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So what can we do to rebuild the immersion?


BrettB
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So I watched the 2 videos from Veritas about the history... and I was thrown back to the game I fell in love with... I still love it now, however while it feels more 'polished' its lost some unique appeal.

What are the things that we can bring back from 2017/18 while still moving forward in a development sense? I agree there are less bugs and some really good additions, but its lost some flavour on the progression line?

I will make one suggestion, and thats slowing the characters down. From lvl 0 to max... players should move slower (Inertia addition aimed to fix?) 

I hope to see some constructive comments and not 'Play another game or get good"

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23 minutes ago, BrettB said:

I will make one suggestion, and thats slowing the characters down. From lvl 0 to max... players should move slower (Inertia addition aimed to fix?) 

 

this is a must ^

1. they need to get rid of that strength perk for sure, that it gives apex legends jump and speed

2. need a decent inertia which locks you in a place if you AD

3. need to give all weapons the ergo like rfb and mosin so you can't run and gun. let me explain this a little bit, right now people are abusing a bug that gives them a massive advantage if they rush into a player's face, assuming the other player is holding an angle, and the big streamers do this shiet also. they run and ADS, which give them zero ergo and thanks to desync and sound bug, the one that holds an angle dies before even seeing the opponent and people who watch these streamers applause him for that move. said all these to come to this point that all weapons should have a delay for ads like mosin when you are running and you should not be able to ads right after you stopped sprinting. or even they can add a weapon sway when you ads after sprinting, so most of your shots will not hit the place you are aiming.

4. add vault mechanic and remove jumping from the game completely. this jumping thing is a thing that i can't understand in fps games at all. this comes from a guy who used to do parkour. me and my parkour fellers with only shirt and pants could not jump as high as these pmcs with all those gear and weapons plus the items in their bag. don't even want to talk about the multiple jump with max strength and endurance which we all know about by the name of bunnyhop.

 

after all like you said, if we want a playstyle like we see in BSG's trailers, they need to slowdown the players to the ground, which people will call it cluncky or junky movement, cause everyone got used to the fast and furious COD, battlefield, fortnite, apex .... movement thing in these years. this is the fact and no one can deny that. i can't imagine this cry baby community reaction, if BSG slow down players. just look at how they are crying about the little change on loot pool.

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Sadly I dont have have time to comment on this in detail, however you are on the same train of thought as me.

The core of the problem in my eyes, is people are forgetting we are playing BSG's baby - they are (ment) to be making the game they want to play... they are not making it for us..

The other thing is when they make a significant change - everyone sooks about it.... cause its different, and now I have to relearn how to wipe lobbies. <-- This is where the immersion is lost... too competitive.

I hope there are some other suggestions for BSG to read... but the suggestions should keep in line with the dream/goal of BSG's not people trying to make BSG make a game for themselves.

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the single most important thing that got changed over the years, which had the biggest impact on the gameplay, is just simply ammo price.

Back in the day all top tier rounds were 200-400 rubles, meaning you could run what ever gun you wanted.

I mean 5.45x39 BS was like 200 ish rubles from prapor, while M995 was 3-4$ each.

every one was deadly, time to kill was fast, you had to check your corners and angles constantly or you'd be dead in just one single frame.

The game was balanced, because Full auto guns like the "VSS or M4 or AK 74" were all equally powerful and affordable with each having strengths and weaknesses--- all that while semi auto guns had more pen and more dmg but were also affordable AND boltactions (mosin) would one hit kill.

So what do we have today? one single mag of your M4 costs more than your entire gear did back in the day.

meaning PVP is soo expensive thats its not worth it. you will not gain money, but you will lose it no matter what. So everyone is min maxing everything to reduce "farming time". Tarkov promotes ppl abusing the "market" and all the little details of the game, like knowing every single key card spawn location, WHILE back in the day it promoted pvp skill.

Tarkov was tactical, skill based, hardcore, terrifying and FUN ( yes Nikita, FUN and difficult do not cancel each other out)

Now its just not even close to what I enjoyed about the game.

