SCAV on SCAV violence, will it ever end?

May 18

I really enjoy playing this game, however the amount of scav on scav violence is so frustrating. I have been gunned down by scavs so many times, that I am about to loose my mind. I already quit playing once, and I just started playing again. I even had one scav shoot me in the back while I was at the exfil trying to extract. So I ask, when will the madness stop? Or do I just need to stop playing this game and go shoot myself in the head?

1.2k · May 18

Quote

SCAV on SCAV violence, will it ever end?

No. It will never end. It was never supposed to end. There will always be Scav war.

1.8k · May 18

Hopefully it won't ever end.

Scav runs need to have some danger. By the time most player scavs load in PMC's are already on the way to extract.

May 18

It's a scav-eat-scav world. You don't have to blast everything you see but hide the good stuff you find and always maintain eye contact with player scavs

May 19

On 5/18/2023 at 7:23 AM, A190Fireball said:

Or do I just need to stop playing this game?

Apparently, yes.
Scav runs are a crutch not a free lunch, i have no clue why people are complaining.

May 19

The best part is that this merry-go-round that happens about every 2 to 3 months is moot once the actual game releases (assuming it survives the next 6 to 9 months).

Edited May 19 by DFA_Thump

May 19

We are more in the end of the wipe than in the begining.
Thus some people assume the wipe is near and thus don't give a damn about their scav rep anymore.

2 weeks ago, scav on scav violence was minimal, so the different actions BSG took to reduce it work imo.

But again, the wipe system kind of break some of the functionalities, because there's and "end"

With the more or less recent news, some people think that wipe might be a bit longer than the 6 months average though (I personnaly hope so because I'm about to start Lightkeeper quest line :p)

3.2k · May 19

If and when they increase the map/raid entity count of players and scavs then the scav on scav violence *may* reduce - solely because if you go rogue there may be other scav NPC's around to put one in your head.

You'd have to pick your voilent times carefully - but that's a long way off yet.

May 20

Im pretty sure most of them scavs are kinda new and just fire on sight since the game explains nothing. Just got killed by a scav on customs at a place a player with knowledege wouldnt mind and yesterday a lvl 13 player killed me on his scavrun.

May 21

The mechanics of the game (scav karma) will need to change in order for the amount of scav on scav violence to diminish. As long as the decision is in the hands of the players, it will never end. And that's kind of the point, since this game is meant to be brutal at virtually every turn. That being said, I'm also displeased with the situation. Brutal is one thing, but significantly less fun is quite another. Playing as a scav offers an alternative approach to the game, to the extent that it functions almost as a minigame within the overall main game. I like running around without having to worry about AI aggro, having nothing to lose, and taking absurd risks that I would rarely ever take with my PMC. It's a lot less fun knowing that there are players who ignore all of that and just kill on sight with reckless abandon, scav or not. Occasionally would be one thing, but it happens far too often for my taste. There will always be people who don't care about the repercussions, as well as psychopaths and losers who get off on the feeling of screwing someone over, so it will always be present to some degree. However, if scav karma loss made a more significant difference to the people who choose to ignore it, then they would have more incentive to be nicer to their fellow scavs. Does BSG want this? Who knows.

Personally, I'd like to see the non-hostile player scav who is killed by a hostile player scav gain karma. Don't just take it away from the guy who plays dirty, give it back to the scav who got their time stolen. Especially since the scav cooldown timer got bumped up. If BSG doesn't want to take the time to make improvements to scav karma, they should just remove it altogether. It currently benefits the kos player much, much more more than it does the friendly scav.

May 22

4 hours ago, FlthyStnknMutie said:

If BSG doesn't want to take the time to make improvements to scav karma, they should just remove it altogether. It currently benefits the kos player much, much more more than it does the friendly scav.

Nope, it does not. Please provide a screenshot of both your pmc overall status, where you can and should kos and your scav overall status where you should be friendly. You are writing with such conviction that I bet you have better survival rate at your pmc. I'm posting my scav status below, please post your pmc.

But I agree, scav karma should be removed as it's just free money.

May 22

16 hours ago, FlthyStnknMutie said:

Personally, I'd like to see the non-hostile player scav who is killed by a hostile player scav gain karma. Don't just take it away from the guy who plays dirty, give it back to the scav who got their time stolen. Especially since the scav cooldown timer got bumped up. If BSG doesn't want to take the time to make improvements to scav karma, they should just remove it altogether. It currently benefits the kos player much, much more more than it does the friendly scav.

I like the idea, but if increasing karma sounds too much for some people, what about having the possibility to scav again instantly if killed by a scav player without good reason (no timer)?

