread

Arma recoil system is still better comparision than RUST is as it's not arcade type of a game.

Arma system isn't best out there but actually one of closest to real comparision with lack of wind sway on bullets (which mods adds). If you change few things in options like headbobbing in that game you don't get guns bouncing like rabbits and mods of weapons serve purpose.

Edited by GrumpyFox
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Quote

Fully modded weapon would behave with it's visual firing as it is now, bullets spread would be barely affected as it should be tho.

This REALLY sounds like aimcone instead of actual recoil. Do tell how is that different?

Quote

If you change few things in options like headbobbing in that game you don't get guns bouncing like rabbits and mods of weapons serve purpose.

As in recoil. Modern Western Weapons have very little of that. It's strictly "Visual" in most cases the gun jumps after a shot, but returns to the exact same place it started from on the following shot on full auto.

Shooting in arma feels more like going ham on a m240b while standing. That gun actually goes straight up to touch the sky.

Edited by Starioshka
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7 hours ago, Starioshka said:

This REALLY sounds like aimcone instead of actual recoil. Do tell how is that different?

As in recoil. Modern Western Weapons have very little of that. It's strictly "Visual" in most cases the gun jumps after a shot, but returns to the exact same place it started from on the following shot on full auto.

Shooting in arma feels more like going ham on a m240b while standing. That gun actually goes straight up to touch the sky.

I did explain everything in my posts above. If you missed on some parts or didn't understand then please do read again and stop circling around in your responses making me actually repeat myself.

Please do read again what I've meant about visual recoil and then about bullet spread because those 2 things are completely different

"It had this exact cone recoil system and the developer got so many messages and complaints that he had to drop development of everything else and swap cone recoil for real recoil. The intention behind it also was to limit players ability to just wreck everybody if they're good enough and force single shoots"

I'm not sure if your headstrong and no argument or explanation works with you.

Realistic recoil isn't:

  • Spray pattern
  • Something that can be accurate in full auto and can be only accurate with single fire.

You just want to me to keep repeating myself on how stuff works and how it would work after adjustment.

You're also showing arma in false portrait. Watching any random video on youtube will prove you wrong. I'd do you a favor and install game just to record the shooting but I don't really have time and mood for that.

On this note I'd like to stop this discussion with you as I feel I'm being kind of rick rolled here even tho I explain myself and give in-game examples of how current game system works.

I'll sum this up this way:

You're free to disagree with me but if you want to dwelve deep into actual discussion you should stop talking in this way with people because you don't present any valuable points from your perspective as you jump around other games rather than focusing on the one this topic is about and try to de-rail my responses and I feel like you don't add anything of value here.

I bid you a good night kind sir 🙂

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I think they just need to adjust the recoil reduction effect. Like the basic ak muzzle device is known to be one of the best in the world for recoil reduction, but apparently not in this game.

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