 

Edited by GeneralBrus
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2 hours ago, behi09ma said:

this is a must ^

1. they need to get rid of that strength perk for sure, that it gives apex legends jump and speed

2. need a decent inertia which locks you in a place if you AD

3. need to give all weapons the ergo like rfb and mosin so you can't run and gun. let me explain this a little bit, right now people are abusing a bug that gives them a massive advantage if they rush into a player's face, assuming the other player is holding an angle, and the big streamers do this shiet also. they run and ADS, which give them zero ergo and thanks to desync and sound bug, the one that holds an angle dies before even seeing the opponent and people who watch these streamers applause him for that move. said all these to come to this point that all weapons should have a delay for ads like mosin when you are running and you should not be able to ads right after you stopped sprinting. or even they can add a weapon sway when you ads after sprinting, so most of your shots will not hit the place you are aiming.

4. add vault mechanic and remove jumping from the game completely. this jumping thing is a thing that i can't understand in fps games at all. this comes from a guy who used to do parkour. me and my parkour fellers with only shirt and pants could not jump as high as these pmcs with all those gear and weapons plus the items in their bag. don't even want to talk about the multiple jump with max strength and endurance which we all know about by the name of bunnyhop.

 

after all like you said, if we want a playstyle like we see in BSG's trailers, they need to slowdown the players to the ground, which people will call it cluncky or junky movement, cause everyone got used to the fast and furious COD, battlefield, fortnite, apex .... movement thing in these years. this is the fact and no one can deny that. i can't imagine this cry baby community reaction, if BSG slow down players. just look at how they are crying about the little change on loot pool.

I agree with most of this. However when I train with my rifle I have no issue getting hits while moving inside 50 yards. It's even easier if I have a red dot. (This btw is one of the real life advantages of a red dot)

But yes on the movement stuff. Jump should be nerfed but still exist. There are a few places when you might still need to jump over barbed wire on the ground.

But they absolutely do need to fix some of these insane movement tricks people do. Like jumping off the roof of Dorms to land on the top of a fence with barbed wire. Doing that would really mess you up, it should be more damaging than just hitting flat ground and breaking both legs.

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2 hours ago, GeneralBrus said:

the single most important thing that got changed over the years, which had the biggest impact on the gameplay, is just simply ammo price.

Back in the day all top tier rounds were 200-400 rubles, meaning you could run what ever gun you wanted.

I mean 5.45x39 BS was like 200 ish rubles from prapor, while M995 was 3-4$ each.

every one was deadly, time to kill was fast, you had to check your corners and angles constantly or you'd be dead in just one single frame.

The game was balanced, because Full auto guns like the "VSS or M4 or AK 74" were all equally powerful and affordable with each having strengths and weaknesses--- all that while semi auto guns had more pen and more dmg but were also affordable AND boltactions (mosin) would one hit kill.

So what do we have today? one single mag of your M4 costs more than your entire gear did back in the day.

meaning PVP is soo expensive thats its not worth it. you will not gain money, but you will lose it no matter what. So everyone is min maxing everything to reduce "farming time". Tarkov promotes ppl abusing the "market" and all the little details of the game, like knowing every single key card spawn location, WHILE back in the day it promoted pvp skill.

Tarkov was tactical, skill based, hardcore, terrifying and FUN ( yes Nikita, FUN and difficult do not cancel each other out)

Now its just not even close to what I enjoyed about the game.

 

They need to balance ammo out too. And I dare say remove a full half of the useless rounds. For example there shouldn't be that many 9x18 rounds. Nobody uses more than 2-3 of these rounds. And even then they only do that early wipe when Keder's and such are still viable weapons.

Seeing this always cracks me up:

https://escapefromtarkov.fandom.com/wiki/9x18mm_Makarov

Edited by Fly_Guy8791
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They need to make everything more severe: damage, weight, movement. Also grenades are a joke. You can basically stand in close vicinity and still survive without a scratch. just go around a corner and you´re save from even a concussion.

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8 hours ago, GeneralBrus said:

the single most important thing that got changed over the years, which had the biggest impact on the gameplay, is just simply ammo price.

Back in the day all top tier rounds were 200-400 rubles, meaning you could run what ever gun you wanted.

I mean 5.45x39 BS was like 200 ish rubles from prapor, while M995 was 3-4$ each.

every one was deadly, time to kill was fast, you had to check your corners and angles constantly or you'd be dead in just one single frame.

The game was balanced, because Full auto guns like the "VSS or M4 or AK 74" were all equally powerful and affordable with each having strengths and weaknesses--- all that while semi auto guns had more pen and more dmg but were also affordable AND boltactions (mosin) would one hit kill.