May 23

On 5/21/2023 at 11:23 PM, RaffaelCoelho said:

Nope, it does not. Please provide a screenshot of both your pmc overall status, where you can and should kos and your scav overall status where you should be friendly. You are writing with such conviction that I bet you have better survival rate at your pmc. I'm posting my scav status below, please post your pmc.

I'll have to take a peek at that when I get home just to see the stats since I've never looked at my scav status screen, but I'm not sure what comparing that data has to do with who benefits more from the scav karma system. So what if I survive more or less with my scav than with my pmc? That won't change the fact that players who choose to ignore scav karma and kos as their scav have less to risk than those who play their scav as a friendly.

The kos scav doesn't care about scav karma nor any of the consequences of losing it, e.g. scav cooldown timer, hostility of AI when playing as a scav, etc. Therefore, he can do scav on scav violence with reckless abandon and never skip a beat in playstyle as he just kills everything that moves, effectively ignoring scav karma altogether. It doesn't affect him. He loots and shoots, business as usual, no matter how much his scav karma gets reduced. The friendly scav wants the benefits of scav karma and therefore has to take those extra seconds or microseconds that it usually takes to verify the identity of another in-game model before engaging to make sure that it isn't another scav. Those extra moments of risk often cost him his poor, pathetic scav life as well as all the loot that he had or could have acquired, and he gains absolutely nothing from it, the equivalent of time squandered. The kos scav has no risk to take where the friendly scav shoulders all of it. In this way, the kos scav benefits more from the current scav karma system.

Maybe BSG intends this since the game is supposed to be brutal and stressful, but if part of the point of scav karma is to encourage player scavs to work together, they've got a real contradiction in gameplay mechanics happening. And if the friendly scav would gain karma when killed by a kos scav like I mentioned in my previous post, I think it would balance out the situation well enough to justify keeping the scav karma system otherwise unchanged.

May 23

23 hours ago, Andronome said:

I like the idea, but if increasing karma sounds too much for some people, what about having the possibility to scav again instantly if killed by a scav player without good reason (no timer)?

I like that idea, and I think that is the minimum that should be done. Unless there is some issue with server load impact or something else, I would even like to see that taken a step further. If you die as a scav, your cooldown timer doesn't start. It only starts after you survive a scav run. Maybe making both of these changes would be too much, maybe not. If so, I'd be fine with either one being implemented.

Edited May 23 by FlthyStnknMutie

3.2k · May 23

On 5/22/2023 at 5:14 PM, Andronome said:

I like the idea, but if increasing karma sounds too much for some people, what about having the possibility to scav again instantly if killed by a scav player without good reason (no timer)?

The one issue with that is there is no way to decide what that good reason is. There are plenty of theories thrown about for a long time on how to handle it but none are realistically able to be implimented for various reasons.

Regardless of the other scav's intentions I may end up killing them if:

They act suspicious.
They act aggressively.
They shoot at me first but miss (I'll just kill them regardless of the hit it takes on my karma).
I make a mistake and presume they're a PMC.

That's just to name a few, all of them are good reasons to kill the other scav so why should I get punished if a scav doesn't stop pointing their gun in my face as in reality I have about a half a second to act if I deem it necessary or I'm the one dead.

It's a difficult one which I don't think we've ever managed to solve as a community.

The flip side is, why don't we just accept that it's part of the game and build our enjoyment around it? It wasn't mean't to be the main selling point anyway, that's our PMC.

May 24

vor 14 Stunden schrieb Vodor:

They act suspicious.

They act aggressively.

They shoot at me first but miss (I'll just kill them regardless of the hit it takes on my karma).

I make a mistake and presume they're a PMC.

You kill me because you think i am "suspicious" and i did nothing. You should be banned from Scav for 2h and i can join instantly again.

You kill me because you think i am acting "aggressively" and i did nothing. You should be banned from Scav for 2h and i can join instantly again.

3rd point nothing wrong with, but would be harder to detect. But i think very few will attack if they know they´ll be banned 2h.

You kill me because you think i am a "pmc" and i did nothing. You should be banned from Scav for 2h and i can join instantly again.

Yep. Its that easy. The one who takes action should be punished, not the one who does nothing.

Edited May 24 by ex0rzzl

3.2k · May 24

8 hours ago, ex0rzzl said:

You kill me because you think i am "suspicious" and i did nothing. You should be banned from Scav for 2h and i can join instantly again.

Absolutely I will, if you follow me about, constantly pointing your gun at me then I'm getting vibes you're going to 'off me, so I'll get there first. Bear in mind this is specifically for doing something suspicious where I fear my life might be in danger.

