Scavs need to be changed

March 30, 2022

Hello forum,

To begin with, I'd like to preface that I've played this game since the pre alpha when only the EOD edition could get you to play. I've always got my bitcoin farm every wipe since its introduction. I play quite a bit and overall like the game. (Obviously since I'm still playing :p) However there is a single glaring issue with the game: SCAVS. Funnily enough the main issue with all scavs is common to the AI Scav and Player scav: they are 0 regards for their lives. And this is the most realism breaking feature in the game by FAR.

What are scavs? Scavengers to give them their full name, are beings that come in AFTER the fighting to pick up leftover scraps. The idea is to have as little risk to their person as possible. Most of them, according to the lore are civilians. It makes sense then to assume that, scavs should be fearful little individuals who go around looting discreetly. ABOVE ALL ELSE they should avoid engaging in a fire fight with ACTUAL combat trained soldiers. Sure sometimes they might think they can hunt down and kill a solo PMC if they have a sufficient numbers advantage. But ask yourself, what would the average scavenger do if 2, 3 or more of their party gets killed? What would the average scavenger do if he walked in a courtyard with tens, dozens of dead scavs all around ? Would he actively seek out the culprit? Would he go in charging for the honor of the dead ? Or would he crap his pants and run away ? That's more likely. That's what actual scavs would do. No doubt many soldiers would also turn tail and run if they saw their squad getting slaughtered but while it may be debatable for actual soldiers, there is no doubt that would be true for scavengers.

Now that we've established a realistic behavior, what do we get in this game? A game which, may I remind you, set out to be the most realistic game of the shooter genre. We get giga chads. Scavs will push you, play aggro and not rest until they're killed all the PMC's in the area with 0 REGARDS for their life. They're NPC's and darn, I don't think I've ever had NPC that felt this detached from their life in game. If for some reason you decide to spawn naked, the matter is even worse with scavs going out of their way to hunt you down and kill you, even if you kill dozens of them, even if the ground of the land if soaked in the blood of their fellow scavs, they will still hunt you down. This is the single most unrealistic aspect of the game, by far. And I'm not talking about scavs seeing you through walls, "head-eyes" ' ing you from 300 meters in the pitch dark or running at full speed despite taking 69 shots to the legs, full auto-ing a stockless ak74-u from 150 meters with perfect accuracy. These are points I hope BSG will eventually refine otherwise we're going to have to accept that the average scav in tarkov could eat Rambo for breakfast.

The exact same issue is present with player scavs that are INCENTIVIZED to disregard their life for a tiny chance to get loot. Would a scav really run to an area of heavy fighting and try to finish off all those alive for their gear???? Really ? Of course not. He'd probably make a not of where the fighting was, make sure to stay as far away as possible and maybe swing by far later. But for some reason, this game is INCENTIVIZING player scavs to run head first into fights and this is what gives birth to the most frustrating experience of the game. Playing as a PMC, caring for your life, you got good loot, had a successful raid so far. Your life and extraction matters. This is the main problem. Only the PMC's have a fear of death. Neither the AI not scav players fear death in the least which is the biggest flaw of the game. Far are the early days of this game, when people moved around slowly, listened for noise, feared for their life. Now you have people running around like madmen, shooting everything that moves. Get killed ?? No matter, no penalty for it. Just wait a few minutes and try again.

The same goes for the scav boss and their guards. Sure you can say maybe Gluhar's men are loyal to him and would specifically hunt you down if you kill him. But is that true for every boss ? Shturman's guards for example, are they loyal to him or are they mercenaries paid from his stash to protect him ? Would a guard who sees Shturman and the other guard get killed rush in to avenge or would he run for his life ?

So by now I think I've made it clear the issue scavs have. The thing is, this issue is a conscious and deliberate move by BSG for the feel of the game which I don't understand and people I play with don't understand either. This game is far less "Tarkov" than it is COD these days with a different skin. When you have people like Pestily (I enjoy his videos, this is not an attack) running around in labs, jumping from platform to container, taking morphine, jumping down, breaking both legs but still be able to sprint at full speed and kill whatever is near, this is not the Tarkov experience. This is Call of Duty the exact opposite of what this game set out to be.