So what do we have today? one single mag of your M4 costs more than your entire gear did back in the day.

meaning PVP is soo expensive thats its not worth it. you will not gain money, but you will lose it no matter what. So everyone is min maxing everything to reduce "farming time". Tarkov promotes ppl abusing the "market" and all the little details of the game, like knowing every single key card spawn location, WHILE back in the day it promoted pvp skill.

Tarkov was tactical, skill based, hardcore, terrifying and FUN ( yes Nikita, FUN and difficult do not cancel each other out)

Now its just not even close to what I enjoyed about the game.

 

Hi @GeneralBrus!

That's an interesting point... Please correct me if I'm wrong, but from what you're saying, you feel the cost of ammo has introduced a very high "barrier to entry" for players being able to regularly engage in PvP. And if the PvP aspects of the game are heavily discouraged, that may leave very little left for EFT to hang its hat on. Because while a good argument could be made that EFT is meant to be "more than" PvP, its ongoing threat/presence in the game is essential to creating a proper survival-esque atmosphere.

Add to that the altered risk/reward of Scav play... I've seen some who feel that whole side of the game has diminished considerably as well now that players are strongly encouraged to *NOT* engage other player scavs. Leaving many scratching their heads as to what the current purpose is to play the game.

(Is any of that kind of what you're getting at?)

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6 minutes ago, Spectator6 said:

Hi @GeneralBrus!

That's an interesting point... Please correct me if I'm wrong, but from what you're saying, you feel the cost of ammo has introduced a very high "barrier to entry" for players being able to regularly engage in PvP. And if the PvP aspects of the game are heavily discouraged, that may leave very little left for EFT to hang its hat on. Because while a good argument could be made that EFT is meant to be "more than" PvP, its ongoing threat/presence in the game is essential to creating a proper survival-esque atmosphere.

Add to that the altered risk/reward of Scav play... I've seen some who feel that whole side of the game has diminished considerably as well now that players are strongly encouraged to *NOT* engage other player scavs. Leaving many scratching their heads as to what the current purpose is to play the game.

(Is any of that kind of what you're getting at?)

Excellent focusing post

So this wipe, I was watching streamers progress more than I did a lot of other wipes, and the stead fast advice was 'the best thing you can do is survive', so at the beginning of this wipe and most others the emphasis was on this being a 'survival game' and that pvp wasn't profitable in regards to questing or financially. Now there were always the proclaimed chads that aggressively sought players in proximity, but it's late enough in the wipe and the loot is scarce enough (thanks dynamic loot) that it's more profitable to hunt other players, or for the other end of the spectrum to rat more critical junctions to profit from killing people that are in the middle of the spectrum, which makes my raids personally feel kind of meh. There was a big excitement to trying to get out with high tier stuff and not dying which feels dead again.

But I digress, his points about ammo are pretty valid I believe. A solid kit of M61 for an MDR is almost as costly as the slick and altyn that are being worn. We always progress to a point in which M61/M993 is king because of the ability to 2-shot consistently, putting it into S tier. Anything on A tier is also bloated on pricing significantly i.e. m855a1,m995, 9x39 bp, etc... My personal beliefs are that those ammo types need to become more scarce and not at trader, akin to what they did with 338 AP. Sure I've died to it, maybe once or twice, but it's more of an exception than a standard that has now been established.

Same concepts with armor, it gets old to me sparing with rhys and hex gamers constantly seeing who can hit the other with some crazy ammo a few times.

In terms of the scav comment, I thought scav karma would be interesting, working with other scavs, but it leaves a significant portion of my scav runs boring and punishes me for defending myself quite often. While last wipe, I thought the wiggle and making friends was impossible, which led me to wanting some sort of penalty to KoS scavs, this wipe I want KoS back. I find myself bored on scavs, shot by scavs who don't give a crap, and hardly experiencing the benefits to scavs working together as the likelihood of a scav zerg on a pmc happening being very low.

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6 hours ago, Fly_Guy8791 said:

I agree with most of this. However when I train with my rifle I have no issue getting hits while moving inside 50 yards. It's even easier if I have a red dot. (This btw is one of the real life advantages of a red dot)

But yes on the movement stuff. Jump should be nerfed but still exist. There are a few places when you might still need to jump over barbed wire on the ground.