I'm not going to shoot you if you're standing facing a wall singing a song about how you love fish, which is also suspicious.

8 hours ago, ex0rzzl said:

You kill me because you think i am acting "aggressively" and i did nothing. You should be banned from Scav for 2h and i can join instantly again.

Absolutely I will, I'm not going to have someone harrasing or being agressive at me, one bullet solves that. I don't play the game for other peoples entertainment.

8 hours ago, ex0rzzl said:

You kill me because you think i am a "pmc" and i did nothing. You should be banned from Scav for 2h and i can join instantly again.

You might want to take into account that I said "I make a mistake" being that I don't deliberately shoot you, but I will shoot you if I think you're a PMC, because no PMC is going to let me live. You could be innocent and looted one, but you're dressed like one and anyone who looks like a PMC usually ends up shooting me, so yeah, if I mistake you for one that I'm putting you 6 foot under first.

8 hours ago, ex0rzzl said:

Yep. Its that easy. The one who takes action should be punished, not the one who does nothing.

If by doing nothing also includes not taking care of yourself, or being aware of your surroundings and other players intentions then why not get punished. This isn't a walk in the park game, you can't just waltz into a raid and expect everything handed to you.

So I should not be punished for making sure I stay alive and get out with loot - which I kindly remind you is the whole point of the game.

May 25

vor 14 Stunden schrieb Vodor:

If by doing nothing also includes not taking care of yourself, or being aware of your surroundings and other players intentions then why not get punished.

Because 99% of the time when i do a Scav raid i die because i got shot in the back for having a better backpack than the other scav and acting friendly. You kill me, you get banned for 2h and i join instantly. Thats it.

And the 2h/instant join ist just my lowest suggestion for a solution. I could go on and on with punishment ideas for scavs hunting scavs. Like after your 2h ban you kill me again you get 4h. Or you will not be able to take the loot of a friendly scav (so the jealousy kills like "oh he got a backpack i kill him" would stop).

I also would like to have a kind of Buff/debuff system.

Lets name it "Scav Personality 0.0"

if you kill me, you get a penalty of 0.3 so you are debuffed for all further scav raids. Being -0.3 means all AI scavs attack you and you are laughing like crazy and you cant stop your loud vocals. anybody can kill you without penalty. The only way to get back to 0.0 is to extract which gives you +0.1. Would be intresting, because then you are the hunted and wouldnt this be a hardcore situatuion in a hardcore game? To me at least more hardcore as shooting a guy in the back without any noteworthy penalty.

vor 15 Stunden schrieb Vodor:

So I should not be punished for making sure I stay alive and get out with loot - which I kindly remind you is the whole point of the game.

You dont get punished for making sure you stay alive. You will be punished for randomly killing other player scavs, who did nothing. and thats my point you are ignoreing. I have very good scav raids, talking to others, trading stuff that is looked for hunting pmc together and so on...

The punishment im talking about would mostly affect the kill on sight guys and not you. If you want to be a guy like that, you should have some kind of penalty. and the scav karma just tells us, there is a good scav/bad scav system. but as implemented as now, it just does nothing.

and by the way: a KOS dude attacking me instantly. Misses all of his shots. Now i kill him because i am better at shooting than he is. Not because i want to, but i have to. Then i get the karma punishment, which is ridiculous.

1.8k · May 25

26 minutes ago, ex0rzzl said:

Because 99% of the time when i do a Scav raid i die because i got shot

If that is the case then YOU are doing something to provoke people. I went the entire last wipe and died less than 5 times to other scavs.

May 25

vor 3 Minuten schrieb Fly_Guy8791:

If that is the case then YOU are doing something to provoke people. I went the entire last wipe and died less than 5 times to other scavs.

omg. i guess me spawing as scav is a sufficient provokation for some players. i never provoke people.

and i said "99% of the time i die". not "i die 99% of my scav raids". i actually dont die often as a scav. and i dont mind dying. i mind there is no useful panalty. and thats what im talking about. i can understand if you dont get it.

but nice try to reverse victim roles.

3.2k · May 25

2 hours ago, ex0rzzl said:

Because 99% of the time when i do a Scav raid i die because i got shot in the back for having a better backpack than the other scav and acting friendly. You kill me, you get banned for 2h and i join instantly. Thats it.

It sounds like you're having a bad experience, and some players do. But we're not all bad. If you're getting shot constantly then perhaps you are doing something out of the ordinary? It doesn't necessarily mean you're doing it deliberatly, you could be doing movements like a PMC, looted stuff that someone else wanted to loot (they'll kill you to see what you got), or just getting some bad luck.