Anyway this post is way too long. I think we can all agree on this. To wrap up I'd like to present my ideas to give back some of this fear of death to player scavs. Changes would only fit the changes the game has undergone. There was a time when you had no hideout, when well over 50% of the games you played ended up with you either disconnecting/de-syncing or just "dying". This is no longer the case as such the true NEED for scav runs has considerably diminished.

1. Have a limited amount of scavs runs possible for a wipe. When you run out, you run out. If your stash is empty and you have nothing left, well bad luck, should have invested a bit more in your pmc/hideout/keys whatever. Reset your profile. This would be way less forgiving and more in line with what Tarkov was aimed to be. ATM you can do nothing but run around like an imbecile and fall back on your scav runs with no consequences.

2. Have unlimited scav runs until you reach a certain level. Flea market level ? 20? Something like that, a bit like how Therapist will heal you for free at the beginning.

3. Everytime you die as a scav your scav run timer increases. This way you can't just spam scav runs, rush to a fight, die, rince and repeat.

4. Have scav runs cost you. How ? Different ways, for instance every time you die, it costs Fence as he is the "scav chief". You enter into debt with him, and as long as you are in debt, ai scavs will prioritize killing you.

Here are a few ways to make scav runs have consequences rather than be the exact opposite the game is supposed to be. I only addressed player scavs here, for AI scavs, that's up to BSG to change their behavior. Whether it's fear or whatever.

Let me know what you think!

PS. PLEASE FIX SCAVS/RAIDERS ETC BEING ABLE TO USAIN BOLT EVERYWHERE WITH NO LEGS AND THE FULL AUTO FROM 90000M WITH DEADLY ACCURACY.

1.7k · March 30, 2022

28 minutes ago, Sneakyfox said:

What are scavs? Scavengers to give them their full name, are beings that come in AFTER the fighting to pick up leftover scraps. The idea is to have as little risk to their person as possible. Most of them, according to the lore are civilians. It makes sense then to assume that, scavs should be fearful little individuals who go around looting discreetly. ABOVE ALL ELSE they should avoid engaging in a fire fight with ACTUAL combat trained soldiers. Sure sometimes they might think they can hunt down and kill a solo PMC if they have a sufficient numbers advantage. But ask yourself, what would the average scavenger do if 2, 3 or more of their party gets killed? What would the average scavenger do if he walked in a courtyard with tens, dozens of dead scavs all around ? Would he actively seek out the culprit? Would he go in charging for the honor of the dead ? Or would he crap his pants and run away ? That's more likely. That's what actual scavs would do. No doubt many soldiers would also turn tail and run if they saw their squad getting slaughtered but while it may be debatable for actual soldiers, there is no doubt that would be true for scavengers.

That is what you are saying is realistic. Big Nikki says most of them are nutters for not leaving. And I would absolutely look for the sole survivor to take their stuff. Being ruthless is how they are surviving. What BSG needs to do is put player scavs into raids earlier so they have a actual chance of bumping into a PMC.

Now that we've established a realistic behavior, what do we get in this game? A game which, may I remind you, set out to be the most realistic game of the shooter genre. We get giga chads. Scavs will push you, play aggro and not rest until they're killed all the PMC's in the area with 0 REGARDS for their life. They're NPC's and darn, I don't think I've ever had NPC that felt this detached from their life in game. If for some reason you decide to spawn naked, the matter is even worse with scavs going out of their way to hunt you down and kill you, even if you kill dozens of them, even if the ground of the land if soaked in the blood of their fellow scavs, they will still hunt you down. This is the single most unrealistic aspect of the game, by far. And I'm not talking about scavs seeing you through walls, "head-eyes" ' ing you from 300 meters in the pitch dark or running at full speed despite taking 69 shots to the legs, full auto-ing a stockless ak74-u from 150 meters with perfect accuracy. These are points I hope BSG will eventually refine otherwise we're going to have to accept that the average scav in tarkov could eat Rambo for breakfast.

I shoot at or near one scav they scatter like cockroaches. Very rarely do they "hunt me down".