But they absolutely do need to fix some of these insane movement tricks people do. Like jumping off the roof of Dorms to land on the top of a fence with barbed wire. Doing that would really mess you up, it should be more damaging than just hitting flat ground and breaking both legs.

Even if you have a longer range sight on your gun you can just use Occluded eye and be extremely accurate at close ranges.

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27 minutes ago, Spectator6 said:

Hi @GeneralBrus!

That's an interesting point... Please correct me if I'm wrong, but from what you're saying, you feel the cost of ammo has introduced a very high "barrier to entry" for players being able to regularly engage in PvP. And if the PvP aspects of the game are heavily discouraged, that may leave very little left for EFT to hang its hat on. Because while a good argument could be made that EFT is meant to be "more than" PvP, its ongoing threat/presence in the game is essential to creating a proper survival-esque atmosphere.

Add to that the altered risk/reward of Scav play... I've seen some who feel that whole side of the game has diminished considerably as well now that players are strongly encouraged to *NOT* engage other player scavs. Leaving many scratching their heads as to what the current purpose is to play the game.

(Is any of that kind of what you're getting at?)

This is honestly EXACTLY what i feel.

PvP is what makes this game. I think to experience this just simply play Single Player and see the difference.

You can just freely run around without care or worry. Every shot does not feel like a risk. You can pretty much just relax and loot.

As for Scav PvP. I personally learned how to PvP in this game on my Scav last wipe. It was an immense help to learn to PvP without the risk of loss. I personally never understood why Scav on Scav violence was a bad thing, but I guess I do understand it helps players that just need to make some money.

I think we keep making changes that diminish the PvP in this game. Now players can just avoid each other either running stashes or less traffic areas of the map and still make some money.

In an post-apocalyptic world everyone would be a threat. Doing any sort of loot run for gear would be a great risk. The more you pull away from PvP the more you remove that risk. That stress. That worry. Those moments that get your heart pumping. When you make it out of a raid it should feel like a "holy poo" kind of a feeling.

Maybe that is just me, but I find that kind of a game much more exciting and appealing.

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If you are trying to survive, (this is a survival game after all...) the combat, PvP would be a last resort, not going out specifically to just shoot at every possible target you bump into, because you would rapidly find yourself dead.

All I see is people running around with top gear and weapons, running full pelt everywhere, basically running and gunning to grind the best loot... 

The game seems to be only geared to loot grinding as fast as possible, no real survival aspect at all. 

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30 minutes ago, Trooper117 said:

If you are trying to survive, (this is a survival game after all...) the combat, PvP would be a last resort, not going out specifically to just shoot at every possible target you bump into, because you would rapidly find yourself dead.

All I see is people running around with top gear and weapons, running full pelt everywhere, basically running and gunning to grind the best loot... 

The game seems to be only geared to loot grinding as fast as possible, no real survival aspect at all. 

The more you survive the less gear you have to replace, and the more loot you bring out with you. This game is about survival.

I am one of those guys that push PvP and I will tell you why.

1. The more PvP encounters you have...the more experience you have...the faster you improve.

My goal here is to improve faster than the rest of the player base. The better you are the more you survive. The best way to get there is experience.

This might be solved once their "arena" mode comes out

2. Despite what many others would try to have you believe cheating is a major problem. A vast majority of cheaters run ESP. Very few run aimbot. If you are trying to be stealthy you will find that every few raids you will just die out of the blue.

ESP does not make you a good shot. If I am constantly moving even if they have ESP I am still likely to win that gunfight. So for me personally constant movement is my counter to ESP hackers.

3. My play style and where I shine is up close fights. A majority of fights I have within a 50 yard range I win. Fights at a farther distance I just do not have as good of target acquisition that other players do. Some players have incredible eye for slight detail changes. They are just better than me at that. So I benefit from bringing the fight to closer ranges.

So in summary my survival rating goes UP pushing fights and taking out targets when I know where they are. If I do not push and eliminate those threats I tend to get shot out of the blue and have no clue where it came from until I watch the replay.

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4 hours ago, poop_chute said:

Excellent focusing post

So this wipe, I was watching streamers progress more than I did a lot of other wipes, and the stead fast advice was 'the best thing you can do is survive', so at the beginning of this wipe and most others the emphasis was on this being a 'survival game' and that pvp wasn't profitable in regards to questing or financially. Now there were always the proclaimed chads that aggressively sought players in proximity, but it's late enough in the wipe and the loot is scarce enough (thanks dynamic loot) that it's more profitable to hunt other players, or for the other end of the spectrum to rat more critical junctions to profit from killing people that are in the middle of the spectrum, which makes my raids personally feel kind of meh. There was a big excitement to trying to get out with high tier stuff and not dying which feels dead again.