Quite honestly, shooting you for a bigger backpack isn't the worst thing out there. If I know of something high value in the map that I can't pick up but you can, I might shoot you too.

Bear in mind the reasons behind why I kill other players don't happen every raid - I actually can't remmeber the last time I killed another player scav. But they still incredibly valid reasons to why I will kill someone and I should not be punished for that.

2 hours ago, ex0rzzl said:

You dont get punished for making sure you stay alive. You will be punished for randomly killing other player scavs, who did nothing. and thats my point you are ignoreing. I have very good scav raids, talking to others, trading stuff that is looked for hunting pmc together and so on...

I am not ignoring it because I don't shoot people randomly or for no reason, I can't speak for others as I was only indicating why I would shoot another scav which is directly linked to why I shouldn't be punished for it.

That's the whole thread topic - the punishment side of it which I have stated many reasons why it won't work because there are many reasons why I might shoot another scav FIRST.

2 hours ago, ex0rzzl said:

The punishment im talking about would mostly affect the kill on sight guys and not you

Thing is though, it would affect me, that's why I'm getting involved in the topic in the first place. This also ties in to the next quote below.

Basically there is no way to differentiate a hostile killing with a life preserving defensive kill which means I would get caught up in this proposed punishment.

2 hours ago, ex0rzzl said:

and by the way: a KOS dude attacking me instantly. Misses all of his shots. Now i kill him because i am better at shooting than he is. Not because i want to, but i have to. Then i get the karma punishment, which is ridiculous.

So this is one of the floating issues that no one in the community can come up with a solution to. It happens, it sucks, but we don't have a solution to it. Some people deliberately bait others to shoot them first so they get bad karma, then they finish the job and get good karma from it.

This is also one of the points I stated that if they do that to me, I'll put them down immediately and take the karma hit so they are no longer a threat and they don't benefit out of it. Consider it a lesson dealt to a bully.

--

Now another reason that might help you see my side of the story is this, but don't take this the wrong way it's not to paint me in a bad light at all.

I am not bothered that much about scav karma, as long as I maintain a positive one (around 2.x at the moment) then I don't get agro from other scavs, I get a few extra exits and that's about it. I don't care for gear, I don't care for extra fence stuff.

Thats why I'll kill another scav if I feel the necessity because the rep hit doesn't change my overall stance, but it does preseve my raid so I can get out alive.

In no way do I kill another player scav out of simple bloodlust, there has to be a valid reason for it regardless of the other player scavs actual intentions, it's all about the vibe I get from them.

Edited May 25 by Vodor
spelling

1.8k · May 25

7 hours ago, ex0rzzl said:

Because 99% of the time when i do a Scav raid i die because i got shot in the back for having a better backpack than the other scav and acting friendly.

No, what you said was this quote.

Meaning in basic english: YOU DIE 99% OF THE TIME you do a scav run.

Listen I understand that you are being hyperbolic. But your statement is what it is.

7 hours ago, ex0rzzl said:

but nice try to reverse victim roles.

Nice try at a strawman

May 25

vor 5 Stunden schrieb Fly_Guy8791:

Meaning in basic english: YOU DIE 99% OF THE TIME you do a scav run.

in my head it sounds a bit different, but im not a native speaker

vor 11 Stunden schrieb Vodor:

It sounds like you're having a bad experience,

No. My expierience is very well. and i dont do much scav runs. there are lots situations where i would shoot another scav. so i did. but only because i knew there is no punishment. if there was, all of that situations would have gone in an absolute other direction. and i think this shouldnt be the way it is.

On the other hand, there would only be one solution. remove every penalty. and if i kill a scav, only AI scavs in sight would attack. but then it would trivialize a scav run. if i want to kill everythink, i go pmc...

vor 11 Stunden schrieb Vodor:

So this is one of the floating issues that no one in the community can come up with a solution to.

I think it would be possible. MMO games have mechanics like "being in fight", which happens if you are attacked by a player or AI even if you dont fight them, just because of aggro range.

So, if the game can detect in which direction you shoot, it can be able do give me a debuff. Something that triggers me "in fight". While under the "in fight" debuff i can kill the one who shot me but missed without penalty. this would even allow larger scav fights. would be fun to me.

vor 11 Stunden schrieb Vodor:

In no way do I kill another player scav out of simple bloodlust, there has to be a valid reason for it regardless of the other player scavs actual intentions, it's all about the vibe I get from them.

But that is happening. And this is what should be punished the most.