The exact same issue is present with player scavs that are INCENTIVIZED to disregard their life for a tiny chance to get loot. Would a scav really run to an area of heavy fighting and try to finish off all those alive for their gear???? Really ? Of course not. He'd probably make a not of where the fighting was, make sure to stay as far away as possible and maybe swing by far later. But for some reason, this game is INCENTIVIZING player scavs to run head first into fights and this is what gives birth to the most frustrating experience of the game. Playing as a PMC, caring for your life, you got good loot, had a successful raid so far. Your life and extraction matters. This is the main problem. Only the PMC's have a fear of death. Neither the AI not scav players fear death in the least which is the biggest flaw of the game. Far are the early days of this game, when people moved around slowly, listened for noise, feared for their life. Now you have people running around like madmen, shooting everything that moves. Get killed ?? No matter, no penalty for it. Just wait a few minutes and try again.

It is a VERY GOOD thing that you are not penalized for dying as a scav.

1. Have a limited amount of scavs runs possible for a wipe. When you run out, you run out. If your stash is empty and you have nothing left, well bad luck, should have invested a bit more in your pmc/hideout/keys whatever. Reset your profile. This would be way less forgiving and more in line with what Tarkov was aimed to be. ATM you can do nothing but run around like an imbecile and fall back on your scav runs with no consequences.

The whole point of scav runs is that they are risk free. A safety net for people that lose everything or cannot reliably survive on they PMC.

2. Have unlimited scav runs until you reach a certain level. Flea market level ? 20? Something like that, a bit like how Therapist will heal you for free at the beginning.

No. Again this is a safety net.

3. Everytime you die as a scav your scav run timer increases. This way you can't just spam scav runs, rush to a fight, die, rince and repeat.

What a terrible idea. Nothing is wrong with people "spamming" a scav run. It doesn't hurt anyone else.

4. Have scav runs cost you. How ? Different ways, for instance every time you die, it costs Fence as he is the "scav chief". You enter into debt with him, and as long as you are in debt, ai scavs will prioritize killing you.

So people can get locked out of the safety net? Nope again TERRIBLE idea.

Here are a few ways to make scav runs have consequences rather than be the exact opposite the game is supposed to be. I only addressed player scavs here, for AI scavs, that's up to BSG to change their behavior. Whether it's fear or whatever.

Let me know what you think!

The whole point of scav runs is that they are free of "consequences".

Edited March 30, 2022 by Fly_Guy8791
Lets Go Brandon

1.7k · March 30, 2022

TLDR

I disagree with everything except for Bosses, Rogues and Raiders being unrealistically accurate with full auto rifle fire. (And the bullet sponge HP of bosses is super F--ked up too)

Edited March 30, 2022 by Fly_Guy8791
Lets Go Brandon

April 12, 2022

On 3/30/2022 at 1:16 PM, Fly_Guy8791 said:

TLDR

I disagree with everything except for Bosses, Rogues and Raiders being unrealistically accurate with full auto rifle fire. (And the bullet sponge HP of bosses is super F--ked up too)

It's funny you say scav runs are supposed to be a safety net. Indeed that's their base function. But is that how people use the scav runs ?

No they abuse them to be able to run in, try to kill pmc and get out pronto. At that point it's more an exploit than a "safety net". BSG clearly thinks so too to some extent since they introduced a cooldown on the scav whereas you could spam the scav run before.

Also scavs are nuts for staying. And???? They might be nuts, sure, but running to kill a pmc when you already took 3 shots, isn't nuts, it's suicidal. If they stay in tarkov it's to live not get killed. You can spin it any way you like, but a person getting shot multiple times by a "chad" will run away from certain death.

1.7k · April 12, 2022

13 minutes ago, Sneakyfox said:

It's funny you say scav runs are supposed to be a safety net. Indeed that's their base function. But is that how people use the scav runs ?

No they abuse them to be able to run in, try to kill pmc and get out pronto. At that point it's more an exploit than a "safety net". BSG clearly thinks so too to some extent since they introduced a cooldown on the scav whereas you could spam the scav run before.