But I digress, his points about ammo are pretty valid I believe. A solid kit of M61 for an MDR is almost as costly as the slick and altyn that are being worn. We always progress to a point in which M61/M993 is king because of the ability to 2-shot consistently, putting it into S tier. Anything on A tier is also bloated on pricing significantly i.e. m855a1,m995, 9x39 bp, etc... My personal beliefs are that those ammo types need to become more scarce and not at trader, akin to what they did with 338 AP. Sure I've died to it, maybe once or twice, but it's more of an exception than a standard that has now been established.

Same concepts with armor, it gets old to me sparing with rhys and hex gamers constantly seeing who can hit the other with some crazy ammo a few times.

In terms of the scav comment, I thought scav karma would be interesting, working with other scavs, but it leaves a significant portion of my scav runs boring and punishes me for defending myself quite often. While last wipe, I thought the wiggle and making friends was impossible, which led me to wanting some sort of penalty to KoS scavs, this wipe I want KoS back. I find myself bored on scavs, shot by scavs who don't give a crap, and hardly experiencing the benefits to scavs working together as the likelihood of a scav zerg on a pmc happening being very low.

The reason playing as a Scav is boring is obvious and simple...

It's because nobody is left in the raid. Take Customs for example, you WILL spawn in with 9-12 min left in the raid. All the PMC's picked the map clean and left 15 minutes ago. And BSG wonders why players where killing other Scavs.

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1 hour ago, Trooper117 said:

If you are trying to survive, (this is a survival game after all...) the combat, PvP would be a last resort, not going out specifically to just shoot at every possible target you bump into, because you would rapidly find yourself dead.

All I see is people running around with top gear and weapons, running full pelt everywhere, basically running and gunning to grind the best loot... 

The game seems to be only geared to loot grinding as fast as possible, no real survival aspect at all. 

This is where I think its lost something.. your comments ring true with me...

Its become 80% shooter and only 20% survival. Where back in the day it was probably the other way around!!!

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29 minutes ago, Fly_Guy8791 said:

The reason playing as a Scav is boring is obvious and simple...

It's because nobody is left in the raid. Take Customs for example, you WILL spawn in with 9-12 min left in the raid. All the PMC's picked the map clean and left 15 minutes ago. And BSG wonders why players where killing other Scavs.

This!

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6 hours ago, Spectator6 said:

And if the PvP aspects of the game are heavily discouraged, that may leave very little left for EFT to hang its hat on.

The Devs have been saying for years that PVP should and will be a last resort on release, their vision was/is for ammo and decent gear to be so scarce that picking fights or more importantly NOT fighting would be paramount. If that isn't heavy discouragement then what is?.

The problem here is, they have made higher tier ammo out of reach for newer/intermediate players whilst doing nothing to slow the playstyle everyone is now used to. Once they nerfed the mosin there was no gun available to give even returning established players(maybe after a time away from the game or a character reset) a chance to fight fully geared guys.

It's just a quick race from the start of wipe to get hideout making money and then you can basically become a quicker moving, higher jumping, ADADADAD tank with access to syringes that magically heal you over time and the best ammo available. It's boring and frankly ridiculous.

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Hello Angry!

2 hours ago, Angrybiker said:

their vision was/is for ammo and decent gear to be so scarce that picking fights or more importantly NOT fighting would be paramount. If that isn't heavy discouragement then what is?.

Yeah, I see where you're coming from there. Like you, I've been waiting for that "scarcity" thing for years. Time and again I'm left scratching my head thinking, annnny day now...

It does make me wonder, though, how "easy" will it be for the game to make that shift?

To exaggerate the point a bit...

---------------------

(Clears throat, prepares announcer voice) In a world In a game that...

  • has the most advanced weapon modding system ever seen
  • has 50 bajillion different ammunition types
  • has an extensive health and damage system
  • etc etc

its weapons are meant to be used merely as visual deterrents to the most intense game of hide-and-seek man has ever known!