3.2k · May 26

7 hours ago, ex0rzzl said:

No. My expierience is very well. and i dont do much scav runs. there are lots situations where i would shoot another scav. so i did. but only because i knew there is no punishment. if there was, all of that situations would have gone in an absolute other direction. and i think this shouldnt be the way it is.

I understand that now, as Fly said what you wrote earlier gave of a very different impression.

7 hours ago, ex0rzzl said:

On the other hand, there would only be one solution. remove every penalty. and if i kill a scav, only AI scavs in sight would attack. but then it would trivialize a scav run. if i want to kill everythink, i go pmc...

This is exactly how it was prior to scav karma. If you played a long time ago there was no penaly and we used to kill other AI scavs for their gear or just extra money all the time. Including other player scavs. There was no voip or friendly status like there is now so it's actually much better today than it was a few years ago.

7 hours ago, ex0rzzl said:

I think it would be possible. MMO games have mechanics like "being in fight", which happens if you are attacked by a player or AI even if you dont fight them, just because of aggro range.

So, if the game can detect in which direction you shoot, it can be able do give me a debuff. Something that triggers me "in fight". While under the "in fight" debuff i can kill the one who shot me but missed without penalty. this would even allow larger scav fights. would be fun to me.

Many people have come up with ideas of this and very similar, the issue is there are many situations where that might happen by accident. Such as shooting accross a friendly scav to hit a PMC ,or other agressive player scav. And that makes it worse if AI scav are nearby as they would then tag you as aggressive and shoot you too. Again, not really your fault so why should you be punished.

I kid you not, the community have come up with many ideas over the last couple of years and while some are good ideas they don't work in a Tarkov environment.

7 hours ago, ex0rzzl said:

But that is happening. And this is what should be punished the most.

Yes it is happening, and we're stuck with it because there is no solution currently Plus, no one is really sure it happens that often. We get posts saying it happens every raid, we get posts saying it hardly ever happens. All from people who play a lot.

One of the only ways we'll ever get some numbers is if BSG publish some statistics.

Actually thinking about it, the issue might just be a misunderstanding of scav karma. We've had posts thinking it was there to prevent the scav on scav violence but really it wasn't. It was put in and left for players to choose how they want to play as a scav, giving benefits or penalties to long term gameplay. Never mean't to stop people shooting others.

May 26

vor 1 Stunde schrieb Vodor:

Many people have come up with ideas of this and very similar, the issue is there are many situations where that might happen by accident. Such as shooting accross a friendly scav to hit a PMC ,or other agressive player scav. And that makes it worse if AI scav are nearby as they would then tag you as aggressive and shoot you too. Again, not really your fault so why should you be punished.

The way i described it would work around this well. Being "infight" is not a disadvantage. if you kill someone you shouldnt, because of being accidentaly shot, you wont get a penalty. if it was on purpose, you wont get penatly either. win win.

vor 1 Stunde schrieb Vodor:

Actually thinking about it, the issue might just be a misunderstanding of scav karma. We've had posts thinking it was there to prevent the scav on scav violence but really it wasn't. It was put in and left for players to choose how they want to play as a scav, giving benefits or penalties to long term gameplay. Never mean't to stop people shooting others.

I dont want it to stop shooting others. Buf if shot, because intentionally wanting to be a jerk, then ok you can be one, but it should punish you more than the dead friendly scav you will loot the pilgrim from. if scavs sould shoot scavs, why AI is never attacking (except bosses etc)? If you join as pmc, everything that moves is the enemy. Not so if a scav.

And i agree with lots of things you say, but i still try to view it from another angle. This game is hardcore. Death is the final punishment. But as it is now, i just kill the dude next to me, because he is dead and i live. Nothing happens to me, and he has to wait XX:XXmin to join in again if he wants to.

I still think, the crazy laughing scav and the reduced/instant join again would be good. then someone might think "ok i got suckerpunched again, but hey at least i can try again instantly"...

vor 1 Stunde schrieb Vodor:

Yes it is happening, and we're stuck with it because there is no solution currently Plus, no one is really sure it happens that often. We get posts saying it happens every raid, we get posts saying it hardly ever happens. All from people who play a lot.

I got points for killing "traitor scav" this week two times. and i got shot three times directly after spawn i think. Its like cheaters. Some people saying "i never ran into cheaters" others say "i get cheated every second raid".

Sometimes its just the personal view. Imagine you could really have killed me one time because i ran past you looting someone, not even noticing you were a playerscav. i always run past ai scavs, why shouldnt i? but you thought i "was acting suspicious" So then im dead and did nothing. and you got what? right. no real penalty at all. So it would be better if i just kill you right away. but why? you did nothing. vicious circle.