Also scavs are nuts for staying. And???? They might be nuts, sure, but running to kill a pmc when you already took 3 shots, isn't nuts, it's suicidal. If they stay in tarkov it's to live not get killed. You can spin it any way you like, but a person getting shot multiple times by a "chad" will run away from certain death.

Yes, the "safety net" is the scav raid's mechanical function. That is the reason it is in the game. And yes some people (those who have large amounts of "gear fear" or rage at the thought of losing what they have) will play their scav as a main character. So what? It isn't hurting anyone or anything. And yes the timer is intended to make you have to run your PMC at least sometimes. That is why you can only shave off so much time from the reset timer. This is common knowledge, and none of it is a "exploit" so why are you even bringing it up?

Playing a scav with the intent on killing a PMC isn't "abusing" anything. That is simply playing the game. If your PMC gets zapped by a player scav then the other player earned your stuff. You shouldn't have been slippin.

Nikita said himself that the scavs are people that chose to stay in Tarkov and that they are a little crazy (which is why some of them laugh for no reason etc) This isn't my opinion, this is the head developer/creator of the game saying it. And scav DO do things to protect their own life. They heal, they run away and hide in cover when shot etc.

Edited April 12, 2022 by Fly_Guy8791
Lets Go Brandon

3.1k · April 12, 2022

On 3/30/2022 at 11:45 AM, Sneakyfox said:

Anyway this post is way too long. I think we can all agree on this.

It started off well but went a bit in the wrong direction in the latter half.

Certainly an interesting concept of scavs fearing for their life more. However I do see scavs run off and hide when I drop their mates and when I injure them heavily they bugger off somewhere - they always come back so part of what you say is kinda in the game just needs a LOT of work to make it more realistic.

I've always wanted scavs to roam the maps randomly with some fixed positions like power station @ shoreline or checkpoint @ customs, which makes sense really, and it would make the maps far more dynamic potentially stopping PMC's high tailing it to loot spots.

However they shouldn't shoot on sight, perhaps inherit some of the boss guard qualities of shouting at you first so you don't get too near and only open fire if you cross the line. With certain parts of the maps being a congregation point for scavs it could almost force a firefight for the first set of PMC's that get there and leave it open for others later. Might need some map reworks or a few more 'trees' to stop people sniping them from miles away.

Anyway, onto the not so great stuff from your ideas.

On 3/30/2022 at 11:45 AM, Sneakyfox said:

1. Have a limited amount of scavs runs possible for a wipe.

Absolutely not, you can have your PMC screwed over so much you have to rely on scav runs to get cash. Not only that you're not thinking about the end game/release game where the might not be a wipe (not discussing this, use the other thread).

On 3/30/2022 at 11:45 AM, Sneakyfox said:

2. Have unlimited scav runs until you reach a certain level.

Absolutely not, as above you can get screwed over for cash where you will need them - and levels *will* get reached one way or another as the only way is up.

On 3/30/2022 at 11:45 AM, Sneakyfox said:

3. Everytime you die as a scav your scav run timer increases.

That goes against the whole point of building part of your hideout. However the increase in timer was discussed in length on other threads if you were to perform a hostile action, as a form of punishment.

On 3/30/2022 at 11:45 AM, Sneakyfox said:

4. Have scav runs cost you. How ?

Similar to above, it goes against the major point of doing scav runs, which is to gain wealth in times of need, or just to gain easy wealth. The economy is a bit screwed at higher levels and loot distribution has been a big thing recently so perhaps the thought should be directed towards "how much should a scav run net you?"

There is quite a divide in the community on how scav's should be played which has only ended in the discussion if they should shoot other scavs on sight or not. I know this isn't the point here but it can't be ignored when taking your ideas into consideration.

3.1k · April 12, 2022

1 hour ago, Sneakyfox said:

No they abuse them to be able to run in, try to kill pmc and get out pronto.

I don't believe they do, some might sure but their playstyles don't speak for us all. Like mentioned above there are as many people who don't engage in combat as a scav as there are which apparently do.

If I hear killa cleaning house then I'll definitely risk it all to see what goodies are left about - otherwise I won't go near a known PMC battle with my hand-me-down busted up 9mm PP gun.