  • Player A: "I see an enemy! Let's get him!"
  • Teammate: "HOLD YER FIRE!!! Remember, we're not supposed to shoot... Just saying that you saw him is good enough!"
  • Player A: (looks down at his loadout, utterly confused) "B-b-b-ut the trailer? The gunfights, the shooting..."

-------------------

Hopefully, they'll start doubling down on the hardcore aspects of the game so that the natural consequences "do the talking".

But even that may be a hard pill for some to swallow. Because almost by definition, the more "realistic/lifelike" the repercussions become, the more "unfair" players will start to behave. IRL people don't opt for a fair fight ("Okay, everyone  get in a straight line, brandish your weapons at the same time. On the count of three, ready?") No, IRL, "cheap shots" and ambushes reign supreme. The name of the game is precisely to NOT fight fair. And yet, time and again, "fair" fights seem to be what so many are clamoring for.

(Is that kind of what you're getting at too or am I way off base from you?)

Edited by Spectator6
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19 hours ago, GeneralBrus said:

So what do we have today? one single mag of your M4 costs more than your entire gear did back in the day.

meaning PVP is soo expensive thats its not worth it.

This is the intended state of affairs.

A.: PvP is meant to be a last resort/task necessity, not a core component of the gameplay loop (there are features planned that all deter PvP, such as docking your rep with a trader if you kill PMC's of their favored faction).

B.: Ammo is one of the top 3 (alongside fire and water) most sought after thing in a SHTF survival scenario: one gun can fire lots of ammo, one round cannot feed lots of guns, and you can use ammo to secure food.

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6 hours ago, Naqel said:

This is the intended state of affairs.

A.: PvP is meant to be a last resort/task necessity, not a core component of the gameplay loop (there are features planned that all deter PvP, such as docking your rep with a trader if you kill PMC's of their favored faction).

B.: Ammo is one of the top 3 (alongside fire and water) most sought after thing in a SHTF survival scenario: one gun can fire lots of ammo, one round cannot feed lots of guns, and you can use ammo to secure food.

cool, so that means this is more a "survival" game than a pvp game right? okay so tell me then, what are the survival mechanics of Tarkov? you need to drink milk? yea thats about it. 

Tarkov is NOT a survival game at all, because you dont have to look for food to "exit" a raid, in fact you dont even have to survive, getting killed has no consequences besides you loosing gear. 

So that now means that the ONLY punishment you get from getting killed is loosing your gear. So whats the purpose of this gear then if not for pvp? Is it Pve? No, you dont have to kill anything to "survive".

That means, the best way to play this game IS by that logic:

1. step spawn and hide somewhere for 40 minutes

2. step : run directly to the exit

3. gg you survived

 

Tarkov has ZERO incentive to even try to survive, because the game doesnt punish you if you dont, and also doesnt promote you if you do.

 

Now I am not saying that Im against Tarkov becoming a survival game, BUT to say tarkov issnt about PVP is ridiculous at the current state of the game. 

 

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14 hours ago, Naqel said:

This is the intended state of affairs.

A.: PvP is meant to be a last resort/task necessity, not a core component of the gameplay loop (there are features planned that all deter PvP, such as docking your rep with a trader if you kill PMC's of their favored faction).

B.: Ammo is one of the top 3 (alongside fire and water) most sought after thing in a SHTF survival scenario: one gun can fire lots of ammo, one round cannot feed lots of guns, and you can use ammo to secure food.

besides the eating and drinking required, give me one example of how this is a survival game and not a battle royale off-chute?

the quicker the community realizes that this will never be a legitimate survival game due to the nature of how it's designed, the better it will be when it comes to forcing the dev team to actually shape it like the community wants, not just another trip down the yellow brick road with crappy knee jerk implementations. take the loot nerf for instance, there was such an outcry about how freaking dumb it was to cut all loot as bad as they did, there was a revision shortly after, while it may not be what it was, we had about a day of unified WTF status from the players and BSG had to respond. Now, once the posted increase took place, the game apologists decided to let go of the momentum to say it was good enough, which really hurts the game for everyone imo. I've played a lot of games where there are bait and switch methods employed and the game ultimately dies because the developer focuses more on putting a shiny object in for the ignorant masses and then just ignores everything else and it just ends up imploding eventually.

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2 hours ago, poop_chute said:

A.: PvP is meant to be a last resort/task necessity, not a core component of the gameplay loop

This is what it was like early days....which in my view is the key ingredient thats been lost 

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